>tfw the modern US army squad loadout is so inferior to a 70's Warsaw pact loadout including a light weight GPMG and DMR that the US is trying to cope by going back to battle rifles to OVERMATCH the range of basic bitch soviet armamentsclown world
>tfw OP is a baiting nigger
>>64363481>PKM shitposting is backHoly fucking based
>>64363495>is the best light GPMG in the world in your path for sixty years and counting
>>64363481 i didn't even look at the OP text so i thought it was about converting an SVD to use PKM belts and got really, really hard for a second
>>64363481You joke about overmatch but unironically soviet small arms were one of the only fields where soviets achieved parity or greater to the US equivalentsMy sprey-type chartSKS > M1 Garand - SKS lighter, cheaper, faster follow up shots and the same effective range and accuracy.AK > M1 Garand - Same reasons as above. Much better magazine capacity as well. Folding stock on some.AK/SKS > M1/M2 Carbine - Same reasons as aboveAKM > M14 - much lighter, same effective range, better magazine capacity, faster follow up shots, folding stock for mechanized troopsAKM > XM16E1/M16A1 - More reliable, easier to clean, slight undermatch in effective range, slight undermatch in follow up shots, folding stock, better magazine capacity until 1969SG-43 = M1919A4 - Both ww2 era MMGsRP-46 < M1919A4 - browning more ubiquitous RPD < M1919A6/M1918A2 - Soviets dropped the ball herePK/PKM > M1919A4/M60 - One of the lightest gpmgs while still remaining accurate simple and reliableSVD > M1D/M21 - The SVD is the greatest rifle ever made. Compared to the US equivalent, the SVD is much more accurate, more reliable, simpler to clean, more beautiful, and, most critically, as of the late 60s the SVD was issued standard with a 4x optic and in much much greater numbers than the M21.Tokarev/Makarov = M1911A1/M1917 - All pistols here have their upsides and downsides but all of them are roughly similar, large, heavy, low capacity pistols. The tokarev cant be carried safely with a round chamberedAK-74 > M16A2 - Similar front heaviness, same follow up shots, same effective range, same magazine capacity, more reliable, folding stock, easier to clean.AKS = M3A1 (grease gun) - Both have upsides and downsides with the grease gun notably being smaller but not majorly smaller which is important for tank crews.
>>64363487U mad bro?
>>64363587Uhm actually the M4, M27, M110, M9, and M2 50 cal are direct upgrades over their zigger equivalents doe, and those are the only category of guns that really matter to regular infantry. The only thing that they have that wins is the PKM
>>64363652>M4Shit ballistics, should've switched to a 16" barrel like the M27 has
>>64363652I'm not sure if the PKM is superior, really. It's more functional in the LMG role, but as an MMG it falters. The M240 is more accurate and retains accuracy for longer when firing and is more reliable in general.You don't really ever even see the PKM used in the heavier roles. People seem to only really use it as a one-man system, never bothering with crew-served operations or tripods.
>>64363587>AKM > XM16E1/M16A1Nah M16 was the breakthrough. We finally have overmatch there.>RPD < M1919A6/M1918A2 - Soviets dropped the ball hereSmoking crack. The RPD was the best mg made until the Stoner 63 and PKM came out. Only thing the soviets did wrong was not chop the barrel to 16" imo.Also AK74=M16 and M2>any of the Soviet HMGs out there.
>>64363587>M16A1/A2 worse than AKM/AK-74>SG-43 not rated worse than the M1919A4>RPD worse than the M1919A6 and BAR (how the fuck could you possibly come to this conclusion?)>AKS not rated better than M3jfc dude half of your chart is the fucking reverse of realityAlso the SVD is true but it's overrated as fuck and only gets a pass for being the earliest DMR is widespread use. If the West gave the DMR concept a try earlier and more frequently used them the story would have been different. A hypothetical proto-SR-25 or widespread PSG1s would have BTFO the SVD, far from the best rifle ever made.
>>64363587>AK74Better BC than 556. 10.5gram rounds instead of 12grams too.
>>64363839>Muh LMGPDWCQBMMGHMGLGBTQ concept firearm doctrine weaponSay NO! To acronyms, they cause autism.
>>64363912shit sights and accuracy, heavy mags and slow rounds, retarded muzzle brake alone makes it far inferior to any infantry rifle
>>64363933Well it's supposed to be a GPMG, but nobody seems to ever use it as a real GPMG.Compare it to the M240 which you'll see used as everything from a squad's primary fire support weapon to coaxial machine guns on vehicles.I'm just saying, if nobody likes using it for what it's supposed to be, then it can't really be all that good in the role...
>>64363943But PKM users do the exact same thing doe
Small arms literally don't matter. Weapons systems do. The US Army could still be using Garands and M1 carbines and it wouldn't actually change any doctrine or the outcome of any conflict.
>>64363909SVD is utterly mediocre and does nothing better than scoped battle rifles that everyone was already using besides being slightly lighter. Easily the most overhyped soviet arm after the ak.
>>64363951no they aren't, dumb frognigger
>>64363956>Uses gpmg as a gpmg>REEE STOP DOING THAT IT DOESNT COUNT REEESo you ARE autistic!
>>64363963>>Uses gpmg as a gpmgno they don't, dumb frognigger
>>64363951But they don't. The PKM is just their squad automatic weapon. There's no machine gun platoon in the Battalion with PKMs as medium machine guns, like with the M240.
>>64363587>AK-74 > M16A2 - Similar front heaviness, same follow up shots, same effective range, same magazine capacity, more reliable, folding stock, easier to cleanKek what is this videogame-tier nonsense comparison?
>>64363943>a squad's primary fire support weaponthe US only did that because they thought the M16 could act as a SAW when equipped with a bipodbut it didnt pan out, requiring them to hand out M240s/M60s to individual squad members ad hoc and they use the M249 as the SAW today instead of the M240
>>64363970>>64363975>ITS NOT AN LMG!>NO ITS NOT A GPMG EITHER!>IT DOESNT FIT MY AUTISTIC CATEGORY SYSTEM THAT MEANS ITS LE BAD!
>>64363998>dumb frognigger is retarded
>>64363943Is that why everyone who fights against a force using PKMs loses? Even the ziggers got rekt when sandniggers and ukranians got them
>>64363997>the US only did that because they thought the M16 could act as a SAW when equipped with a bipodUS were using M60s as squad weapons at the time and only replaced them with M249s decades later.
