The viability of conventionally deployed paratroopers has diminished a lot, they were already vulnerable, not disputing that, but the modern battlefield does not allow for conventionally deployed paratroopers, given the following:>Aircraft at risk from modern SAM's more so than 60 years ago>Paras have to deal with the same roving groups of AK and shotgun wielding AA troopers that drones have to deal with>Pretty much every section is issued a Manpad>Very predictable routes lead to easily created ambushesIn my view the only way for Paras to work on the battlefield is to either transform into just another elite infantry branch, like the arditi, or become heliborne troops, like the Russian VDV, and imo, to justify the Paras even existing as it's own thing and not become just another generic SpecOps, they should specialize in operations with helicopters, be it rapel, para'd or landed insertions.What do you lads think?
>>64407532>What do you lads think?Stealth aircraft for paratroopers or ODST
>>64407532>become heliborne troops,Airborne is heliborne except faster
>>64407532You're right that manpads and modern AA place them at risk but drones might compesate to some degree. Send the paras in with large-medium drones for SEAD and to generally run interference, and land them with a good supply of antitank FPV drones to stop them being wiped out by enemy armor and arti.
>>64407532if you're the US, you can afford to have specialties in everything from paratroopers, to mountain, to heliborne, to amphibious, etc. you have the spare resources to dedicate to the specialty just in case there's a situation in a war where there may be an opening to parachute infantry in then reinforce with incoming land troops.for everyone else, it really should just be heliborne like the dragoons of old.
They should be preserved as a tradition. At least for small countries and armies.
>>64407532Troops of any sort are obsolete since guns kill them easily
>>64407866Don't forget arctic paratroopers
>>64407532how else will you quickly insert troops into an area?
>>64407532If I was Chinese with that huge buff of not having to give a shit about my soldiers, I would just ask xi jingping to mass produce suicide drones/cheap oneshot aircraft in the thousands to drop paratroopers over taiwan, you wouldn't care if one got shot down because twenty more would be taking its place. then you have a million bugmen and armored vehicles swarming around like headless chickens
>>64407532They are obsolete since the 1940
>>64411563until we invent orbital drop troopers, there is no better way to rapidly insert troops into an area
>>64407839TL;DR Paras arrive 3 days after armored does.
>>64411609>Shoots your drop pods with laser beamsNothing personnel, kid
>>64407532It's the old "fleet in being" problem. Nobody would be stupid enough to try a hail mary on some high value target hundreds of miles into your territory with a para drop, but you have to organize your defenses to take this possibility into account or else somebody stupid will actually do it. Those defensive measures are no longer contributing to the actual fighting, which for all intents and purposes has neutralized them.>tl;dr paratroopers justify their existence by existing
>>64412881This kinda. Paratroopers are still regular infantry at the end of the day. Say if the US decides to enter the War in Ukraine, and moves the 82nd ABN to Germany. If they weren't Airborne, Russia would know that it's gonna take them a few days to get the front. However since they are, Russia has to be prepared for an airborne assault any place at any time within 24 hours even if they ultimately just move out over land.
>>64412881>Nobody would be stupid enough to try a hail mary on some high value target hundreds of miles into your territory with a para dropthey are also capable of much more mundane missions like rapidly reinforcing an area against attack
>>64407623>Stealth aircraftHarder than ever before, with greater quantities of more precise sensors searching a wider spectrum of emissions. For a transport plane I'd say it's all but inconceivable.>ODSTActually conceivable via Starship deployment. Most of the insertion envelope requires BMD-tier interceptors, something even the king struggles with, the "best" system having tested PK of only 56% via missiles that cost $75m each. The protected zones per SAM system shrink dramatically: the terminal stage still requires the same interceptor as a hypersonic munition or high-end fighter jet, while the suicide burn (only phase vulnerable to AA, MANPADS, obsolete SAMs) for a conservatively sized single-occupant reentry vehicle can occur at just 150m above ground!
>>64415602>Starship deploymentI was thinking more of a low orbit drop via satellite
>>64415725Far, far more practical to base on the ground and launch when needed. Space stations:>among the most expensive structures built by man>orbital dwelling challenges human endurance/physique>require a multi-unit constellation for adequate mission availability> must regularly and predictably traverse near/over potentially unfriendly>If neutralized at the start of hostilities, imposes less social penalties than a territorial first strike, akin to the difference between sinking a ship vs Pearl Harbor-ing someone.
>>64407532Paratroopers were never great. The Germans suffered heavy casualties using traditional paradrops, over Creta and during the invasion of Holland. Even during D-day, despite avhieving objectives, losses were heavy and air assaults were not attempted for the rest of the war. The role of air cavalry is also diminishing as helicopters face more of the same threats you describe in OP. The usefullnes of helos as supporting fire for air mobile formations is severely reduved by the sheer amount of manpads around.They do still fill a role as elite light infantry. But so do Marines in most nations, and they can also do amphibious assaults. Might just need to phase out paras for more marines and rangers.
>>64415777>Even during D-day, despite avhieving objectives, losses were heavy and air assaults were not attempted for the rest of the war.t. has never heard of the Los Banos raid
>>64407532There are two modes IMO>another elite infantry branchConventional Paras are one of the cheapest such forces to equip and least useful in a coup, which makes them ideal as the centerpiece of a third-world military.>orbital dropsSpend lavishly to maintain the first-strike, threat-in-being, anywhere-anytime benefits that a major power is interested in, just as keeping Paras was once a major flex of military-economic might.
>>64411609Yeah there is, it's called helicopters.
>>64415832planes have helos beat in speed, range, and cargo
Infantry are obsolete. Just use missiles and artillery.
