Why dont modern helmets have cheek plates?Also, why were the elite of the roman maniples spears? Were spears simply better?
>>64546662>Why dont modern helmets have cheek plates?Because modern helmets are for stopping shrapnel.>Also, why were the elite of the roman maniples spears?Because Rome hadn't figured out that swords are simply superior yet. Originally all of them were spearmen, then gradually the Hastati and Principes stopped using spears. And of course by the time of the Empire the Triarii didn't exist at all. >Were spears simply better?Of course not, the more Rome conquered the, more successful they became, the less relevant spears were.
>>64546662Cheek plates can make it more difficult to aim a rifle, and can prevent cheek welds eniterly.
>>64546679So just have it on one side. Asymmetry is fashionable anyways.
triarii
>>64546662Triarii had spears and swords. They were typically held in reserves and were to only be used in dire circumstances. The Romans even had a phrase called "to fall on your Triarii" meant you were in a dire or desperate situation. My personal opinion as to why they carried spears was to guard the rear of the Roman lines from a cheeky cavalry attack. Keep in mind the Triarii and other types of units disappeared (mostly) after the Marian reforms. I say mostly because spear carrying troops were more of a foreign fighter or auxillery unit duty after Marian.
>>64546662Apprently the Roman's only wore the roman military armour for a very short time later on they were dressed more like medieval era soilders how about that.I also think we been around for nearly 2k years yet we have all this advanced tech like fmri guns TVs phones cars and planes. They must have had some advanced tech back then. I saw a steam engine from roman times and n analog computer. They must have had some stuff that's lost.
>>64546682Oh boy! I get to have even more weight on my head and now it is all on the left or right side of my head basically ensuring I get to get all of my neck related injury claims denied by the VA!
>>64546696Sounds horrid. Not sur if being a trairiiwqsa good or a bad thing. ProsYou get to fight without retreating you will die and theres no back up. You get a real mans death.ConsYou stuck at the back you dont get to fight so no glory for you. And if shit hits the fan you die and there no back up for you.
>>64546704I hear you had to buy your own stuff back then only the super rich had all the gear you might be lucky to maybe have one.
>Were spears simply better?Yes. They went back to spears after a few hundred years of dicking around with swords and losing half of christendom to spear wielding saracens. During the Italian wars, every single city was bidding for swiss pike mercenaries. Pikemen won battles, not swordsmen. Swords only barely worked because of the shock tactics the Romans employed whereby they charged you with big shields and plenty of aggression. This obviously has massive drawbacks since if you failed to break the enemy, you're fucked. For example, Cannae, where they failed to break the ragtag group of Celts and mercenaries Hannibal brought into Italy.
>>64546703There are four distinct peroids of armor and equipment used by Rome (if you think Rome ceased to exist after the fall of the Western Empire; you had the early Kingdom days where they basically looked no different to Greeks, Early Republic which is the Hastati, Triarii, Veletes, etc., Late Republic/early Empire which are the Marian reform troops that wore the sterotypical Lorica Segmata armor, then finally the late Empire forces which heavily modified the army to the realities of what Rome was facing at the time. However if you do count the Eastern Empire as Rome that opens up a whole can of words I don't feel like writing, plus I already went full autismo in /akg/ talking about Hadrian and his twink lover Antinous.
>>64546710>No gloryTriarii were typically seasoned veterans and were happy to not have to be the tip of the spear (no pun intended) or screening troops like the Velite.
>>64546710Triaii did get rotated in to fight, and they were typically richer and more experienced men who had already seen combat, and being Triarii was a bit prestigious in and of itself.>>64546714Probably most armies throughout history had you buy your own gear, took it out of your pay, or gave you some supplementary stipend and a list. Being mostly issued kit is relatively new for western armies and in some cases you still need to grt stuff personally.
>>64546722Spear formations typically lack battlefield mobility and basically require you to play off of the land and use natural features to work. Hence why Greek city states fought this way if you look at the topography of Greece. Also spear troops require less training which plays into the militia/summer campign only nature of fighting in Greece. Sword carrying troops allow for more mobility and to actually stand a chance in a fight in urban environments.
