Didn't need replacing, just stop giving the troops beat to shit guns.
the p320 is a nice gun and hating indians doesnt change that.
>>64397586It did need replacingWith the Px4
>>64397594>This post's origin was traced to a call center in Kolkata, IndiaStriker pistols are a mem btw.
>>64397603yeah cool man your opinions sound borrowed from /hg/
>>64397595This
>>64397586The M9A3 really is a fantastic firearm and we really should have stuck with it rather than switch over to SIG Shitter
THIS didn't need to be replaced. The US military rarely uses pistols in combat. If I were king of the US military and they asked to replace these I would give them all hi-point c9s
>>64397661>people having a similar opinion to yours means you took it from themok then you must be a sig employee by that logic
>>64397893Are jeet subcontractors considered Sig employees?
>>64397893no one talks about the px4 except /hg/. it was popular like 5 years ago but now its obscure again.
>>64397586Pistols barely matter at all.Just give them Hi-Points so they don’t feel as bad when they get lost at JRTC in Ft. Polk.
>>64397594SIG's quality assurance is shit and the P320's design is flawed and allows for unintentional discharges. I want it to be a nice gun and I want the P320 to succeed, but it is not a nice gun as it stands.
>>64397586>just stop giving the troops beat to shit gunsThat would require replacing it, dipshit. The guns were at EOL and couldn't be refurbished. And if you're going to be buying new guns anyways, you might as well see what's actually out there and see if you can get a better deal.>>64397802>stuck with itYou cant stick with something you never had in the first place. The name was just a marketng gimmick by beretta and nobody ever adopted it.
>>64397586More or less. Upgrading the M9 to an M9A1 or whatever would have been a better option.>>64397594No it isn't, and it doesn't need to, that's just a bonus.>>64397595A special new PX4 pistol is one of the many good alternatives, yeah.>>64398456That's kind of true, but things like MPs still exist, who actually do need pistols specifically, and being basically police they should have an actually decent pistol on their hip for the purposes of their jobs.
>>64397586They should have adopted the P226 back in the 1980s but that's neither here nor there
>>64398429it did not originate there, it WAS a niche gun but it had a cult following outside of /k/. langdon, for example, was using the px4 for a while and it had a bit of a resurgence when he put out his customization for it like he did for the m9
>>64398625>langdon, for example, was using the px4 for a whileyes, 5 years ago.
>>64397594>p320 is a nice gunif you're emo
>>64398627so do you think people just forget about their opinion of a gun when it passes the magical 5 year expiration date, and afterwards can only source it from a general?
>>64397586> g19 m9 1911 p225 replaceddid they upgrade holster culture yet or still thigh holsters from gwot?
>>64398633i think people stopped giving a shit about the px4 after realizing they'd have to spend 200 dollars for trigger work and 300 dollars to mill the slide. its a cool gun but as someone who spent all that money back around 2019 I can assure you its not the best gun, especially for CCing or competing. the best gun for the money right now is an M&P2.0 with an apex trigger. /hg/ wont admit it because the M&P is ugly and striker fired.
>>64398628HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN TO ME?I'VE MADE MY MISTAKESGOT NOWHERE TO RUNTHE NIGHT GOES ONAS I'M FADING AWAYI'M SICK OF THIS LIFEI JUST WANT TO SCREAMhow could this happen to me
>>64397594Lol.
>>64397586>just stop giving the troops beat to shit guns.Armories are incapable of doing that. They could receive brand-new equipment and will continue to issue out the worn-out crap that's falling apart.>>64397802>M9A3>we really should have stuck with itAnon, how could we stick to a design that was never issued in the first place?>>64398645>the best gun for the money right now is an M&P2.0 with an apex trigger.>/hg/ wont admit itWith the exception of Glock fags and SIG SAARS no one would look down on your choice. Oh, I almost forgot about the one dude who whines about DA/SA even when nobody is criticizing it at all, he'd also object to your choice.
>>64398693>no one would look down on your choiceya they would just ignore it then go back to talking about P2000s or VP9s
>>64398569>M9A1That's existed for almost two decades, moron. The USMC wanted some improvements. Namely: a light rail, better checkering, a different magazine coating, and a thicker trigger guard to hit people with.
>>64398757Was the M9A1 officially adopted and in service?
>>64397586>Didn't need replacing, just stop giving the troops beat to shit guns.Yeah but imagine how much money we save by buying and issuing the troops pre-shittified guns.
>>64398757thicker trigger guard? didnt know that. i will compare em later.
>>64399146he's right
>>64399196thanks anon.
>>64397586>Didn't need replacing, just stop giving the troops beat to shit guns.Yeah that's thing. The troops weren't getting beat to shit guns, they already had beat to shit guns. The military doesn't replace guns and other serialized items unless something else replaces it entirely. They'll just keep patching it up until it's entirely unserviceable. All the M9s were clapped out, so the Army held a competition. Instead of replacing the M9s with newer M9s, they chose a different platform. Was it a mistake? Probably.
>>64397586The M9 was expensive to maintain, pistols don't matter at fucking all in combat for infantry, MPs, and Officers, the M9 was fucking expensive, and not to mention, difficult to maintain, and the Military wanted to be able to service the actual frame part of a pistol seprately from the actual serialized part.The M9 was adopted 40 years ago,and pistol technology has advanced quite a bit since then>BUH BUH MUH M4Needs an A2, but even then, the M4A1 aint fucking bad either, rifle tech hasnt advanced at fucking all since the M16A4, and the M4A1 upgrade package was rolled out like 2010.
>>64399222>The M9 was expensive to maintain,Because they were all old and busted and needed to be replaced with newer builds. Or with slightly modernized models. But some guy sitting in an office refused to do the right thing and give out funds to do so because he wouldn't have gotten a kickback from Company A for that was hooting and hollering for a complete replacement program so that they can get that sweet federal contract that would have brought in billions of dollars >The M9 was adopted 40 years ago,and pistol technology has advanced quite a bit since thenExcept it really hasn't. Have pistols been fine-tuned much like how rifles have? Yes, I completely agree. But to say that "pistol technology" has advanced beyond the scope of better ergonomics is completely ridiculous.
