What is the heaviest bullet weight in a "typical" and still handle-able caliber that can be fired accurately? I know .45-70 can get up to like 600 grains, are there any 1000+ grain bullets that wont obliterate your shoulder but still go fast enough to kill something?
>>64334560700-800 depending on rifle weight and powder column. Most dangerous big game safari guns are chambered for cartridges launching 450-650 grains, sometimes more. .50bmg shoots up to 800 grains. That Lynx thing dampens the recoil by using a long recoil action that dramatically lengthens the impulse. The action and rifle weight definitely has an effect. But practically, yeah, 500-600 is about it. A .505 Gibbs launching a 600 grains Woodleigh hydro is about the most a well built man can reasonably handle for a few shots
>>643345601000g at 2000fps 700ne is doable out of a heavy double as long as you are a bigger guy. People love to exaggerate the recoil. Its one hell of a push, its not a violent crack like a big high velocity magnum.
You can get 500 mag in 700 grain bullets, and TII who do the 500 bushwacker will share load data for a 700 grain load. But realistically 400–500 is the max that’s really useful for hunting. The 700 grain rounds are just for the novelty of it…. This is a 600 gn 500 mag round in high speed… first shot without the brake in a 10 inch BFR second shot with…. Gets a touch over 1500 fps out of the 10 inch barrel
>>64334560Sir Samuel White Baker used a 2-Bore rifle that fired a 1/2lb explosive shell to hunt elephants in the 1860s. From his memoir:Among other weapons, I had an extraordinary rifle that carried a half-pound percussion shell—this instrument of torture to the hunter was not sufficiently heavy for the weight of the projectile; it only weighed twenty pounds: thus, with a charge of ten drachms [270 grains] of powder, behind a half-pound shell, the recoil was so terrific, that I spun around like a weathercock in a hurricane. I really dreaded my own rifle, although I had been accustomed to heavy charges of powder, and severe recoil for some years. None of my men could fire it, and it was looked upon with a species of awe, and it was named "Jenna-El-Mootfah" (Child of a Cannon) by the Arabs, which being far too long a name for practice, I christened it the "Baby;" and the scream of this "Baby" loaded with a half-pound shell was always fatal. It was far too severe, and I very seldom fired it, but it is a curious fact, that I never fired a shot with that rifle without bagging: the entire practice, during several years, was confined to about twenty shots. I was afraid to use it; but now and then it was absolutely necessary that it should be cleaned, after months of staying loaded. On such occasions my men had the gratification of firing it, and the explosion was always accompanied by two men falling on their backs (one having propped up the shooter), and the "Baby" flying some yards behind them. This rifle was made by Holland & Holland, of Bond Street, and I could highly recommend it for the Goliath of Gath, but not for the men of A.D. 1866.
3500 grains is possible. It won't kill you, but you might regret it.>Among other weapons, I had an extraordinary rifle that carried a half-pound percussion shell—this instrument of torture to the hunter was not sufficiently heavy for the weight of the projectile; it only weighed twenty pounds: thus, with a charge of ten drachms [270 grains] of powder, behind a half-pound shell, the recoil was so terrific, that I spun around like a weathercock in a hurricane. I really dreaded my own rifle, although I had been accustomed to heavy charges of powder, and severe recoil for some years. None of my men could fire it, and it was looked upon with a species of awe, and it was named "Jenna-El-Mootfah" (Child of a Cannon) by the Arabs, which being far too long a name for practice, I christened it the "Baby;" and the scream of this "Baby" loaded with a half-pound shell was always fatal. It was far too severe, and I very seldom fired it, but it is a curious fact, that I never fired a shot with that rifle without bagging: the entire practice, during several years, was confined to about twenty shots. I was afraid to use it; but now and then it was absolutely necessary that it should be cleaned, after months of staying loaded. On such occasions my men had the gratification of firing it, and the explosion was always accompanied by two men falling on their backs (one having propped up the shooter), and the "Baby" flying some yards behind them. This rifle was made by Holland & Holland, of Bond Street, and I could highly recommend it for the Goliath of Gath, but not for the men of A.D. 1866.>Sir Samuel White Baker, The Albert N'Yanza, Great Basin Of The Nile, p. 138, Macmillan, 1866
>>64334631>But realistically 400–500 is the max that’s really useful for hunting.This, really. People, myself included, love to talk about the huge meme calibers but those are rare novelties. Back in the day the .600 Nitro Express was considered overkill even by professional hunters and despite its legendary meme status very very few were ever made. A 2-bore is incredibly rare. Now 8-bores were pretty common for dangerous game hunting in the black powder days, they fired either a ~900 grain round ball or a conical slug around 1200-1500 grains, which may have been explosive or perhaps iron-tipped.For over a century now the most common dangerous-game loads have been 400-500 grains going about 2200 fps, or something real close to that.
