Are paratroopers no longer viable weapons in modern war?
>>64414748they arent going to be replaced until we can invent jumpjet infantry
>>64414748They were never viable weapons in any war.
>>64414748They're viable for countries that can into SEAD and air supremacy (i.e. Americans)
>>64414748paratrooper drops work for night drops with silent aircraft(we have none) using night vision gear we're willing to dish out in mass(we won't)A silent aircraft is along the lines of small personal aircraft with silent running prop engines and 80% efficiency propellars (we use something like 24% range, made for speed over sound)
>>64414748Why don't we use gliders or squirrel suits now?
>>6441491260% of paragliding is a landing zonewhere's the landing zone for 200 dudes anonwhere
There is really only one real use case for them left and it’s airfield seizure. The current issue with the army is that they have been sending every retard POG that wants a Pokemon badge to pin on their shoulder for promotion points and an extra $160 a month. The standards have dropped and the amount of money wasted on it is fucking asinine. We don’t fucking need airborne graphic designers. 101. 82nd. 75th. Special Forces. That’s it. Thats two fucking divisions, a regiment of Rangers (the only guys that will ever really theoretically even do that), and SF mostly just to train foreigner fags to blow out their knees.
>>64414883If you can """" SEAD"""", then you can capture an airport. After which, you can land normal infantry by plane. Paratroops have gone the way of horse cavalry.
>>64414932Every single MLAT results in multiple troops even high ranking officers and NCOs breaking both legs and ending their careers.
>>64414914>where's the landing zone for 200 dudes anonYour mom has a landing strip for 200 dudes
>>64414932>then you can capture an airportthe airborne will be the first on the airport to secure it>Paratroops have gone the way of horse cavalry.we still have no better way to insert troops as quickly as planes can
>>64414932>If you can """" SEAD"""", then you can capture an airport.With airborne troops>After which, you can land normal infantry by plane. And who secures the runways so the big planes can land? PARATROOPERS!>Paratroops have gone the way of horse cav-ACK!
>>64414925I say do the opposite of the VDV special needs operation, send the tanks in first.>US invasion of Iraq style armored push into an airfield>THEN send in your paratroopers*>*WWII style gliders/landing craft of some kind except either armored to tank one or two AA hits or built with enough radar stealth to not get locked and able to survive rough landings if the airstrip is damaged or unusable in the assault, not just dudes parachuting. (Glider troops still count as paratroopers.)**>**Unless people who actually know anything more than playing war themed vidya and browsing /k/ think that it would be safer to just send in dudes parachuting, it seems hazardous to do at an airfield actively being attacked though.***>***Actually now that I think of it, fuck the paratrooper bit. If you're sending an armored push, just add a bunch of Bradleys loaded up with crayon eaters who are told that the enemy at the airfield was overheard saying unkind things about their lifted pickup trucks and fat girlfriends back home
>>64414748It's a dead horse tier:-paratroops-attack helicoptersMerely downgraded tier:-tanksFuturist trap meme tier:-FPVsStill good tier:-infantry-guided missile artilleryGood but overrated tier:-loitering munitions aka gold plated western FPVsThe future is now tier:-DEW antiair
>>64414963horse cavalry ended because motorized cavalry was invented that did the same thing, but the cavalry role was clearly still importantwe are yet to see the equivalent replacement for paratroopers and are unlikely to ever see any until we are able to beam the soldiers from an orbiting space station directly on to the battlefield
>>64414925>Thats two fucking divisions*one division, one brigade, 101st Airborne stopped doing combat jumps in the 60s. Nowadays they're only considered "Airborne" because the entire division is airlift-capable (by helicopter). 173rd Airborne Brigade is still jump-qualified though.
>>64414973things still in use for the forseeable future tier>infantry>tanks>paratroopers>any kind of helo>artillery
>>64414925>There is really only one real use case for them left and it’s airfield seizurerapid reinforcement and insertion into difficult terrain
>>64414748Shredded by drones, theres a reason the VDV isn't dropping in ukraine anymore
>>64414979>Nowadays they're only considered "Airborne" because the entire division is airlift-capable (by helicopter)I think it's been accepted since at least the 1970s that heliborne is actually what paratroopers are about far more often than the jumping out of airplanes. And that's fine, they constitute a mobile force of shock troops which is far more viable than their WWII role in a high-risk, low-frequency endeavour. The speed, precision, and flexibility of helicopters allow for the rapid insertion and extraction of troops in a variety of terrain and under a much wider range of threat scenarios, that's great for rapid troop movements, targeted raids, and FOBs.OP is still fag of course, the paratrooper image is still the ethos in the same way marines pretend they're going to do the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan.
