5.7 has a niche as a handgun cartridge but out of a PDW .30 carbine is far more effective..30 Carbine penetrating IIIA armor at 200 yardshttps://youtu.be/-SwbWGQ7J78?si=9yzDUuu1WYdxpsFt.30 Carbine penetrating IIIA armor out of a handgunhttps://youtu.be/MlcP8EjfKU4?si=4pOhHGiQRfmQ4E5MInsane ballistics gel performance with specialized ammo and solid performance with standard ammohttps://youtu.be/N4NHSMcnSd8?si=GnTwkEkJwqBXjMXI&t=209Comparable performance to .357 magnumhttps://youtu.be/Q3QsMCs9K1g?si=5OlU82kIJi_TWVvL
>>64335217But muh winter coats. There's no way those marines missed, damned carbines just suck and can't kill a malnourished chinaman
>>64335217.300 Blackout is just a better .30 carbine. Very similar preformance but with better bullet and platform choice.So you're kind of right, but .300 does it all better.
>>64335217>PDWsMeme and I say that as a 5.7 nutswinger. I'd love an MP7 though tbqhwy but I for damn sure wouldn't waste any money on an M1 gaybean.5.7 to me makes the most sense in a pistol as it replaces 9mm, 22wmr rifles, and 22lr subsonic with a round and projectile that exceeds the terminal effectiveness of all 3.
>>64335231I agree, but you're going to be hard pressed to find a 300 Blackout rifle this small and lightweight. Would be even better with the 12 inch advisor model barrel, or better yet, a ground-up modern PDW that doesn't exist yet
>>64335247>hard pressed to find a 300 Blackout rifle this small and lightweight
>>64335217.221 Fireball combines all of the advantages of 5.7 FN and .30 Carbine.
>>64335217I want to see .30 SC with a light projectile loaded as hot as it can handle in a 10" barrel
>>64335258shit edit just to get the point across
>5.56 MARS beats bothBunch of casuals
>>64335286It doesn't preform as well form a short barrel300 gets .30 carbine rifle velocity from a 8 inch barrel
>>64335301I think you're right but I believe you could probably get a .30 carbine system in a similar form factor to the MP7 or that PSA X57 thing and it would be a lot better than 4.6 or 5.7.
>>64335231Yeah, I think 300bo has done more than anything to diminish my former interest in getting a fancier PCC.
>>64335324.300 BLK overall length spec goes all the way down to 1.78", you could fit that in an overgrown MP7.
>>64335217>.30 Carbine is the optimal PDW cartridgethis seems about perfect in 7.62x25, but sliding stock like G3 seems more better and adjustable, so you could still have some stock but be compact, and make the front grip (folding or fixed horz) also a spare mag holder.And fix WTF was making it go rouge and self fire. If The Jews fixed it to make it into the Uzi it couldn't be that hard.
>>64335217A compact 9mm carry gun is the best PDW and I'm tired of pretending it's not
>>64335446The optimal .30 SC PDW already exists, no need to reinvent the wheel.
I'm going to be 100% serious. PDWs are a waste of time and money. Go get a rifle.
I wanna see what 5.7 brass necked up to .30 would look like.
>>64335217wtf is aerodynamics and kinetic energy theoryyy raaaahretard
>>64335217Any weapon is a personal defense weapon if you defend yourself with it. LOL
>>64335483This.
>>64335217Unreliable ammo
In what situation could a <6 lb concealable short barreled rifle with .357 magnum equivalent ballistics EVER be useful? Get real
>>64335217>tfw both of those have been outlasted by 30-30, 357 mag, and 44 maghillbillies stay winning
none of these are even in the same ballpark as the P90 size-wise.
>>64335622why would I use any of those over a glock 19 for personal defense
>>64335643You can feel like retro vidya
>>64335622You're right. They're significantly shorter than the P90
>>64335622But various bullpups are within a few inches. P90 is 19.9", like an SBR X95 is 22.8" or a wlvrn micron is 23.4". Both have longer barrels though, P90 is 10.5", X95 is 13". A 300bo bullpup should be in the ballpark of a P90 for sure.
>>643352179x25 beats it in almost every metric, and fits in a pistol magazine to boot. Now, if you wanted to make the argument that .30 Carbine was the best PDW cartridge of WWII, then we have something to discuss.
>>64335643>insert brass facts civilian PDW concept video
>>64335736I hate how these YouTube niggers redefined the term "PDW."
>>64335217Honestly, I just want a relatively short bottlenecked cartridge shooting a 50 gr or heavier at 2300+ fps from a short barrel. I would take that shit with me to war. Incredibly flat shooting with rifle terminal ballistics up close..22 Spitfire was pretty good, but would be better with a faster powder and more (like twice as much) pressure..224 Boz claimed 50gr @ like 2400 fps from a 5", but I don't habeeb it.
>>64335873How about 50gr at 2700 FPS from a 10" barrel?
>>64335736>>64335746>'civilian pdw'Exactly. just more bullshit fantasy jargon (for gun geeks) to fetishize about
>>64335882But 'Civilian AR-15' isn't?
>>64335878Are you going to suggest some .223 loading, anon? No, it has to be grip mag like an MP7/Sa23 or fit in a P90-style magazine.
>>64335899.221 Fireball is less than a quarter inch longer than 5.7 FN and nearly as powerful as .223 Remington. It's more efficient and has a slightly higher maximum pressure.