>>64363998The whole point of a GPMG is to be usable and useful in general purpose, i.e. regardless of if you use it as an LMG, MMG or HMG. That's why GPMGs exist in the first place. If nobody uses a general purpose tool for general purposes, it's probably not really a good general purpose tool. It can still be a good machine gun.It can still be good for what it's used for.But it's probably not a good GPMG.>>64364008But all those forces use it like it's an LMG, not like a true GPMG.Everyone with the M240 treats it like a GPMG.Nobody with the PKM treats it like a GPMG.
>>64364008>Is that why everyone who fights against a force using PKMs loses?Everyone who fights with PKMs always takes disproportionately large casualties and only wins through attrition and greater manpower, much like every other soviet trash.
>>64364009>US were using M60s as squad weapons at the timethe M60 as a SAW was an unofficial arrangement that often required dissolving their weapons team to provide the gunthe official arrangement was for a rifle squad to have only rifles
>>64364015They're both belt fed MGs in full size rifle calibers, they're the same fucking thing doctrine wise
>>64364015>Everyone with the M240 treats it like a GPMG.US kinda don't. You don't seem them being used as LMGs outside of rare cases.
>weighs nearly 8lbs more than the PKMCut the fat off this gun and you have your new squad machinegunI'll take my 10 million dollar consultation fee now
>>64364018Imagine killing more people but still losing, sucks to suck :^)
>>64364019>the official arrangement was for a rifle squad to have only riflesthat's the remnant of the M14 fuckery though and was righly discarded at every opportunity
>>64364032But that isn't a GPWGPMGLMGHMG weapon system, how will autists classify it on a botswanan spearfishing forum?
>>64364023I don't see weapons squads on the company level using PKMs on light, easily deployed tripods anywhere.Do you?They're clearly not doctrinally the same.>>64364029Well yeah, I should've talked about the FN MAG instead of the M240 there.
>>64364033yep, imagine clinging to an inferior propaganda weapon that gets you one-sidedly killed because you got a fictitous "win" in the end.
>>64364047>MUH DOCTRINE MUH USERS USING THE PROPER WEAPON SYSTEM IN THE DOCTRINE ENVIRONMENT TACTICSits an MG bro you shoot people with it
>>643640325 pounds is the best you'll get.The weight is there because the M240 can sustain fires better than the PKM.
>>64364045you can keep seething about machinegun designations but your posts are still retarded, dumb frognigger
>>64364029>US kinda don't.canadians use the C9 as their saw, which is another license-built minimi in 5.56the germans did use the MG3 as their SAW, but they intend to replace it in squads with the MG4 which is also 5.56the french have and continue to use the minimionly the british are adamantly sticking to full-sized rifle rounds for their SAW
>>64364032Here. Bonus feature #1: you can mount optics behind the tray so you don't change zero every time you feed it a fresh belt. Bonus feature #2: it fires in semi-auto, allowing you to use it like a battle rifle you load on the 1st and shoot all month.
>>64364051>broooo bro these are totally the same thing broo, they're all MGs broooretarded frognigger
>>64363481It's a fucking travesty that the m249 weighs more than this piece of shit. Even guns are obese
>>64364061How are they different from a functional standpoint? Doctrine autism doesn't count since it isn't real
>>64363481Both mogged by a Glock 19 unironically
>>64364069retard kys, they're more different than they are the same
>>64364069that's a good question. what is it about the pk that prevents it from being used effectively in a more emplaced role, to the point that it's used exclusively from a bipod? is it too inaccurate and cannot sustain fire for long in that role? are its rudimentary sighting systems so bad that there's no point? are all pk users suffering from collective terminal mental retardation? all of the above?no bro, they totally just decided to not do it for no reason, it's just doctrine retardation, nothing to see here bro.
>>64364051Mostly you shoot it at people, not the people themselves. Sustained fire for suppression adds requirements for the weapon that are better matched by the FN MAG than by the PKM. The PKM's lighter build leaves it less capable of sustained accurate fire. This is very clearly reflected in the reality that the PKM isn't as commonly used in similar roles as the FN MAG.
>>64363481>PKM thread>Immediately filled with seething muttsThis is a certified /k/ classic
>>64364032You're now aware this actually happened: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M240_machine_gun#Daycraft_Systems
>>64363953>That everyone was already usingName one scoped battle rifle in more widespread use than SVD in 1970>Does nothing betterWrong faggot
>>64364082>>64364083>Uhm ACKTUALLY they're different because of my subjective opinions
>>64364084yep, russomutts and their brown shills can't help but harp over their overhyped meme gun at every opportunity right from the OP
>>64364084No
>>64364069Kys zigger bastard>>64364088AR10/S25, M14 EBR, etc
>>64364088>Name one scoped battle rifle in more widespread use than SVDM1D.>Wrong faggotSVD is an inaccurate trash and vatnigger whores like you lie about it 24/7
>>64364084>heavy shit is actually... good!!! brought to you by the people hating on the m7 btw
>>64363940It's not retarded. The idea is to use it full auto to increase hit probably. The sights are so you have an open sight picture. Peeps on an M16 and a flash hider or a gun You're supposed to mag dump into the general area is what's retarded.The SCHV concept as a whole was executed by the Soviets much better imo. Partially because it fit their doctrine better and partially engineering.>Mags suckYour ass. AK74 mags were some of the first polymer mags out there and they're legendary for durability.>Slow reloadsCompletely irrelevant. All reloads are slow as fuck when you're tired and running around. From what you see in Ukraine half the time guys use it to look around anyway and that's M4 and 74. Plus you've got other guys plus IFVs firing in the same direction.l while you reload.Not to mention it had the BEST optic mount for the time period. Amazing for a gun designed for mag dumping full auto. Show me one other gun with a better mount system in 1974 I'll wait.