They have zero use in LSCO. If, for example, a China conflict kicked off, there is no possible way to do an airborne jump into theater, because the big, heavy, slow aircraft needed would get shredded by SAMs over the ocean hundreds of kilometers from the X. However, due to the cultural inertia and image of airborne troops as badass warriors, we keep spending money on maintaining the capability. It's asinine.
>>64415060>However, due to the cultural inertia and image of airborne troops as badass warriors, we keep spending money on maintaining the capability.they maintain the ability because getting troops into theatre quickly is a large advantage and theres no better way to do it
>>64414748Have paratroopers ever accomplished anything except in WW2? Apart from dying en masse, that is.
>>6441493275ths doctrine is to drop onto the airfield and seize it with light infantry then land support craft. They literally break down mini birds and roll them out the back of a 130. Watching those dudes is honestly fun as fuck. As soon as the ramp drops there’s a bunch of fat fucks on the flight crew shouting and running like it’s a fucking bobsled team to get it down the ramp. Some other fags (JTAC maybe?) palletized a bunch of dirt bikes to haul ass around on.>>64414963>And who secures the runways?I mean these days it’s usually armor or technicals depending on the size and defenses. It’s not like we’re really caught by surprise by a whole lot anymore and while seizures are the last real use case they definitely aren’t the preferred methodology by anyone except a boomer airborne Sgt Major desperate for his mustard.>>64414967Honestly yeah this is preferable. Bombard the shit out of the airfields defenses and roll in with armor and you’re are going to see a whole lot less casualties. It’s not like we’re can’t blow any threat it would put up out of the sky.>>64414979>173rd not 101Sorry always get the puking gecko mixed up with 101>>64414984>Rapid reinforcementAerial QRF in Afghanistan was absolutely always done out of 47s and blackhawks and terrain doesn’t get much worse than that. A jump onto a mountain is pants on head retarded.
>>64415072They did a drop in Afghanistan. Onto an airfield that SF had already seized. The SF were drinking beers and laughing at them as they came down.
>>64415074>A jump onto a mountain is pants on head retarded.israeli paratroopers were dropped into the mountains to remove syrian helo-borne troopers and succeededhelos cant go as far or as fast as planes can and function more as a way to give infantry just a bit more speed and reach, but paratroopers still have them beat in both
>>64415072israelis used paratroopers to seize bridges to allow their armored forces to pass through, they also used them to contest the high ground for artillery spotting, and they used them to quickly reinforce areas against attacksplanes are fast and can actually more cargo than helicopters, so paratroopers are effective at any role where you need a lot of men in the area quickly
>>64415060I figure most of the capability is really about being able to drop non-person stuff https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-YsSL65quM
>>64415083And in casualties. It’s a desperation maneuver anon. The value of assets lost from faulty rigging exceeds the value of anything it’s accomplished since WW2.>But Israelis and SyriansSyrians are shit soldiers and always have been. I’d wager the Israelis were doing the same badge stacking faggot shit as the airborne command was in Afghanistan.
>>64415099They dropped the paratroopers on one end of the bridge to delay the enemy from blowing it long enough for the tanks to cross and secure itThere was no better option than paratroopers to do it
>>64415058>>64415068The demanding standards of jump school are also pretty useful at weeding out non-hackers from elite units. If you weren't able to cut it just learning how to parachute from an aircraft, then they don't need waste time and money putting you through the Q-Course.>>64415072>what is Operation Tomahawk>what is Operation Dragon Rouge>what is Operation Junction City>what is Operation Atilla>what is Operation Urgent Fury>what is Operation Just Cause>what is Operation Rhino
>>64415109>The demanding standards of jump school
>>64414748Infantry in general are completely obsolete. As are airplanes, helicopters, tanks, battleships, carriers, and destroyers. Just lob missiles at your enemy until they surrender.