>>64335873>.22 Spitfire was pretty goodThis would be my choice. I guess it didn't succeed because .30 carbines and ammo were so cheap in the '60s.
>>64335886AR-15 and PDW are not analogousautomatic rifle and PDW (for example) arealso: (You) are a Brainlet.
>>64336068You are either retarded and or baiting, take my last (You)
>>64336092He's right though. AR-15 is a model, PDW is a role.
>>64336093Has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, the Civilian PDW concept is unironically more practical in a civilian context than an AR-15 ever will be, because the precise second you exit your home open carrying a full size rifle, you are no longer a civilian, you are a combatant.
>>64336097>Contact left! Enemy combatant spotted with a 7.5" AR-15!>Disregard, it was only an MP5, that's a civilian
>>64336097>the precise second you exit your home open carrying a full size rifle, you are no longer a civilian, you are a combatant.Anon, in any combat or self-defense situation, any weapon will make you a combatant; whether you have an RPG or a kitchen knife, you are a combatant.
>>64336097>unironicallyBrainlet verified
>>64336097I can't wait for this fucking war to be over so you retards go back to r/guns.
Good job successfully derailing this thread faggots
>>64336002Sorry for assuming. Yeah, 221 Fireball is a great cartridge, if a bit long. I'm 100% certain you can make something very similar in a shorter form factor now, and with similar performance out of a slightly shorter (8") bbl it would absolutely rock.I think the only auto gun chambered in it was that prototype AimPoint carbine. It was grip-mag too, but the grip was a little oversized.
>>64335882PDWs small enough to be stored in sling bags or backpacks are infinitely more useful to most civilians than building out an AR like a service rifle. If you live really far out in the sticks then that changes things somewhat but if you're anywhere with moderate population density you can't just put on full kit and walk around with a rifle the moment things look a bit sketchy. I'm not saying there will never be a scenario where you might need a "fighting rifle" AR but it should be a lot lower down on your priority list. So much of the preparedness/tactical discussion has been misled by the idea that something is just going to happen overnight that will turn everything into a PVP server. First priority: Very compact carry handgun. Not a riced out glock that requires you wear a massive carry belt and dress like a goober to conceal it, but something you can actually carry unobtrusively everywhere you go. Second priority: bagable PDW you can take with while driving and carry with you when leaving your vehicle. It should also preferably be suppressed and carry an extra mag on the gun. This also works as an HD gun. Also dont be a retard and pick a tactical gun bag in OD green with molle all over it, get some normie hiking bag, or rich hipster outdoor gear like patagonia. Onlt after all this you should start thinking about a rifle.
>>64336101>Fuck is that a guy with a rifle?>Uh I see a guy with a backpack walking down the road
>>64336318Under what civilian circumstances are a pistol-ish caliber long gun buried in a backpack or sitting in your car better than just using a handgun that you can conceal on your person, easily maneuver in an enclosed space like a vehicle and rapidly draw if needed?PDWs make sense for a military vehicle crew who have a need for a self defense weapon that can engage out to 100 meters in a protracted firefight, but can't carry a full sized carbine without it getting in the way of doing their job. Civilians don't need that - self defense scenarios are almost universally short ranged and over in seconds. The only important variable in civilian self defense is whether the firearm needs to be concealed i.e. are you out in public or in your home - handguns are the vastly superior option in the former scenario because they can be drawn very quickly and are as concealable as it gets, and intermediate caliber rifles dominate the latter because of their lethality and ease of use (followed closely by shotguns).
>>64335240>the terminal effectiveness of all 3You’re a delusional retard, that doesn’t even make sense. In a pistol 5.7 has half the muzzle energy of 9mm, there is no getting around that without magic. You’re better off with a .32
>>64335231But with the caveat that it can’t feed through the grip, so it’s just a truncated rifle. I know some people consider that to still be a PDW. I don’t.
>>64335298Yup. or really any of these short SCHV experimental cartridges from back in the day, before 5.56 was a thing.
>>64335450The definition of PDW precludes pistols. Otherwise yeah pistols are unmoggable PDWs.
>>64335873Pics like your picrel are porn to me, anon. I, too, love the really small SCHV cartridges. You know they can feed through the grip? Your war-ready SBR just got like 5 inches shorter.Btw, “boz” means “whore” in my mother tongue. I always chuckle when I read about it. And G7 (as in, BC) translates to “faggot”, in the same way m8 translates to “mate”
>>64336390The PDW isn't a handgun replacement, its like a second tier weapon you bring in addition to your handgun when things are bad enough to warrant it, and it gives you better accuracy and ease of use, possibly more capacity and nicer red dot. The US is stable enough at the moment that the average civilian doesn't to worry about that, but its applicable in say, South Africa. What happens when a country starts to fall apart is that there are safe zones where private security and citizens maintain a higher degree of order, and areas in between that are more dangerous to move through, but where you often need to move through. The police aren't absent but are weak and corrupt, and will not tolerate you just walking around overtly armed. There are frequent social unrest events that involve arson and looting, and there are organised gangs doing hijackings and kidnappings. The bagged PDW is for travelling through those aforementioned areas, and for things like neighbourhood patrols with a neighbourhood watch, and for outbreaks of social unrest.