>>64415777>despite avhieving objectives, losses were heavy and air assaultsbut there was literally no other way to achieve the same results that they were able to accomplish>and air assaults were not attempted for the rest of the war.that is an actual lieparatroopers were used in operation dragoon in southern france and then later in the crossing of the rhine
I think they should add a Wacky Brigade to 82nd and explore new ideas. Maybe some milsim enthusiasts will have to try out these ideas.
>>64407532>In my view the only way for Paras to work on the battlefield is to either transform into just another elite infantry branchuh, isn't that already the case?you got special forces groups that are paratrooper specialists.if you're talking about mid-level infantry like Marines or Rangers, then not even paratrooper Marines/Rangers make any sense.for mid-level infantry, air-assault just makes more sense.
>>6441584982nd Airborne just rehearsed a 1,200 man night drop in September, clearly still solid enough justifications behind the capability for it to survive the ongoing budget shuffles.
There are multiple airfields near my home. My subdivision has zero ability to counter a para force. I’ve brought it up at the HOA meetings. Repeatedly. Crickets. We’re sitting ducks out here. I’ve got upside down duct tape on my roof. Three flashlights taped together on a tripod out back and a firepit on wheels I can haul to the end of the driveway ready for a match. You’ll paras better start on the next block. This one ain’t playin.
>>6441590182nd Airborne should be transformed into air assault infantry, no joke.
>>64415925We have the 101st and 11th for those missions>Mooom, why does Sam get three whole airborne divisions?
>>64415901this is the last hurrah for the 82nd >Army to reclassify 22,000 airborne jobs, ending jump pay for many paratroopers.
>>64416531shaniqua doing finance doesn't need to be on jump status
>>64415602I'm rock fucking hard at the idea that ODSTs could eventually be viableI don't fucking care what the cost/benefit looks like NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING, humanity has developed thus far would even come close to being as cool as this.
>>64411553Battery tech is almost there where you can have a 100kg payload drone fly at 150kts for two hours.
>>64411553somewhat related:what do the economics of flying a thousand cessnas with paratroopers in them vs flying a couple big vulnerable troop planes into contested airspace look like?
>>64416874Cesnas? Too expensive (cost of production, transport, maintenance, storage, fueling, ...)Battery-powered compact hoppers? Now that's another story. Still, battery tech still has to advance a bit more.
>>64416904>be me, patrolling the western coast of Taiwan in the early hours of the morning, summer 2029>hear a faint sound in the distance over the noise of the waves crashing>almost sounds like music>orchestral music>it's ride of the valkyries>see a bunch of black dots appear on the horizon>the sky is rapidly blackened with thousands upon thousands of chinesium quadcopters carrying soldiers blasting ride of the valkyries
>>64416904>>64416933Didn't Hamas try this at a concertI mean apparently it worked
>>64416874You...want to...train an entire division/brigade...To be pilots that are so well trained...They can fly in close formation, under likely effective enemy fire, without breaking formation, while having pinpoint accuracy in possibly inclement weather and EW conditions, with full aerial navigation skills that let them know when to jump...Just so you can literally jettison them behind enemy lines.Are you on crack?
>>64416995>You...want to...train an entire division/brigade...>To be pilots that are so well trained...>They can fly in close formation, under likely effective enemy fire, without breaking formation, while having pinpoint accuracy in possibly inclement weather and EW conditions, with full aerial navigation skills that let them know when to jump...>Just so you can literally jettison them behind enemy lines.Plecisely.
>>64416904I'm not convinced this kind of craft will ever be more than a meme. I mean maybe with turbine levels of power density. But the inherently inefficient rotors coupled with the power density of current batteries just makes it a toy. Looks like a lot of fun, though
>>64417139>>64416984it's essentially an improved low-altitude mobik scooter: can cross any terrain, fairly fast, and hopefully in sufficient numbers that even the AA Autoguns shut down after their kill counter reaches 9999So perfect for chang to try and cross the Strait
>>64416711Not only is it AWESOME, the cost/benefit is shockingly more practical than it may seem. The line item for the 82nd's Immediate Response Force capability FY2024 was something like $24B - slightly higher than NASA's entire budget - for over 4000 elite infantry prepared to board C-17s bound for Uncle Sam's next swatting victim in 18 hours or less. Starship's ability to deploy that force in only 60 minutes with far less regard to anti-air capabilities is very likely one DC is willing to pay a premium for. It's a nuclear option for domination objectives with none of the proverbial fallout.
>>64415775NTA, but I think if we're going to talk about orbital mobile military forces having the ability to both insert via suborbital trajectory and staging forces in LEO make sense in different capacities.>suborbital insertionsMore difficult to intercept, detectable via classic boost phase early warning systems, must more compromise payload for fuel, greater mission flexibility, staging area protected by CONUS AD.>LEO stagingHigher payload, faster response time, first strike bait, smaller interception window (once launched).In my mind the majority of the orbital force is staged on the ground, with a fraction of the force rotating through month-long orbital deployments. The force already deployed in orbit is the primary orbital QRF, everyone else will serve as their relief force as part of a follow-on insertion. The short deployments prevent the worst of microgravity's side effects, and necessitate a launch tempo that keeps training and readiness high.
>>64417174I agree in principle, but this kind of capability is something that needs a robust industry to enable. Like how commercial shipbuilding and mercantile demand subsidized battleships for hundreds of years and airliners made paratroops affordable. Falcon and Starship have built the launch infrastructure, but the supply chains and industry demand for orbital stations of any kind will take decades to materialize at sufficient scale. One stepping stone at a time, yeah!