>>64399222>The M9 was adopted 40 years ago,and pistol technology has advanced quite a bit siBANGHello gunshot my new woundI had two nuts, then heard a boomBecause a sear softly slippingLeft its perch while I was skippingAnd the bullet that was chambered in my gunIs now goneThank you my sir, sig sauer
>>64397586Do they not teach soldiers how to hold a handgun in the army?
>>64399279
>>64399243Have pistols REALLY been fine tuned? Looks like nothing fucking changed and people are bending over backwards to get something even less ergonomic than a CZ75 to shoot flatter than a CZ75 without being heavier than a C75. Once in a while we get something cool and no one buys it.The pace of technological advancement in pistols is glacial, because no one actually cares. For most of the market, a 5 shot revolver is not just sufficient, but viable and effective. For the rest, pick almost any gun in the desired size, capacity and caliber.The M9 was missing just one fundamental, unfixable thing that other pistols (even 1911s) adapted easily to however - optics cowitnessing with irons without major surgery or hilariously tall sights. Italian flair strikes again.
>>64399293for most people a flintlock derringer is sufficient. none of the "upgrades" to modern pistols were invented in the 21st centuryflex sights were invented prior to WW1. And that thing looked no more flat than this gun. No fancy operating system required. Just ports and a comp. You can do that to virtually any pistol. Even flintlock derringer.
>>64397586I'm an idiot on handguns because they barely matter in military contexts. That being said why not just use the Glock-17? I don't know about the American military but in France pistols were just a flashy side piece for NCOs and officers.
>>64399289Might just be US.
>>64399050NTA, but yes. It's been used since 2006. The ones to be rejected were the M9A2 (threaded barrel and introduction of the 17-round mags, improved Picatinny rail), M9A3 (thinner grip with straighter grip angle for women and manlets, and interchangeable strap to make the grip thicker if you preferred the old design, universal frame that could easily be switched from safety model to decocker model), and M9A4 (optics ready, improved trigger, 18-round mags). Each subsequent generation that was rejected still had the improvements of the previous generation.>>64399222>the Military wanted to be able to service the actual frame part of a pistol seprately from the actual serialized part.The modular FCU was not a military requirement.
>>64397586They were all beat to shit. They would have needed to buy new M9s to replace them and the Sig was much cheaper.
>>64399649>They would have needed to buy new M9s to replace themThat is what OP wishes had happened.
>>64399222>M9 was fucking expensivehuh?
>>64397586Yeah. Same with the M4.Shit, am I getting old, or is military procurement just getting dumber?
>>64397586>Didn't need replacingNah, gun technology has advanced since the '70s. Plus, people tend to overestimate the importance of military pistols in a combat environment. There's better options made in the last couple decades than a metal frame DA/SA exposed hammer pistol that may never be used by anyone besides MPs responding to an infantry guy in base housing crashing out about his unfaithful wife he met in a bar last year.
>>64400009>There's better options made in the last couple decades than a metal frame DA/SA exposed hammer pistol So let's replace it with a janky deathtrap instead!
The Glock 19X or the 17 Gen 5 should have won, say what you want, but Glocks fucking work
>>64399243Because the receiver and slide are fucking forged you dumbass. Cry, cope, seethe, mald, puke, dilate, the Military didn't want to spend the $500 a "fucking thing that doesn't matter" on upgrading the M9. The M17/18 can be maintained into perpetuitity, and the actual serialized part? Is fucking sheet metal anybody in the country can manufacture, as opposed to the single plant Beretta owns in Italy that can make the aluminum and steel forgings necessary for the M9 to even gucking exist.You know what really fucking sucks if we go to war? Having parts of our guns made in foreign fucking nations.A striker fired pistol is a definitive advancement, a fucking grip module is a definitive advancement, rails on your fucking pistol is an advancement, reducing the price a significant margin is actually an advancement.>>64399266Glocknade.>>64399293Okay, hipsterella, your pistol that chews through springs and is a comical nightmare to maintain, and has the same height over bore axis as every other pistol on the market, totally could have won>>64399550The pistol being modular was such a quintessential requirement, the PROGRAM was called >XM17 Modular Handgun System competitionYou leering retard.
>>64400446> A striker fired pistol is a definitive advancementAbsolutely wrong. Striker fired pistols date to 1893. They have a few flaws. >no restrike capability>no external feedback for a snagged trigger>ugly as fuckNot definitively better/10. >fucking grip module is a definitive advancementAnd look at the use they’re getting out of it. REVOLVERS had swappable grips. Its not much because handguns dont fucking matter. They are backup weapons. The modularity only really impacts civilians who have a hard time buying the serialized part.
>>64400446>the p320/m17 is objectively unsafe>WHAT ABOUT THE UNSUPPORTED GLAWK FOUTY CHAMBERS?>muh foreign nations>safety issues partially due to indian manufacturing (avg iq 72)>striker pistols are better because they are!lol siggers
>>64399651But M9s would be 3x the price and pistols don't matter.
>>64400581They also would not randomly maim and kill the personnel who actually do need pistols. But with your logic, maybe we could just issue pipeguns for MPs and other non-grunt personnel, since pistols don't matter and they're cheaper.
We all know the glock fails to cycle when it comes down to the wire and an injured or otherwise compromised man cant hold it with comp shooter perfection due to insufficient frame rigidityDoes the p320/m18 have this issue? Has sig solved plastic strikerslops killer flaw?
>>64399333because glock didn't promise the guy making the decision of which handgun to purchase a comfy six figure do nothing board of directors job after he retired
>>64397594>indians out of nowhereSAAR PLS DO NOT REDEEM THE SHITTING STREET SAAR
>>64400592No personnel actually need pistols. Everyone issued a handgun would be fine with either nothing or an M4 depending on their job.Yes, the guns going off uncommanded is a massive design oversight and Sig should have taken the gun back to the drawing board when it started happening, but for the price it was offered, the objectively correct choice for a military handgun would have been to buy the Sig and require it to be carried with an empty chamber.
>>64400592I'm all for the complete removal of pistols. Not that anon. Pipe guns? no. But MPs are already rolling around with machine guns. Simplify the logistics chain. No pistols for anyone because they suck in gunfights anyway and are rarely used in the military. If we insist on pistols give them Hi-Points as >>64398456 suggests. I'll go one better. Give them Ruger Mark 4s. 22LR out of a pistol is still lethal and it cost 25% as much as 9mm. That's a lot of cost savings we can use to buy back our generals from SIG.
