>could have have been the next M16 in terms of great leap forward or firearm tech>all we had to do was refine it and work out the kinks just like we did with the M16>choose M14 2: Fudd Boogaloo insteadWhat causes this mindset?The Greatest Generation saw the potential of new firearm tech and admitted the M14 was a mistake but Boomers are just completely mentally calcified and refuse to move on.
Ok look I'll be nice, what advantages does this gun have over the Spear, and on top of that, what advantages does it have over the M4 platform to warrant such a win in the program being deserved, and warrant such a replacement of an already proven weapon system?
>>64384013I should also note, I am not defending the spear in any way, shape or form, I just wanna know what this does better than that, and then what this does better than the m4
>>64384000>What causes this mindset?they dropped the LSAT
Five years ago, I lost thirty thousand fudds in the blink of an eye, and the world just fuckin' watched. Tomorrow, there will be no shortage of regret, no shortage of going back to the M4 Carbine but with a new handguard and a polymer 1911 as the new sidearm. I know you understand.
>>64384000>Boomers are just completely mentally calcified and refuse to move on.Keep seething while I laugh at you.
>>64384013Cased telescoped polymer ammo is probably the only actual innovation left for regular ammo, this would have be n it
The GI's went from M1903's to M1 Garands to M14's and then to AR's. They understood innovation and when a certain kind of weapon (1903-M14) was at it's and point and one needed a totally new platform for a new era.
Any perceived issues with the mechanism were probably insurmountable, insofar as the Textron entry had an extra decade of development from the LSAT program. But that said, there is no circumstance where NGSW isn't shit regardless of what wins, because its a flawed on a conceptual level. Any M4 replacement should recognize its strengths and expand upon them with no downsides, which is to say its light (both gun and ammo) accurate and controllable so it should be lighter, more accurate and perhaps more controllable without any compromise on 5.56 ballistics. We have the technology. None of this 8 moa every-rifleman-a-sniper 80k psi bullshit. Thats essentially what LSAT was, but we were friends with Russia and China during GWOT and therefore there were no peer-war pressures; so a lot of those late 2000s modernization programs (Pike, XM25, switchblade, etc) weren't really taken seriously and died on the vine.
>>64384066Polymer cases, lith alum ar. Maybe an icar mid frame for 6 arc or whatever. Gg the end
>>64384000The machinegun was great, the rifle was plagued with reliability issues. One kaboomed during testing land that was the final nail.t. knower
>>64384000>Boomers are just completely mentally calcified and refuse to move on.It's not just the M14, they're bringing back .30-06 also.Apparently the army is working on a medium machine gun firing a 6.8x63mm. They are not interested in the 338 norma mag (8.6x63mm) anymore it seems, and the new project is a cartridge in x63mm more or less similar to .30-06 but with the 6.8 common projectile.
>>64384000The people in charge changed the requirements from "lower the soldier's burden" to "muh overmatch", demanding a high-speed, heavy bullet out of a short barrel. What should have been a 5-6mm round effective to >400m (or 600-800 out of a SAW) suddenly became a 7mm magnum supposedly capable of busting chest plates at >800m. Nevermind that almost all infantry combat occurs at close ranges, or that soldier accuracy goes way, way down when under fire and that the best options for long-range combat involve guided munitions, which are getting lighter, cheaper, and easier to use all the time.
>>64384144>6.8x63mmyou got a sauce?
>>64384173>you got a sauce?It was mentionned in the FN IWS thread.https://soldiersystems.net/2025/10/08/fn-delivers-weapon-system-test-samples-to-dods-irregular-warfare-technical-support-directorate/Check the comments from Eric G (soldiersystems.net editor, so he knows what he's talking about and is well informed). "The Army has an effort afoot to double down on the 6.8 projectile, to create a 6.8×63 cartridge for use in a medium machine gun.""I’m glad you picked up the .30-06 implications.They haven’t been committed to .338 for the past two years. That’s why the requirement remains in limbo, the Army doesn’t know what it wants to do.While the Marine Corps remains committed to a 338NM medium machine gun, it is going to be tough without the Army adopting one as well. The ammo is going to be VERY expensive for a single user.""They aren’t saying anything publicly about this but it’s well known in industry. So far, it is a cartridge the Army is looking at. If they go that route they’ll use the current projectiles. The Army and SOCOM have been looking into high pressure cases and they have solicited industry for solutions. No idea where this will go really as the Army has developed numerous calibers that were never adopted but experimented with over many years."
