How viable would late-war German military equipment have been during the Cold War if production and support had been maintained? (IRL it became useless due to the lack of spare parts and production.)Would various Panthers II and E-75s have been able to stand up to T-54/55s, Pattons, and other classic equipment? What about the older Panthers I and Tigers II?
>>64403784They would be fine vs hordes of T-34s
>>64403784I treating thread, bump
>>64403784E-75s 105mm gun is something MBT tier. 88mm gun on Panther 2 would be more than enough to deal with T-55s and Pattons. Tigers II and Panthers I, on the other hand, with their obsolete optics and limited mobility would be something Is-3 tier.
>>64403784panther II was only meant to have frontal armor of 100mm and 60mm of side armor and some changes to its road wheels to take the increased weightit would have been inferior to the M48 or any other 1950s-era tank
>>64403823Also new turret, Tiger 2 gun, stereoscopic sight and night vision.
>>64403832>Also new turretthe new turret is assumed to be the panther scmhalturm, but its never actually been seen>Tiger 2 gun, stereoscopic sight and night vision.thats from war thundertheres no indication that the panther 2 would have had either of those things because it was cancelled before they finished a single turretthe 88mm gun was also just one of several suggestions, no turret was ever made so the final gun design was never settled on, it likely would have had the same 75 as the panther if the turret ended up looking like the small turret eventually designed for the panther 1
>>64403784>Would various Panthers II and E-75s have been able to stand up to T-54/55s, Pattons, and other classic equipment? The 88 is a good gun, but something bigger would be desirable to ensure penetration and kills at various angles and places on the tank. T55's and M47's would have armor dangerously close to blocking an 88 shell at reasonable engagement distances (though the M47 does have a quite vulnerable turret), this is bad.If they were to be considered 'equal' on the battlefield their armor is already there for the most part, but the gun definitely needs to be upgraded. The 128mm is just too much to practically fulfill the needs of an (early) MBT, and while it would have no problem with any tank besides shit like the T-10, it is impractically large. A 105mm would probably be the closest thing, as the germans already used 105mm guns (albeit not generally as AT guns), so it is likely this would be the calibre chosen. They would almost certainly have rangefinders of at least equal quality, albeit the glass may have quality issues, probably not.>What about the older Panthers I and Tigers II?They would fall flat for the most part. These are both wartime vehicles, for a losing and desperate side at that, so they lack much of the quality and refinement of later vehicles. Against their familiar and intended foes they would be fine, but anything above an M46 would really be pushing your luck. It would probably be a turkey shoot for the enemy regardless.
>>64403841irc there was talk of an autoloader for the long 88
>>64403784Main reason the E-75 was never followed up on and Germany started over with the Leopard 1 was because the suspension and transmission design was just flat-out worse than the what the Americans and Soviets were doing. It's a choice between having a tank that moves and having a tank that moves 70% of the time.
>>64403784You mean if Nazi Germany had survived WWII and the Cold War was a three-way contest between Third Reich-dominated Europe, the Soviet Union (maybe minus its Western territories), and the United States (basically the plot of 1984 at that point, but let's run with it)?The Panther IIs and E-series were kinda a technological dead-end since the medium and heavy tank concepts pretty much died out by the mid-1950s. If the regime had survived, these would either have been dropped altogether and an MBT designed entirely from scratch or dramatically redesigned to incorporate improvements like composite armor to cut down on weight.>What about the older Panthers I and Tigers II?Unless you could shove a new engine, drive train, and transmission into Panthers and Tigers (at that point, you've gutted the tank so much that you may as well just build a new one), their battlefield utility is going to be extremely limited due to the simple fact that they're still going to be plagued with the reliability issues inherent to 1940s technology. Also their armor definitely wouldn't have stood up to post-war tanks that were all fielding guns in the 90-105mm range (there were already plenty of cases of Tigers being lost to Shermans and T-34s).If anything, the modernizing Wehrmacht would have simply offloaded their surplus Panthers and Tiger I and IIs onto client states like the NDH, Vichy France, Arrow Cross-ruled Hungary, Francoist Spain, or Reichskommissariats-turned-Fascist-client-states in Ukraine and the Baltics, where WWII-era surplus vehicles would still be more than enough for running over protesters.
>>64403892>You mean if Nazi Germany had survived WWII and the Cold War was a three-wayI rather ment not desolated Germany and Bundeswehr before 1955.
>>64403841>before they finished a single turretWhat's this?
