Is this another Russian red line or are tomahawks an actual game changer for Ukraine?
both
>>64334838yes
>>64334838Doesn't matter, orange man bad will just deny them use against Russian soil. Use flamingos and other locally developed crap instead.
>>64334856Trump is annoyed with jewtin, at this point he wants the Ukrainians to fuck russia's shit up.
>>64334838Didn't they say they wouldn't change the war according to Peskov or whatever government official? If they won't change the outcome, then what harm is there in sending them?
>Guy Faoulconbridge
>>64334838Putin's final warning strikes again!
>>64334838>red lineNah>game changerNah>Increase Vatnik seething Yes
>>64334838>are tomahawks an actual game changer for UkraineAt this point in the war no. In year 1, in sizable numbers, yes it would have been a very big deal and might have changed the course of things for Ukraine to suddenly have ultra long range precision strike capability. They could have hit Russia very hard and nailed a lot of strategic assets long before the war economy and mass drone production and so on had time to ramp up. Combined with other ground forces that could have enabled a big push to actually work.But Ukraine now has their own long range strike capabilities they've been forced to develop. Tomahawks would only be helpful if they could be supplied in huge numbers, hundreds to thousands. The US simply can't. I don't mean "doesn't want to", I mean we have fucked up big time on production with years and years and years of going back and forth on targets and orders and multiple administrations and Congress pissing around, same as so many other systems. Result being production capacity has atrophied, and we have burned a ton of them in the middle east too. That'll take years to build back up if we decided to but there is no sign of us deciding to in a robust way, and that's probably impossible under Trump too. Can't cheat on this sort of thing.I'm sure Ukraine would welcome the gesture and could put a few dozen missiles to use somewhere, better then nothing, but that's just not enough to make a major difference.
>>64334887Jesus, imagine being married to this titless raging cunt.
>>64334838It's all posturing, Brinksmanship and the Art of the Deal. Easily deciphered, if your not an MSN idiot.
>>64335027Mind using actual words buddy.
>>64334838How the fuck are they even gonna launch Tomahawks? We have like 4 Typhon units total.
>>64335220Ukrainians rigged Buks to fire Sea Sparrow. They can probably do the same with Tomahawks.
>>64334838It's just sound and fury, signifying nothing. Nuking Ukraine never made sense since they want to look like the good guys and they also intend to occupy Ukraine. Doing either of those things is difficult if Ukraine is a nuclear wasteland. Nuking a NATO country would trigger Article 5 and spell the end of Russia permanently (even if Putin survives, and even if America chickened out and refused to honor the alliance, Britain and France would launch enough nukes to turn Moscow and St. Petersburg into radioactive craters). Honestly, now that Flamingos are in play and are domestically produced by the Ukrainians, the Tomahawks are just icing on the cake. I'm glad Trump finally is coming around to treating Putin like the back-stabbing pyscho he is, but the Ukies are on a roll with their Flamingos. Blasting the hell out of their oil and gas supply lines seems like the best way to ensure the economic collapse of the Russian Federation and Russian air defense is so far powerless to stop it. Putin won't launch nukes. He knows he'd be dead, or in a bunker forever if he did. He'll just drag this war out as long as possible and then either get assassinated or hide in a bunker for the rest of his life.
>>64334844I can't believe some black guy stole my bike to distract me from the epstein list
>>64334838>s this another Russian red line Yes, which is to say it's nothing>or are tomahawks an actual game changer for Ukraine?If by 'game changer' you mean 'war winner', no. No one thing ever is.
>>64334838>Don't give them weapons we can't win in a fair fight!-Russians, Chinks, North Koreans, Iranians, etc.Crazy how any of these countries like to pretend they could win a war with the US when us giving their shitty neighbors weapons is considered a deathblow to them.
>>64334838Uh huh
>>64334842fpbp
>>64334838Tomahawks have about 1500 miles of range. Ukraine could hit anything it wants with them. Oil production facility a thousand miles away? Vladimir Putin's third guest house? No problem.
>>64334838>game changerReminder that the current state of the game is that Russia is slowly bleeding out in a futile forever war. Ukraine isn't the side desperately needing game changers.