>>64384000 (checked)Imagine high-pressure 5.56 FABRL in a CT case. Half the weight of brass, short enough to fit in a grip magazine. Riflemen could carry 5.56 lethality in little 11.5 inch barrel MP7/LC Charger-style guns, which lets them carry loitering munitions and 30mm airburst grenade launchers. Your SAW gunners could shoot for days because they have obscene amounts of ammo and the chamber stays ice cold. Failures to feed and extract become notions as obsolete as keeping your powder horn dry. It's actual sci-fi shit.>>64384013The most important thing is that it would have kickstarted CT adoption, see above. However, of the three NGSW contestants, it was the lightest.The whole idea of NGSW was retarded in the first place, it was hard to make a good service rifle with the Army's projectile at speed requirement, and certainly nothing better than the M4. They just wanted a battle rifle. GD had something going on with their recoil control system, so it would have been the least shitty to use, and the composite ammo was neat. Textron would have been the least shitty to carry, and I believe had constant recoil so it wasn't too bad. Sig had none of that.
>>64384208>>64384144>>64384000I quite like the 6mm projectile range, but I feel like I have to have missed something huge at some point in the last 10 years: what the fuck happened to 6.5mm? If we're talking about maintaining smaller, carbine form-factor and weight rifles for typical infantry ranges and 5.56 performance expectations, then 5-6mm is the way. But if the goal became oVeRmAtCh, then why not settle for something more reasonable than punching plates at 600m (I recall it being 600 not 800 but I could be wrong) like 300 or so, and going for a 6.5mm cartridge option in a midsize AR frame?I've sperged about this before, usually in FN IWS threads. It's a good rifle but I feel like the entire ".264 cartridge in a mid-size AR" concept is a fucking goldmine of mid-range utility that's barely being explored, really.>>64384271>Imagine high-pressure 5.56 FABRL in a CT case. Half the weight of brass, short enough to fit in a grip magazine.>Riflemen could carry 5.56 lethality in little 11.5 inch barrel MP7/LC Charger-style guns, which lets them carry loitering munitions and 30mm airburst grenade launchers.This. This anon fucking gets it. 5.56 CT would be the literal peak of performance you could get not only from the caliber but from it's weight and size savings..
>>64384000The ammo was cool but just look at that recoil. Intermediate calibers are objectively better for infantry combat ranges and that won't change unless some sort of dramatic recoil reduction system is invented. Hitting targets beyond 600m is achieved far better with guided munitions than with a bullet. We'll figure this out when we lose WW3
>>64384013CT ammo offers higher pressures, lower chamber/barrel heat, a simplified internal mechanism, and all while being lighter weight than normal ammo
>>64384000it is inexplicable to me why they didn't use aft feed to solve the ergonomics issues of the forward ejection port. They had already designed it!
>>64384114>The machinegun was greatLSAT was ready to go 10 years ago. How do we uncancel it?
>>64384637I'm not sure, but it could be the problem Kori vaguely describes in this article. I'm not sure if this is the design she was referencing though.https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/03/18/interview-kori-phillips-program-officer-lsat-ctsas-part-2-ammunition-technical-discussion-contd/obligatory LSAT/CTSAS bullpup. Your pic has the quad stack magazine, this render has the double stack.
>>64384525Despite sitting in front of convoluted slideshows every day, the brass doesn't seem to realize that novel systems like loitering munitions and airburst grenades are the future of infantry and that rifles and carbines are mostly there to support them. They seem to think chink soldiers all wear Space Marine suits and that only 6.8 is magically capable of piercing them. It's all so tiresome.They're obsessed with the caliber choice too. To them, all there is to a cartridge is the diameter of the projectile. They bought into the general purpose cartridge meme (which is actually pretty feasible), but in the worst way possible: just necking down .308, shooting out of short barrels, and pretending it's an assault rifle cartridge. How did this even happen?
>>64384114They originally wanted to build the rifle around the same belt feed mechanism but got vetoed. I'm honestly not sure how the machinegun worked on the inside. Maybe it was better suited to the ammo than magazine feed.
>>64385374I think they are afraid that 556 won't cut it against ground drones. It would probably be simple to make sub 60kg drones proof against those calibres but with the new ammo that won't be possible.
>>64384013The ammo weighs literally half that of the Sig. It actually weighs less than 5.56 despite being as powerful as 7.62. It also uses a very simple action that's immune to many of the common failures of typical firearms.