>>64400732the objectively correct choice is to not buy the pistol in the first place
>>64400645>out of nowhereyou cant talk about sig without people complaining about indians
>>64397586It's a bad gun for military purposes. That being said the MHS is actually a good idea, but SIG fucking it up will probably ruin it for another 30 years>T. Loves his 92fs and still carries it
>>64400759The objectively correct choice is to not field pistols, but if you're going to field pistols then the one to choose is the one that's a quarter of the price of anything else. It doesn't matter that it's not drop safe, the vast majority of service pistols throughout history haven't been.
>>64400446Beretta has been making M9s/92s in the US for ages now. You do realize part of the deal is that it has to be sourced from America if it's a military asset right?
>>64400764Gee Sukmandehp I wonder why
>>64400210Plenty of non-deathtraps they could've picked, but none of them could have lined the pockets of corrupt cronies.
>>64400800>You do realize part of the deal is that it has to be sourced from America if it's a military asset right?That's actually not entirely true. Defense companies can subcontract to foreign suppliers and the DoD can award prime contracts to foreign suppliers as well. It's just significantly less hassle to use an American supplier.t. Works in defense procurement/contracts
>>64397586The beretta should have never been adopted, they should have solicited a double stack 9mm single action 1911. Fuck double action. It's all about cocked and locked.Imagine if the US government had bankrolled the 2011 30 years earlier and set a tdp
So I don't know much about /k/ culture but I'm familiar with the controversy around the P320Is there an actual connection to india or is it just the same india derangement syndrome that every board suffers from?
>>64401166>is it just the same india derangement syndrome that every board suffers from?>india derangement syndrome You Will Never Not Be An Indian
>>64400446>modularJust meant that the grips could be adjusted in some way. The Glock backstraps were the modular part on the 19MHS and they were one of the competition finalists. SIG having an FCU meant literally zero in the contract award decision, you leering retard.Also, Beretta forges frames and slides at their Accokeek plant.
>>64401213>SIG having an FCU meant literally zero in the contract award decisionThen why is it only SIG made it past phase two durability testing when Glock and Beretta couldn't even make it to phase two? Beretta and Glock fags never have answer for it.
>>64400446>>XM17 Modular Handgun System competitionThe modular handgun program asked for interchangeable grips sizes, optics ready, pic rail. Nowhere in any documents where they demanding that the gun have an FCU you braindead imbecile.>>64401235>Beretta couldn't even make it to phase two? Beretta fags never have answer for it.Holy shit, you sure doubled down on your retardation. The Beretta APX also had an FCU. If FCU=pass, then they would have passed phase 1, you troglodyte.
>>64397586why care about the sidearm, is this officer propaganda?
>>64401235>phase two durability testingThe testing done in MHS was called "reliability testing" not durability. MHS covered the M17 full-size and M18 compact. Glock's submission covered both roles with one gun while SIG made two different guns for the different roles. The Glock wasn't tested in the 2nd reliability trial covering the compact pistol because their gun was already tested in the earlier full-size test. By the way, SIG failed that compact reliability evaluation, but the Army tossed the requirement after the fact. The only technical evaluation that SIG did better than Glock was the initial ergonomics. Not hard to do since Glock grips feel like holding onto dimensional lumber and that's been an evergreen complaint about them. So your answer for why Glock didn't go into the second reliability test is because they didn't need to. In any case, how does having an FCU related in anyways to reliability testing? It's not like an FCU is more mechanically durable than a frame cast into the plastic frame. You're trying to evade the point by throwing up unrelated bullshit. Unless you're referring to the post-award testing that SIG did. Glock didn't do it because the contract was already awarded to SIG, but that should be so obvious that only a drooling moron would bring it up.
>>64401113>still grip safety>still internal extractorTotal Boomer Death
>>64401213>Also, Beretta forges frames and slides at their Accokeek plant.In the process of looking this up, I found out that the Smithsonian has a bunch of M9 parts in various stages of production. Including this M9 barrel blank. It's literally just a little block of billet steel, all cataloged and preserved in some specimen drawer somewhere lol.Anyways, I just thought this was cute.
>>64397586https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUGu0hYXweY
>>64401113Goofy all around. If you were gonna just do a 1911 again you might as well stick with .45 anyway, sharing sidearm ammunition is so logistically unimportant that each NATO country could just pick whatever pistols and calibers they feel are suitable.If you WERE gonna redo the 1911 back in the 1980s, skipping the old fragile extractor design would be preferable, and making it DA/SA would be plain better, but now we're just starting over from scratch (inventing the Colt Double Eagle even earlier wouldn't do anyone any good).Ask S&W to come up with a version of one their .45s but with an alloy frame, double stack magazine, and a slightly shorter barrel and slide (think like 1911 Commander profile). Optionally, pick 10mm for a bit more power and capacity.
In your guys' opinions, did the M9 deserve to win back in 1985/86, and does it's much shorter lifespan than the 1911 a reflection on build quality or just using it in a harsher environment?
>>64401638>does it's much shorter lifespan than the 1911 a reflection on build quality or just using it in a harsher environment?It's an effect of using an aluminum frame rather than a steel frame. Steel has a limit below which it will never fatigue, aluminum and most polymers have no such limit and will eventually fatigue over the course of repeated stressing. A steel or titanium frame would be the only way to make a handgun last forever, but the one is prohibitively heavy and the other prohibitively expensive. The other option is to go for a P320 style FCU, where the serialized component is just a little steel plate and the entire frame is a wear item like the barrel and springs and so on.
>>64401734Interesting, thanks
>>64401734Or just say fuck it for the whole serialized part, and just replace frames as needed.
>>64401638I would say yes it did, but the gun was always on borrowed time because Glock had begun it's climb to dominance and make 9mm striker fired polymer pistols the norm.You also kind of need to remember that it took until the 70s for wonder nines to appear which meant that the 1911 had already served for well over 60 years at that point.
>>64401513>muh .45>pick 10mm for more powerStopping power isn't real, retard. The difference in terminal effect between 10mm vs.45 vs 9mm ball is literally nothing. You're just a retard who thinks louder bang and kick means more effective. Literally a shrieking chimp jumping around and clapping at loud noises.