>>64403913Understood, in that case, something like Germany outsourcing more of its tank production abroad (ex. they set up factories churning out Panthers and Tigers in Paris and they fall into Allied hands virtually intact upon liberation of the city in 1944) would be a good addition to the scenario. This actually happened with the Bf 109, which remained in limited production in Spain and Czechoslovakia after the war, with the last one rolling off the assembly lines in 1958, well into the Jet Age.
>>64403948>What's this?something elsethe reason why the panther 2 recovered has a panther 1 turret on it is because they didnt have any suitable turrets to place there
>>64403784The Arab states ended up with a lot of old German armor and still got run over by the Israelis
>>64403784E50 with a powerpack was basically the same as any early cold war MBT in terms of layout, armament and armor. The question would be whether or not the germans without wartime constraints could actually make their designs reliable. Could probably use an upgrade from the long 88 though, though I would imagine a germany without wartime constraints could squeeze a little more out of the 88.Clean sheet would probably yield a better tank though
>>64403963Wasn't most of the old German shit being used as static pillboxes by the time the Six Day War took place?
>>64403963>>64404009Here's my detachment equipment. Say something nice about it.
>>64404014>One Struggle
>>64403784this question would be better framed as>if The Reich were the one to enter the cold war with US and UK after winning the mainland war in Europe, how would its existing equipment had been maintained/developed?german equipment carried a stigma of being le nazi so out of sheer ego considerations the adaption was always frowned upon. Even if the parts factory was captured in a functional state Shortish answer is to look at current timeline how WW2 stuff continued. Korean war still featured T-34 and M4 shermans while other third party like Israel vs arabs featured old german equipment on both sides. More revolutionary stuff like avionics saw more rapid regeneration. As war ended stuff like Me262 and Gloster Meteor were the cutting edge. By korean war, a "expansion pack" of WW2, Sabres and Mig-15s were up and flying. I guess in the alternate timeline by time of early 50s stuff like the planned next iteration, swept wing Me262 would have been facing off the Sabres. Or perhaps germans would have also pursued a single, larger yet engine design as material science improved. They certainly would not have the luxury of gullible british simps giving them, for nothing, state of the art Rolls-Royce yet engine to build a plane around. like it happened with the Mig-15 Dont know much about artillery to comment on it but germans were well known to be keen on being at the cutting edge. Krupp used to be a well known name in world class arty pieces. Its during the mid 50s/early 60s when the real next generation to replace WW2 era hardware really kicked in. Specially in rocketry with the advent of the first ICBMs
>>64403823Panther II is a 1943 design, the M48 is a 1950 design. Like why are you even making the comparison?
>>64404074>Like why are you even making the comparison?>Would various Panthers II and E-75s have been able to stand up to T-54/55s, Pattons, and other classic equipment?the M47 would have been the best thing it could face off againstbut it really wouldnt have stood up well to anything post-war due to proliferation of sub-caliber rounds
>>64404066>swept wing 262Would've been the Ta-183, assuming Kurt Tank actually managed to unfuck the issues with the design. Given the Atar proved to be quite a successful, though a bit middling, design, I think the germans could've had a decent air force, assuming they weren't resource constrained.
>>64404066>Dont know much about artillery to comment on it but germans were well known to be keen on being at the cutting edgegermans were competent but conventionalthey didnt rock the boat too much and mostly relied on tried and true tacticsalmost all the pre-war dollars had been spent on airpower, tanks, and mech infantry with artillery advancements mostly being in ways to get them to keep up with their armored units
>>64404078Not that anon, but you say this as if any other post-war tank aside from the dead-end heavy tanks could've stood up particularly well against sub-caliber rounds. A sloped 100 mm glacis was pretty much on par with any other post-war medium/MBT. The main weak points of the Panther were the underpowered and heavy engine, the make-do final drive, and poor ergonomics, if you're gonna criticize the design at least point to the actual deficiencies of the design
>>64404097 (me)Oh and the suspension of course
>>64404097>A sloped 100 mm glacis was pretty much on par with any other post-war medium/MBT.the pershing and patton series, which is mentioned earlier with the M47 being the latest the panther 2 could have fought on any kind of equal footingbut the M48 and T-55 both increased their frontal slope to 60 degrees compared to the 55 degrees on the panther, which gave them some resistance to composite sub-caliber rounds
>>64404106 (me)Though the only real problem with the suspension was having too many roadwheels.