>>64385374>To them, all there is to a cartridge is the diameter of the projectile.Clearly not, if that was the case we'd just have M4s in 6.8 SPC II. The requirements for the NGSW required it to shoot a specific projectile at a specific speed that make roughly the same muzzle energy as .308.>>64385374>the general purpose cartridge meme (which is actually pretty feasible)It's a shit idea. Instead of a general purpose cartridge we should be leaning even harder into the spread. Something like .204 Ruger or even .20 VarTarg on one hand, and something like .300 Winmag on the other, obviously both CT. If you need to cut out cartridges to simplify logistics, make it everything between 7.62 and .50. Hell, you might even be able to get rid of .50 as well, a magnum MMG could fill most of the roles you'd use a .50 for and the Mk.19 can fill the rest.
>>64384271>>64384525>imagine a weapon cartridge that still causes all of the problems inherent to very high pressure operation because I'm a retard autist one note take wannabe scientist who can't understand materials limitsHow about instead I write a lengthy sentence.
>>64386274>I'm a retard autist one note take wannabe
>>64386335yes, yes, I am glad you accepted it.sorryor happy for youidk, fuckya mudda
The cased telescoped shit is dead and buried. Textron completely dropped it after their NGSW bid failed and no one else is interested in it.
>>64386350>Textron completely dropped itSource?
>>64384000>ejects at the support handShits where it eats, or rather shits in your hand... This would've been a good design if combined with the General Dynamics one, bullpup so your support hand is further away from the wonky ejection port and with polymer ammo that runs cold. It would also be ambidextrous due to the ejection port being further forward.
>>64384013Weapons advancement is now hindered by fucking xoomer and yoomer uncs and their stupid gay ARslop.
>>64386339>he believes his opinion mattersTell us more. Spend extra time typing.>>64386350>The cased telescoped shit is dead and buried.Delusional hopium.>Textron completely dropped itGonna need a source, anon.
>>64384000this ejection is retarded for combat, having your hand in the wrong place will cause the empties to stack up inside the weapon and jam after a few rounds
>>64384000>bullpup with full length barrel>great barrel longevity>half the recoil of 7.62 NATO with the same stopping power>alright so basically we'll take the giant HK416>cuts the barrel off anywayNo but really how the fuck is this shit allowed? Do multiple trials, get responses on each rifle from real soldiers and improve them on each next round, THEN choose the army's next rifle.They just set out a bunch of requirements then said FUCK YOU just to make le big AR win. Why even bother entering the competition? God I hate them so much
>>64386357There's been absolutely 0 mention of it anywhere, no further contracts, no nothing since the end of the NGSW competition. It's time to quit coping and accept reality.
>>64384000Textron had 20 years and shitloads of money in the LSAT program to make a good gun and they couldn't manage it. CT is probably just a dead end and no amount of spreadsheet minmaxing will change that.
>>64385681Baby got that swing.
>>64386897the original lsat machine gun was nice and compact and handy, then it somehow turned into this gigantic rectangular thing. How??
>>64385904How?You're not going to armor the drone enough to defeat hits and both calibers just make a small hole in the light structure of a drone.
>>64384637>bulpup barrel layout for extra length/range, but with a regular front mag for ease of manipulation We were robbed, bros...
>>64386969Big cartridge.
>>64387111it also came in belt fed
>>64386658>>64386891The retards in charge of US military procurement straight-up didn't want 5.56 CT, so of course Textron dropped it. No point spending more money on something nobody will adopt.
>>64384000come to the conclusion that everyone should have just been given a REAPR if they were reasonably worried about hitting the next guy over yonder.That gun fucks.Otherwise keep the ar.
>>64384000>What causes this mindset?mutt education
>>64386274There are no insurmountable material limits here. Smokeless powder required new barrel metallurgy that was at times prohibitively expensive too. The main advantage of high pressure cartridges, shorter barrels, is much less important, but in the future a superalloy vapor deposition coated barrel could become as mundane as a chrome-lined one is today.
>>64384271>Imagine high-pressure 5.56 FABRL in a CT case.it ain't gonna engrave properly due to long free-bore.Just use polymer case. There are no advantages from going CT whatsoever.
>>64386658They barely mentioned it even while the competition was running.
>makes 556 handgun magazine length>Imagine the 300blk fotys Wouldn’t plastic telescoping rounds feed like ass from magazines? See every shotgun fed from a magazine ever.