>>64336414>I know some people consider that to still be a PDW. I don’t.Because you're a weirdo. Any definition of a PDW that doesn't include the P90, as yours doesn't, is fucking weird.
>>64336449I think they make another term because PDW was just the name of a NATO program for very specific idea (small caliber, fast and lower energy projectiles from compact weapons for rear-echelon use). It's like strapping the latest iPhone to your rig and calling it Nett Warrior."Holsterable carbine" is much better in my opinion.
>>64336449Right, I’m on 4chan, where everyone has autism so context is nonexistent, and everything needs to be explicated. I’m referring to the mag placed in front of the grip, like in a conventional rifle. Obviously.
>>64336443I'll repeat my question - in what semi-SHTF scenario are you better off taking off a backpack, digging around in it, pulling out a PDW and unfolding it, and then engaging the threat...instead of either drawing a concealed handgun and engaging the threat *quickly* or simply leaving?
>>64336506Prepared citizen shit doesn't have to make sense, you just have to engage with it at their level of thought.Something like the Flux Raider that you can have in an open carry holster during "civil unrest" would allow you to make better follow-up and long range shots while remaining very unintrusive. Another practical use case is say, airport security, where you have few security personnel but still need to shoot people that are far away.Someone brought up SA farmers, which is another very realistic use case. If lunchtime rowdies break into your house while your wife is breastfeeding your baby and you're out fixing the tractor, a handgun might not cut it.
>>64336506Well you need to have some kind of internal holster in the bag and zip pulls to allow you to draw quickly and repeatably, so there shouldn't be a massive time difference, but basically if you have a moment's warning, stage the PDW, if you don't, then draw your handgun and shoot it empty, then grab your PDW. Keep in mind the idea is that the handgun is a subcompact for easy of daily carry. Its similar to how Jim Cirillo of the New York stakeout squad used to carry a compact easily accessible handgun (Snubby or PPK) that he would reach for first, and then a high capacity semi auto to continue the fight. I mean you could argue carrying a full size handgun with a dot and comp and lots of extra mags covers both the handgun and PDW use cases, but its a bit suboptimal for either. Plus the bag allows you to bring other stuff like a first aid kit.
>>64335886AR15s are legitimately good for coyote/deer/hog hunting, take that back right now you filthy larper
>>64336097Just carry a pistol you fucking sperg kek, if I need anything more than 9mm I'm taking an actual rifle
>>64336522Regarding South Africa, the Afrikaaners would do well to consult the Official Chimpout Advisory Guide. Note the namesake of the Category 4 Chimpout.Anyway, a PDW is a good idea for SA, but a rifle is even better if you’re expecting your life to become imperiled every now and then. I have seen pictures out of SA of those flux kits and other similar pistol-to-carbine(ish) conversions.
>>64336522SA is actually a good example because there are a lot of armed citizens involved in farm security and neighbourhood security, and the firearm laws prohibit any open carry in public by non-private security and require firearms to be securely stored in a safe unless within reach of the owner, so you wouldn't be able to have an AR in your pickup unless its locked up, and you'd have to store it in a wall mounted safe overnight as well. Another thing is also the visibility of firearms, you don't want farm labourers to know you have an AR in your pickup, even if they do not steal it themselves the information may spread and someone else might try.SA private security is actually pretty fascinating, its getting more common to see thermals nowadays, either fixed cameras or drone mounted, also sometimes security drones with digital NV.
>>64336657>>64336669>SAwow who would've thought niggerland is a shithole, just leave there's nothing of value for whites there
>>64336702it's the homeland of the Afrikaner and if they want to stay and fight for it why shouldn't they.ons zal offer aan jouw roepstem en dergelijke
>>64336657Most of the Afrikaners that are still in SA are pretty set on staying, to understand it you need to realize the cultural differences between Anglosphere culture and Afrikaner culture are similar to Anglo-German differences, Afrikaners are more collectivist, and have historically had to fight constantly to secure their land borders, so there isn't a cultural sense of "just pack up and leave for another part of the empire with better prospects", if you want to leave you basically have to move to an even more wild area and displace the hostile natives. Plus a large part of Afrikaner cultural identity involves living on the land of South Africa, and having a God-given right to it. A lot of the popularity of those carbine kits is due to self loading rifles being a bit more hassle to get than pistols, and if its licensed as a pistol it stays a pistol even with a stock. (A few people tried to pass off PCCs as pistols, I think after that the ruling became something like if its in a common pistol caliber and the barrel is under 8 inches it counts as a pistol, but don't quote me on that). The problem is that a lot of the carbine kits available are dogshit like Ronis. I think if flux-like kits were more available they would be more popular, and in recent years some newer kits from FAB defence have been popping up that look a bit better, so maybe they will gain traction.
>>64336702Learn your lessons from SA man, they might prove useful in the future
>>64336474>I’m referring to the mag placed in front of the grip, like in a conventional rifle. Obviously.How does the mag of a P90 fit into that? And the post you were replying to with that was>>64335231>.300 Blackout is just a better .30 carbine. Very similar preformance but with better bullet and platform choice.>So you're kind of right, but .300 does it all better.Your reply makes no sense vs that comment and now you're basically saying that you were only talking about conventional full rifles (so not traditional mag fed bullpups either), but that's purely a design thing not a cartridge thing.You'd be better off focusing on what you're actually after anon not proxies. Like,>"in order to be a PDW I think it has to weigh less then A, the OAL in use has to be <X and it should be able to be stored <Y (if these are different numbers because you want to count folding stocks differently), and right now there aren't good choices for 300bo yet"OK that'd be an argument I can see.