>>64334641Everything about African hunting was sensationalized for the American and European consumer. The same way a couple of kids talk in front of others after they first shoot a 12 gauge.
>>64334560Do you think 40mm to the torsal would be safe?
>>64334983Depends on if you're in the minimum arming distance or not
>>64334560Have you heard of the .950 JDJ? a 24 mm 3,600-grain rifle cartridge made just to prove a point.
>>64334829A 12ga throws a 1oz lead slug, and a 2 bore rifle throws a 16oz explosive shell. Seems like you're some sort of retard.
>>64334631Can a BFR be two handed shot like a cowboy?
>>64335837It’s a two handed grip in the clip… I’ve shot it one handed but be aware it rises at an angle when you do that due to the force of imparting spin on the bullet…. If you mean can it be “fanned” and rapid fired by palming the hammer… I haven’t tried and doubt you could do it with the heavy recoiling stuff any faster than just cocking it while getting it back on target..
>>64334829I don't know, man. 2 bore is a big round.>according to wikipedia, where I found the pic, baker had a 3 bore, not a 2 bore>that's still fucking huge though
>>64335850Forgive, only ask as though Rolands guns are fitted to .45's, they look like BFRs. And fuck you, it's the one good thing the dipshit wrote.
>>64335952Fair enough. I got curious, and provided you start with it cocked and hold the trigger back after first firing you can fan a BFR action…. Not sure how well it’ll stand up in the long run to that.. also 45lc is a few orders of magnitude down from even 500 mag… if you get a BFR, even a short cylinder one in it I suspect it’s gonna feel like a popgun with normal 45lc and I doubt +p 45lc is gonna kick too much out of it.. that’s just a lot of weight dampening the recoil…. My experience is somewhat biased since I’ve only shot one in fuckhuge calibers… pic related.
>>64334829No doubt there is a lot of sensationalism, but his claims about that recoil are believable and we can easily verify them with math.We known the projectile weight as 3500 grains and the gun weighs 20 lbs. We also know the charge weight. We don't know the velocity, but even if we make a very conservative estimate like 1000 fps we still get over 370 ft-lb of recoil. By comparison, a .600 Nitro Express is about 150 ft-lb, and a middle-of-the-road 12ga load is 25. Is Baker exaggerating when he said it "spun him around like a weathercock"? Maybe. But I don't think he's making up bullshit to be sensationalist, the numbers back up his claims.
>>64334641You ever read that book? He gives a lot of interesting accounts:>The best and only really great elephant-hunters of the White Nile are the Bagara Arabs, on about the 13° N. lat. These men hunt on horseback, and kill the elephant in fair fight with their spears.>The lance is about fourteen feet long, of malebamboo; the blade is about fourteen inches long by nearly three inches broad ; this is as sharp as a razor. Two men, thus armed and mounted, form the hunting party. Should they discover a herd, they ride up to the finest tusker and single him from the others. One man now leads the way, and the elephant, finding himself pressed, immediately charges the horse. There is much art required in leading the elephant, who follows the horse with great determination, and the rider adapts his pace so as to keep his horse so near the elephant that his attention is entirely absorbed with the hope of catching him. The other hunter should by this time have followed close to the elephant’s heels, and, dismounting when at full gallop with wonderful dexterity, he plunges his spear with both hands into the elephant about two feet below the junction of the tail, and with all his force he drives the spear about eight feet into his abdomen, and withdraws it immediately. Should he be successful in his stab, he remounts his horse and flies, or does his best to escape on foot, should he not have time to mount, as the elephant generally turns to pursue him. His comrade immediately turns his horse, and, dashing at the elephant, in his turn dismounts, and drives his lance deep into his intestines.>Generally, if the first thrust is scientifically given, the bowels protrude to such an extent that the elephant is at once disabled. Two good hunters will frequently kill several out of one herd; but in this dangerous hand-to-hand fight the hunter is often the victim.
>>64334560Why? The only reason to go for the heaviest possible bullet option is to suppress a subsonic round while still being proper killy and beyond 45-70 there isn’t really any advantage. Like subsonic 50BMG has about the same muzzle energy as black powder 45-70 did in the 1870s. You can get massive bore black powder guns that shoot a huge chunk of lead, but you specified “typical” in the OP and every retard itt glossed right over that.
