this would bring the total number to 50, 35 have already been orderedhttps://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/boris-pistorius-will-weitere-f-35-kampfjets-in-den-usa-bestellen-a-d5c111c5-b32d-4624-bc73-4c7abca15ff5
>>64420173Cue the europoor and libtard seethe
>>64420177Why?
>>64420203They hate the F-35 lul.
>>64420237Why?
>>64420237No they don't, turdies hate the F-35 because it outclasses everything they have, it's really not a left/right thing, more a good guys (us)/bad guys (third worlders) thing
>>64420238Because they think that not buying F-35s will be a big own to Orange Man when realistically it's the best thing you can get
>>64420177>>64420237>imaginary winnings of MAGA
>>64420263>things I just made up in my head
>>644201736th gen programs aren't looking so good
>>64420269>>64420283>>64381933March 2025>The chairman of Denmark's parliamentary defense committee said he regrets choosing the F-35 for his country, citing fears that the US may threaten to cease support for the fighter.>"As one of the decision-makers behind Denmark's purchase of F-35s, I regret it," Rasmus Jarlov, a member of parliament for the center-right Conservative People's Party, wrote on social media on Wednesday.>"Therefore, buying American weapons is a security risk that we cannot run. We will make enormous investments in air defense, fighter jets, artillery, and other weapons in the coming years, and we must avoid American weapons if at all possible," he said.What happened to that?
>>64420263Nobody thinks that. Presidents come and go.
>>64420309>some incoherent ramblingtaste the curb MAGA
>>64420173inb4 Krauts pull out of FCAS and just stick with F-35s while everyone else has moved on to fifth gens, the way they stuck with Phantoms and Tornados until the Eurofighter
>>64420367Maybe if you let them make them under licence.
>>64420309>What happened to that?They can't afford them you sperg
>buy F35 jets>realize they work only half as often as advertised>have to buy more to bring your active jet count up to the required amountSuch is life in the German Cuck Zone.
>>64420367>>64420369it's more comparable to how Germany stuck with Tornado and Phantoms while everyone moved to F-16. Germany is precisely not doing that mistake again. FCAS or an alternative (GCAP or some other new project) is still on the table.>>64420373I wonder what causes your butthurt, are you French by chance?
>>64420173built with what rare earth metals?
>>64420556China doesn't have a monopoly on reserves
>>64420582Hahaha krauts doesn’t have any resource to begin with
>>64420376The Tornado, is fully the equal of the F-14, F-15, F-16 and F-18 as a multirole fourth generation fighter
>>64420556i dont know nigga, maybe the rare earths mined and refined outside of china, which has gone from a position of a monopolising 95% of all mining and refining to only supplying 60% in the last ten years, and is projected to be at 30% in ten yearswinnie the pooh played his hand too late on this frontcope seethe and dilate below this line------------------------------------
>>64420616>samefag butthurt frognigger still spamming the same rafail copepastaHow’s the frognigger national budget situation btw ? Would s&p downgrading affect the breastfeeding of dassault to build something more than Rafail in a body kit ? Indonigger diversified their fighter procurement must’ve hurt badly, isn’t it ?
>>64420309That is Denmark. We are talking about Germany here, you fucking retard. Do you even read OP? >>64420173 Also Denmark should have bought Gripen anyway.
>>64420173It's wild to me how these European countries insist on subjugating their countries to the whims of the United States. It's completely conceivable that the US would brick the entire F35 fleet if they ever get into an argument with the EU on trade or anything else.
>>64420707>It's completely conceivable that the US would brick the entire F35 fleet if they ever get into an argument with the EU on trade or anything else.not really, no
>>64420707trying to strongarm your supposed allies is really more of a chinese thing to do, see their recent chimpout over ree's for a nice example of it
>>64420658> 60% [citation needed]Krauts legacy carmakers is now on their knees begging China to lift its restriction on REE export, along with chip packaging process following the daylight robbery with the nationalization of nexperia.No packaging, no chip for krauts trashes :)
>>64420720Donald asked if this could be a feature in future US Export aircraft since 'what if our friends aren’t our friends in the future'.
>>64420738>trying to strongarm your supposed allies is really more of a chinese thing to doAmericans really have no self-awareness.
>>64420766Tbf it wasn’t really part of the US playbook until the current admin.