>>64546737Marian reforms were unique in the ancient world in that soldiers joining the army did not have to pay for their initial set of armor and other gear. However, if you lost any of said equipment and lacked it on penis inspection days you were docked pay and forced to buy new equipment you were lacking. I think this is why the Lorica Segmata largely disappeared after Rome stopped expanding. It was expensive, difficult to maintain, and given troops had to buy anything after they were initially given they just stopped wearing it. It is interesting during a find at a camp along the Hadrian wall they found bags of spare brass fittings for the armor which indicates it was a common problem for it to wear out. I also willing to bet if soldiers were just on garrison/patrol duty they did not wear the Lorica Segmata and wore just mail with their helmet and shield. Then if there was a setpiece battle they would wear the LS.
>>64546748Literally all through history men have had to maintain their gearBasically every soldier from antiquity through to the early modern that wore mail carried a bag of links with themLittle hammers to ding out the dents on plate armor, in the ECW soldiers stripped Church rooves bare for lead to cast their own shot.
>>64546768>rooves
>>64546662>>64546722>Polefags, desperate to have even one successful thread in history, try to make a helmet thread combined with a spear thread.How sad.
>>64546773Yes.
>>64546768It was the excessive amount that was found. The LC was a maintenance nigjtmare.
>>64546691Literal gearqueers at the back of the line.
>>64546740>spear troops require less trainingSpearmen were historically the most disciplined forces in the world. Swiss mercenaries never broke and fought to the death.
>>64546839I didn't know there were time traveling Swiss Pikemen that would go back to antiquity.
>>64546880Macedonian pikemen didnt break. Hoplites didnt break. They either won or got flanked. Notice how in Rome itself, the most elite and giga veterans all used spears while the poor, young, undisciplined, got swords?
>>64546912I think you are conflating training with discipline with what I said was training. Two different topics. It is not hard to train a man to stand behind a shield with a spear. Hence why early Medieval/late dark age troops in Western Europe were mostly spearmen. You are arguing ALL spearmen were unbreakable walls which is not what I am talking about.
>>64546801But mail loops are found everywhere, I've never heard of it being any more excessive in maintence
>>64546662>why were the elite of the roman maniples spears?everyone in the roman maniple had a spear, they also had swords, javelins, and a sling + slingstones
>>64546880I am from the future and I can tell you that being a Chrono Pikeman is a good career choice. Go back in time, get hired by the city states, plunder some Lombooty, return. Nothing but non stop profit!
>>64546703>I saw a steam engine from roman timesmetallurgy of the time couldn't make one bear enough pressure to do any actual workit was more just pic than anywhere close to an industrial revolution
>>64546959I was talking about Lorica Segmata, not mail. Mail is far easier to maintain, hence why I said Romans wore it more often than the LC here >>64546748
>>64546703they had the maths to do cool science shit but not the materialsMaterials science remains the great bottleneck to our species technological development even to this very day. Just go start a room temperature superconductor thread on /sci/ if you don't believe me
>>64546981Yeah you throw it in a vat of vinegar and replace the worn loops, but that cant still be a time consuming processWhat I'm saying is I don't see why replacing loops and straps on segmentata, or hammering out dents, all of which you have to do with any sort of plate armor in general makes them a hanger whore
>>64546991The segmata has many more plates than later, more "modern" plate designs so I assume its basically just a question of having to do so much maintenance rather than any difficulty with the procedure itself
>>64546773Its hooves but not rooves. English is so incredibly inconsistent with its grammar.
>>64546682You should be capable of shooting off either side, Anon.
>>64547134Rooves was once the correct form, it's still technically acceptableWhereas loose isn't to lose, and is not correct and never has been for example
>>64547134At the rate english is changing, in 500 years we will be mutually unintelligible.
>>64546662This image of the Triarii is a holdover from the time they still fought as hoplites. Being a Triarii was primarily linked to ones wealth because the soldiers had to provide their own equipment. Thus the expensive and extensive equipment (heavy body armor, shield, spear, sword, dagger, helmet) meant they fought as hoplites. The other types of roman soldier of the old roman society (Camillan system - 400 BC) were far lighter equipped in comparison. Only in the 3rd century BC with the Polybian system did the position of Triarii became based on experience and wealth.Only with the Marian Reforms of the of the 1st century BC was the division of the soldiers based on individual wealth done away with and the experiment of most soldiers become standardised. The Triarii still remained as the position for the most veteran soldiers to be used once the fresh soldiers have been comitted.>Also, why were the elite of the roman maniples spears? Were spears simply better?tl;dr is that the Triarii were the heavy infantry while the Hastati and Principes were light and medium infantry.