>>64415117>30% washout rate
>>64415119>Just lob missiles at your enemy until they surrender.t.
>>64415127Think again.
>>64415130>Nazi Germany literally pioneers the "lob rockets at your enemy until they surrender" strategy>the end result:
>>64415144The technology was new then. It's been perfected now. There's no need for crayon eaters running around shooting AK's or knights of the air pretending they're contributing to the war. All you need are missiles for offense, and missiles for defense.
>>64415149What we REALLY need is missiles for law enforcement.
>>64415149>The Army is obsolete!>Just give all the funding to the bomber/missile forces!>This will absolutely not be retarded and will cause zero problems!Yeah, that was the hot new take in the 1950's Anon - just carpet nuke everything the enemy has and you'll just need a small ground force as military police to enforce the peace rather than fight the war. It doesn't work, and you're retarded.
>>64414988Also the fact that the vast majority of the original VDV are dead.They mostly went by helicopters, not parachute drops, though.Still, the result spoke for itself. They had what, 20% dead before they even landed at Hostomel?
>>64414748>massive hypersonic missile barrage on anti air positions combined with infantry offensive and airborne landing>airborne units mounted on serial temu electric bikes dispatches with various EW jamming devices and activate optic wire fpvs to assist infantry progression by destroying artillery positionsMaybe we wont see massive airborne landings but they still have a key role to play
>>64416187Time is a flat circle, anon.
>>64416214It's not clear how many VDV died before landing, but they indeed took the airfield and were reinforced by land with their own armoured vehicles (see pic related). But then they became sitting ducks, waiting for the stuck main column in the north that never arrived, constantly hit by ukrainian artillery and ambushes in the outskirts of Kyiv (like the infamous images from Irpin).Basically, an even more retarded Market Garden
>>64416282>Basically, an even more retarded Market GardenThis is why it's known as Makeshift Market Garden.
>>64414963>And who secures the runways so the big planes can land?Helicopter infantry
>>64415109>The demanding standards of jump schoolIt has a 90% pass rate.
>>64416187 is right>>64415149read up about the escalation ladder and the effects of relative advantage at different escalation stages.
>>64416282>But then they became sitting ducks constantly hit by ukrainian artilleryHow did they not learn from Iraq? America gave them the blueprint.
>>64416364the capabilities of the American air force might as well be alien compared to everyone else on the planet. Knowing that aliens can do something doesn't mean you can repeat it
>>64416364The US when into Iraq expecting actual resistance, and planned for it with overwhelming force and logistics.Russia believed their own propaganda about Ukraine not willing to fight, and planned for a shallow show of force including sending riot cops and secret police to purge civilians in the first wave.
>>64414771Fort Ében-Émael? Crete?
Only way it would work is if you used a bigger plane and dropped way more men.Guppy time
>>64414925101st is air assault. 82nd, 173rd is important as well.
Paramotors are the future.https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20zvqe3qd5o
>>64416364>F117s circling Baghdad like the fucking MP Evas.Genuinely chilling imagery.
>>64414750I hope china sends russia free jetpacks. Then we can see flying meat getting misted mid-air.
>>64418242Just airdrop tanks at that point.
>>64418406what if you dropped them on top of your target and the tank exploded upon hitting the ground
>>64415125Right now the only droppable criteria are: >can't do a 10 sec flexed-arm hang >falling out of 3 of the runs which are at a brutally slow pace>jump refusal in the bird/towers >safety violations>getting caught getting blackout drunk in columbus or some shit>FTR to the formations Basically the standards at airborne weed out only the most weak and retarded human beings who managed to fail their way through basic/AIT/OSUT. It is a filter, but to call it "demanding" is like saying air assault school is the 10 hardest days in the army- it's bullshit
>>64414748dk but I like Genocidal Organ's take on futuristic paratroopers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra0YU6HT6mA
>>64414748>>64414771>>64414899>>64414925>>64414973Parachuting is just an insertion method, just like amphibious vehicles and IFVs/APCs. Infantry is still infantry.Also: You drop paratroopers either AFTER SEAD/DEAD or when you have air superiority.