>>64401734>where the serialized component is just a little steel plate and the entire frame is a wear item like the barrel and springs and so on.The P320 FCU is the serialized part, it's not some little plate. The whole serialized part thing only matter for civillians buying from FFLs. The military gives literally no fucks. Serial numbers are just a way of tracking end items and changing one is just entering a new number on a computer. Also, if the FCU can be treated as a wear component, then why would a standard frame be unable to have the same treatment?>>64401907This is what is done in practice. If you send a gun in to be maintained and it's too clapped out to fix, it gets coded for disposal and you get a new one to replace it.
>>64397586M9 was shit. Sig is shit.1911 was great and didn't need replacing. Marines used the 1911 up to 2022. SF still used it. Capacity in a pistol is a meme. Accuracy in a pistol is a meme. Velocity in a pistol is a meme. A pistol is a last ditch very close proximity weapon who's sole purpose is to remove the immediate threat with the intent to either remove yourself from the situation or get you to a proper weapon. 7 rounds of .45 out of a 1911a1 is all you will ever need and then some.
>>64402551Ball is where this stuff makes the most difference, you fuckhead, because you aren't using a projectile which is providing any expansion. Also, the context here is the 1980s and the M9 trials, where 9mm hollowpoints from pistol barrels were still shit.
>>64397586They replaced it with a Sig which is owned by a Cohen, that should tell you why it was actually replaced.
>>64402780Lo and behold a random mediocre Sig rifle won against 2 game changing future rifles. They own us and our shillitary.
>>64398569>MPs still exist, who actually do need pistols specificallyStateside MPs don't need pistols, the guns just lead them to mistakenly thinking they are real infantry. Deployed MPs need carbines.
>>64402712>makes the most differenceYou're right, anon. That extra 9 hundredths of an inch in diameter is really just the most significant increase in lethality that you can get in a pistol circa 1985. I mean, it's NINE hundredths. Can you even imagine what you would do without being to poke a hole that was 0.09 inches bigger? Basically an artillery piece at that point. Wow. Nine hundredths, that's almost 1 whole tenth of an inch!
>>64402780>he thinks the CEO is the ownerembarrassing
>>64399304>No fancy operating system required.The super special recoil mitigation systems and the constant pursuit of lower bore axis is basically meaningless outside of marketing a boutique product. I appreciate seeing how they're built, but they have the side effect of convincing noobs that there's some unexplored world of unlocked handgun shooting performance when there really isn't. I believe we've already reached the peak of how much "skill" money can buy for a novice shooter, which is what a contracted duty pistol is chasing in 2025 (other than low price). Well trained shooters can already shoot sub-2-second Bill Drills with box stock pistols and then hit a human silhouette at 100 yards, so there isn't any more performance to crank out of handguns themselves except that can be measured by .00X on a shot clock. That matters to the niche of high-end competitors, but the needs of LEOs, Military forces, and a vast majority of normal people stop way short of that, and we will see Glocks on Mars.
>>64402785>real infantry*real soldiers
I think its stupid that you would want soldiers walking around with spring tension on a firing pin 24/7 with a safety(did the P320 even have a safety) but they passed up on Glocks, the penultimate and proven polymer striker fired 9mm...
>>64398562>>64398693>ESLs don't understand contextEnglish speakers understand that I am referring to sticking with Beretta. Crazy that the exact same grievance was issued TWICE. Are you both from the same turd world country?
>>64403006A Glock has enough energy in the striker at rest to fire a cartridge if it somehow jumped the sear and FPB. There are plenty of fully cocked striker pistols on the market, that isn't a problem
>>64403034The subject of the sentence was the M9A3 and that was the only possible subject of the sentence. Therefore, when you used the pronoun "it", you were referring to the M9A3. That's the only possible way to read that sentence. Randomly popping a new and undefined subject into it is illiterate behavior. I'm sorry you can't parse your own language at a third grade level, but that's your loser parent's fault.
Glawks are the Toyota Camry of guns. But have a terrible habit of being easy to mishandle.The 1911 is over hyped, and was carried by it's "stoppin powha" M17-18 needs no argument. It's shit and I regret buying a 320.
>>64401638>did the M9 deserve to win back in 1985/86Yes, the Beretta M9 and the SIG P226 were simply the most reliable guns that existed in the 1980s. While the SIG performed slightly better the M9 was cheaper so the military went with that.>does it's much shorter lifespan than the 1911 a reflection on build quality or just using it in a harsher environment?Neither, handguns don't get used often enough to require a program worth millions of dollars to replace them. These decisions are more political than practical. I promise you some of the high brass in the military have a close relationship with SIG USA and orchestrated this handgun being chosen.>>64402589>M9 was shit. Nah.>Sig is shit.Yeah, Ron Cohen really ruined that company.>1911 was great and didn't need replacing. Marines used the 1911 up to 2022.It did need replacing because Colt's QC had become garbage around the 2011-current era. There's a video on the lengthy history of Colt fucking up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6tWtGaAQjY>SF still used it.Which are all custom M1911s; none come from a production line, just like their URG-I AR-15. They are good but cost thousands of dollars to meet the requirements of SF. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gBK19PY2_s>>64403034>calling others ESL after that shameful display.Yikes. Your context was that they should get new M9s and throw old ones in the trash. My response in >>64398693 was explaining that even if new shit appeared in the armories, the old crap would continue to get issued, I've seen broken ACOGs be handed to marines. There's a YouTube channel called MikeBurnFire where he explains to civilians the struggle of being an armorer in an overly bureaucratic military and how every simple task becomes hell on earth due to too many procedures and checklists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnKdrbKoIQA
>>64403351>how every simple task becomes hell on earth due to too many procedures and checklistsLiterally not a thing. The armorer would have to be a complete fucking moron who refused to do the barest effort to do their job. Get a broken thing, send it to higher maintenance, they send it back code h or whatever, you fill out a DLA form for disposal and replacement, you drop off the old one and get a new one. Takes maybe 20 minutes of combined paperwork and 30 minutes of driving around post. Ezy pzy.Your video is some loser e-4 crying about how he half-assed his own work, expected someone else to somehow do it for him, and then cried about how nobody did his job for him. Military maintenance is piss easy, you just have to follow the very easy process. There's usually a list written at literally the 4th grade level provided to you.
>>64402798Absolute retard. The much heavier 230gr projectile in a .45 makes a difference, the heavier, and faster 180gr or 200gr projectile in a 10mm, makes a difference.You're not going to see the same penetration.