I thought Tomahawks needed detailed terrain maps for any route they are programmed for. If that's the case, they are of limited utility.On the other hand, Flamingos are using refurbished engines that were junked. So Tomahawks might be used for a very few high priority static targets.Flamingos are currently being stockpiled, but I doubt Tomahawks would be ready before the stockpiled Flamingos are launched.
>>64336200The whole area is completely flat
>>64336216so what
>>64336200topographic maps from the soviet era are out on the market and Ukraine probably has dozens of them laying somewhere in a universities geography department.or you could just make a map with satellites data like most are made today
>>64336180>Ukraine isn't the side desperately needing game changers.No, but they are feeling the cost of being the anvil that Russia is breaking itself on. I'm sure that they'll be glad of anything that speeds up the inevitable conclusion of the war.
>>64336200You mean one of the multiple opensource global coverage elevation datasets we have available since the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission in 2000?
>>64336235Yeah that's definitely true but I still don't really like the 'game changer' framing. They way it has been used implies that there's a tide to turn, and quagmires don't have tides.
>>64336200>I thought Tomahawks needed detailed terrain maps for any route they are programmed for.Yeah, and you can easily buy that data for literally any inch of the world earth from commercial sat companies - if you are authorized to do, which Ukraine is.>If that's the case, they are of limited utility.How, when they have access to mapping sats from NATO militaries and the commercial sector.
>>64334844The recent 180° makes it clear Ukraine's hackers under Budanov got the Epstein list
>>64334838Not a "game changer" as in press to win but a game changer as in increasing the range of missiles available to Ukraine by 5 to 10 times depending on variant.This would let them hit as far as Kazan or even Omsk if it's the long range blocks.
Stretched thin Russian air defenses would have even more to fret about. The German might also feel compelled to hand over some Taurus missiles. More flexibility for the Ukies.
>>64336200>detailed terrain mapsWe have satellite height-mapped the whole world down to ~2cm accuracy, it's not like they need surveyors walking around Russia these days.
>>64334838We're onto Generals cut content now!
>>64334877Until Putin pats him on the head and says he is cool and he might get a peace prize and it's back to it again.
>>64334838They would be able to take out oil refineries for much longer periods, and attack targets deeper inside Russia.>>64335340>even if America chickened out and refused to honor the alliance, Britain and France would launch enough nukes to turn Moscow and St. Petersburg into radioactive cratersDoubt they would do anything without American backing.Russia will be a Nork tier pariah state if they nuked Ukraine willy nilly. Everyone would want nukes once that box is opened.
>>64334838>are tomahawks an actual game changer for Ukraine?Ukraine has been firing at Russia with Storm Shadows and ATACMSs for 1.5 years nowWithout any particular success so no, it's nothingburger
>>64336394>2020 population 44.7m>2024 population 37.8m>already lost 50% of population
>>64336394Meanwhile in Pidorstan:
What would be actually good targets to hit with the tomahawks? More oil/fuel plants? Some war machinery factories? Just wait for couple of months in case russia somehow manages to get sober and do something?
>>64336326Every strategy game should have a command power that's "steal talmudic blackmail" from now on.
>>64336394>says CIA>doesnt post cia qoute, just the headline of a literally who websitevery convincing pidor
>>64334838I doubt they'd get Tomahawks, the senile orange cunt says a lot of shit but rarely does much so you wouldn't bank your offensives or defensive posture on anything he saysOn the hypothetical they did, it would mean they get to really put the boot into things like the nearby oil refineries and power stations that have only really been inappropriately touched in the bum by drones, which does work, but its not the same as a 500 or 1000kg warhead going off in them. Which is essentially the big 'game over' for that particular item that gets hit and if you hit enough of them in a short period of time its fairly catastrophic in terms of repairing everything quick enough.The other thing cruise missiles do better than drones is wiping out things like factories and industrial centresAnything like a drone component factory or fabrication plant will totally get lit the fuck up like nothing else and they can in some ways be harder to replace when it comes to tooling, staff and specialist procedures.Yaroslavl north of Mosquow just got burned down by something, its really fucked and one of their top-5 big refineries
>>64336453>Excluding the occupied territoriesSo you think Russia is geocoding the civilian population in occupied areas? I wouldn't put it past them.