>>64414748UGV with heavy weapons make them somewhat more viable. Each airborne platoon or squad having it's own robot mule that can carry 30mm and AT missiles or give soldiers the ability to ride along make them still viable, But they still need to be used en masse.
>>64414979>>64418254>>64414925Ahem...
>>64414748A thousand dead helicopters trying to replace them says no, and that answer is not going to change if what happened to the VDV is any indication.
>>64414748>>64414771>Counterpoint;Africa.
>>64414914A beach? You could land 20,000 men easily in the fields outside my town.t. Upper Midwest.
>>64419892Dude I'll fuck ur asst. ass rapist
>>64416214Ah, the start of that short three day special operation. So long ago.
>>64416214Good day for MANPADs.
I don't care if they are viable, they are cool as shit.
>be me>play original Star Wars Battlefront>when playing on Clone Wars with friends, we'd all crowd into a single LAAT as Jet Troopers, jump out of the gunship when it was flying at high speed/altitude and use the jump jets as impromptu parachutes to slow descentWas I on to something /k/? Could you use jetpacks as a substitute for parachutes?
>>64415125When I was there im pretty sure most of the washouts were APFT failures
>>64414912Mid-air collisions.
>>64414748>Are paratroopers no longer viable weapons in modern war?Small, cheep and effective man-portable guided anti-aircraft missiles have made Normandy-type mass parachute assaults impossible, too many aircraft would be shot down before the paratroops could even get out and the same applies to Iwo Jima-type mass amphibious assaults; small, cheep and effective anti-shipping missiles would sink half the force before it even got started.Para and amphibious units are exclusively special forces nowadays, used in small direct action missions with complete surprise.
>>64426272I was thinking about that, and our technology is too advanced, hell, they're starting to dig tunnels in Ukraine due to all the drones they've been using.
>>64426204Yes, if it's powerful enough. That's basically how SpaceX lands rockets, and Soyuz uses rockets to slow the capsule's descent. The jump scene from 08th MS Team has something similar. https://youtu.be/c9RFiTo9TFM
>>64426146Came here for this. It is probably the coolest way to enter battle.
>>64426281>the technology in Ukraine is so advanced they must literally fight like WWI.>>64416271really is correct
>>64426272>cheepNice fucking TRY. You're a BIRD! I KNOW YOUR FUCKING TRICKS. QUIT SPYING ON US YOU FAGGOT BIRD
>>64414748Airborne's strength is strategic mobility. A battalion of the 82nd arrived in Saudi Arabia four days after the Iraqis crossed the Kuwaiti border, with the rest of its brigade following shortly after. There's a lot more to war than just the shooting.
>>64416364The American leadership in 91 were so as mad about Vietnam that they assembled the strongest military force in world history and spent months preparing to take on a third rate Arab shithole that had to resort to WWI style gas warfare to take Iranian trenches manned by literal children. The beat down was so severe that even the best efforts of the administration in 03 couldn't fuck up the actual invasion part of the Iraq war despite massive cost cutting and neocon insanity.Russia's invasion was planned by people jerking themselves off about how epic taking Crimea was and how they could just do that to the whole country, forgetting how the totally not Russian forces got rekt by Ukrainian militias outside of the isolated confined of the Crimean peninsula and that the AFU had spent a decade being strengthened by NATO.
Like all SOF it's an expensive way to improve the esprit de corps and mobility of light infantry in peacetime. You can get some impressive results out of it as a win harder force, but the same daring and cohesion that makes them effective also means that in a high intensity war they get slaughtered quite quickly.
>airfield capture this, airfield capture thatJump in then BUILD an airfield.
>>64415072Yes. In a whole bunch of different conflicts.
>>64415149You never go full Douhet.
>>64416338Aero-troops suffer the particular issue of viability, there a place for both and they shouldn't replace each other in such a mission, but there is a clear advantage that paratroopers have when inserting into an LZ.
>>64414883>They're viable for countries that can into SEAD and air supremacy (i.e. Americans)America would be totally incapable of establishing air superiority against a peer or near-peer power like China or Russia though.