>>64547295So heavy infantry used spears? Doesnt that just mean they are better?
I feels liek I'm having a stronk reading this thraed with all the typoes. OP are you dyslexic or just ESL? >>64546768>stripped Church rooves bare>>64547134>Its hooves but not roovesHolyshit, Its "Roofs". Christ this thread is 50% Clankers and 50% People who need handlers.
>>64547362Rooves isn't incorrect though
>>64547361They fulfilled different roles, Anon.
>>64547385What role? Dont they just fight the enemy?
>>64547387>Hastati>Large shield, light body armor, javelins and short sword>poorfagsFirst in line to face the enemy and test for weaknesses or ideally win outright. Maneuverability is key.>Principes>Large shield, medium body armor, javelins and short sword>middle classEngage the weaknesses the Hastati have identified and win. Maneuverability is important.>Triarii>Large shield, heavy body armor, spear and short sword>richfagsOh fuck the Hastati and Principes were defeated. Better to form a tight formation to ward off enemy attacks and either conduct an ordered retreat or fight them in a classical hoplite battle and win. Mobility isn't as important.
>>64547387>Dont they just fight the enemy?Oh you sweet summer child. There are SO MANY FLAVORS of "Fighting the Enemy" that it's something you assign to entire armies, not individual troops.So the Triarii had two jobs. First, they were anti-cavalry because you can brace a spear against the ground to counter a cavalry charge. Second, they held the army together when shit met fan. If the formation broke then the enemy could pick off each soldier one at a time so when the rest of the army was afraid and disoriented the Triarii would march in and force the enemy back. The trade-off was that the Triarii couldn't use Javelins. Princepes and Hastati could because they had swords and swords could be sheathed but you can't sheath a spear. This meant that the Triarii didn't have that 1,2 punch of javelins followed by a charge. Not really a problem for Triarii when they were reinforcing friendlies in melee but they didn't have that punch in the early stages of battle. Yes, I do like waxing poetic about the Roman Empire. It's one of the reasons I come to 4chan.
>>64547464>anti-cavalryI can't think of a single instance where Triarii were explicitly ordered to combat cavalry. The only deliberate roman "anti-cavalry" tactic I know of is from the Battle of Pharsalus where Caesar ordered his men to retain and not throw their pila when flanking the cavalry of Pompey - which was held in place by Ceasars cavalry.
>>64546671>The trade-off was that the Triarii couldn't use Javelins.>Princepes and Hastati could because they had swords and swords could be sheathed but you can't sheath a spear.>This meant that the Triarii didn't have that 1,2 punch of javelins followed by a charge. Not really a problem for Triarii when they were reinforcing friendlies in melee but they didn't have that punch in the early stages of battle. This is the first answer in the entire in the entire thread that addresses the OP and makes actual sense, thanks anon. They brought a big non-throwable pointy stick because they weren't used in the role where you hurled the pointy sticks you were holding.>>64547541Much of the reason of using cavalry is that horsies go fast. Cavalry flanked behind roman lines 1 time ever?
>>64547134That's what makes it fun.
>>64547541>>64547594 (me)And btw I don't mean to argue like an asshole, 'you listed 1 example so I think you think this only happened once ever', but I mean wouldn't commanders worry about this even if it was exceedingly rare, and wouldn't a cheap tool like a spear be worth bringing even to combat an exceedingly rare tactic.
>>64547594>Cavalry flanked behind roman lines 1 time ever?Are you asking for occurances where the roman linkes were outflanked by enemy cavalry? As far as I can tell in most battles the roman and enemy cavalry engaged before or adjesant to the infantry battles and whoever was victorious had then the cavalry advantage for the remainder of the battle.At the Battle of Cannae the carthaginian cavalry eventually won over their roman counterparts and then threatened the roman rear. Thus the roman advanced stopped and they got encircled. However at the Battle of Zama both sides began with ineffective cavalry skirmishes. Later when the carthaginian elephants were routed they trampled their way through the carthaginian cavalry - which was then entirely defeated by the roman cavalry. After persuing their fleeing foes the roman cavalry returned to the field and attacked the rear of the carthaginian infantry line, which had been in an even battle with the roman infantry line, thus securing the roman victory.>>64547603The issue with dedicated "anti-something" troops is that you don't know where the "something" is going to arrive. What are your Triarii going to do when a cavalry attack commences several hundreds of meters away from them?The issue is that there are no concrete sources on the combat roles of the Triarii. We know that they initially stemmed from the more wealthy stratas of roman society, a bit how they were armed & armored and that they formed the last reserve of most roman battle plans.
this entore thread is bots
they make mandible guards for fast helmets but they aren't very popular because they fuck up your cheek weld.