>>64335217>More powerful than a regular pistol>Smaller than a rifle but just as accurate>Penetrates armor with the right ammoBEHOLD A PDW!
>>64336775This is unironically saved in my PDW folder, needs a shorter can tho
>>64336754> How does the mag of a P90 fit into that?It doesn’t. Hence why the P90 is a PDW, not a truncated rifle.
>>64335217Is picrel a PDW?
>>64336801That's not a proportional response bag gun in a lightweight caliber made for protection against le wholesome niggerinos, picrel fits that criteria set by brass fags
>>64336318That means picrel is a PDW since it's in a backpack?
>>64336794So you're saying an X95 is a PDW? If so then sure that's fine, but doesn't really lead to any durable advantage for 30carbine over 300bo either.
>>64336318>PDWs small enough to be stored in sling bags or backpacks are infinitely more useful to most civilians than building out an AR like a service riflelol? Civilian self defense uses pistols. And you can fit a rifle in a backpack you just need a bigger backpack. PDWs are an answer to a problem nobody has.
>>64336837Kinda, yeah, but a really bad one, since all bullpups suck. But it is much smaller than a conventional rifle and can be passively carried or even worn (sorta). Ideally, a PDW should be small enough to be holsterable.
I'm >>64336522>>64336443Anon, while bag guns (and "truck guns") are not a ridiculous notion, calling them "PDWs" is retarded.The ultra short MP5K-ish rifle thing -in 300BLK or otherwise- is fairly new but takedown AR-15s which were explicitly designed have been around since forever. They're essentially dead now, but they were never called "PDWs."A PDW is a very specific thing and I disagree with people calling Flux Raiders and shit PDWs in the first place. It denotes a category as specific as assault rifles. The category you're describing is just the use case for a really short carbine of any caliber. "Bag gun" perfectly encapsulates it without having to resort to trendy initialisms.
>>64336828No, that is the fabled Personal Offense Weapon
>>64335217Just get a pistol with a detachable stock>More capable than a regular pistol>Can remove the stock so it can be concealed>More effay than a cucked SMG
>>64336910I know stock pistols are a meme but picrel will be the meta for a PCC since tax stamps will be free, most stocks like this are under $200 so you save a lot of money without the tax
>>64336871Anon, don't be pedantic about language, languages are living things that change over time, the current usage of the term PDW exists because it is useful, and no, bag gun is not a clear enough concept to replace it. Maybe if everyone called them bag guns from the start it could be, but they didn't so it isn't. The M1 carbine was easily classified as an early PDW when the term was coined around the development of the P90 and MP7, but the term has now shifted far enough that it doesn't make sense to include the M1 carbine in the definition, and further development of pistol-based PDWs will probably cause the term to start excluding short barreled intermediate caliber rifles as well, because there are terms like SBR that work to cover the concept.Words don't have precise definitions, every concept can wander or have fuzzy edges. Like how the word "pistol" used to include revolvers but nowadays doesn't, and then retards try to invent exact retroactive definitions like "the chamber has to be integral to the barrel to be a pistol" which was never historically true, what happened is that "revolver pistol" became "revolver", and "semi-auto pistol" was shortened to "pistol" in casual speech, so a new word had to develop to encompass both, so the term "handgun" grew in popularity to replace the older concept of pistol
>>64336955Shit like this reminds me that tons of guns look excellent on paper with a banger spec sheet but either suck or make no sense in practice. Another example is bullpups.
>>64335217>>64335873>>64336002>>64336422These anons know what's up. .30 Carbine is excellent, but it's rather outdated now due to short barrel requirements and the emergence of higher pressure loadings. .221 Fireball is close to perfection, but it's a little too long to comfortably fit inside a pistol grip. The dream is something as long as 7.62 Tokarev with similar performance to .221 Fireball, maybe with a slightly bigger .30 bullet and much higher pressures akin to 9x23 Winchester and 5.7x28.With 50gr@2700fps:10", you're getting freaking fragmentation(!!) and medium-range capability from a subgun sized platform with a superbly convenient form factor. From a full-size handgun (although one that's very unpleasant to shoot unless you make a lower pressure loading), you would still get more than 2300 fps, exceeding tissue elastic limits and causing massive permanent wound cavities. Combine that with a speciality projectile like a spoon tip, and you get a pistol with true "stopping power.".221 Fireball proved that this kind of short barrel performance is possible. I'm holding out hope that .224 Boz wasn't a scam for the short case performance.Compressed loads and deeply seated bullets in wide cases will likely be necessary. Some technologies like polymer telescoped cases greatly reduce overall length, but those are a long long way from hitting the shelves.
>>64337087.221 Fireball is already 55,000 PSI and capacity limited, pretty much all loads for it are compressed and there's not a big range between underpressure and pipe bomb. You're not going to be able to make a much smaller cartridge with the same performance. Possibly something like a necked down 10mm case at 60,000 PSI could do it.