>>64387287Not how it works. CT is actually more accurate despite the long freebore.
>>64385256we were robbed
>>64386441The Socom 4 star that joined SIG right at the end made out like a bandit.
>>64387149SOCOM got the Reaper, the poor bloody infantry got stuck with more Sigger Slop.
>>64387582SOCOM selected MG338, not REAPR.
>>64387516I assume you mean box magazine-fed shotguns since tubular magazines are very reliable. CT cases aren't as squishy as shotshells and don't have rims, they have an entirely different way of feeding and ejecting. Basically, a plunger pushes on the back of a cartridge in the magazine (it's single feed) and directly into the chamber. No feed ramps or anything like that, the first cartridge in the magazine is in directly aligned with the chamber in the down position. Both extraction and ejection are made in the same direction.
>>64384114how was the bullpup like? The MG probably wasn't that great since it also used 20rd mags. IMO the SIG was the best there or possibly the Textron. what about the FN, which didn't make it to the final trials?
ALL of the NGSW guns had hilarious recoil due to the high pressure rounds they were using. this was never going to be a good choice for regular infantry.this was simply a bad idea.
>>64387784>how was the bullpup like? Absolutely abysmal, it actually lost to the Sig in head to head competition.>The MG probably wasn't that great since it also used 20rd mags.There was no NGSW-MG. Much like with the Marines and their M27 IAR, the XM250 NGSW-AR is only replacing the M249 in the AR role in the near future. The M249 will presumably be retained in the LMG role until the Army purges 5.56 from the inventory entirely.
>>64384208>That’s why the requirement remains in limbo, the Army doesn’t know what it wants to do.>While the Marine Corps remains committed to a 338NM medium machine gun, it is going to be tough without the Army adopting one as well. The ammo is going to be VERY expensive for a single user."I'm am once requesting to why the marines are supposedly the retarded branch when they don't appear to he nearly as stupid as the army.
>>64387909They shoukd just use the special sauce on the current 5.56 and 7.62 and be done with it.
>>64386897Yeah that looks better thought out vs that retarded vertical sliding chamber.
>>64384000The whole program was stupid. Their master plan appeared to be to create the heaviest, most uncomfortable platform they could come up with, to saddle some retarded private with half the ammo at twice the weight.Meanwhile, the M4 still meets our needs.We’d have been better off rechambering an AR10 to 6.5 Creedmore, and calling it good enough.
>>64387942in what way absymal?by MG i meant the bullpup AR/ LMG. that was probably the worst one.
The only real answer is to engage in Burger Fuckery.Right now, the rest of NATO is moving to AR style rifles and they’re keeping the 5.56 we basically forced upon them after forcing the 7.62 NATO on them.First we must take the .280 British and slightly alter the neck, to create the .280 American.America should then adopt a bullpup rifle and chamber it in .280 American and encourage NATO adoption.Fuck performance, fuckery is always more important than actual results.
>>64388300FN is doing something with a similar round to the mememoor with steel cases even.
>>643883326.5 really seems to strike a sweet spot between Mass and velocity.I don’t consider it a meme at all.
>>64386658Textron didn't talk about it at all, they were wholly uninterested in sharing information with c*vilians. We wouldn't know jack about the program if it weren't for Nathaniel Fitch. I still think it's more or less dead though, unfortunately.And speaking of Nathaniel, half of the shit CT and LSAT gets online can be traced back to one dude called Joshua who claimed to have participated in the program in the TFB comment section.
>>64387287>There are no advantages from going CT whatsoever.the patent documents and interviews with the program leader provide a lengthy list of benefits. Don't make shit up.
>>64387516CT ammo is rimless and in fact feeds more reliably than normal weapons
>>64384000>Worst gun in the trial that instantly lost >Dumbass placement for ejecting rounds where you'd naturally place your hand>Nah bro this one should've won I get it you're all contrarians but God damn think critically
>>64388985It's not a great place on a rifle, but for a belt-fed machine gun it's perfectly valid, and CT is ideal for machineguns. Much of the small arms discourse historically misses the holistic view of an infantry unit. A platoon fights at long range with MGs, so boomer rifles are unnecessary; and when on foot it moves at the speed of the slowest men - who are the Javelin and machinegun crews.Cutting MG ammo weight speeds up the whole unit. If we could keep M4s for the individual and swap in a 6.5 CT for the M240s, that would have been perfection.