>>64427490>country that pours unimaginable amounts of resources into air power wont be able to secure air powerthis is a non-argument on par with saying that russia stands no chance of securing artillery parity with a near peera worse argument, if anything, since ukraine manages to hold their own against russian artillery using a comparatively small quantity of western artilleryif they can absolutely dominate russia at their own game, then its quite clear that russia has no hope of challenging in the skies in any way
>>64427490Air superiority isn't like an either/or situation. There's such a thing as *local* air superiority, or gaining air superiority for a period of time before it becomes contested again. You don't necessarily have to destroy the entire enemy air force before you can do anything else.
>>64414973>attack helicoptersThis is retarded anon. Everyone only perceives that attack helicopters are less useful now because for a period of time they were more useful than expected. Attack helicopters were conceived to do one thing well: defend against armored fists. When they were then introduced, people began to realize that you could use them for close air support, scouting, ect. and also realized that armored charges aren't that common in modern warefare. Which led to a lot of people using them for stuff that they were never intended to do in a counterinsurgency role. As time went on and more countermeasures developed they stopped being useful for these peripheral tasks especially in a full scale war. But they are still very useful at the one thing they were originally envisioned for.
>>64416828First of all, Eben-Emael was done with gliders, not by paradropSecond, these days it would be done by helicopter air assaultMount Hermon battle is the closest thing to reenacting Eben-Emael.And Crete was such a resounding success that Germany never tried something like that ever again.(That said, it was the least terrible option out of awful choices they could have tried)
>>64428888>Attack helicopters were conceived to do one thing well: defend against armored fists.Actually, attack helicopters were conceived to protect transport helos and support air assault units.
Paratroopers/airlift are viable in some circumstances. They're impossible in any contested airspace and require SEAD/DEAD. Getting entire brigades into theater without a need to resupply them by land is still quite valuable.
>>64426718Decent enough idea during WWII but most modern jets can't handle improvised runways.
>>64430519>>64426718Why not jump in and capture a highway, and use that as a runway?
>>64427439He definitely needs more kit.>My knees hurt just looking at that photo.
>>64416364Damn the quality of this guy's videos dropped over the years
>>64430519>AN2 matting goes brrrrrrrrrr
>>64426718They did that during Operation Junction City.
>>64430759I think a big issue is that he has focused on small unit missions recently, like a recent one with Tora Bora, where they get bogged down animating individual guys instead of large scale stuff like the Gulf War Air War video
>>64430519Wrong. https://youtu.be/y-XSj9Y8iWE
>>64432222There's something beautiful about a palletized airfield (some assembly required)
>>64432222>>64434052What material are those pannels made of?
>>64434060Aluminum
>>64419553they’re just neverserveds parroting others’ talking points, anon. they don’t even know there is a whole other airborne division keeping watch in the north. they probably don’t even know there were combat jumps in the pacific theater and in Korea
>>64434745So? And there was a bayonet charge in Afghanistan. Doesn't mean it's not completely and utterly obsolete.
>>64415080epic
>>64414771They are useful in Africa for COIN operations.
>>64434752Bayonets were replaced by semi and full auto weapons providing better CQB capability Paratroopers currently have nothing close to their capability, only helicopters come close
>>64435817Paratroopers have been replaced by accurate ballistic missiles.
>>64434745That "whole other airborne division" is two brigades and only one of them is airborne. It's just USARAK under a new name.
>>64435870Are we dropping troops into the area with missiles?
>>64414912The night wind
>>64414748Depends on if the enemy has an IQ above 85 or not.
>>64436433the value of quick deployment troops sounds more determined by your own strategic planning than the enemies
>>64436449Sure, in a videogame where the AI is braindead and will take zero measures to counter you, that'll work great.In reality all attempts will be met with failure.
>>64436461>in a videogame where the AI is braindead and will take zero measures to counter youif you play at a competitive level, then what does and doesnt counter something is public knowledge to both playersknowing that a certain unit can be countered by another unit does not mean you stop deploying that unit especially if it provides a unique capabilitythis is true regardless if you are fighting an easy-level AI or a high ELO competitive sweat,
>>64436472don't care, didn't read, even alcoholic retards hunt paratroopers for sport, their age is over and may have never existed.