>>64403513They both have more than enough penetration. Even if it was twice as good, twice of enough is still just enough. That weight buys you nothing.
>>64403478>Your video is some loser e-4 crying about how he half-assed his own work, expected someone else to somehow do it for him, and then cried about how nobody did his job for him.And when you realize more than half of servicemen are basically him, you'll understand how I'm right. LOL
>>64403518Yup. It only matters if you're going up against bears or something, and in that case you should preferably get (but still not need) something from an entirely different power class.9mm, .380, .45 do the exact same thing in humans. That guy is a massive loser who's mentally stuck in 2011.
>>64403566>.380>do the exact same thing in humans.That's not what the king of terminal ballistics, Dr. Gary Robert, thinks."Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them."https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/#mozTocId634569
>>64397586>bro just buy a new gun for every new serviceman who joinsI thought sig slutters couldn't be any more delulu, but here we are. Ps not everyone wants to open their assholes as wide as sig customers do (h&k customers don't count because they admit h&k hates them, honesty is worth a lot you know!)
I'm a CZ fag but they really should have just adopted the cheapest full sized glock model they could have and called it a day.
>>64401907>>64402566Serialized weapon components are still a deal for the military, just not as big of one as for civilians. There's a big difference between an entire firearm (meaning just the serialized bit) going missing and a grip module or whatever Sig calls their frames. Issuing a new weapon is more paperwork than replacing a worn component.
>>64397852There is zero reason to use a revolver over an automatic for police and guard duty.
>>64403304>car comparison>reference to stopping power>buzzword nicknames ala BurtYeah, you've never owned a gun, little guy.
>>64403647I haven't examined his work in detail (and I don't think we should just take any seminal work as gospel), but from what I have seen online modern .380 HPs are fairly consistent and get decent penetration. I dislike hard and fast figures like the FBI's 12" minimum for penetration, IIRC that's based on memes about immediately incapacitating people even if they were only shot once into the thorax through the arm. Human chests are only about 8 inches deep.I think we shouldn't fall into the same trap as our forerunners but for a different cartridge. It's pretty fucking hard for any bullet to not be lethal, within reason of course.
>>64403215Nice translation tool, but you can't wriggle your way out. A normal person wouldn't respond like this.
>>64403815>issuing a new weapon is more paperwork than replacingBarely. It's just one more form sent to another organization. Then you do the swap and get the new gun. Mayben a few minutes more of paperwork to update a single weapon card after that. This isn't difficult and I've done it many times. >the entire firearm going missingHow is a frame any harder to lose than a whole FCU? You're making a false comparison.
>>64404147>Human chests are only about 8 inches deepBallistic gel is not a human chest. In a real body you have many different tissue types, bones, and fluids. Ballistic gel is just a standardized media that approximates the density of muscle tissue. Notice that even the most bulked up roid tranny isn't majority muscle. Hell, skin is super tough and worth a few inches of gel equivalent. Ballistic gel is a poor substitute for a human, but it's a standardized one that allows comparison. Trying to map the gel results onto a human is just being illiterate.
>MUH NEXT GEN PISTOL NEEDS SUPRESSOR MOUNTS, SIGHT MOUNTS, LIGHT MOUNTS, LASER MOUNTS, FUNNY MEGA GRIPS, A ULTRA DULUX INBRED TITANIUM TIPPED HAMMERLike why, why does a pistol need all this shit? Spec ops fags sure I could get wanting to slap a whisper stick on the end of the gun, maybe, but why the fuck does all the other cunts who have pistols, need all that crap on top of it? I doubt an Mp is ever gonna have a need for a suppressor or laser, let alone ever fucking get one, no on deck crewman or airman is ever gonna even see a suppressor, like seriously why? And I know the answer is money kickbacks from sig and shit for approving their contract, but what is the actual reason for needing 99% of the actual pistol users in the military to have a pistol that can do all this fancy shit that they'll never actually do?
>>64397586the 1911 didn't even need replacing
>>64397594
>>64404331Sounds like you're a seething poorfag, many such cases of this
>>64404319Principle of charity, anon. You know that I know this mantra. While I could have phrased it better, what I meant to say is that the FBI's penetration requirement (no matter how it's modelled or simulated) may be overkill for most civilian self-defense purposes, and most .380 defensive loads of reasonable barrels are still quite close to achieving it anyway. For this power class (and really all guns), shot placement is far and beyond the most important factor, followed by penetration to make said shots count.
>>64397586Zoomoids can only use stiker fired pistols
>>64404394Rent free
>>64404415kys underage retard
>>64397586Hammers provide an extra level of safety which is important as a military where the main thing that will be shot by handguns will be your own troops by their own hand by accident. It's not like police where everyone gets more practice.The main problem is the weight, but the PX4 solves this, and there are several other polymer framed hammer-fired guns.
>>64404353.45ACP weights a lot more than 9mm, and are equally ineffective in a military context.
>>64404383So why need all that stuff?
>>64404353The 1911 is the best handgun ever, but we were using pistols made during WW2 up until adopting the M9. They were worn out and needed to be replaced, and it had to be something alloy-framed in 9mm because of NATO and the fact that those are cheaper and weigh less than steel-framed 45s. Eventually the M9s got worn out and needed to be replaced, and it had to be something polymer-framed and striker-fired, because those are cheaper and weigh less than alloy-framed hammer-fired pistols. Sidearms are all but completely irrelevant in a military context anyway. They're basically symbols of rank or authority on base, e.g. MPs.
why not just give them m10's?
>>64404875>weighs more than a slick m4Yeah
>>64404943Glock with an auto conversion kit and an extra long mag then?
>>64404353The last batch of M1911A1s the military got from Colt was from the early 50s. That's 30+ years of use on the absolute freshest guns.>why not buy more 1911s???Because they wanted 13 round magazines, NATO standardized on 9mm, and they wanted DA/SA. >why not an 9mm, DA/SA 1911???One was entered in the trial by Colt, and it sucked. It was so bad that Colt voluntarily pulled it out of the trial to avoid the PR hit from the military listing everything wrong with it.
>>64404480>The 1911 is the best handgun everThe 1911 isn't even the best american .45.
>>64405245Was the Colt SSP actually bad?
>>64397586>hey guys we'll update the pistol with even more than what youve said is a problem, and itll even be cheaper than the current models!Why didnt they just go with the m9a4?