>>64403784Posts like these assume that that the other powers are not going to follow through with the production of their counters to these designs which they would have done if they had a reason to.I doubt the proposed German designs are going to have as enjoyable experience if the likes of the T29, T30 and IS-7 all enter service. The former two designs production was only cancelled cause the war ended.
Germany attempted to eliminate nickel from the armor plate specification (E40) for heavy tanks in 1943, but was eventually forced to revert to around 1% nickel with E41 and E42. Panther used the nickel-free E22.
>>64403784The single point of divergence occurs when Joseph Stalin orders the arrest of Marshal Georgy Zhukov. Instead of submitting, Zhukov anticipates the move, leading to a fierce gun battle where he eliminates the rival generals sent to detain him. With this brazen act, Zhukov seizes immediate control of the bulk of the Red Army on the Eastern Front and declares open rebellion against Stalin's regime.To secure his flank, Zhukov signs a swift, Second Treaty of Brest-Litovsk with the German High Command. This treaty is an immediate, unilateral cease-fire, signed by a German General in the field with the highest-ranking commander of Zhukov's forces, granting favorable peace terms to Germany and ending the hostility on the eastern front. this massive truce instantly frees the Wehrmacht to commit its entire military might to the Western Front.Meanwhile, the Soviet Union is trapped in a brutal civil war. As scattered pockets of Stalin-loyalist generals continue to resist, and various regional commanders eye their own autonomy, Zhukov begins his rapid march eastward toward Moscow with the primary goal of deposing Stalin and establishing a new order. During this period, Germany secures its victory with the cease of hostilities and the favorable treaty, leading to a far more powerful Germany in the post-war period, consolidating its gains in Eastern Europe and retaining significant industrial capacity.Crucially, the brutal internal conflict will, by the Cold War period, have resolved itself. A new strongman, effectively a Stalin-like successor, will have won the civil war and be in the process of rebuilding the Soviet Union from the devastation. This rebuilt, authoritarian state enters the Cold War era as a significant power, equipped with both nuclear power and a massive focus on industrial and agricultural output, symbolized by the ubiquitous presence of tractors. The Cold War is thus a three-way standoff between the United States, the powerful German bloc
>>64403784The Sdkfz. 234 chassis easily measures up to contemporaries like the equally long-serving M8 or 50's designs like the Alvis Saladin or Panhard EBR. While the Leopard was a change of direction, it speaks volumes that Spahpanzer Luchs was an updated do-over of the same ideas.
>>64404176OP is actually rather unique in not mandating counterfactuals like a continuance of WW2 or conditional German surrender. Consider instead a world where Spain, Austria, or an independent Czech Republic were wildly successful in development and export of captured German hardware, as firms like CASA and Avia achieved to a limited extent.
>>64404222In that sort of situation I would say they would struggle in a post war market without a radical redesign of the vehicles since as they stand you're basically talking at something that is only just as good as something much lighter than them if that. They might have some success in North Africa and the Middle East but markets like South America, Asia and Central-Southern Africa they are quickly going to face limitations due to their weight alone. Keep in mind the levels of transport infrastructure. Anything over 40 tons is a push and 50 is a big no no. Any reasonable nation would take one look at them, see the terrain likely to fight in and give a hard pass.What you might find though is that designs like the E-10 and E-25 if they go into production would be in demand sort of how the Hetzer saw production post war. If those could be built in numbers there would be interest.
French almost modernized panther tanks for germany but due its history germans said no :(
>>64404612that display is still at that museum btwt. went there last year
>>64404612
>>64404202Germany still loses to the Allies, only this time the Iron Curtain is a line from Leningrad to Stalingrad. Germany never beats the allies, no matter if they knock out the soviets or not. The US always has a massive advantage in industrial capacity and the ability to bomb Germany with impunity. The first atomic bomb is dropped on Berlin and the Pacific front drags on until mid-46.
IRL they were used to fight other ww2 surplus tanks. Still plenty of T34s being used in the early cold war.
>>64403963Israel also ended up with a lot of German equipment.
>>64403784The 88/L71 had a lot less room to grow than the 90mm and 100mm. The E-75 would have been a bigger failure than the IS-3. Like a worse M103 or Chieftain.Underpowered, underarmed, and probably complicated to manufacture.
Imagine Wehrmacht Heer if it had alpenflage, M56 helmet and Cetme with intermediate cartridge.