>>64420764Donald talks a lot of shit and he won't live as long as the F-35 will be in service in the German air force.
>>64420782>until the current admin.Plaza Accord says 'hello'
>>64420372They just bought 12 new F-35s lol>>64420692I mean, it's good that Germany bought F-35s in addition to Denmark despite all the seethe from leftist politicians and chronically online losers.That's who I'm making fun of, not the Euros.
>>64421201>despite all the seethe from leftist politicians>As one of the decision-makers behind Denmark's purchase of F-35s, I regret it," Rasmus Jarlov, a member of parliament for the center-right Conservative People's Party, wrote on social media on Wednesday>center-right Conservative People's Party
>>64421205I'd say that a center-right Euro politician is closer to a leftist when converted to burger politics but I'd be reaching, anyway I'm just happy Trump's trolling didn't get to you guys.
>>64421228The process of switching to F-35s has been going on for about a decade at this point and is way too far ahead and has cost too much money. Going back on it would cripple the airforce for decade and cost too much money and people were already seething about how many hospitals we could have built for those money and all that. Like the other guy said, we'll be flying F-35s long after Trump is in the ground.
>>64420604Krauts have money. The free market will provide.
>>64420707It's almost like the US has signed binding defense agreements and maintained an almost perfect century of babysitting Euros and letting them get better weapons
>>64420373>>64420743Imagine being dimwitted enough to believe this >>64420604Yeah 50 IQ online dimwit, didn't stop us inventing anything that matters until now
I would like to apologize for not checking the catalogue before making a second thread.
>>64421434Post F-35s and all is forgiven
>>64421448F-35 crane count?
Pretty pointless to buy more F-35s when they could just build ballistic missile launchers for less.Has the Ukraine war taught Germany nothing?
How hard are the frogs seething?
>>64421453Yes
>>64421463
>>64421517
The Navy didn't want to feel left out.
>>64421521
Shitlibs don't want Germany to buy F35s because orange man.I don't want Germany to buy F35s because they're eternal whores for Russian oil who will prop up Putin again after this. We are not the same.
>>64421539I want the Luftwaffe to have the capability to bomb London.
>>64421539>Shitlibs don't want Germany to buy F35sLiberals are some of the biggest NATO simps>I don't want Germany to buy F35sI do. TZD.
>>64421539so what butthurt shithole are you from? Germany is among Ukraine's biggest supporters at this point.
Any country that doesn't have F35s due to political or social pressure is fucking retarded. F35s are the only true blue 5th generation aircraft that is available for export and is going to be the absolute best stealth multirole aircraft for the next 3-4 decades. GCAP and FCAS if they actually finish development will end up only being on par or less capable than F45s because tby then, F35s will also be upgraded and likely be 6th generation capable by then.
>>64421539AfD will save germany, adopt a trumpian stance towards putin and partition pol... well at least do the first two. And you will seethe like a true libtard.
>>64421539>I don't want Germany to buy F35s because they're eternal whores for Russian oil who will prop up Putin again after this.Update your script, Germany already isn't buying russian oil anymore and in the process of phasing out gas purchases.
>>64420173How many F35s would it realistically take to defeat the russian air force?
>>64422498Maybe 50-100? Depends on a lot of variables.
>>64422498IDK, like three or four?
>>64420203Germans and other Europoors seethe uncontrollably that they can't design something as good as the F35. Cue someone posting about how their shithole was on the JSF team and that totally means that they contributed to the project substantially.
>>64420367>FCAS>GCAP Neither is going to ever succeed. International military projects always fail unless one nation is the obvious leader and the others are cheerleaders.The F47 is going to be the world's only 6th gen fighter for decades until the US decides to build a second one for export.
>>64421424>germans>inventingLmao. There is only one single German engineering company that matters: Zeiss All the others are trash.
>>64420556No fair that I can't make a thread about REEs calling out how China has zero leverage while chinkspammers shit up threads with this shit every time.https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/2025/10/united-states-australia-framework-for-securing-of-supply-in-the-mining-and-processing-of-critical-minerals-and-rare-earths/Another $2b invested between the US and Australia with a 6 month timeframe in addition to the US' $2.3b in direct investment and incentives since 2020, btw.