>>64405290Yes. They made an upgraded and improved version as the Doble Eagle and it still sucked.
>>64405342I'm hesitant to call the Double Eagle a version of the SSP, as the SSP was a new pistol entirely, while the Double Eagle was a modified 1911 frame for a standard 1911 slide (in fact, copied from Louis Seecamp's DA/SA conversions).
>>64405284That's not a Colt Single Acton Army.
>>64405360>da/sa 1911How the hell can i get one?
>>64405290It wasn't bad, but it wasn't really notably good either. It's biggest issue was being a product of Colt in the 80s and significantly better guns being made by better companies were widely available on the market. Nobody would buy an SSP when they could buy a P226, 92SB, or 459. Colt also gimped themselves by only running after government contracts. Civilian sales allowed other companies to fund improvements and subsidize bids for government contracts.
>>64405394Buy a colt double eagle.
>>64405394Two ways.The easiest is the Colt Double Eagle, which, as said, is a modified 1911 frame design with an added on DA lockwork. These were not particularly well liked pistols in their day, in big part because disassembly is a bitch. (Supposedly, later manufactured ones are better, but by that point the reputation was already ruined).See how the right grip panel here extends forward up there? It does because it covers up the DA parts, and when you take off that grip panel those are exposed, and the little spring is prone to jumping out of its spot, so reassembly is finicky and it can be easy to accidentally lose it if you're not careful.The other is the Seecamp conversions, which are similar, but those are all professional gunsmith conversions, by Louis Seecamp or the people he personally trained himself. Those also use a metal cover plate under the grip panel, which is a bit more helpful.There were not that many of those made though, maybe 3000 conversions done or so, so you would need to hunt around, and probably it will cost some money.
Ludwig 'Louis' Seecamp joined the German Army around WW1 as a young man and was trained as a master gunsmith there, he would serve again in WW2.He had an encounter there with a Russian soldier, just the two of them having to draw their sidearms, and so they did, almost simultaneously. The Russian soldier drew and fired his Tokarev pistol, striking Louis in the cheek, and Louis drew and fired his Walther P38, hitting the Russian soldier in the chest, killing him on the spot.The shot Louis received took a gash out of his cheek and removed some of his teeth, but him being able to draw and fire his P38 so quickly had saved his life, shooting the enemy before he could be shot again, and he attributed that to the speed afforded to him by the DA trigger. This near-death experience is what made him regard DA/SA as the perfect pistol trigger.Going to civilian gunsmithing after the war, he made it over to America, and he became VERY fond of the 1911 pistol, he thought it was almost perfect, but to make the 1911 a truly perfect pistol, it should have a DA/SA trigger, just like a P38 did, thus he designed a conversion to make that a reality.It's almost a bit of a hack, but it does work. Here's a .45 Commander with the Seecamp conversion.
>>64405074You want to give the troops glizzies wit da switchies and da stendo and da beam? Maybe tracers too?All joking aside... I also secretly wonder how viable this would be.
>>64404147>I don't think we should just take any seminal work as gospelTrue, but Dr. Gary Roberts has decades of experience. The Navy trusts him, the FBI trusts him, hundreds of law enforcement agencies trust him, and Stanford School of Medicine trusts him. He is the GOAT of terminal ballistics due to many years of fixing people who were shot in the face.>>64404147>from what I have seen online modern .380 HPs are fairly consistent and get decent penetration.If the barrel is long enough, it will, but most people aren't carrying a Colt M1903, Beretta Cheetah, Girsan clone of the Cheetah, S&W Shield EZ, etc.; instead, they are carrying tiny pocket pistols with barrels that are less than 3", and then the penetration (not so important, as it will reach vitals at less than 12") and expansion (very important to maximize energy on target) wil suffer greatly as the doc said.>It's pretty fucking hard for any bullet to not be lethal, within reason of course.Of course, but seeing how fast self-defense situations go, I want projectiles with very effective terminal ballistics because, to me, incapacitation is even more important than lethality for my chances of survival.>>64404319>Ballistic gel is a poor substitute for a human, but it's a standardized one that allows comparison.True.>>64404393>most .380 defensive loads of reasonable barrelsAnd most .380 users are not carrying a reasonable length of barrel.>shot placement is far and beyond the most important factor, followed by penetration to make said shots count.I'd say expansion beats penetration in order of importance; any bullet that stops after hitting a vital will transfer more energy to the target than a bullet that kept going and exited the target. One of the reasons that people are obsessed with ballistic gel testing is because we can see permanent wound cavities (and temporary wound cavities if we record the test, but those are less important).
>>64405310Didn't exist at the time.M9A3 did but was a lot more expensive and not "modular".If this wasn't a corrupt competition, the APX would have been selected. It's right in the delta of safe, reliable, and cheap.
>>64405500Is the APX really that good? I keep seeing the subcompact on sale for dirt cheap and might grab one just to have the FCU, but barbie playhouse parts dont seem as cheap or available as p320 or p365 shit
>>64404331>>64404449The small grip with an optional way to increase its size is so that women and manlets could theoretically have a pistol that was easier to shoot (the theory failed as using a lighter pistol made recoil worse, and they performed worse than with the M9). Everything else was so potentially the tier 1 units could use the standard pistol rather than having to buy a separate one.>>64404436>It's not like police where everyone gets more practice.HAHAHAHAHA, Most police agencies only have to qualify twice a year. After some backlash, a few agencies switched it to 4 times a year. They are just as untrained as the military's annual requirement considering how the police test is much easier.>>64405245>The last batch of M1911A1s the military got from Colt was from the early 50s.You can say it was in 2014 with the M45s that Colt fucked up. The QC was so bad that the military might have blacklisted Colt after that.
>>64405520>APX goodYes>subcompact No, that one's a reskinned nano or Pico or some shit
>>64405500>and not "modular"Yes it was. The modularity is just the ability to take different backstraps, which vertec frames can do.
>>64403868Better caliber , better aesthetic , you get more Pussy , et cetera .
>>64405729If you're an actual cop, the possibility is decent that you're going to get into a firefight with some fuckhead, and in that case they are pretty likely to have an automatic pistol with a +15rd magazine.Six shots isn't nearly enough for someone who carries a handgun on a job that entails dealing with the absolutely shittiest people of your community, you're going to direly want something with a parity of firepower to common pistols.