>>64388950>leader provide a lengthy list of benefits.like?No weight savings over TV case?Poor compatibility with long ogive bullets?Random accuracy loss due to chamber misalignment?20 rds magazines with size of the 25 rds convectional magazines?
Textron gives even less o a shit about the civvie market than HK.SIG's one redeeming quality is they would sell your 7 year old nephew an MG338 if they could.
>>64389016>lighter weight>lower volume>higher pressures>vastly reduced chamber and barrel heat up>simplified ejection and extraction>improved accuracy>reduced recoilall vs comparable conventional ammunition of course
>>64389051Based but then why don’t they? A question you should ask before you hand anyone your money.
bigger bullet better lol
>>64389009 No, no it's not because again it's in a spot where you will MOST LIKELY HOLD IT
>>64389060>lighter weightNo weight savings over TV case>lower volumelel pic. Textron boondoggle 20rds 6.8 magazine has same height as the 7.62x51 NATO PMAG 25 so much for the "lower volume" meme>higher pressuresplastic ammo with steel head can do 80K easy (and up to 100K see Abrams tank ammo)>vastly reduced chamber and barrel heat upjust doing plaslitc ammo like TV already does that (extracted ammo is cool to touch near zero heat transfer into chamber)>simplified ejection and extractionmoving chambers is adding complexity not simplifying >improved accuracylong free-bore and chamber misalignment educe accuracy>reduced recoilhas nothing to do with the case
>>64384025>Keep seething while I laugh at you.If I had a nickel that came up to me while I was out with my children to tell me how much they hated theirs id be a multi millionaire by now. Y'all aren't really the ones to tell anyone to cope considering you got mind broken by reproduction lmao.Also fuck off and stay out of parks/zoos. They're for children not manbabies on their deathbed.
>>64389391The Textron cartridge was a couple of grams lighter than the TV cartridge.
>>64389422no
>>64384000This is going to be the next G11, where retards jerk themselves raw over it for the next 20 years until the actual test results are declassified and it turns out it was actually a huge piece of shit.
>>64389466>This is going to be the next G11Textron gun is literally offshot of the G11.They picked telescoped layout because they started with copying G11 caseless ammo first.
>>64389016>No weight savings over TV case?It's around 10%-20% lighter than polymer composite cases. >Poor compatibility with long ogive bullets?Conventional exposed bullet cartridges can get very long with long ogive bullets too. If anything, with CT you can design a polymer insert to seat secant ogive bullets deeper at the cost of internal volume.>Random accuracy loss due to chamber misalignment?This is the only published and publicly available study on the effect of chamber misalignment on impact point deviation: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214914715000823My personal interpretation is that it's not bad with reasonable tolerances. The control chamber had a first maximum yaw angle of 1.55°, which is slightly better than M855 out of test barrels. The chambers misaligned by 0.01 in had maximum yaw angles of 5.0-5.3°. This may sound bad, but 0.01 in is about the thickness of three sheets of 20 lb copy paper. According to ARES, another, unpublished study conducted by ARDEC concluded that CT cases align bullets better than conventional metallic cases, all else being equal.>20 rds magazines with size of the 25 rds convectional magazines?Yes, CT cartridges are fatter than conventional designs, but they're also much shorter. It works out to about a 12% volume reduction for 5.56 CT. The advantages of shorter overall length have already been covered ITT. A quad stack CT magazine would look like an obelisk, which is interesting. I believe the 5.56 LSAT carbine designs settled on a 25-round magazine.>>64389060>improved accuracyUltimately I think less freebore is ultimately better, CT just compensates in other ways to end up being about as accurate.>reduced recoilI don't think the more efficient powder burn is that noticeable.
>>64389391>moving chambers is adding complexity not simplifyinga simple cam is more complex that a bolt with multiple small pieces for an extractor and for an ejector?
>>64389466That's a rather unfair way of looking at the G11 and people who aren't old and crusty or contrarian and reactionary enough to consciously reject innovation. The G11 was a product of its era. The technological advancements that allowed for its technically revolutionary but practically flawed design should not have been forgotten just because our understanding of small arms doctrine changed a little.
>>64389391Wh-where'd you get this pic?
>>64389466It makes a lot more sense when you find out this turd was just the latest in a long, long line of turds shat out by AAI. They've been grifting government contracts for stupid bullshit like this since the 50s.