>>64422688The Austrialian investments will go somewhere, the US investments are useless. Every industrial investment on American soil is a fucking black hole that goes nowhere.
>>64422704>America... P-Please stop kek you can smell the fear from this post
>>64422688>makes /pol/ thread>gets deleted>pikachu faceLMAO
>>64422721>fearLol, more like disappointment. American companies enjoy ripping off the government and politicians get a kick out of seeing it happen. We subsidized the fuck out of US Steel for decades and they still sold themselves out to the Japanese. Intel has wiped its ass with CHIPS money.Look at what Boeing has done to itself. Look at what the automakers have done to themselves. The only good industrial companies in the US are ones that have inertia carrying them along from the 20th century. If the ball can stay rolling, failure can be averted, but if it stops rolling, it can't be restarted. LockMart can still build an amazing plane like the F35, but the second any capacity is lost it will be impossible to recover because every industrial investment program in America turns into a money furnace.
>>64422722I talked about REEs before the ban and it didn't get moved, jannies probably just forgot to check my IP
>>64421453I've always wondered why they allow pics like this to be released to the public. Won't it give other countries clues about the manufacturing process?
>>64422785>Why aren't rules enforced coherently and thoroughly.You're getting it wrong.
>>64422801Those pic are censored enough to make it kinda useless, you can see roughly the same things in a airliner factory. Even the pics showing the engine nozzle gets edited with a fake engine interior.
>>64422704If government investments didn't work then it's a damn miracle how the US went from refining effectively 0 tons of REE in 2019 to producing 8500 tons of REE today, to projected 22000 tons in 2027, which will be nearly double our demand. Surely it's it's not thanks to the mine to magnet initiative and investments, and companies just decided to enter this painfully undercut by the Chinese market, right?
>>64422682Have you ever heard about Aldi?
>>64422664They'll just call whatever they make out of FCRASH / GCRAP "6th gen" like KAAN, Sy-57, KF-21, J-20 or J-35 are "5th gen"Or how the Chink Doritos are "6th gen" already "in service."
>>64422664>>64423002My niggers, no need to shit on the GCAP. The Bongs and the Japs are doing 2/3rds of the work and even though it's probably closer to what a Ferrari F-35 or Super F-22 will be than a straight up 6th gen, it'll fill a niche because I don't think we'll ever export the F-47 except maybe to Australia and Japan.Fuck the frogniggers and FCAS though lolololol
>>64423077Japan is still salty they weren't allowed to buy the F-22 back in the early 2000s when they asked.That's what led them to doing the X-2 Shinshin 5th gen demonstrator, and then the followup 6th gen F-X program, which has now morphed into the current GCAP program.So I really doubt japan would bother buying the F-47 unless they got a sweetheart deal that was simply too good to turn down as the GCAP program is making good progress and japan would prefer to back a program that will lead to local jobs and tech development.
>>64423077GCAP is about the only project that is likely to be successful due to the Bongs and Nips. Krauts should've jumped into bed with the Japs this time again. The Japanese are one of the few that actually know stealth tech since they worked with Lockheed on the F22 and are getting F35s to study in addition to making an operational 5th gen demonstrator that they didn't put into production because there was no need at the time.
>>64421460Rafales are doing well thanks for asking
>>64423102>didn't put into production because there was no need at the time.Nah, it was more a realization that the F-35 they already had in service was going to suffice in the short term and they should focus on the next 15-30 years.The X-2 was a scaled-down demonstrator; any real service airframe based on the X-2 would have had to be scaled up and that effort would take 5+ years and lead to an aircraft on par or worse than the F-35, which they already had.So instead they decided to roll the X-2 R&D effort into a 6th gen development program to enter service by the mid 2030s, instead of 5+ years they were looking at a ~15 year development cycle, ~5-8 years of R&D, ~3-5 years for prototypes/testing, and then a final 2-5 years for low rate initial production and service entry. Getting help from Italy/UK was just a nice happy bonus since they were all sorta looking for the same thing and all had complementary R&D efforts and aviation industry capabilities.
>>64421193Plaza Accord was not similar whatsoever
>>64422825It took me a sec but a lot of the section of the jet is blurred.
>>64420173>this would bring the total number to 50, 35 have already been ordered>35 have already been ordered>"have already been ordered"deliveries when?German f35 sorties when?