>>64336966It's not pedantry. If anything, I'm contesting your own idiosyncratic prescriptivism regarding changing the meaning of PDW. Either way, I support consensus/first-coining prescriptivism for most technical terminology, and for guns and other military-related topics especially.The M1 carbine could be a "PDW" by the NATO definition because it was a >small(er) caliber>lower energy>shorter range weapon>mainly issued for rear-echelon (and officer) use>for self-protectionWhich is almost exactly the philosophy behind the PDW program and its intended doctrine. However, this reclassification only serves as a historical curiosity, because you might as well classify it as a semi-automatic ancestor to the assault rifle. To illustrate via apagogical argument, it's ultimately like calling the F-4 Phantom a Joint Strike Fighter because it was also used by the USAF, USN, and USMC."PDW" is an opaque, exosemantic, technical compound. Much like how you would never call all 10.3" uppers (or even 11.5" or similar length uppers) "CQBRs," an older Subaru Outback an "SUV," or a black powder rifled musket with an 17" barrel an "SBR," you don't just call any weapon that is used for personal defense a capitalized "Personal Defense Weapon."On the other hand, terms like "bag gun," "cargo plane," and even "handgun" are lexically transparent, autosemantic compounds. The fact they lack a formal definition makes them *more* useful in context. A "bag gun," in the context of our conversation, is a gun that fits in a regular-sized backpack, and to that end usually has a folding stock with a relatively short barrel or a takedown mechanism.There are myriad reasons for preferring autosemantic terms. As enthusiasts, we might not appreciate learnability out of our inherent elitism, but it's incredibly beneficial to not have to define a term every time you use it, or, even worse, cause terminological conflict by co-opting a well-established term.
>>64336506My sp9a3pdw beats my owb pistol running courses at 15 yards and further. Next time I get the chance ill try it at closer ranges with paper. Its carried in a 16 inch laptop bag.Ill also test iwb/concealed vs. bag next The last test was low ready with the brace collapsed vs no cover/owb. I suspect the stribog will win at anything over 5 yards. I dont train with my rifle or fullsize handgun anymore. Its just the compact and stribog now. They just legalized open carry of long guns and pistols where I live, still not carrying, or wearing anything overt.
>>64336318WRONG. If you don't pick THIS specific SKU you WILL die
Ok so what I’m getting out of all this is that PDWs are really useful when:1. There is a high chance of encountering threats outside, but;2. Somehow it’s still a good idea to go to, like, your local, still functional grocery store on foot instead of driving the fuck out of there, and;3. Carrying a proper rifle/carbine and being visibly armed will get you shot, yet;4. They’re principled enough not to shoot/loot people wearing large backpacks who may or may not be armed, and;5. It isn’t justified to engage these parties preemptively, furthermore;5. You have time to go digging around in your backpack to defend yourself instead of drawing your handgun.6. Or you live in South Africa.Yeah, I’m going to be real, I don’t envision this being real universal.For every day carry you should spend more time and money improving your handgun effectiveness than splurging on some meme backpack gun, and just try to avoid dangerous areas to begin with.For immediate property defense you can just stay inside your house with a rifle. If you have outdoor property or things get bad enough (e.g. Rodney King riots, Kenosha) then most people in the states either aren’t going to give a fuck if you have a long gun anyways or they would still act aggressively towards you if you weren’t visibly armed, or they aren’t even here in the first place and that’s why you need to be armed.In event of hostile occupation by an opfor you are no less doomed trying to reactively return fire with your backpack PDW than actively formulating an engagement and evasion plan with proper primary arms. Do something or don’t do something, don’t do this half-assed in between nonsense where you think you can amble around Walmart one second and gun down half a dozen Chinese paratroopers the next and somehow get away with it.To be clear I’m not calling PDWs useless, but a lot of this bag gun justification reads as pretensions of contrarian enlightenment and/or consumerism.
>>64337478>To be clear I’m not calling PDWs useless, but a lot of this bag gun justification reads as pretensions of contrarian enlightenment and/or consumerism.Ive had four hurricanes and a tropical storm come through in the last three years. The last one made my whole area look like a map from a Fallout video game. All emergency services were overwhelmed and major thoroughfares where impassable. I have a firm rule about leaving firearms in vehicles, so I find a PDW potentially very useful. Its deploys very quickly from a small laptop bag. You want a short barrel and a telescoping brace. The longer/larger it is, the longer it takes to deploy.
>>64336443You don't need all these gymnastics to justify a PDW over all other types of firearms for realistic uses.Take the MP-7 for instance, which I'd argue is the archetypical modern PDW with the following macro-mechanical features;>chambered in a sub-intermediate rifle round>grip-insert magazine>rear receiver overhang with extendible stockIt's;>concealable in a shoulder holster with a grip-length mag installed, and spare mags (also easily concealable) on the offhand side>compact enough that you can contract your shooting stance to have the muzzle barely protruding past your body (pistol-like retention in a grapple)>agile/flick-able in handling to gain a decisive advantage in/around doorways, hallways, stairwells, and vehicles>stable and powerful enough when deployed to be very dangerous to ~250yds>highly-suppressible to the point of total flash mitigation and not deafening in useAnyone employed in protective services, anyone who's job it is to be as well armed as practical within a vehicle, or frankly anyone who lives in a climate which makes concealment easy; certain PDWs confer benefits no other class of weapon does.