>>64336476>geocodingFucking spell checkGenociding
>>64336453>There are fewer people residing within the state. But how do we account for our refugees, who have fled abroad in the millions? Methodologically, if a person is absent from the country for more than a year, they can be removed from the records.Oh btw, ziggers love to bounce between pretending to be the good guys avoiding civilian casualties, and gloating about genociding them. They're so comically evil you'd think they're written by a hanna barbera cartoonist
>>64336200>If that's the case, they are of limited utility.Why? The whole fucking world has been mapped by satellites many, many times over, just buy some maps.
>>64334844the list isn't going to do it. Mossad having the same files devalues them as an state intelligence asset.you cannot blackmail a stooge two different directions with the same thing.the 2013 Moscow Ritz-Carlton hotel room peepee tape featuring two 13 year-old prostitutes selected(requested) for their similar likeness to Ivanka, however... the FSB has the high card.
>>64334844Checked.
>>64336482They always do that, they throw multiple narratives, often depending on what kind of useful idiot is target of it narrative and some times it's just random
>>64336552>you cannot blackmail a stooge two different directions with the same thing.You absolutely can though?
>>64334838Retard here but how would Ukraine even launch them?I thought tomahawks can only be launched from ships or submarines.
>>64336373it's easy to turn north korea into a pariah state since they don't produce anything of value, it's harder to make india or china care when they can still get cheap fossil fuels
>>64336738India cares because Pakistan has nukes, and China cares because SK, Japan, and maybe even Taiwan are going to make nukes the moment the NPT goes out the window.Nuclear aggression is a genie nobody wants to let out of the bottle, and no amount of cheap fossil fuels is going to change that.
Why are tomahawks such a big thing? Don't they have scalp, etc. already?
>>64336391>ukraine has been firing at russia with those rockets>so a rocket that has 1000-2000km more range wont change a thinglollmao even
>>64336823Frogs and Bongs prolly out of SCALP/Storm Shadows since European artisan production can't keep up with demands.
>>64334890Er, why is Leopards and Abrams there when the country that broke the 'red line' were the Bongs because the Germans had a fucking fit over tanks and the USA said they wouldn't unless Europe did too? Also were is the red line about Storm Shadow/SCALP?
>>64336326Why would it matter when the USA is releasing the lists anyway? Remember when Musk said Trump won't release the list because he's on it and then the list came out a few days ago (well partial list) and Musk was on it?
>>64336696Look up SMRF Typhon
>>64336468The 'CIA' is the 'CIA Factbook' page. Which states Ukraine has the highest date rate. Which isn't particularly odd seeing as they're at war. It's barely higher than Lithuania and Serbia - who are not at war. As for the other 'fact' it states the birth rate is the lowest in the world. Again, they're at war. People not having kids during a war is not an odd thing. Especially when people who could have left and will be having kids elsewhere and won't be recorded in the data.Again it's using information without context. The site is generally unbiased based on websites that rate that kind of thing but there isn't really much bias you can get here. They're stating numbers which are factually correct. The article does actually cover the fact that - surprise - war does not make statistics look good and it goes on to cover how Keynesian economic reforms in Russia are now failing and Russia is high in the 'despair index'.
>>64336899Forgot to add. So if vatniks are using it as a 'gotcha' then it's a really bad example because it shits all over Russia.
>>64336823>scalp is limited to ~250km for export>550km max unlocked>shortest range tomahawk is 1,500km>longest range in 3,000kmIt'll open up a shitload more targets and force Russia to put SAMs around them which means less SAMs on the front possibly allowing Ukie aviation to do more than intercept drones.
>>64334838No, but they're accurate enough to target individual rail bridge pylons.
>>64336476>>64336478The Mass Graves at Mariupol keep growing and growing even two years after the city fell, those bodies are coming from somewhere
>>64337040What the fuck kind of demented narrative are you trying to build now, Alenka? I know they only hire schizos at the glavset but you're seriously pushing it.
>>64335340>NOOKnon-starter, no nukes in any of the frontline oblasts given that fucks the wheat fields and ruins literally any gain russia has made so far.