>>64364092>nooooo, they just WILLINGLY refuse to use it like that, it's not real it's not real nonononon muh subjective opinionsdumb frognigger
>>64364075This, 11.5 PSA AR as a primary and a gen 3 g19 as the secondary with drone support is the future of all warfare
>>64363481The M4 is better because that's what all the cool army guys use
>>64364105>It's not retarded. The idea is to use it full auto to increase hit probably.it is ultimately retarded. full auto wastes ammo, it doesn't improve hit probability, it reduces it beyond point blank ranges. it's simply the typical soviet retardation.>or a gun You're supposed to mag dump into the general areathat's why AK users always eat dirt in a direct engagement.>The SCHV concept as a whole was executed by the Soviets much better imodelusional bunkertranny>Mags suckmags obese and cancel any potential weight savings.>Not to mention it had the BEST optic mount for the time period.AK74 had no optic mount, period.
>>64364075>>64364109>>64364116>>64364094KYS off topic /pol/spammers
>>64364122funny how you forgot to link the orignal /pol/ post screeching about mutts in your mass reply. just a coincidence i\m sure.
>>64364116This but with a 16" barrel and mid gas for increased reliability and parts longevityM27 is ok too I guess, kinda heavy doe
>>64363481>1 shots youNothing personal... kid
>>64364121>doesn't improve hit probability,That's wrong though. Full auto allows you to engage targets that briefly appear much more effectively and suppressive fire absolutely works.>mags obese and cancel any potential weight savings.PMAGs are also heavier than USGI mags. It doesn't cancel any weight savings especially when 5.45 is lighter anyway.>Ackshully it's the AK-74NSXYZ that had the mount not the AK-74Got me pedant. Point stands though. Carry handle mounts are trash compared to the side mount rail.
>>64364128>U R ZIGGER NOT ME I AM NOT ZIGGER I JUST LOVE PUCCIA VERY MUCHWhat blew up this time?
>>64364145holy fuck kys ass blasted retard, fuck off back to /pol/ you retarded inbred ziggerlover
>>64364145>>64364147Niggers we're here to talk about Soviet WEAPONS, not the current zigger vs zogger chimp out.
>>64363481>+2 MOA rifle at its absolute best with match grade ammo>4x scopeLearning about the SVD is an exercise in disappointment.
>>64364141>That's wrong though. Full auto allows you to engage targets that briefly appear much more effectivelyNo it doesn't. It's inferior in all cases and is a waste of ammo and directly reduces your combat effectiveness by wasting ammo.>and suppressive fire absolutely works.suppressive fire works in semi auto, hosing rounds in enemy direction works for the first second and then never again, which is why ak is utter trash designed by delusional idiots.>It doesn't cancel any weight savings especially when 5.45 is lighter anyway.that's a lie and cope.>Got me pedantit's not pedantic to say that all soviet aks except for a miniscule production run of N variants had zero ability to mount optics, ever.
>>64364149>soviets>not ziggers
>>64364149>Niggers we're here to talk about Soviet WEAPONSfrom the OP it was starkly clear it's a zigger seethe thread and a blatantly bad one at that
>>64364105>Show me one other gun with a better mount system in 1974 I'll wait.1967*dabs*
>>64364149What blew up this time?
>>64364140Based and MLGpilled, I should do an M24 clone build
>>64363481>PLATOON marksman rifleLol>>64363516LMAO. It wasn't even the best GPMG in the world when it released.>>64363587>AKM>same effective rangeAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA>The SVD is the greatest rifle ever made.ITT, ziggers actually believe this.
>>64364153>A no u postNot an argument. M16 had 20rd garbage mags, garbage sights, a less terminally effective cartridge, worse bc cartridge, and a less reliable operating system.>>64364173I kneel and await Golgo 13's bullet.
>>64364176Tyumen refinery. 2000km from Ukraine.
>>64364099Those wouldn't come for 25 years>>64364102M1D is worse than the svd in every waySVD is also 1-2moa when they were new in 1970>>64364191Infantrymen have an effective range of 100-200m, both rifles are capable of this
>>64364140>>64364181>Using a bolt action in a military role 1925+100 that isn't an antimaterial rifleThe 417 DMR is lighter than the current M24 (417 is 10lbs m2010 is 12lbs) but for a civilian the bolt action will be a LOT cheaper, which isn't relevant to the military
>>64364201>>64364215What blew up this time? You did!
>>64364217The m2010 is in 300wm doebeit, it's used at longer ranges than a DMR can reach>inb4 300wm semiauto DMR
>>64364215>SVD is also 1-2moa when they were new in 1970more like 3-4+ moa. imagine being outshot by standard NATO battle rifles. what a piece of trash
>>64363481>SOVL
>>64364032M240LWS or the new FN Evolys
>>64364201>>A no u post>Not an argument.Zigger screeching isn't an argument.>garbage magswork fine>garbage sightsvatnigger guns have the worst sights in the world and have had those for over a century by now. completely obsolete, inferior in every way and horrible to use. > less terminally effective cartridgedelusional>worse bc cartridge5.45 is weaker than .30 carbine btw. >and a less reliable operating systemthe final cope of any ak troon.
>>64364023He's pointing out that while the MAG gets used as a bipod-equipped lmg, a tripod-equipped mmg, and a pintle/skate/ring mounted HMG, the PKM only seems to be used as a bipod-equipped lmg.
>>64363481Did the pkm and svd save the russians against an ac130 in syria, or were they obliterated?
>>64363481The KAC LMG and M110 are better than both in every single way, zoomers chads stay winning
>>64364153>No it doesn't.NTA, but that's just untrue. Short controlled bursts provide a higher likelihood of hitting flashing targets, especially in adverse visibility conditions, e.g. some guy sprinting across a narrow street, or doing a quick rush. If you don't have time to aim properly or re-acquire the target after firing (as can be expected in real life combat situations), then naturally putting more rounds downrange is going to improve your likelihood of hitting at least once.If you only get one trigger pull per target, then obviously more rounds = better. The first round is going to either be on target or off, regardless of if you're on full-auto, burst or semi-auto (ignore barrel harmonics), so adding a couple more shots onto the mix with the same trigger pull will only improve the likelihood of impact.