>>64406179Law enforcement averaged out at 7 shots in America. That should read averaged. Meaning most encounters are 1 or 2 shots. Then every so often a law enforcement person uploads a magazine or 2 and drags the average up. You do not need more than a revolver as law enforcement. Want and need are different things. Moreso today as the AR platform is readily available and used by almost all law enforcement. A pistol is just to get you back to the patrol car. For the long guns.
>>64406225>Law enforcement averaged out at 7 shots in America. That should read averaged. Meaning most encounters are 1 or 2 shots.You do not understand how averages work. An average is often used to describe the tendency or middle ground of a dataset. Essentially it takes way more than 1 outlier to skew a dataset. For the average (which is 8 btw, not 7) there had to be many cases where more than 8 shots were fired.Also in order to look less bad cops will report shots per officer rather than shots per incident. If there were 4 officers on scene and they each shot 4-8 rounds, it will appear in these statistics as separate cases of 4-8 shots fired rather than one incident where 16-32 shots were fired.
retarded Italian gun for queers finally replaced with murican
>>64406486>>You don't understand how averages workProceeds to show a tenuous grasp on reality let alone averages.
>>64406486>>averages workThe arithmetic mean was used by the fbi to come to this number, 7>>more than one outlier That was not the claim. The claim was a statement of fact. Most police shootings are extremely low numbers. Every so often its an absolute shit show with a massive amount of shots fired. Thus raising the average >>shots per officer instead of shots per instance The average we are speaking of, the report being used to show a revolver or single stack is enough is based on, SHOTS PER INDIVIDUAL YOU FUCKING MORON.
>>64406225>You do not need more than a revolver as law enforcement. Want and need are different things.Revolvers are more expensive, and police don't need more expensive sidearms when a Glock or M&P does the same thing but much better and for less.
>>64406615>The arithmetic mean was used by the fbi to come to this number, 7Sure, man. Hey, do you have a source for that claim? I do for mine. picrel and link.>The average we are speaking of, the report being used to show a revolver or single stack is enough is based on, SHOTS PER INDIVIDUALIf it took 19 shots to take down a suspect, then it's not realistic to mark it as "officer one shot 3 rounds, officer two shot 5 rounds, officer three shot 2 rounds, officer four shot 1 round, officer five shot 4 rounds, officer six shot 3 rounds, and officer seven shot 1 round" because there is no guarantee that in the next encounter there'll be seven officers available when bullets start flying. I repeat my earlier statement. Shots per individual is only used to mislead the public, you troglodyte. If they were honest, they'd use shots per incident, which shows there are many cases where more than 8 shots were needed. Hell, in the comment I was responding to, the person even admitted that most officers are using an AR: "Gee, I wonder why they're pulling out a rifle that usually has a 30-round mag?"https://ucr.fbi.gov/leoka/2017/tables/table-106.xls
>>64406705>>If it took 19 shots to take down a suspect, then it's not realistic to mark it as "officer one shot 3 rounds, officer two shot 5 rounds, officer three shot 2 rounds, officer four shot 1 round, officer five shot 4 rounds, officer six shot 3 rounds, and officer seven shot 1 roundIt does when the question is how many shots an officer fires on average per engagement you fucking dumb cunt.>>8.3The number is 7. Notice you isolated a specific subset in the report you posted that is not representative of the entirety of the subject matter...
>>64406705You can find anything you want tweaked in any way you like. The fact remains you aren't shooting more than one or two shots from more than ten feet even if you are law enforcement, unless you are a rare exception. Rifles exist and are issued. A pistol is only to get back to a rifle. Im right you are wrong suck it.
Notice in Picrel that not a single one of the averages in the total is 7. Not one, but you'll continue being the retard you are, we just know it.
>>64406759I did notice you can't fucking read...
>>64406744Your pic (you could have linked a source btw) shows that in 47% of cases more than 3 rounds were needed; what I just circled is not an outlier, you imbecile. BTW, I know you failed middle school math, but when the decimal is .5 or higher, you round up, not round down. Great job moving the goalpost from "more rounds are not needed" to "it's 7, not 8. WAH!" when your own pic proves you wrong. LOL
Fucking absolute retard posting the average from victim officer shootings when more than one officer fired thinking its somehow the average number of shots fired by officers in police involved shootings...Its 2.39 shots on average when a shooting only involves one officer.Its 8.21 shots fired average total (all officers involved) when more than one officer shootsHow about you actually learn to fucking read dumb cunt?
>>64397595oh good you guys got the answer right away.
>>64406793Study shows an individual officer wouldn't need more than 3.5 rounds...>>waaaah I cant read.Dunning zoomer
>>64406807>Its 8.21 shots fired average totalSo now it's not 7 anymore? Curious LOL. BTW, nowhere in either source does the number 2.39 show up, so I'm not the one struggling to read, you delusional dumbass.
>>64406793>>you could have linked a source btwArgument on a board full of gay sex tourists, glowies and tube scavengers looking for content. Yeah ill get right on the source material dumbass
>>64406830>Study shows an individual officer wouldn't need more than 3.5 rounds...47% of them did, according to your own source; a literal coin flip. I guess that makes you the dunning zoomer.
>>64406841>Yeah ill get right on the source material dumbassSarcasm, I guess you realize now your claim is bullshit, so you need to deflect.
>>644068328.21 shots fired total by two or more officers. That would mean each officer fired 7 or less. Period. Thats how that works. >>2.39 is the average number of shots fired by an officer in an officer involved shooting when the singular officer is the only officer that fired a shot in said incident. Is that fucking clear enough? Im right. You are retarded.
>>64406845>>Der 47% didMultiple officers fired you fucking retard.
>>64406852Your data says when an officer has been shot (assaulted)the officer shot fired on average 3.3 shots.Your data says all the assisting officers shot(assaulted)in total 14.7 shots combined on average. Your data supports my claim and lowers the claim of of needed rounds per officer.A fucking tri barrel would almost be enough kek
>>64397586Pistols are almost pointless to the military. They literally exist so specific people aren't unarmed.
>>64398639>upgrade holster culture yet or still thigh holsters from gwot?What's wrong with dropleg holsters?
>>64406518>retardedthe px4 is from beretta too
>>64406773no hes actually correct
>>64406922>only counting officers that got shotare...are you serious? well, i guess that settles it. lets just issue revolvers to the officers we know will get shot, and the others who need the higher capacity will get the glocks. problem solved
>>64397586PEW
>>64404438>>64404480>>64404353just use hi-powers then
>>64397586>It didn't need replacing.>Just give them new guns.Anon I...