>>64337478No you're not missing anything, "PDWs" aren't impossible to construct a theoretical case for but the venn diagram intersection is pretty fucking minuscule as a civilian. Hell, even for militaries the world over SMGs have been a shrinking niche for like 20 years. But particularly for a civilian, where your default when out and about should be to try to avoid trouble in the first place and escape asap whenever possible. Which leaves being caught off guard at close range, which means you don't have time to go rummaging through your pack and a handgun is both a requirement and does the job. A PCC can be somewhat smaller then an SBR but not much, and they aren't light either. Even if you put one in a pack that's a significant amount of weight to be lugging around all the time. And if it's a vehicle or home defense, again why not an SBR? The theorycraft just stretches too far from reality in the modern world. Like>you think you can amble around Walmart one second and gun down half a dozen Chinese paratroopers the next andI know you meant this as a silly example, but case-in-point: it's impossible in an age of mass comms and surveillance for there to be a paratroopers anywhere with 50 miles if not the same continent as you in America and not know about it way ahead of time. Which would mean IRL I wouldn't be going to fucking walmart I'd be buttoned up at home or with the militia or the like. I'm not a video game protag and the odds a PCC lets me win against armed numbers over a handgun without dying myself are near zero.
>>64337585MP7 stock extended is 25" long, yeah only 16" collapsed but that's no fairy either way. 4.6x30 is firmly handgun tier as a round, despite nearly 60k psi pressure. You're still only getting about 2000-2300 fps at the muzzle out of an MP7's 7" barrel for a 30-40gr bullet. You've covered the main niche case for it (semi-blended in protective services, maybe the likes of airport security or something in some cases), but it's tiny. That said nothing wrong with it if that fits you or if someone just enjoyed them.
>>64337478If the only scenarios you can think of are localized riots or invasion by a foreign power then I don't know what to tell you man. Society can slide a lot further down the dysfunction scale while still requiring everyone to pretend to be civil and do stuff like go to work, buy groceries and not run around with openly carried weapons>>64337533This guy gets it
>>643376444.6x30 is on the small side of what I think's optimal, I've shared here my idea for a 5x34 (really 1.35" case) based on a .257 tapered straightwall with a .300 rim. Basically, take the 30carbine/22spitfire, and shrink it down in width only to a 25carbine/20spitfire; target COAL for both of 1.65".You would get a lot of efficient power out of a 7" barrel with a straightwall case, and still more power than 4.6/183 with a 5/204.
>>64337664Most workplaces will not allow you to bring in a bagged PDW. Most of those that do, will also allow you to bring a rifle.If this is a temporary emergency or disaster, then every dollar you spent on a bag gun could have been spent on buying supplies from a store before the disaster ever happened. This would prevent you from having to leave your car AND your house.
>>643358737.5FK. 6.16 g (95 gr) FKB S95 JHP 2,000 ft/s (610 m/s) 850 ft⋅lbf (1,150 J)Test barrel length: 152mm (6") Your target of 2400fps could be achieved with ease by handloading. 65 grain bullet at 2400fps results in slightly less muzzle energy than the factory load. With 8 inch barrel 2500fps could probably be reached. Handloading also solves the issue with ammo availbility.
>>64337713>If this is a temporary emergency or disaster, then every dollar you spent on a bag gun could have been spent on buying supplies from a store before the disaster ever happened. This would prevent you from having to leave your car AND your house. Not leave my house or drive for several days? Have you ever experienced a natural disaster firsthand?
>>64337713>Most workplaces will not allow you to bring in a bagged PDWLuckily its concealed, so they don't have to know about itIn all seriousness I can see a bag gun being a problem in some trades, factory work, or if you're a burger flipper, but there are a lot of jobs where you can easily bring a bag gun and just not tell people about it
>>64337734nta but yes? Obviously this is pretty geography and house dependent, but "shelter in place" is standard advice when possible and it is indeed possible for a lot of us.>Not leave my house or drive for several days?I do this with some regularity during periods I'm working from my home office anyway. I've got 80 acres of land and can walk for miles across neighbor woods, I only need to go to the grocery store every few weeks. I've got 11kw of solar and 27kwh of battery, well water etc. It's not an issue at all. Obviously if a tornado totaled my house or some shit like that it'd be a different story but that's not mad max either.
>>64337592Allright I'm officially calling you a moron. Its only fair, this is all been explained to you. A PDW mogs a pistol at basically any range besides arm's length. You can transport it and deploy it easily. It can be discreetly carried from a structure to a vehicle. >rummagingYou simply pull it out. >luggingYou're not hiking the Appellations with it>sbrIts illegal to CC an NFA firearm and you don't want to use one in an SD situation anyway.
>>64337734Enlighten me then. What are you needing to get outside that a radio, power bank, canned food, portable generator etc. can’t do for you? If you need to visit family or friends, why do they tolerate a bagged PDW but not a cased rifle, assuming they couldn’t simply live with you temporarily in the first place?>Have you ever experienced a natural disaster firsthand?Closest I’ve been is snowed in for a little. Can’t say I had a pressing desire for anything outside that couldn’t have been kept inside to begin with.
