If you got good EW on your jets, you don't need stealth. Right?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71SjjxKK0Z0*koff*Vulcan bombed USA in test runs*koff*
>>64411366wrong, any emission no matter how sophisticated can be geolocated with modern ESM systems and a missile guided to that pointmodern air to air warfare are sensor-shooter tactics using stealth planesswedes are coping because their industry is not large or sophisticated enough to develop a 5th gen fighter
>>64411366>If you got good EW on your jets, you don't need stealth. Right?No.
>>64411389>swedes are coping because their industry is not large or sophisticated enough to develop a 5th gen fighterBut the Germans are buying this exact EW system for their SEAD-optimised Eurofighter Tranche 5s instead of just relying on stealth with the F-35s they're getting
>>64411389>located with modern ESM systems and a missile guided to that pointWhat if?>plane detects incoming missile>automatically disperses a dozen small cans, each containing screaming radio transmittersWould the missile targeting system not get confused and miss?
>>64412611>But the Germans are buying this exact EW system for their SEAD-optimised Eurofighter Tranche 5sAre they?>instead of just relying on stealth with the F-35s they're gettingThe F-35 doesn't just rely on stealth: It has the AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda Electronic warfare/countermeasure system, a very advanced integrated EW suite. For SEAD/DEAD missions, just one F-35 is able to geolocate a threat emitter faster than a flight of three F-16CJ Wild Weasels data-linked together, from a further distance, and fire an AARGM-ER from its internal bay at 100nm+ distance all without the threat emitter being able to even know the F-35 is their. Moreover, being stealth and having an RCS of 0.0003m^2 compared to the Eurofighter's 1.0m^2 RCS means it needs substantially less wattage when it uses its EW system for EA. The F-35 also uses its radar as part of the EW system, and can put enough wattage into a very narrow beam and fry the enemy's radar. It's also connected to the countermeasure system which will automatically jam, act as a HPM to fry the missile, or launch chaff, flares, or active decoys to trick the threat missiles. It has way more features that what I mentioned, but, you act like it only has stealth as its defense. For the Cyberwarfare part, it can literally hack into an IADS and inject malware, or take control of the radar and turn it 180 degrees to the F-35's attack vector, so the radar can never see nor engage it. Look up project SUTER, if you want to know more. Though, there's not too much out there about it, as it's obviously highly classified. But, the standard F-35 is a 10 times better platform for SEAD/DEAD than any other platform on earth.https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=56869
>>64412699
>>64412699>>64412702How is one pilot expected to look after all this shit, especially when in contested airspace? Seems like the mental load would be too much even with the computer systems helping out.
>>64412719You underestimate the load sharing software can do. Pair this with the fact that a lot of the things the F-35 does is cued directly into the HUD, it's a lot more intuitive.
>>64412699>Are they?nta, but yes>According to reports, the 20 new aircraft are to be equipped with Saab's Arexis self-protection system. The Arexis sensor suite for electronic warfare is already planned for the 15 Eurofighters intended for electronic warfare (EW) by the German Air Force. The wing tips will be replaced for integration.>According to the manufacturer, Arexis is a proven EW suite for combat aircraft with the latest sensor and self-protection capabilities. It has a modular design and can be adapted to almost any modern platform. Saab is being supported in the project to equip the EK Eurofighter by Helsing, its strategic partner in the field of artificial intelligence (AI). Arexis enables users to detect, locate, and identify radar transmitters in complex and crowded elemagnetic environments.https://www.hartpunkt.de/luftwaffe-neue-eurofighter-sollen-selbstschutzsystem-arexis-von-saab-erhalten/
>>64412699Come to think of it, why isn't there a Growler equivalent using the F-35 as a base?
>>64411366Stealth is just another tool, if you have a bunch of aircraft like the F-15EX which have advanced EW and are technologically superior to anything else in the air that isn't the F-22, you're going to win engagements.