>>64336552>the 2013 Moscow Ritz-Carlton hotel room peepee tape featuring two 13 year-old prostitutes selected(requested) for their similar likeness to Ivanka, however... the FSB has the high card.Nigga the dossier was invented by /pol/ you fucking tourist
>>64334838reminder they could have struck russia's officials since day 1 but choose not to (anymore) and so new weapons are irrelevant because they continue to choose not to
>>64336856>Germans had a fucking fit over tanks and the USA said they wouldn't unless Europe did tooi think it was the other way around. Abram tanks are less suited for Ukraine than the other tanks.
>>64336343>GeneralsDamn that takes me back. Still a silly fun game, even if EA shot the branding in the foot by insisting they slap "C&C" on it rather then just being a new cool IP.>Tomahawk stormCan see why that was cut though, Scud storm way cooler and that just looks silly in comparison and not unique enough or really get into why they work.
>>64334838idk why but russia has in the past had an irrational assessment of the dangers of glcm but im not sure why they wouldn't have developed countermeasures in the 40+ years since then
>>64337527Mariupol is in Russian controlled territory. The mass graves are for kubiks and genocided eastern Ukrainians.But mostly kubiks.
>>64337777
>>64336419powerplants
>>64334890Aren't we already a step or two up on that chart? Because I thought I saw something about "US giving Ukraine a permission to use their weapons with no restrictions" just this week
I don’t think this war will ever actually end.
>>64335016>implying it's not the crazy/rage that makes the sex good and the homely looks that makes it seem more attainable>implying most of us wouldn't actually hit that with the horny fury of a thousand acne-ridden angsty teenagers going through high-school in a middle sized town>implying it's not that very specific angry cunt face that became one of the most popular faces in home made porn, so much so that she got scared of all the attention and quit
>>64338178>subreddit>zigger projecting about place of originlol>ukraine doesn't have means of delivering tomahawksgee whiz anon, it's not like ukraine hasn't recieved delivery platforms of other missile's it's been given or sold or anything, what a cunundrum.
>>64338178>>64338184Ukraine may be able to turn a military cargo plane into a Tomahawk launcher.
>>64336419>What would be actually good targets to hit with the tomahawks?The rest of russian AA. Despite being old, tomahawks are extremely efficient and russians can't shoot them down, as proven in Syria. So ukies launch tomahawks at the remaining russian AA, then follow up on actual targets with domestic shit. No?
>>64336476Depends on your definition of genocide. There are extrajudicial killings, yes. But what's even worse is the forced population transfers, brainwashing and all that.
>>64338178Ground launched exist also MiG-29 and Su-25 have been modified to carry Hammer bombs and HARMs.>>64338349I consider the stealing of children for "re-education" cultural genocide, not as bad as murderous genocide but still genocide.
>>64335220...you build a little ramp for it and ignite it with a lighter.Was that a trick question?
>>64334838>red lineYeah>game changerIf they get enough of them
>>64334838Unironically this post made me rewatch Redline out of nowhere, thanks OP.
>>64336823I wonder
>>64335340>AlaskaLmaoooo the National Guard could stop them alone
>>64334890The most recent ... should be replaced by "fly a dozen drones into NATO airspace which are promptly shot down and do nothing"
>>64339544why did the range go down so much from block II to block V? did they make it cheaper or lighter or something?
>>64340348The -N stands for "Nuclear", so I assume it was special in several ways
>>64334989Tomahawks have a long range, are more precise, and have a larger payload than what Ukraine is currently fielding. Send a 1000lb'er into the heart of every major Russian refinery followed by one with cluster bomblets, and cluster bomb major oil storage tanks, and you have more damage in a single strike with a few dozen missiles than Ukraine has managed to do with multiple hundreds of strikes. Ukraine is only managing to put refineries out of business for days. The longest was a month I believe. A Tomahawk can make that "years."
>>64338349Can't help but wonder at the varying definitions of "genocide" you see around these days. I was under the impression that any concerted attempt to remove a society/culture by homicide, sterilization, displacement, or replacement qualified as such. Either you're trying to destroy a culture/society or you aren't, cba over the cheeky "im not touching you" level shit as far as what the means are.
>>64340392>Ukraine is only managing to put refineries out of business for days.a piece of shrapnel to the cracking tower and that refinery is FUCKED
>>64338052Good option probably.>>64338345This would be kinda waste I think. They are still limited with range so there are not a lot of options. Also how many AA systems are they left with now?