>>64389605AAI is the Kel-Tec of the MIC, and I mean that in a good way. You're just a hater. Ares Inc., Stoner's company, initially cooperated with AAI for LSAT CL+CT. Maybe because Ares held the patents and/or know-how for CT from their ARES-Olin AIWS.>required viewinghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKBJp9Ea8jg
>>64389595https://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun
>>64389582>The technological advancements that allowed for its technically revolutionary but practically flawed design should not have been forgotten just because our understanding of small arms doctrine changed a little.Caseless is complete boondoggle and German retards misdirected small arms development twice (first time with G11 second time with Textron CT).Combustible case with metal case is what you want as holy grail of ammunition development. Pro tip: technology actually works, adopted and battle proven in many wars already. (what is the difference between caseless and combustible case? Its another story but difference is massive)
>>64389753Please elaborate. How exactly is combustible case more reliable for autoloaders? How is it cleaner? You seem to also dislike CT, isn't it much worse at temperature management than any kind of polymer case? Feel free to add to these, I have even more questions.
>>64387577Very severely underrated post.The irony of the situation is that his influence on the Sig design being picked is rooted in "AR15 always good, big steps forward always bad" lines of thinking that have become SF calling cards in small arms discussion, but the result is a rifle that is bad in nearly all the ways that make the AR15 good, ends up effectively not stepping forwards at all, but taking a big sideways step instead, and will not be adopted at all by SF whose small arms usage and procurement expertise credibility he borrowed to make his case that it was the right pick to make.
>>64384000Retarded ejection
>>64389798Combustible with a stub case gives a full traditional chamber seal while removing the other 80% of the case.
>>64389990That doesn't answer my other questions. The G11 did not completely solve the obturation problem, but later caseless designs like LSAT's used a gas-activated two-part expanding chamber similar to the one described in this patent https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/5c/57/d9/517847fb5fba2e/US5777256.pdfBasically, the expanding gas pushes a ring-shaped element into the edges to achieve obturation, like a Nagant but operated by combustion rather than the trigger. This is similar to what CT does, only CT does it in the two-part case instead of the chamber, and relies on the movement of the bullet (which is firmly attached to the endcap) instead of gas. It is also very similar to what combustible case does, as the ring-shaped sealing element (the stub head) is just part of the bullet instead of the chamber and also contains the rim.Caseless and combustible case still suffer from the same chamber heat and potentially durability issues, though.
>>64391320>as the ring-shaped sealing element (the stub head) is just part of the bullet instead of the chamber and also contains the rim.of course, combustible case obturates radially rather than longitudinally.
>>64391320Didn't feel right to me that the G11 had no a way of sealing the chamber, and on reviewing a Jim Schatz presentation I found out that it used a very similar two-part chamber, sometimes called a floating ring seal; pp. 26, 30https://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Caseless-Ammunition-Small-Arms.pdfBear in mind that the G11's chamber also rotated, so obturation could be improved with a system that's more stable in the long axis. Additionally, the hermetically sealed dolphin design that it used isn't trendy anymore; you might not need the pressure relief valve in a modern adaptation. Electronic firing may also be employed, which would address the issue of sealing the firing pin and confer other benefits.
>>64384000>>64384013>consolidate a handful of DMRs and LMGs>rugpull civilian 556/308 surplus (hence armor defeating fetish)>baby steps toward augmented AI and optic integration - nominally to engage drones - but really to turn hordes if 70 IQ mercenary janissaries into jackboot cannon fodder.
>>64391434Oh my god I've read this powerpoint before but I repressed the memory. I have time for Schatz's ideas, but thanks for making me relive this particular presentation fucktard.
>>64391461It is truly through our works and the ideas we leave behind that we can become immortal. RIP Jim Schatz, 1959-2017.
>>64388902>Nathaniel FitchI really want to ask him about his opinion on the micro assault rifle idea I and a few other anons have, I just can't find his contacts anywhere.