They should have adapted the 92FS design to .45
>>64397586> NOOOOOO IT'S AN OLD GUN ANON IT MUST BE REPLACED BECAUSE OF MY ARBITRARY FEELING!
>>64397586lets be real though. did they even need to replace the 1911??? if i was some kind of officer id try and carry a 1873 colt in 45 long colt. even if i looked like a fuckin larper
>>64411197yeah the 1911 has a retarded grip safety and only holds 7 rounds.
>>64411202>grip safetyAll the US military handguns have it.>only holds 7 rounds.New flush-fit mags hold 8, and you can easily issue 10-round mags for a duty pistol that won't be concealed.
>>64411202I really just wqnted to post about the saa. But yeah I mean 7 rounds is kinda low and the 1911 is fucking huge. The beretta 92 is almost the same size. But its got like 12 to 19 bullets depending on the mag. Idk what the armies gun is. I know its all weird high level jewish contracts and shit. Politics that decides what gets used
>>64397586Should have adopted the USP instead
>>64411274> All the US military handguns have it.The m9 does not.>New flush-fit mags hold 8Oh boy>you can easily issue 10-round magsWowee a whole 10 you say!?
>>64411282>The m9 does not.The M9 issued to the military has a manual safety, you moron. The decocker models were not issued to the US military.
>>64405578Don't forget that no unit actually bothered to stock or issue anything besides the medium frame
>>64411304> The M9 issued to the military has a manual safety, you moron. The decocker models were not issued to the US military.It's incredible how you are precisely 180 degrees wrong. The M9 does not have a grip safety and absolutely has a decocker built into the the thumb safety. I know because I shot them but you can easily look this up. Were you just informed incorrectly or are you lying on the internet for no reason?
>>64411324>"It does have a safety but it doesn't have a safety.">"The safety works as a decocker so the safety is actually a decocker and not a safety."Okay. If being a disingenuous, overly pedantic fuck was a national sport, I'd bet on you.
>>64397586I hate tan guns but this aesthetic with the dark frame is peak I wish they would bring it back.
>>64411202>Officer length barrel and slide>do double-stack frame to give it 13-14 rounds of .45, or 14-15 rounds of 10mm>slightly bevel inside of magwell for easier loading>thin G10 grip panels bearing crest for the given service (Army, Airforce, Navy, etc)>nix grip safety and just use titanium firing pin>combine with slight relief under trigger guard and you can get a high grip that helps make recoil EZ>swap internal extractor for external extractor>slight relief on back of chamber for loaded chamber indicator>wide spur hammer and semi-long beaver-tail
kek another sig/glockcuck seethe thread
>>64413264>nix grip safety and just use titanium firing pinA light firing pin doesn't help when the safety is off. A service pistol should be using a series 80 firing pin block anyways.>inb4 much trigger pullThe best part of the series 80 is that immediately filtered out all the shitty gunsmiths who didn't know how to do anything but file down sear surfaces. >cutting a hole for an LCIIf you have an external extractor, you can just use that as an LCI. >.45Is a bad cartridge.
Once so many of your pistols are worn out and there's no active contract for continuing production, what would you do? At that point we weren't "married" to the M9 anymore.For what it's worth, I do think the M9 is the better handgun
>>64413983>A light firing pin doesn't help when the safety is off. Does the grip safety? The only thing it does anything for at all is the trigger, and you can already prevent it from pulling itself by making it lightweight.>A service pistol should be using a series 80 firing pin block anyways.Either is fine to me.>If you have an external extractor, you can just use that as an LCI.True, but it needs to be obvious even to the meatheads.>bad cartridgeI disagree. Also, there's literally no point in going for 9mm if you were dead set on still doing the 1911, and pistol cartridges will only have so much effect anyway. You're not trading down in terminal effect with .45, and you're not trading down enough in capacity to be very considerable.
>>64413983>>Bad cartridge, .45The fuck are you on about? One to one .45 is better than any other option until you get to the magnums. (10mm is in the magnum category)In the military setting all the retard law enforcement requests for ammo that stops inside the target are removed. The military uses (mostly) fmj military ammo. (Non expanding). 45 will give you the largest diameter, deepest penetration, largest total wound volume in human tissues. .45 is frankly the best choice for the job.
>>64414468>10mm is a magnumLmao, thanks for the laugh. I know you're trolling, but to address your points so that the dummies who take you seriously can learn something:It's fat and therefore requires fat guns. It's also barely bigger than 9mm while both penetrate deep enough.>inb4 but it penetrates moreMore than enough is the exact same as enough.>>64414423>You're not trading down in terminal effect with .45You're also not trading down in terminal effect by going to 9mm.
>>64397586the only threshold a pistol needs to penetrating a skull or the roof of the mouth at a range of of centimeters at mostso return to .32 ACP blowback pistols to maximize compactness
>>64415003>You're also not trading down in terminal effect by going to 9mm.Not significantly, no, and you do trade up in capacity and recoil control. However, since it's just a military pistol cartridge, it doesn't really matter that much and you can flip a coin and have a good pistol anyway.Since the U.S doesn't give a fuck about muh expanding munitions, it's not like pistol ammo couldn't be some kind of hollow point anyway.>thanks for the laughHe's not really off, full powered loads of 10mm Auto can be comparable to common .357 Magnum loads. Not just talking footpounds here either, but 200gr doing 1200fps is the typical idea of not-FBI 10mm Auto, and there's common .357 Magnum loads with that same projectile weight and velocity from comparable barrel lengths.Compare to the typical 9mm NATO load of 124gr doing 1200fps, which isn't bad either (9mm NATO is basically rimless .38 Super), 10mm Auto does the same velocity but far more weight, optionally it could load a 180gr projectile going even faster, and still be a lot heavier, so it adds up.Does any of that make 10mm Auto the ideal military pistol cartridge? Could perhaps be argued, but I feel that 9mm and .45 are probably a safer bet because they're simply easier to shoot and are still adequate.
>>64397595>>64397688>>64398569>the Px4excellent,or picrel
>>64397586POW, RIGHT IN THE KISSAH
>>64397586> just stop giving the troops beat to shit guns.how do you do that without replacing them?