>>64423815Googling it says the germans start training on them in the US next year and the first to arrive in germany the year after
>>64423815Production started on the first F-35 for Germany in December of 2024.Delivery of US-based training F-35s for Germany is expected in 2026, with non-trainer deliveries to begin in 2027.
>>64421502>the boomLMAO the absolute state of boom refueling israeli tier arrogancemaybe even exceeds it (previously unimaginable)
>>64420177>he doesn't know about the rocket revivalyou're actually retarded, take a seat kid
>>64423838Huh? I don't get your point. My picrel was a USAF KC-46 refueling an USAF F-35A.
>>64423831>>64423836honestly surprised Germans would knowingly buy a *kill-switched* producti thought yall were above that despite the multi-decade eu-nuch'ing that went down post Wall
>>64423850>hes going to use the boom refueller in "real war" and get away with itgood luck with that..!
>ctrl-f hydrawait, you're all retarded itti guess im in charge of special ed today, here you go
>>64423880What the fuck are you talking about
>>64423894moshi moshi retardo san, in waru timeu you are under threatu of attacku desu, you can't just park a sky gas station wherever you want
>>64423862There is no real kill switch, the two "kill switches" in place are the US is required to update the software that controls how the F-35 identifies and classifies threats and how it behaves around those threats. The other "kill switch" is the spare parts supply chain which the US controls so they can starve you out of parts if they wanted to.But there is no "kill switch" red button the president can press to disable all of the german F-35s all at once.
>>64420309It's not like they'll ever use them, might as well save the money and buy bicycles.
>>64423940Remember the uneven tariff deal that von der Leyen accepted? Europe has decided to cuck to Trump in hopes that america will still aid against russia in the 2029 russian attack.
>>64423935Sounds like a skill issue to me tbhfam
>>64423935And the probe refueler has what to do with this? You're not going to be refueling in the middle of enemy territory.
>>64424097Not him, he’s a retard swinging at ghosts.But I suppose theoretically, you can fit a probe-and-drogue system on a smaller aircraft that’s harder to detect and better equipped to evade, but that’s why less efficient and there’s a reason why buddy refueling is (to my knowledge) only a thing for carriers that fundamentally cannot launch even something like a KC-130
>>64422756>WeYoure definitely not from the US. I always find it amusing how turd world bownoids such as yourself are always so fixated and concerned about the value and well being of the American tax payer.
>>64420309>What happened to that?Its too expensive to maintain two different types of fighters. Everyone agrees on that. Most agree that it is unwise to buy American currently. The airforce needs more fighters.What is one to do really...
>>64424621You can tell it was a post made in bad faith after how he disappeared after >>64422884 called him out
>>64420556>>64422688This. The US has developed a non-toxic, cheap and scalable technique for refining, sub-human. Just like the Ames process Chiner uses to refine and pollute the ever loving shit out of their farm lands, air, and drinking water. The US innovates, Chiner copies, and copies badly.>A team of Ames Lab researchers at the Critical Materials Innovation Hub has developed a new, safer, scalable method for producing rare earth metals that utilizes the Ames Process. This new method, Rare Earth Metals from Alternative Fluoride Salt (REMAFS), uses an alternative fluoride salt in the production of rare earth metals, instead of the traditional rare earth salts that are made with harmful hydrofluoric acid (HF). Additionally, the method can be integrated earlier in the rare earth supply chain to reduce the number of steps required to convert mined materials to rare earth metals.>“This process uses... sodium rare earth fluoride. The difference is that sodium rare earth fluoride can be prepared without hydrofluoric acid,” Nlebedim said. “It can be prepared at room temperature, and it is very easy to scale, so you can produce large quantities of it.”https://www.ameslab.gov/news/researchers-develop-a-new-non-toxic-method-for-rare-earth-metal-processingBIG OOF>Critical Materials Innovation (CMI) Hub researchers at Ames National Laboratory developed a new technology for processing rare earth metals (Rare Earth Metals from Alternative Fluoride Salt (REMAFS)) that has now been licensed to Principal Mineral of Dallas, Texas.https://www.ameslab.gov/news/cmi-technology-for-rare-earth-processing-licensed-to-principal-mineralAlready being used.Also:>Scientists develop rare earth free magnet for use in industrial motorshttps://www.ameslab.gov/news/scientists-develop-rare-earth-free-magnet-for-use-in-industrial-motorsUH-OH, sub-humans!