>>64391848>I just can't find his contacts anywhere.You can try to post something here. That's his forum. Maybe there is a contact, or register and post something idk...https://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/Username Sturgeon. Not much active anymore, and the forum is pretty much dead, but from what i can see, he last visited yesterday. https://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/profile/1-sturgeon/>I really want to ask him about his opinion on the micro assault rifle ideaYou can look around also, i know he talked about it in different threads from what i remember from my lurking. Just use the research function and search by author with his username.https://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/802-the-plateau-next-big-leaps-in-small-arms-tech/page/3/#comment-27781https://sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/14-the-small-arms-thread-part-8-2018-icsr-to-be-replaced-by-us-army-with-interim-15mm-revolver-cannon/page/32/#comment-10916
>>64389990I imagine this still has issues with moisture sensitivity
Jim Schatz (G3Kurz) on whether the "G11 is completely dead," 2008.https://www.hkpro.com/threads/hk-g11.79092/>The G11 program for the most part ended in the early 1990's with the end of the US ACR (Advanced Combat Rifle) program and the reunification in Germany. The German parliment had approved it's fielding but the weapon was just never ready for prime time. While it worked extremely well in a controlled environment it was still subject to the chamber sealing problems that plague all auto-loading caseless small arms. For a few years the German govt pumped some minor funds into continued refinement of the ammo technology but with many of the key folks leaving the ammo maker Dynamit Nobel (DNAG) the effort for the most part trailed off.>In the late 1990's the US Army decided to look at Lightweight Small Arms Technology (LSAT) and has now begun some additional work over the last 3 years on both lightweight polymer cased and caseless ammunition and weapons (LMG at this time) to fire them, both in a 5.56mm caliber. They have actually fired the poly ammo gun with success so far. They did discuss this new program with HK but HK passed on the idea having proved it could be done but not for actual field use. Not surprizingly the same DNAG "HITP" propellent is being used as is the two part expanding chamber of the failed G11/ACR which has serious sealing problems, and will again I predict. As there is only @ 5% reduction in weight from the caseless ammo compared to the poly ammo, the caseless with all it's technical problems (chamber sealing, push thru "extraction", cook-off, production issues, etc) it is hardly worth wasting time or money on, but the US is anyway (no surprize there). Plastic cased ammo is the ticket for weight savings if they have found the right kind of materials which it seems they may have....
>Caseless was an attempt to increase hit probability buy firing 3 rounds so quickly (2000 rpm) that it would make up for user aiming errors by launching a "salvo" of projectiles at the target. In Government tests that just did not prove out and the complexity of the G11 "Interior Operating Floating System" (IOFS) mechanism and issues with caseless ammo doomed the effort to the prototype shop and pattern room in Lindenhof.>You may be interested to know that the G11 and it's unique caseless ammunition will be covered in detail at the HKProfest later this year.tl;dr Schatz thinks that CT is better than caseless. He doesn't think the caseless LSAT would seal better than the G11.1991: Schatz hosts a demonstration of the G11 conducted by Volker Kurtz at Aberdeen.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McvGdBBCtVM>>64387570This thing is the platonic ideal of the US Army's rifle. Fuck, man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKw0FAAChYQ
>>64384271I thought caseless ammo actually transferred MORE heat to the firearm. With brass casings, much off the heat is transferred to the empty cartridge, which is ejected. With caseless, all that heat is transferred directly in to the chamber of the weapon. No idea if this is true, but there's some logic to it.
>>64394176>I thought caseless ammo actually transferred MORE heat to the firearm. With brass casings, much off the heat is transferred to the empty cartridge, which is ejected. With caseless, all that heat is transferred directly in to the chamber of the weapon. No idea if this is true, but there's some logic to it.Caseless does run slightly hotter - between 3% and 10% depending on the round you're equivalent to. Not enough to practically matter in many cases and nothing you can't engineer around when it does. The effect is usually massively exaggerated by people who mistakenly believe it was the cause of the G11s cook off issues before HITP was introduced But more importantly, that anon is talking about polymer cased telescoped rounds (PCT), not CL. Polymer cases already insulate the chamber and result in lower chamber temperatures and lower overall barrel temperatures (though you can get temperatures concentrations that need to be considered). Cased telescoped rounds also typically have chambers separate from the barrel which further reduces heat transfer between the two even when theyre directly in contact with each other.
>>64394222Thanks for the explanation man. I was thinking that PCT rounds would have the same problem as CL rounds when it comes to heat, but I see my error now. Im guessing its something like this - PCT rounds expose less of the barrel to heat from firing. The heat that would normally be transferred to the brass is simply directed out the muzzle. I wrongly assumed that without the brass "heat sink", the area in front of the chamber would be exposed to more heat. And maybe it is (guessing that's what you mean by temperature concentrations). But this is offset by the amount of barrel that's exposed to heat.