>>64364234The chart you posted says 2.3 moa? Also the 320mm twist rate SVD was mass produced, they made the change in the early 70s after a few years of mass production
>>64364263That's completely true outside of very very specific scenarios that in no way justify the insistence on full auto. >Figure 7-10. Rapid semiautomatic fire training program.a.>Effectiveness of Rapid Fire. When a soldier uses rapid semiautomatic fire properly, he sacrifices some accuracy to deliver a greater volume of effective fire to hit more targets. It is surprising how devastatingly accurate rapid fire can be. At ranges beyond 25 meters, rapid semiautomatic fire is superior to automatic fire in all measures (shots per target, trigger pulls per hit, and even time to hit). The decrease in accuracywhen firing faster is reduced with proper training and repeated practice.FM-3-22.9. Untrained troops have a well known propensity to default to full auto fire and spray and pray without aiming when stressed, which vastly reduces their combat effectiveness and the first thing they're drilled in is to stick to semi auto and aim when they shoot, including under fire which is the easiest way to understand who you're engaging with - rabble or trained soldiers.
>>64364269>The chart you posted says 2.3 moa?it doesn't, learn basic math.
>>643642803MOA is enough to hit a human torso at 600m which is about as effective as a 4x scope gets. But most SVDs actually have an accuracy of 1-2 MOA.
>>64364256This but make them in 6.7 sneedmoar to maximize boomer seething
>>64364284>goes back to cope and lyingglad we agree that svd is absolute trash tier garbage rod
>>64364277Do you have any studies backing up that manual? Every study I've seen on the subject (new ones that I can't find now that Google is cancer) supports the accuracy of burst fire.https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/AD0713552.pdfAre you sure that's not indoctrination instead of fact? It's an important part of training to teach recruits not to use full-auto despite the human instinct pushing them into it. You yourself point it out:>Untrained troops have a well known propensity to default to full auto fire and spray and pray without aiming when stressed, which vastly reduces their combat effectiveness and the first thing they're drilled in is to stick to semi auto and aim when they shoot, including under fire which is the easiest way to understand who you're engaging with - rabble or trained soldiers.This doesn't mean bursts are inferior, it just means it's better to train the troops to use semi-auto only, so they don't waste their ammo.
>>64364289>in the automatic mode, the man was allowed three times as much ammointothetrash.jpg>Are you sure that's not indoctrination instead of fact?cope however you want>This doesn't mean bursts are inferiorit does.
>>64364294Logistically inferior, not in terms of getting hits on target. That's why the troops are indoctrinated to begin with.
>>64364234What's the difference between the R100 and R50?
>>64364295>Logistically inferioraka giving superior hit probability per ammo load. >not in terms of getting hits on targetthis is cope. >indoctrinated blow your brains out, vatnigger. preferably with something that won't miss like an AK made for brainless spraying would.
>>64364287Literally the chart says 7n1 > 100m > 6cm radius, thats 2.3moaThe 800m is 3moaThats not an inaccurate rifle first of all and second of all most are more accurate than thatNato battle rifles were constantly being accepted at 3-6moa. The SVD was built from the ground up by a competition shooter to be as accurate as it could be while still being light enough for the requirements. Its also a better battle rifle than the fal, g3 and m14 within ten shots.
Success breeds jealousy.
>>64364284Remember. Russia and West Taiwan overpromise in their white papers while NATO underpromises.
>>64364301R100 is extreme spread/2, R50 is the mean where 50% of shots land. R50 is used to account for all the shots in the group rather than just the ones most far apart so it's used for measuring accuracy in lab conditions.
>>64364304>aka giving superior hit probability per ammo load. And as such it's not what matters against single targets and immediate combat situations. Thanks for admitting that I'm right.>blow your brains out, vatnigger. preferably with something that won't miss like an AK made for brainless spraying would.The US military itself uses the term indoctrination. You could have just said you don't know what you're talking about.
>>64364308>6cm radius, thats 2.3moaliterally can't do basic math, even when cherrypicking the best result out of all of them>The SVD was built from the ground up by a competition shooter to be as accurate as it could beit's a garbage rod with a pencil barrel that shoots worse than NATO battle rifles.
>>64364308MOA is diameter, not radius. a 6cm radius leads to a 4.6 MOA accuracy.Worse than an M4 carbine lmao.
>>64364320>And as such it's not what matters against single targets and immediate combat situationsit is, in combat situations you don't have infinite ammo and you're just a coping ak tranny defending his obsolete failed abortion of a platform.>The US military itself uses the term indoctrination. not in the same sense you lying slime.
>>64364309>t.future meatcube
I don't know about Russian SVDs but I knew a fat ass Samoan guy who had a .308 Chinese NDM years ago. As long as you took it easy, that thing was a sub-MOA gun all day long with ammo it liked (Federal Gold Medal I think) but it would start to string like crazy if you let it get hot.
>>64364309>>64364348why are ziggershills so blantant?
>>64364329>it is, in combat situations you don't have infinite ammoChrist, with your attitude we'd never have gotten assault rifles to begin with. You expend material not lives to succeed in combat. Spending a few more shots per kill if it means immediate success in the present is well worth it. The rounds expended for the kill are also completely insignificant compared to the amount of ammunition spent on planned fire and maneuver.If you genuinely think a rifleman firing a burst to hit someone instead of semi-automatic fire will somehow crumble the logistics of the unit, then you must have a stroke after you learn what machine guns do on the regular. The use of fire and large quantity expending of ammunition is how militaries achieve tactical victory. Fire superiority is the basis upon which all success is built on.>not in the same sense you lying slime.Training the recruits to give up on their adrenaline-fueled desire to spray full-auto at the enemy like a raghead shitskin IS exactly what indoctrination is about. The indoctrination of turning man into machine and having the troops use semi-automatic, single shots is a part of indoctrination. It's specifically this transformation from a civilian into a soldier that is what indoctrination is about. You're some retarded war tourist who can't pull his head out of his own ass and stop seeing everything through a jingoistic us vs them lense.
>>64364336>>64364355>niggerfaggot war tourists can't even identify Finnish military equipmentYou're so fucking stupid I'm thinking you have to be some kind of black propaganda program.
>>64364322>Pencil barrelAnd what profile of barrel is on the FAL for example?>>64364310>>64364327Independent owners of svd rifles all across the internet confirm 1-2moa on their svd rifles, and most are 1:240mm barrel twist
>>64364356>with your attitude we'd never have gotten assault rifles to begin withare you the same underage retard screeching about battle rifles and salt raffles in every thread?>You expend material not lives to succeed in combat.and full auto expends it wastefully and meaningfully, costing lives in the process.>Spending a few more shots per kill if it means immediate successit doesn't and you don't you lying scum.>If you genuinely think a rifleman firing a burst to hit someone instead of semi-automatic fire will somehow crumble the logistics of the unita rifleman switching to full auto will already waste his chance by doing that rather than sticking to semi so there's no point in doing that.>what machine guns do on the regularhave an entire squad carry ammo bags for them.>Training the recruits to give up on their adrenaline-fueled desire to spray full-auto at the enemy like a raghead shitskin IS exactly what indoctrination is about.and you're the raghead shitskin here all the same.