>>64420707The US hasn't done that to them in the 80 years since WWII, why would you just assume they would now?
>>64420764Proof?
>>64420376Didn't matter because Germany didn't have to use them against a near peer adversary.
>>64423940Adding to this, if you buy American then you're going to have a hard time supporting your American assets anyway if you go to war with them or an ally. Same would be true of buying Japanese or German or whoever else.You don't need a literal kill switch, that's hollwood shit and introducing a deliberate flaw that someone else may discover a way to exploit. A modern plane that complex is going to be even harder to keep in the air without support than say, Iran's F-14s.
>>64425053sure but that's a dumb point to make, no offense. A military should always prepare for the worst case scenario.
>>64421392
>>64422756>t.
>>64423880Why do you need to even refuel within enemy targeting distances when your F-35 has 760nm combat radius? You can also have fighter escorts with your tanker. First, the enemy has to find the tanker that's 400nm+ away, though.
>>64423862>honestly surprised Germans would knowingly buy a *kill-switched* productProofs?
>>64423862Better than buying Russian systems and then have them back-stab you and give the codes to those systems to your enemies to bypass. Exactly like Russia did to Iran and Syria with giving their SAMs codes to Israel. We have actual proof Russia does it, do you have any actual proof the US does? Oh, and Germany wants something that actually work as advertised (or better), unlike Russian and Chinese systems.>Russia provided Israel security codes to access Iran’s Tor- M1 air-defense systems in exchange for an Israeli handover of codes to “hack” drones sold to Georgia, according to a leaked email from a private American intelligence company.https://www.jpost.com/defense/wikileaks-russia-gave-israel-iranian-codes>Iran has accused Russia of giving the codes for Syria's anti-aircraft missiles to Israel, a senior official in the engineering department of Iran's Defense Department told the Kuwaiti daily Al-Jarida on Monday.https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/report-iran-accuses-russia-of-giving-israel-codes-for-syrian-air-defenses-484777>Ariel Bulshtein, adviser to the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, has announced that Israel has refused to sell weapons to Georgia, at Russia’s request. He also stated a month and a half ago, that Israel had refrained from selling weapons to Ukraine at the request of Russia, in exchange for halting an arms deal between Russia and Iran.https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20191213-israel-and-russia-coordinate-arms-sale-preventing-deals-with-iran/
>>64424975>Most agree that it is unwise to buy American currently.IS that why they continue to buy American? The only countries that use that cope excuse are too poor to afford American equipment, can't because the US refuses to sell to them, or Russia and China trying to desperately sell their gear, or get Euros to not buy American gear that will BTFO any attempt by Russia or China to attack them.
>>64425172People don't realise that the F-35A replaces all that complex lifting fan stuff with a fuckload more fuel, or that internal stores also mean you only need to content with the weight of internal munitions, not the drag.
>>6442026313 European countries bought the F35.The only country seething is France, but that's not because of Trump, it's because they would prefer Europeans to buy French weapons.
>>64425216some more that might still follow as F-35 operators:>Spain>Portugal>Austria
>>64425210Just like they don't realize the F-35 can do mach 1.6 with a full internal combat loadout and fuel load, or completely clean. The F-16 may be able to do mach 2.0, but that's completely clean in a slight dive, after a couple minutes of full AB use. Once it hits mach 2 it has to refuel or land as that speed run used all of its internal fuel. But, put a center drop tank and a combat loadout on that F-16, and it will max out at mach 1.3. Same with the F-18 Hornet and Super Hornets. Mach 3 top speed looks good on paper, but it doesn't always translate to capabilities during wartime when you actually have to carry weapons, enough fuel to complete your mission, and sensors be it EW or targeting pods to also help complete your mission. Stripping all the paint off your fighter, taking out all the avionics not needed for an A-to-B speed run, and carrying just enough fuel to make the speed run and get back to the closest base is only good for bragging rights. Same with how Russia does with their air show prepped fighters to show how much more maneuverable their fighters are to US fighters. The problem with this is that they use specially prepped fighters that have all AOA, speed, and control surface movement rates and limits turned off, the engines tuned to kill, all avionics not needed for the air show taken out to save weight, and just enough fuel to do the air show and land right after, with the very best pilot the Russian military can find with basically unlimited flight hours and training funds thrown at him. With the F-22 and F-35 air shows, you get a war prepped fighter, with all the limiters on, all the avionics installed, stock engines, 50% fuel load, and a pilot that's competent, but not really anything special. Those F-22s F-35s could go to war right after the air shows unlike the Russian air show fighters. And any trained pilot can do those maneuvers in their own F-22 and F-35 in combat, unlike the average Russian pilot and their war prepped fighters.