>>64412699>Are they?Yeshttps://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2025-10-germany-orders-20-new-eurofighters-to-strengthen-air-superiority>Airbus will equip the 20 Eurofighters with the latest sensors. This includes, for example, the new electronic E-Scan radar. In parallel, Airbus will add electronic warfare capabilities to the German Eurofighter fleet by integrating the Arexis sensor suite, developed by Sweden’s Saab, in existing and newly built aircraft.Note the new wingtip pods in the render replacing the old Praetorian system
>>64412699>one F-35 is able to geolocate a threat emitter faster than a flight of three F-16CJ Wild Weasels data-linked togetherThis is what blows my mind. If the Gulf War was a masterclass in SEAD with those 80s platforms, imagine the capabilities of the F-35 today scaled up to current threats. You also mentioned the AARGM, I can't wait to see what the SiAW will do considering it shares some of the AARGM seekers but apparently has even more seeker modes for everything in addition to antiradiation.
>>64411366Eh....no. To use the flashlight analogy, EW is like using a strobe light to fuck with the enemy's ability to see you. They can still tell you're there, they just can't range you. Some missiles will just switch to ARAD mode and chase the jammer and if they get close enough they can still get a return on the aircraft. This is is known as Burn Through range. The latest tool in the EW arms race is the Towed Decoy. It mimics all the signals a real aircraft would generate and in a pinch can throw up jamming to bait missiles to the decoy rather than the plane. However, burn through still applies and you could write an algorithm that tells to missile to go for the leading radar contact rather than the trailing. The solution is to combine low RCS and jamming. This drops the Burn Through range to practically nothing.
>>64412813>The latest tool in the EW arms race is the Towed Decoy. It mimics all the signals a real aircraft would generate and in a pinch can throw up jamming to bait missiles to the decoy rather than the plane. However, burn through still applies and you could write an algorithm that tells to missile to go for the leading radar contact rather than the trailing.They've gone further now and made Expendable Active Decoys, which were developed by the Brits for Tornado and Eurofighter after having used towed decoys for a decade or two.They work with existing countermeasure dispensers.The US ANG units that operate F-16CM have started using it as AN/ALQ-260(V)1, supplementing the AN/ALE-50 towed decoy.But now the Brits are advancing to use "smart dispensers" that allow registration and programming of individual countermeasures in the dispenser. They have paired this register with the the plane's datalink and an improved version of the decoys, to enable remotely changing the decoy's emissions, based on an updated sensor picture from the plane's DASS.
>>64412733Any shots of the HUD with all this information showing?
>>64413037
>>64411389Wrong. Big difference between detecting emissions and locking on to a target to engage. The point of an EW system is to stop getting locked/breaking locks either through ECM/Decoys/Flare/Chaff not detection.
>>64412907Shit keeps changing, doesn't it?
>>64412611they bought F-35s only because they are certified for B61-12, they have conflicting interests with the US therefore don't want to get fighters with the entire supply chain controlled by US>>64412620it works but only reduces the probability of kill, definitely not the first choice if it could be avoided>>64413715obviously a ESM system will not generate tracks with pinpoint accuracy but they will be accurate enough so a missile seeker gets closer than ECM burn-through range and can acquire the planethat's one of the reasons miniature self defense missiles are being developed, datalinks and C2 comms are simply getting too hard to counter to deny this tactic
>>64412611>But the Germans are buyingDo you expect Germans to do Day 1, kick the door off the hinges and start blasting, SEAD/DEAD?No. They'll go into airspace already cleared by the USAF and USN.
>>64412907>ANALE towed decoy
>>64411366The Rafale, is fully the equal of the F-35, Su-57 and J-20 as a fifth generation fighter. Like the KF-21, it is a 4.5 gen with development potential to be further upgraded to fifth gen. That is why many countries, such as India, Indonesia, Qatar and the UAE which have requested F-35s or were looking at other fifth gen options like the Su-75 and KF-21, are now Rafale users.The Eurofag Typhoon meanwhile remains a 4-4.5 generation aircraft with no further development potential, and the countries who are using it primarily (UK, Italy, Spain etc) are all F-35 users and have no incentive to develop it further.If the Rafale was made by a non-NATO country, they would call it 5th gen.