What's holding back the Russians from having their modern AK's develop in the same way as the M4? Manufacturing techniques? Would they even perform similarly? Reading about how you guys talk about the URGI and competing brands it seems to me that you all have "solved" all the issues and future problems of the gun.
>>64364364>Independent owners of svd rifles all across the internet confirm 1-2moa on their svd rifles, and most are 1:240mm barrel twistThen there's something wrong with the chart, those rifles, or the translation.
>>64364364>Independent owners of svd rifles all across the internet confirm 1-2moa on their svd riflesi am an independent owner of all aks and i concur that they are 0.000001 MOA accurate, trust me bro
>>64364368t. one shot one kill delusional boomer retard
>>64364370corruption
>>64364374>is exposed as the same underage loser seething about battle rifles>gets owned, resorts to screeching buzzwords about boomersyou should've been euthanized years ago, niglet
>>64364348>>64364371Quality commercial ammo or handloads are going to be miles beyond the best of the best commie military ammo they tested those guns with.
>>64364368>and full auto expends it wastefully and meaningfully, costing lives in the process.Meaningfully, yes I agree.>a rifleman switching to full auto will already waste his chance by doing that rather than sticking to semi so there's no point in doing that.The rifleman switches his weapon to full-auto as he shifts onto the final assault, breaches a trench or comes into a situation where that type of fire is deemed useful. Nobody except you is arguing for anyone to fumble with their selector instead of taking a shot at a momentary target.>have an entire squad carry ammo bags for them.Just like the rifle company has an entire supply company carry ammo for them, and how the riflemen carry their own significant ammo load + whatever ammo they can manage. Bringing ammunition to the front is not some great challenge. Modern military logistics do not operate with deprecated WW2 attitudes of "bolt-actions for the infantry so they don't waste ammo.">and you're the raghead shitskin here all the same.Glad you gave up on trying to form counter-arguments.
>>64364383one shot one kill will work this time, unc, i'm sure!
>>64364390>screeching buzzword x2
>>64364393>20000 rounds per kill >my battle rifle will fix this for sure
>>64364389>The rifleman switches his weapon to full-auto as he shifts onto the final assaultthis is deluded drivel>Nobody except you is arguing for anyone to fumble with their selector instead of taking a shot at a momentary target.you're arguing that they should sit on full auto all the time, to to complete and utter detriment of combat effectiveness.>Just like the rifle company has an entire supply company carry ammo for them, and how the riflemen carry their own significant ammo load + whatever ammo they can managemore nonsensical drivel.> Bringing ammunition to the front is not some great challengewasting your ammo needlessly means that anything you bring is worth less than what you could have. it's basically a retard tax that you're proposing. >deprecated WW2 attitudes of "bolt-actions for the infantry so they don't waste ammo."another retarded strawman.>Glad you gave up on trying to form counter-arguments.there's no need to counter something that isn't argumentated beyond crying about indoctrination and coping about the number of trigger pulls.
>>64364399>screeching buzzword x3
>boomerniggers are literally resorting to anti-machine gun rhetoric of "it wastes too many rounds."
>>64364420Rent free retard
>>64364420>retarded child resorts to screeching at shadows that live in his head and haunt him endlessly
>>64364422>>64364425100+ years of battle experience keep coping
>>64364431>t.dead in a ditch
>>64364431spamming buzzwords and spewing strawmen isn't combat experience, jayquan
>>64364412>this is deluded drivelDo you have an actual counter-argument? No?>you're arguing that they should sit on full auto all the time, to to complete and utter detriment of combat effectiveness.I'm arguing they should have their selector on full-auto in situations where fully automatic fire is useful.>more nonsensical drivel.Another non-argument. I see you can't actually argue against what I'm typing out, and so are indirectly admitting I'm right.>wasting your ammo needlessly means that anything you bring is worth less than what you could have. it's basically a retard tax that you're proposing. It is not a needless waste of ammo. You are the one claiming it is based off of emotional non-argumentation.>another retarded strawman.Your attitude is most reminiscent of those old attitudes which weaken combat efficiency of the troops, and that the troops themselves will try to work around given the chance. Troops naturally scrounge up more weapons and ammunition than is ever allotted to them, if they're capable.>there's no need to counter somethingYou admit to being wrong and being incapable of countering my truthful arguments. Thank you for admitting to it.
>>64364467>Do you have an actual counter-argument?muh final assault for muh salt raffle isn't an argument>I'm arguing they should have their selector on full-auto in situations where fully automatic fire is useful.so you're not arguing but evading an argument, got it.>Another non-argument"muh everyone carries ammo therefore the whole squad carrying ammo for the MG isn't a big deal and everyone must spray and pray" is retarded drivel.>you can't actually argue against what I'm typing outthe fact that i need to type the above out already is a loss for me because your idiotic drivel exists only to waste my time.>It is not a needless waste of ammo.it is, it adds nothing to their combat effectiveness in either short or long term.>Your attitude is most reminiscent of those old attitudes which weaken combat efficiency of the troopsyou're literally defending ak faggotry here. you deserve to be killed by your own stupidity.>You admit to being wrong and being incapable of countering my truthful arguments. i admit that there's not a single truthful thing coming from you.
>>64364467>>64364498oh great more ziggerbots trying to shift goalposts, hit your own off button or something already
>>64364191>LMAO. It wasn't even the best GPMG in the world when it released.Lightweight, powerful, reliable, cheap, rugged, dumb-easy to use, optimized for large scale manufacturing...name one western MG that does all of that.
>>64364507impressiev
>>64364498You are making up wild strawmen and pointless insults that have nothing to do with what has been said, and are merely attempting to deflect from the truth onto emotional attitudes. Claiming I'm evading arguments is the purest form of projection on your part. It's obvious you've run out of arguments and are emotionally driven to try to keep the argument going and not admit to being wrong. Have a nice day.>>64364506Just because I like arguing autistically about shit that doesn't matter doesn't make me a bot, you tourist faggot. Isn't there some other Current Thing you should be latching onto by now?