>>64404087>Would've been the Ta-183, assuming Kurt Tank actually managed to unfuck the issues with the design Ta-183 iterations would have been more of a late 1940s/early 50s step. I dont think they even made it past wind tunnel testing with the short time it had before the empire was destroyed. immediate succession of war time Me262 would most certainly have been improved designs of a functional jet relying on lessons learned from the old design. I.e. pic related But ta-183 does follow the idea of a single jet engine fighter which became the norm as the style of the time
>>64404827For 1948 they bought a handful of Avia S-199s, those shitty Czech Bf-109s with downgraded engine. All their German armored vehicles were captured from Arab armies in 1967 and 1973, mostly from Syria in the Golan heights, IIRC.>The Arab states ended up with a lot of old German armor and still got run over by the IsraelisSkill issue, probably. The Israelis were successfully using modified, upgunned Shermans against modern Soviet armor (crewed by Egyptians and Syrians) as late as 1973.
Even if Germany's advanced aircraft programs had any life left, they would have faced unknown challenges such as flameout, saber dance, deep stall, and flying wing flight stability.
>>64405218probably could overcome that
>>64405218I think that's the main problem. By being early adopters of this stuff, they end up with a lot of equipment that's obsolete faster. The StG was pretty good, but it's a boat anchor and 8mm Kurz is kinda underpowered compared to 7.62x39. It also had some durability issues in practice iirc. It's probably the best thing.Me-262 is Meteor tier at best. E-50 is 10-tons heavier than a Patton and not dramatically more protected, underarmed, and uses an inferior suspensions system. It gets eaten alive by T-54s and T-55s. Basically, they invest into the mass production of systems that are already obsolete by 1950; a similar problem to the Italians in WW2, where they had a very modern force for the 1930s but couldn't ramp up into producing enough modern equipment up to the standards of the 1940s.
>>64405218You say this as if everyone else didn't run into those issues, and also as if a good chunk of modern aerodynamics wasn't pioneered by german engineers
>>64407508>they end up with a lot of equipment that's obsolete fasterThey are also quicker to the punch on next generation aircraft concepts, being first is good, it gives time to iron out problems the sloths are only starting to become aware of.
>>64404066>this question would be better framed asNo?
>>64407508>I think that's the main problem. By being early adopters of this stuff, they end up with a lot of equipment that's obsolete faster.lol
>>64403784wasn't french still using these captured tigers at the beginning of the cold war?
>>64404022>not making the hook cross into a sickle cross with the hammer emerging ominous from behindweak design bait
>>64408424they used a mixture of M4 shermans and panthers, but not tigersmostly because they didnt have anything else worth using
>>64403784>Would various Panthers II and E-75s have been able to stand up to T-54/55s, Pattons, and other classic equipment?They'd certainly lose to M103s, Conquerors, and T-10s
>>64403870>steel-framed, rubber-wheeled, sprung-axled horse-drawn farrier's wagonOnly in the Wehrmacht.
>>64403892>a three-way contest between Third Reich-dominated Europe, the Soviet Union (maybe minus its Western territories), and the United StatesDon't forget the GEACPS. You gotta cold war max or what's the point?
>>64408130Yes, and often there is a second-mover advantage. It's not like NACA were aerodynamic slouches.I just think in these Heer 46 scenarios, you end up massively invested in the best equipment of 1946 that's obsolete by 1950. It would be interesting to see a force that issued 120mm mortars like candy, since the Germans liked them as much as the Soviets, if not more given the state of the Heer's artillery.
>>64403872It was more of ready-rack than a proper autoloader. A crewman still needed to feed the shell into the breech by hand, the system just made it so he didn't have to move as much in order to do it. Basically, Taylorism as applied to tank ergonomics.
>>64403892The E-50 *was* an MBT.
>>64403870The T-55 was designed around defeating the long 88's full caliber AP.
>>64403817>88mm gun on Panther 2 would be more than enough to deal with T-55s and Pattons.Errrr. It would be a chancey thing. More than enough is huge overstatement. It wouldn't frontally oenetrate either of them from much past 500m away, but either of them could frontally penetrate it from as far as they could shoot.
>>64403892confederates would side with nazis
>>64409005Vorvärts, kameraden!
>>64409149>he doesn't knowWait until you find out what 1940's Americans believed?
>>64409038This isnt Heer 46', its more like Heer 52', but whatever. The 120mm mortar was one of the most common mortars fielded by the Germans by the end of WW2, they would no doubt make follow up designs, a german version of the Nona or better yet, the PRAM. I wonder where their U-boat program would've gone given a few more years to cook.
>>64411657What the victorious Union America thought?