>>64394176The biggest source of heat in the chamber isn't actually combustion, it's heat from the friction of the bullet in the barrel being conducted backward to the chamber. The moving chamber design used in the Textron NGSW and other CT rifles isolates the chamber from the barrel so it doesn't get hot.Also, the problem with caseless and cookoff isn't so much losing insulation between the combustion and the chamber, it's losing insulation between the chamber and the unburned powder of a fresh round. Typically, cookoff doesn't result in chainfiring an entire magazine or belt, instead you get single rounds firing off at random intervals. If that interval is long enough, say 2 hours, then the barrel might have cooled off by the time the chambered round might have cooked off, so it doesn't happen. If a barrel of the same temperature can cook off an uninsulated caseless round in 10 minutes, then it will probably occur, and the heat added from that round cooking off might keep the barrel hot enough to cook off another round in 10 more minutes.
>>64394276The biggest source is friction? No shit? So theoretically then, a micro polished barrel would run cooler than an unpolished one?Fuck I wish I had studied engineering instead of history.
>>64394334Maybe, but my understanding is that it's mostly in the throat area where the bullet gets squished as it engages the rifling. I guess maybe 5R or polygonal rifling might generate a little less heat than traditional 6 groove rifling since they disturb the shape of the bullet less, but if there's a difference it's probably miniscule.
>>64384114>t. KnowerWe've had lots of "knowers" claim contradictory things
>>64394347Gotcha. That explains (partially) why squeeze bores never truly caught on. Aside from the ridiculous pressure, there's ridiculous friction related heat. Plus the heat from the pressure.I wonder if anyone ever tried shooting "loaded" polymer bullets (polymer compounded with heavy powderized metals, like tungsten). You could have a bullet with an OD of say 0.30", fire it in a 6mm barrel, and it would squeeze down to that size without generating the same level of heat that a copper bullet would generate. You'd have less of the squeeze bore effect, of course, as there wouldnt be as massive of a pressure spike, but maybe it could hit that goldilocks zone of higher velocity with decent parts life. Possibly cheaper to mass produce as well, depending on the materials used.
>>64394470Squeezebore in artillery pieces also never really caught on because of wear and tear. In small arms the other problem would be residue buildup rather quickly on the squeezing surfaces since you’re deforming the projectile through heat and pressure, it’s going to leave bits of itself behind, even with a 100% perfect burn of propellant. It’s neat in concept but it falls apart fast.
>>64389476It has nothing in common with the G11. It's much closer to Steyr's ACR, just firing conventional projectiles instead of meme flechettes.
>>64394470Yes, but also a squeezebore would be generating much of that heat much further away from the chamber so it would take longer for it to conduct back. I think it has more to do with the cost of machining a tapered bore and dubious benefits from it, and the fact that squeezebores only really work with soft lead bullets. Maybe your idea could work, but modern body armor is much more resilient to velocity than those of the past and penetrator hardness is now the important feature for defeating it. What you're describing would have very high sectional density and potentially very high speed, but extremely low hardness, so I don't think it's the most effective use of that tungsten.
>>64386891>20 yearsIt's been SEVENTY fucking years of time and money wasted on this retarded bullshit and nothing to show for it.https://media.defense.gov/1996/Jun/14/2001715295/-1/-1/1/96-164.pdf
>>64394531>money wastedThey specifically note that it was money well spent
>>64384066>but we were friends with Russia and China during GWOT Holy fucking kek
>>64394569We were. Post-9/11 any questions regarding the legitimacy of the Chechen wars were put to rest as we had suddenly become victims of Muslim extremism too, and as a result of that perceived solidarity, the most we did for the Georgians was a strongly worded letter to Putin and a Conex of Bushmasters that all got captured. It was only really with Crimea and euromaiden in ~2014 that things fell apart and Russia faced any kind of repercussion. Similarly with the chinks, 9/11 made bush immediately leave Taiwan out in the cold and this persisted through the Obama years; handling both the Taiwan and Tibet issues with kid gloves so as to not cause friction with our new pal; and it was only really with Trump that everybody suddenly remembered they're our main strategic adversary.
>>64394650>BushmastersWeren't they humvees? Was that an ebin freudian slip?
>>64389324>why don’t they?They're busy fulfilling US and Israeli contracts
>>64384000>textronarent those the people that made those shitty jets nobody bought?
>>64384000AUSA 2025 reminded me of what could have been. If it hadn't been for that faggot Milley, soldiers would have had intermediate CT carbines and MGs to go along with their futuristic tiltrotors, Swirchblades, and IVAS goggles.