>>64337723Yeah, 7.5 FK is basically the modern day Eurospensive .30 Carbine. I shilled this exact concept for years before the FK BRNO came out, so many faggots would make up reasons why it just won't work and that's why companies don't make them. Well, fuck them. Most of the good gun ideas don't get made out of pure stubbornness, and when they do they're made by boutique manufacturers like FK that keep their shit proprietary until they go bankrupt and fade into obscurity, convincing every other soulless manufacturer that good ideas are bad actually. FK could release this 65 gr loading and partner with another company to make a PCC with intermediate SBR performance tomorrow, but they won't, because we can't have good things. Not that I would buy it still because their business model sucks complete dick.
>>64337795That s great Bud. I live on the coast in a highly populated area where if I drive 20 minutes south I might as well be in another country. Everybody is armed to the teeth, and it gets real fucking hot, so people regularly lose their shit over nothing. The last time a hurricane hit I left my house at sunrise to drive around and check for damage to my friend's homes. I'm not squatting in my house doing fuck all after a natural disaster.
>>64337796>A PDW mogs a pistol at basically any range besides arm's lengthIn your theorycraft world? Sure. In reality nobody who spends a minimum amount of time practicing has any trouble landing a few rounds in a 6" circle at 5-7yd, which is where like 97% of civilian defense happens. And a pistol "mogs" a PDW in terms of actually having it on you all the time and actually getting it out in a hurry when you need it.>You can transport it and deploy it easily. It can be discreetly carried from a structure to a vehicle. Not to any significant degree vs an SBR. Sorry dude, being shorter by 6" just doesn't make much difference when it's already a foot and half long or more.>You simply pull it out. Of a fucking backpack lol.>AppellationsNice autocorrect, you don't go outside much do you?>Its illegal to CC an NFA firearmHoly shit where did you pull this out from?>YOU TOTALLY CAN'T CONCEAL A HANDGUN WITH A SUPPRESSOR GUYS THATS ILLEGALlol what?!
>>64337810>Enlighten me then. What are you needing to get outside that a radio, power bank, canned food, portable generator etc. can’t do for you?There is massive destruction. It has to be fixed. Who fixes it? The people who live there. Me. I'm not addressing the rest of your babble. Good day.
>>64336422Armenian, I take it? That's awesome. Mag-in-grip is an excellent form factor for a rifle. A P90 magazine arrangement is ideal for ergonomics and magazine capacity, but that introduces other challenges that keep it from being as good for holster use or as a service rifle.Picrel: Crye Precision patent for a holsterable, .300 Blackout, mag-in-grip carbine. The cartridge is too long for a normal magazine design. They won't ever make it btw, it's just patent squatting.
I see there's some tacit pilpul here that "brace" legal trickery can be applied to pcc but not intermediate caliber short barrel carbines. It's not the case. If magazine is not in the grip, the cartridge length limitations are irrelevant and we discussing weapons that are comfortably inside AR-15 pattern domain.
>>64337864Sorry anon it's just hard for Americans to comprehend the miserable conditions you third worlders live in sometimes. Glad you have the right tool for the job you do.
>>64337868I'm not reading the off-topic backpack gun autism ITT but I think Americans are well past this now. FRTs/Super Safeties are explicitly legal now and the tax for SBRs and suppressors is going away. If anything, the NFA protects these """pistols""" on a federal level, you only have to worry about the explicit AR-15 bans in some states.
>>64337478I think bag guns are largely a meme outside of it being a nondescript container to get a better than a handgun option from point A to point B without arousing suspicion. People actively carrying a bag gun with the expectation of using it for self defense are dumb outside of some niche circumstances, like maybe working in a controlled access environment with an elevated risk where you're likely to have time to retrieve it if something is going down. PDWs are best used as a modern whippit style gun under a jacket, in situations where you HAVE to go out and do something somewhere you probably shouldn't be. It's a pretty small niche which pretty much relies on some sort of civil unrest or local SHTF, but it's nice to have the option and the much more realistic uses of a very handy HD firearm or easily packable better than handgun option for trips justifies the gun already if you're interested in either of those.
>>64337832lol you are a special kind of retard. Yes, a PDW absolutely crushes a pistol under a timer. I train with these firearms, its a fact. Yes, 6 inches is night and day when trying to carry, deploy and conceal something. Yes, carrying a nfa firearm can be illegal depending on the state.
>>64335882But I have to ask why? Quality guns are already expensive, especially if you add optics, so why create a new class where your regular pistol can't be included in just so you have to drop another 1400 dollars on a gun? Instead buy a thermal for your rifle with that or buy a spotter drone.
>>64337909>robber just pulled a knife at me>one moment good sir while I pull around by backpack or manpouch, unzip it and retrieve my "PDW">no not just yet now let me uncollapse it>yes indeed I train cqb constantly I consider myself rather special at it and this is much faster then drawing from a holsteryeah>I live in a backwards shithole state where suppressors and SBRs are illegalthis explains a lot lmao
>>64337864You’re working in construction and/or debris clearing crews, at places where you can’t keep an eye on your car, that tolerate a bagged PDW but not a cased rifle?I mean hey, you do you, but this sounds like a specific scenario which doesn’t at all prove that PDWs are generally more important than rifles.>>64337868This is also true.>>64337832Also, to add on, a nice single action handgun with a dot easily puts rounds on target within ~30-50 yards without an especially high level of proficiency.
>>64336657kek
2nd recommending a short 300 blk AR for a bag gun.Solid out to 200 yards with supersonic rounds.110 Vmax or any hunting round really as long as it cycles.PSA and keep it cheap imo if it really does get stolen out of your vehicle, its not the main carbine/rifle.Thats the 5.56.