>>64364507AR15 in full auto, that makes it a machine gun
>>64364507lightweight and rugged don't go together. the PK loses accuracy in no time compared to stuff like the FN MAG. you need weight on a machine gun to actually be rugged.
>>64364513>You are making up wild strawmen and pointless insults that have nothing to do with what has been saidthere's nothing wild or inaccurate about my replies, you're just evading an argument because you're a coping ak tranny. run away and blow your brains out and die along with the vile shithole that created you.
>>64364358>>64364390>>64364425>>64364519>>64364525>>64364513Something big must've blown up, anybody know what happened to make ziggers post so many bait threads?
>>64364521Note how I didn't say "accurate" specifically.Note that you're actually not disproving my point about the PKM ruggedness. I've shot both the M249 and the PKM extensively.PKMs run like clockwork. M249s do not. M240s are fine, I guess.>you need weight on a machine gun to actually be ruggedI don't think you understand what rugged means.
>>64364546note how i didn't say "accurate" specifically either, but maintaining accuracy!the PK isn't rugged which is why it loses accuracy very quickly as its continuously fired. a more rugged design like the FN MAG keeps its accuracy and because of it is heavier.
>>64364566>note how i didn't say "accurate" specifically either, but maintaining accuracy!Yeah but accuracy wasn't one of my criteria.I said PKM does "A, B, C, D, E, name a western MG that does all of this" and you're countering with "well it doesn't do F". Fine, let's play, the PKM is carried with 2 spare barrels, so "barrel losing accuracy quickly" isn't a concern. If you're still concerned about accuracy after heating up 2 barrels, you're probably using the MG wrong.>the PK isn't rugged which is why it loses accuracy very quickly as its continuously fired. a more rugged design like the FN MAG keeps its accuracy and because of it is heavier.You seriously do not understand what rugged means.
>>643645933 barrels*
>>64364593That does not matter to accuracy, PKM is outdated in our current tactical environment and our current and future weapon systems perform to a much higher degree of accuracy and precision.
are people really trying to say its better than the M240?
>>64364593it's not using the MG wrong if you use it like you would an FN MAG. the PK just can't maintain its accuracy with sustained fire. it loses accuracy before the barrel is too hot to shoot and doesn't regain it once all the barrels are warmed up.i can't think of it as a rugged general purpose machine gun if shooting it like a medium machine gun causes issues in its functioning. "my hammer is rugged, but if you hammer too hard with it, it bends" kind of thing.
>>64363481>All this seething over getting mogged by an inbred thirdie on a hill with a PKM or SVDSuch is life in the forever war
>>64365927>all that samefagging over multiple threads none of which convince anyone of anything beyond turd world seethe at US
The SCD is just a G3/FAL with a scope, some 2-5 moa rifle that just reaches out more. Western nations opt for sub MOA DMRs instead
>>64365984>muh turdies in muh wallsevery time
>>64365998You literally mentioned thirdie in your post retard
>>64365998Kys shitskin retard
>>64364032
>>64366005>>64366009Looks like something blew up in puccia, I've never seen so many bots reply so fast. Another oil refinery smoking incident perhaps?
>>64366018Are you okay?
>>64366017hk421
Americans wish they could invent a better round for their service rifle that isn't some overpriced hybrid cased nonsense.The Soviets/Russians have always been ahead of the game when it comes to small arms.
>>64366019>>64366103puccia lost, get over it already
>>64366109Huh? You were bragging about Russian weapons.
>>64366109But Ukraine uses the same weapons doe, even the ones in OPs pic
>>64366112>no uI accept your concession>>64366114kys frognigger
>>64366114>But Ukraine uses the same weapons doe,Ukie sodiers literally go out of their way to buy an AR, even with their own money
>>64366117What? Are you okay?
>>64366018falseflagging so poor you can barely guess what it was supposed to mean
>>64366133>>64366136>no u r zigger not me, u must be insane, go to gulag nowyou aren't even trying to hide it, are you?
>>64366198Are you okay?
>>64366198you've been doing this for over a dozen of posts yet i still can't see what you're trying to achieve here
>>64363487He's not wrong. They've had trouble matching 70s Soviet tech for decades.
>the level of discussion ITTI can only imagine that something of similar levels of retardation eventually lead to the NGSW...
>>64363481ahem..
>>64366229>>64366239Why do you keep responding FSBfag? You better show up in the next rekt thread, I want to see you suffer
>>64366938Why did you swap from hyping up slavshit to whatever the fuck this is?
>>64366938Are you okay?
>>64366941See >>64366198You already got called out stupid ziggermutt
>>64366951No seriously, why did you swap from hyping up slavshit to this? You called me a zigger because I dont worship slavshit. Are you okay?
>>64366951You don't seem okay
>>64363481>ziggerslop OP>thread full of schizo ziggershillsWhat blew up this time>>64366960>>64366951KYS goalpost shifting faggot
Someone come get your guy, he's not able to keep a cohesive point.
>>64366883>lmgGet that gay nigger shit outta here.
>>64366972>>64366967>>64366960>>64366959>>64366951None of you are okay, please seek immediate help from a professional therapist.
Too embarrased that he replied to the wrong post or actual mental illness, take your pic.
>>64363800>arguing over one and a half inch
>>64366978>>64366998>>64366979>>64366967>>64366985>if I shitpost hard enough maybe glorious monke king of puccia will win!Take your off topic shitposts and GTFO back to >>>/pol/
>>64363912BC don't mean shit in a 4 MOA rifle
>>64367002This is pathetic
>>64367002>tfw we still don't know what blew up and why there are so many zlop postsI don't give a fuck if it's some secret squirrel shit I wanna see the rekt footage :(
>>64367002>>64367019Holy fuck kys, nobody fucking cares about piggerstan or whatever thirdie shithole you're from
>>64364032>tfw noodle arms lanklet pogI love shooting the 240 but goddamn it's a bitch to carry around
>>64367031>the zigger revealed himself
>>64363481The current excuse 9f a program can't decide if it's trying to beat insurgents with pkms or lvl 4 plates and I doubt it's gonna be doing either https://www.mediafire.com/file/91xl8q839hn28uj/Trent_NGSW-EWS_Fellowship_Project_%2528Final%2529.pdf/file
>>64364032I think developers can and have. Not just the LWS but mk46s and 48s.