>>64334560>are there any 1000+ grain bullets that wont obliterate your shoulder but still go fast enough to kill something?8-bore>By the 19th century, the giant 4 bore had been established as the standard elephant gun amongst European settlers and explorers within Africa, whilst the 8 bore was considered the standard for all other dangerous game. Typical 8 bores weighed 15 to 16 lb (6.8 to 7.3 kg), and fired a 1,250 gr (81 g) conical bullet at around 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) or an 860 gr (56 g) spherical ball at around 1,650 ft/s (500 m/s), both with 10 to 12 drams (17.72 to 21.26 g) of black powder, although sometimes heavier charges of 14 drams (24.82 g) were used, generally in Africa.
>>64337576This guy is a lying retard who was obviously the forefront of his eras sensationalism. Obviously people are still slurping up his bullshit as some faggot on this thread just tried to mathlete recoil because obviously he has never had the opportunity to shoot the African calibers and rifles. I have, and know better. As far as the "best" elephant hunters i start off with his "fair fight" comment. Bullshit. As anyone who has ever seen the reaction of an elephant to a group of men on horses will tell you. Calling it fair is a plea to the reader that his experience is somehow the right one. The "best" elephant hunters used giant metal dart looking objects. Hundreds of pounds. They were hoisted above (yes ewok style) and dropped straight down into the elephant when it tripped the rope. Elephant were funneled into narrow pathways and even deadfalls by the best elephant hunting tribes. Hunting elephant on horseback with spears was the works of hands on head retarded tribesmen. Everything this asshat says runs contrary to the writings of men like Sellious, Bell and Taylor. The first two being men who had no need to embellish and the evidence to back up all claims. Taylor was a weird fucker but he was there and downplayed some big events so I'll give him the benefit of a doubt.
>>64337773Several reputable hunters that spanned the end of that era and into the late 1800s early 1900s would talk about finding those lead balls still in elephant they took later. Before WDM Bell a lot of the sensationalism hunters in Africa were actually fucking retarded. They would fire wildly anywhere on the elephant over and over hoping it would go down. Even those who were taking heart shots often either never reached or didn't realize when you have a heart the size of a smart car even a human fist size hole won't stop you let alone a bullet size one.
>>64337576I read it about 25 years ago in high school. I was obsessed with dangerous game hunting, read everything I could get my hands on about the old days in Africa and India. I was impressed by his account of the Arabs. There was another author, possibly his contemporary, or a few years later, who wrote about how the local Africans would kill an elephant by positioning a spear made from a section of railroad track in a tree above a trail and waiting for an elephant to pass underneath. Apparently they would camp in the tree for days waiting for the perfect opportunity.
One of the board of advisors guys for trijicon who is also a famous hunter comes to a local church and they showed some footage of them firing elephant guns like 22s There is a lot of misconceptions with 12 gauge and elephant guns
>>64337576They shoved a big pole up his ass?
>>64335952We were cheated on the film. But then again, its something that can't be filmed.
>wont obliterate your shouldersJust establish a maximum amount of acceptable recoil energy, then, using the weight of the gun, figure out the max bullet momentum and you can figure out the max velocity for a given grain weight that is still within allowable recoil range.All that said, the heaviest possible bullet is gonna be a super long 50 cal. So maybe 510 whisper. I’ve never shot one but from footage I’ve seen, the recoil does not seem excessive at all. Your shoulder will remain intact. Not sure where you’d find 1000+ grain bullets though. I know some exist but they’re real fancy and expensive tungsten core bullets.Vidrel, 510 whisper.https://youtu.be/CelM9DsdHos?si=fsftXbgQzg8mh7FK
>>64338552The conversation wasn't about the capabilities or marksmanship of the hunters. It was>are there any 1000+ grain bullets that wont obliterate your shoulder but still go fast enough to kill something?And those old guns could and did kill "dangerous game". Plus, I'm sure idiots with modern ammunition still wound their quarry through incompetence, and leave fragments or entire bullets in them.But other than that, thank you for your input, it contributed precisely nothing to the topic.
>>64335498OP did specify that the gun should not obliterate one’s shoulder, so that precludes 950JDJ (and the nitro express cartridges other anons have brought up)
>>64341268>Just establish a maximum amount of acceptable recoil energy, then, using the weight of the gun, figure out the max bullet momentum and you can figure out the max velocity for a given grain weight that is still within allowable recoil range.No. The problem is not velocity and momentum - it's the mass of the projectile and the acceleration - F=ma. So you also need to figure in the length of the barrel and the speed of the powder (which gives you the rate of change of pressure)
>>64341274Nitro express was regularly shot by people who still had two functioning shoulders
>>64341277Wouldn’t peak acceleration just scale with max pressure, and projectile momentum scale with it?>>64341283I don’t think OP meant “literally rip off your shoulder” when he said “obliterate”