>>64337585i fucking love the look of this thing, just make it in a non toy caliber. And make it full auto and paint it camo.
>>64335217>?si=9yzDUuu1WYdxpsFt >?si=4pOhHGiQRfmQ4E5M>?si=GnTwkEkJwqBXjMXI&t=209>?si=5OlU82kIJi_TWVvLfuck off glownigger
>>64337697how hard is it to make something like this in your garage?
>>64337585>concealable in a shoulder holster with a grip-length mag>Noguns doesn't know
>>64337796>Appellationsdid you mean the Appalachians.....?
>>64337878>Hold on mr tyrone let me get out my bag gun PDW civilian concept defensive firearm from my tactical PDW concealed carry backpackNigga u dead
>>64338030You use your pistol to get to your long gun
>>64338038>stop the gunfight sir let me get out my bag gun PDW civilian concept firearmcorny ass nigga
>>64337981I'm not the PDW anon and also agree with you on compact 300bo being great, but:>PSA and keep it cheap imo if it really does get stolen out of your vehicle, its not the main carbine/rifle.I will completely agree with him on the subject of generally not leaving a gun in a car (short of like, a hidden armored box or at least locked trunk or something as a backup thing or you're heading out to go hunting and stopping as the gas station briefly). It's not the cost if stolen for me personally at least, it wouldn't matter if it only cost $100. Might sound a little gay but it'd genuinely really bother my conscience and morals if one of my guns was stolen in a simple car smash&grab and then got used in a robbery or the like. There are some states with safe storage reqs where I guess you might actually get in trouble for it, mine is not one of them, though no doubt there'd be extra hassle and looks when I reported it stolen. But even without any legal consequences I'd judge someone for that socially, and I'd judge myself too.
>>64338030You can't shoot or attack me when I'm getting out my PDW and getting ready that'd be illegal and dishonorable. Once I am in position we have each called for our seconds we may duel for my wallet like gentlemen.
>>64335231So, are we talking civilian or military?Because if you're talking military, then LOL LMAO, and if you're talking civilian, then please do go into town lugging around a carbine that fires it.The locals will be thrilled.Or are you gonna keep it in the back of the pickup, or on a seat and fumble with it, while Tyrone dumps a mag into you from his Glock at a red light?
Shills and retards mad American white boys walking around with fully semiautomatic folding 300 bo ARs in their backpacks.
>>64337993>>64338011
>>64338011>extended mag>extended stock>extended foregripYou cannot fucking read.
>>64338212>>64338281Do you own an MP7?
>>64337993S&W should make a PDW based on their tempo system.
>>64338286Do you own a measuring tape?
>>64338300So you don't even own the gun you're shilling?
>>64338300He's probably going to tell you that you don't own one because they're so bad that they never sold on the civilian market. That's why the military switched over from tanks to using base-trim Ford Focuses.
kek, I was right.
>>64338300Please tell us about the experience of shooting an MP7 without the stock extended from the draw and post groups and your MP7 cc holster.
>>64335217>It's another assfacts approved SHTFLGBTQ cosplay thread
>>64338011>>64338286>>64338338>>64338372Do you own a measuring tape?
>>64338373OP is not a faggot this time. It's just some thread hijacking niggers.
>just like 5.7 shills, the pdw shill does not own the gun he's shillingwhy are they always like this? these are supposed to be the miracle godly gun rounds yet they do not have them.
>>64337909Honestly I didn't really notice a difference between my raider/G19 until 15yrds or so. Somewhere between 15 & 25 though the difference becomes pretty massive.
>>64338212As a young guy, I don't know whether I should be somewhat relieved or extremely saddened that most of these incredibly ambitious and innovative military programs got cancelled or raped/hijacked due to stupidity, delusion, or simple circumstance even before my time.
>>64338373The PDW advocacy is actually one of AssFacts more useful ideas, the rest of his content is just what-if -SHTF-in-minecraft military larping in the desert and obsessing over increasingly autistic AR builds. I did also enjoy his dip into long range boltguns recently
>>64337087>>64337175Cased telescoped is always a compressed load by design and their M855A1 equivalent cartridge was the same length as 5.7x28, even though they didn't even design it for that. But yeah, we likely won't see it within the next 30 years or more, and not in the civilian world for a decade after that.Necking down 10mm is the best option, that's essentially what FK did for their 7.5 cartridge except with proprietary dimensions because they're gay Europeans, and what 9x25 Dillon and .224 Boz did initially. It might have to be an Ackley Improved sort of deal too.
>>64338890Only problem with the 10mm case is that it's much lower pressure. I'm not sure if it actually has thinner webbing than .30 Remington but you might lose case capacity going to something that can take rifle pressures.
>>64336955ENTER: o assassino de fluxhttps://www.taurususa.com/product/pistols/taurus-gx4/taurus-gx4-strike-bravo-15rds-with-brace/
>>64338936Yeah, a necked down rifle case like 22TCM is certainly a better idea for higher pressures, just copy FK essentially.If you're feeling really crazy, you could make it a NAS3 exclusive. Their cases have no stepped case wall at all and I feel like the aluminum head wouldn't bust even with 10mm's large primer. Probably not the best idea though.