>>64367094Surely the stupid Americans will fall in 2 more weeks :^)
>>64364083>This is very clearly reflected in the reality that the PKM isn't as commonly used in similar roles as the FN MAG.That's partially because the doctrine is different. The weight is due to the way it's constructed more, using a system that doesn't have some parts others must have. We could've gotten many lighter alternatives including the Stoner, whose genius designer rightfully knew program requirements were bullshit.
Friendly reminder that since the US Civil war no military conflict between industrialized nations has had it's outcome significantly affected by the combatants choice of individually portable arms; it literally doesn't matter in any meaningful way. You could have given every member of the Axis a Garand and stuck the US army/Marines with Mausers and Arisakas and besides a minor change in casualty numbers nothing would have really changed.
>>64367002skin status?
>>64364370The first iterations of the AK-12 were mindlessly copying the west without knowing why anything works, then the next iterations are filled with corruption. If you ask me, they're better off looking at the SIG 550 for inspiration to ape given closer design similarities.
>>64363481They seem to be testing a newer gun based on the PKM called the PKZ. From what I can tell, they're aiming for relatively light MG that can keep up with riflemen on the move.
>>64367116True enough. Small arm have their place but they haven't been decisive war winners for decades. Tanks, drones, aircraft, stuff like that's the current hotness.
>>64363481>No good domestic optics>sof use western ones exclusively
>>64366130I've heard the reverse, that many western mercenaries ended up choosing 5.45 because all sides including Russia uses it thus easier logistics and capturing enemy supplies. But it could be a 5.45 AR. Probably newer than the 74s and not even 74Ms Ukraine uses.
>>64364609>PKM is outdated in our current tactical environment and our current and future weapon systems perform to a much higher degree of accuracy and precision.What about putting it on a drone? They do that over there and the lighter weight makes flying smoother.
>>64367110This. Eugene Stoner himself declined to submit the Stoner to the SAW program because he thought the requirements were stupid. Mainly the double feed but also a 5.56 machinegun being that light but somehow expecting to put out GPMG fire, being emplaced, being QCB, etc. The whole point of the 63A and subsequent developments was an automatic assault gun for special forces to go in, shit out a wall of lead then leave and service it. The M249 would go on to have the exact problems he predicted, reliability dropped, several features proved useless and it needed to lightened a lot to be as effective in special force use(Mk46). The US would go on to replace the M60 with the 240 and keeping troops light would become an even bigger joke.
>>64363587This is one of the worst takes I have ever seen on here.
>>64363487He's not wrong, the US military has always been turbo retarded when it comes to small arms. It all started in the 1870s when the army adopted a single shot rifle while every average citizen had tube fed repeating lever guns and the Army has never picked a good service rifle ever since. The army got lucky with the garand which is why they made sure to replace it with shit as soon as possible.I will take OPs claim one step further and remind everyone that the chad reusable RPG-7 completely mogs the virgin disposable M72 LAW and AT4 as well.
>>64367331No
>>64367331What blew up this time ziggershill?
>>64367378>>64367392Post guns
>>64364242>weight: 9kgSeriously? All this futuristic shit and no one can make an MG that weighs like 7kg? What gives?
>>64367420Its a material limitation. Lighter weight is possible if you don't mind a 50 grand gun
>>64367140I would go so far as to say that until the computer age tanks and aircraft were not decisive in conventional conflicts, merely the numbers built and how they were used. The Axis and Allies could have switched aircraft, tanks, ship designs ect and the primary result would have been a quicker Allied victory, particularly in Naval matters. The UK would have suffered greatly due to Germany having strategic bombers but they could not have been made decisive numbers, see 'strategic press program' for the reason why.>But Russia would have taken even more losses if Germany had something like the M4 and forced it's allies to standardize it!I said Allied victory, not Soviet. Besides, they would be getting thousands of lend lease BF-190s, Zeros and Stugs a month.
>>64367428>BF-190s
>>64367476Sorry, i got my BF's and FW's switched. Anywho the Lend Lease 109s and 190s would provide protection for the Zero's who would be doing long range attrition against the German Carrier Fleets assisting the siege of Leningrad no doubt supported by American Volunteers flying Stuka torpedo bombers. No doubt the long range, superior fuses and shallow drop depth of American/UK torpedoes would be of great use in attacks against Axis carriers especially in their harbors or shallow Baltic waters. >long range, superior fuses and shallow drop depth of American/UK torpedoesSentences only ever written on /k/.
>>64367428What the absolute fuck are you talking about. The Allies and Axis had completely different naval compositions, designs and missions. The only Axis power with any design relevant to the Allies would be Japan and their designs were inferior by 42, and their entire force mission planning missed the message and focused heavily on the slower flagships while the Allies went full speed on carriers. German and RN battles are cute but hardly worth mentioning and even if they managed not to ruin their tinpot Navy by 43 the RN would have had US carriers circling the island and doing harassment on Axis airfields and ships in the channel
The point is the designs were largely meaningless to the outcome of the war, economics and resources mattered more. Strategies would have adopted to tactical use of the systems, their numbers and logistical support would have not. Before the huge technological disparity created by the computer ago the actual weapons didn't significantly determine the outcome of wars. >In the Pacific each Japanese carrier group is swarmed by several times their numbers of American Yamato class battleships escorted by dozens of Scharnhorst class battle cruisers, submarine carrier launched US torpedo bombers are a serious menace as are US U-Boats>On Iwo Jima the Japanese guns are running dry as the Americans launch the 12th wave of Fiat light tanks from dozens of Maru class assault ships onto the shores within three days, USMC Panzerfaust teams begin using the wreaked tanks as cover to dig out the entrenched IJA M3s. While their multiple turrets serve them well there are simply too many targets and not enough ammo>Do 17s from China start striking mainland Japan >US V-1 production reaches 10K per month>Daring Commando raid with Storch light aircraft in Formosa lead by Wild Bill Donovan frees Chiang Kai-shekThe weapons used and developed by pre computer age industrialized societies don't matter, production, quality control and logistics do. With small arms this is still the case, or more to the point it is largely irrelevant. This also applies to most crew served weapons as well; The outcome of a conflict will not be decided by M2 vs Kord, M4 vs AK or 81mm vs 82mm mortar.