Germany can SUCK MY DICK!OR COCK!
>>64425284alright, pull down your pants mate
news updateGerman defense ministry just denied the report from the OP. No additional order of 15 jets is planned currently.https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/verteidigungsministerium-will-keine-weiteren-f-35-kaufen-110.html
>>64420237No, the main combat role of the F35 in Germany is to serve as nuclear bombers as they are certified to carry the B61 gravity bomb.
>>64426817>Leaks confirm that Germany has preliminary, but pretty much already-decided plans to buy more F-35s. >Government department responds to journo that they "have no official plan" to buy more F-35s. Use your head, Anon.
>>64423862>honestly surprised Germans would knowingly buy a *kill-switched* productThe main purpose of the F35 in the German military is delivering the B61 nuclear bomb. Or at least it was until this new purchase.
>>64420556rare earth metal aren't actually rare, anon. They're literally everywhere.The key issue is not separating them from everything else but from each other.
>>64420556Presumably the Australian ones that the US just signed a deal to help bankroll the extraction of.Sometimes it pays to have friends, it turns out.
>>64420288Are the 6th gen craft even going to be available for export? I figure it's gonna be another f22 incident where the tech is too good/dangerous for export.
>>64421228>I'd say that a center-right Euro politician is closer to a leftist when converted to burger politics but I'd be reaching,A center right european politician is to the left of the american democrats. A "right wing" european politician is comparable to the left wing of the democrat party.
>>64420237???
>>64428073Anon is probably taking about the FCAS which is a complete dumpster fire rn
>>64428989Economically maybe. And on the topic of whether someone like Trump should be dictator.
>>64428989no. you don't know what you're talking about.
>>64430624No, that's accurate.Right wing politicians in Europe support universal Healthcare, which is a left wing position in the US.
>>64430913Well, to be fair, right wing politicians in Europe support sucking Russian cock, which lots of right wing politicians in the US also do.
>>64430913Not him but I think it's a bit of an oversimplification, the two party system in the USA makes things seem more polarised than they are
>>64431127>the two party system in the USA makes things seem more polarised than they areI dunno, they seem pretty polarized given that one side is like "they want to fucking kill us" and the other side does literally not exist.
>>64420237>>64420263I lean generally libtard and I LOVE the F35. Literally the most shining example of western-style globalism fucking over China and the third world there is. There's literally nothing any of it's opponents can do to fight it.The F35 gives me ENERGY with the seethe it's generates from thirdies.
>>64431207>lean generally libtard>western-style globalism fucking over China and the third worldThis is a pretty big deviation from libtard beliefs.
>>64431295With the number of things that could be meant by 'leaning libtard' I really don't think you can say that with any certainty.
>>64420309this is just irrelevant country butthurt about greenland. the usa is by far the gayest empire in world history. why do we allow these lesser nations to act this way? rome would have send a legion into denmark
>>64420177The term "Liberal" is NOT synonymous with anti-american, or even anti-war for that matter.You're thinking of hippies/tumblr. They're leftist in nature but not the same thing. It's like comparing a Wolf-Dog to a Dachshund.
>>64431328To expand on this......I'm a liberal, but I believe with certainty and absolute confidence bordering on arrogance that Islam is a religion of inarticulate hate and an ongoing subversion of human decency. I don't have an issue with MUSLIMS, necessarily, but I DO take issue with their general belief structure and that the most heinous crimes against humanity they commit deserve to be treated with the same degree of intolerance as, say, any neo-nazi or member of the KKK.I know who I am and I know where my heart sits. I don't need a power structure to tell me what parts of humanity I find tolerable and what I believe deserves to be snuffed out until any trace of it's perversions are nowhere to be found in human culture.Also, if you at any point read Pic related and got a sense of pride out of it, you're a LOT more liberal than you think.