>>64367709>Completely misses the point
>>64363481>>64363587>SVD > M1D/M21 - The SVD is the greatest rifle ever made.Someone post that webm of a slow-mo closeup of an SVD firing and you can see the receiver, stock, and dust cover all flex and warp in different directions
>>64368066Which is completely normal.The question is how you tune all those systems to end up with good accuracy from an extremely light long slender barrel rifle.
>>64367420Ahem. See >>64364059
>>64363587This is true even today. For all of it's faults, the AK-12 is far superior to the M7 Sig Spear. We've gone backwards in small arms design.>inb4 Russian shillThe Ukrainians use captured AK-12s.
>>64368245>>64368272>>64368279>>64368282MANDICKSUCKER POSTING PICTURES OF HIS FAVORITE MANDICKS! XAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAXAA!!!!!!!!
>>64366017>>64366023these anons are the only ones itt that knowAlso search pics in other desuarchive threadsHK 421 is the 'light-to-medium', 'heavier-than-SAW' machine gun
>>64368365I have yet to form an opinion as to this fellow trip/namefag due to lack of information and exposure. Is he/her/they:>Pro or anti Russian?>Pro or anti DPRK? >Note being pro DPRK does not exclude you from being anti-Russia.>Is this Mandic person a jerk or crazy person like Aramatard?>Have they ever insulted the dignity of the DPRK or myself? /k/, should i hate this person, ignore them or roast them? You decide**All logical decisions by Norktard null and void if i get a ziplock bag with one of Kim Yo Jong's socks inside it from the DPRK Embassy or designated representatives.
>>64367428>Besides, they would be getting thousands of lend lease BF-190s, Zeros and Stugs a month.They were pushing the Germans back before most of the lend lease arrived but ended up providing much logistics. The Soviets eventually got their shit together and the Germans were screwed, though much faster with lend lease and with less starvation.
>>64368471>I have yet to form an opinion as to this fellow trip/namefag due to lack of information and exposure.Mandic has been on /k/ for 10 plus years dude
>>64368361Reminds me of this review https://youtu.be/l0VDS1G6GEI?si=SVDS6GdFI9ZEYOlgAfter a nasty baptism by fire, they fixed it up a bit. Besides some mounted parts not being as rigid as it needs, he concludes that the new version is alright and will unfortunately be a very good weapon once they fix that.But my biggest question about the SIG, besides if they can be trusted not to fuck up, is if there's a need. Maybe it's just survivorship bias but I'm not hearing massive demand for 6.8 in Ukraine, 5.45 seems to work for both sides.
>>64367331you're just wrong.so wrong I'm sure you are doing it on purpose, so I'm not even going to bother explaining why.
>>64368467dont forget the optic
>>64369057And i have been here longer than him not to mention being alive longer than him, you didn't answer my questions. Am i supposed to hate him and get into a internet /k/ beef with him? I currently see no reason to do so despite a few messages to the contrary. I am very hard to contact personally but i see alot of messages that say i'm supposed to hate the guy, that really raises my suspicion level.US based advocates of a USA/DRPK alliance are pretty rare, i am very careful who i talk to.
>>64368467What about FN's latest thing? It's supposed to be pretty light.
>>64363487except he's not wrong, they're basically all kalashnikov derivatives and they're all far easier to maintain and operate too
meanwhile in cohen sig land... it's an absolute fucking disaster with sigs shooting their owners
None of it matters. As long as you have rough parity to your foes in small arms then your choice of small arms is meaningless. Your logistics, kill chain and tactics matter more. Any 'innovation' in small arms besides keeping pace with your foes is a waste of resources, you would be better off investigating novel ways of fighting like gas in WW1 or drones in Ukraine.
>>64364609>That does not matter to accuracyCool, because IDGAF about accuracy. It's an MG.Again, read: >>64364507>Lightweight, powerful, reliable, cheap, rugged, dumb-easy to use, optimized for large scale manufacturing...name one western MG that does all of that.Stop moving the goalposts. You still haven't named a western MG that does all that without trying to shove accuracy in the argument.
>>64368471>Pro or anti Russian?Serbian or Serbian-tier ziggerlover>Pro or anti DPRK?Unknown>Is this Mandic person a jerk or crazy person like Aramatard?Yes. He (or it, I wouldn't be surprised if it's an automated program) has been on this board and possibly other forums at the same time as Armatard. He used to post more frequently but unlike the genuine Armatard, he isn't dead and still shows up. He almost never sends actual text messages in response the OP of threads and his posting style is primarily image dumping with the implied message of anti-US, anti-Ukrainian, and pro-Russian sentiment which is oftentimes only tangentially related to the thread topic. He also outed himself by spamming blacked bbc porn, which the people of this board have not forgotten. At least with Armatard he was a professional retard and lolcow who provided endless entertainment and ragebait, so much so that he is known and hated in Russian language circles. This guy is just lame. >Have they ever insulted the dignity of the DPRK or myself?Unknown
>>64369540>Cool, because IDGAF about accuracy. It's an MG.and that's why zigger small arms will always be trash-tier. spray and pray doctrine for the lowest common denominator.
>>64369560As long as Russia as a geo-political entity dies and the DPRK profits i'm happy with the outcome. >SerbianNot on my list of people or nations i care about.>Have they ever insulted the dignity of the DPRK or myself?>UnknownI shall stay my wrath for the moment.
>>64369540nta, but the mk48lls most of what you laid out.>lightweight 0.7 kg or 1.6 lbs more than a pkm>powerful7.62 nato>reliableyeah>ruggedyeah>dumb-easy to useas easy as a pkm. they all share the same lineage.>optimized for large scale manufacturingthat's subjective, and any mass manufactured gun technically counts.now as for cheap, you got me there.it is cheaper, but that's largely irreverent for any military not in africa.
>>64368066The M21 does the same thing and also has a pencil barrel
>>64364376The whole world was robbed.
>>64363481Let me guess, another refinery?
>>64365988SVDs are plenty accurate, their main limitation is that any pressure on the handguard will also shift POI like mad. Honestly the FAL suffers from the same thing
>>64363587The SVD is good for it's time, but the greatest rifle ever made? Yeah right.