>>64546912>Hoplites didnt breakIs that why the Greeks went extinct during the Peloponnesian wars? They all fought to the death and there was no one left.
>>64546671shrapnel is also bad for the face/neck
>>64546728of course the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium) was Roman...the emperor at the time of the collapse of the western half survived and moved the capitol of Rome to Constantinople (he wanted to call it New Rome but the people wanted it named after him) - any other claim is ignorant and retarded. This has primarily up until fairly recently been hidden history in the west, mainly because if people knew that the so called "roman catholic" church is in fact not so roman and not so catholic (they had a thing for converting people to "submit to their pope" through threat of death by the tip of a sword - the Orthodox were organically Catholic (universal) ) -that if they knew not only the history of the world but the history of the Church as well, that they would become Orthodox...and that's not even mentioning the fruits of Orthodoxy vs the often nightmarish "fruits" of papists throughout the ages. it really is the most obvious thing in the world and thankfully droves of young and old are finally realizing it - and what looks like the oft prophecized golden age of the true Church before the end is lookin mightily nigh nowadays.please don't think this was a direct response to you, your post is fine, just about the topic itself
>>64548157>orthocuck coping and seething about Catholicsmore news at 11
>>64547295did none of them use slings? or were those more in the archers group?
>>64547295You forget the other reason why things were like this. Hastati were 18-25, year old and broke. Principes were 25-35 range and actually had some degree of wealth. Triarii were all seniors, they had 40+ years up to 60 and were actual land owners, had families and property they had to take care of. They were in reserve not because they were just heavier veteran infantry, they were physically less capable and economically less expendable, but they could buy better gear and were mandated by law to still go to war along with the young. To go the Triarii wasn't just a last resort, it was Rome as a society deciding to let the old sacrifice themselves to let the young escape and fight another day. At battles like Trebia they literally did this and sacrificed themselves to let the rest of the army retreat.
>>64548244In the old roman armies the slingers were the Accensi - the poorest and least dependable troops. Later on specialised auxiliaries like the famous balearic slingers were recruited and legionaries had a sling as a part of their kit. But for much of the Republic slingers were amongst the lowest soldiers.>>64548393Yeah I didn't touch upon the economic division in depth but you are right. It also makes sense regarding their equipment: the heaviest armor available and a weapon that keeps the enemy at a nice distance while still being capable of offending him.
>>64548091Cheekplates don't really protect the neck or eyes and the rest of the face is pretty shrapnel resistant. Jawbones and teeth are about as close to natural armor as the human body gets.
>>64546662We arent worried about people swinging swords at their faces anymore.
>>64546662>spearsEveryone else already threw their pila, the triarii are only going in to turn the tide of battle as the heaviest of hammers into enemy lines.
>>64546662>cheek platesThey do. Just not the cheeks you're thinking of.
>>64546912>Macedonian pikemen didnt break. Hoplites didnt breakboth of them broke all the time you absolute moron
>>64553459Not him, but I reckon his point is more along the idea that its exceedingly rare for a phalanx, especially a pike one, to be broken by a head on charge by infantry that are not also fighting as a similarly equipped phalanx. More often they are defeated by something (uneven terrain, flanking maneuvers, elephants going schizo), such was the case of Cynsocephalae, Pydna, Magnesia. Livy even discusses it in his what if analysis on Alexander invading Italy. Some of Pyrrhus' battles are a good example of the success the formation can find if properly supported.Of course never is too strong a claim, and there's a couple of examples from the Mithridaic Wars that showcase the legions ability to destroy a phalanx from the front, although I do question the quality of the Pontic phalanxes versus the Roman troops.
>>64546671>Of course not, the more Rome conquered the, more successful they became, the less relevant spears were.At no point in their history did Rome stop fielding spear troops, they just started drawing them from the Socii or Foederati. Even Legionary cohorts trained to use their Pila as spears, and later after the third century crisis they'd revert to really compact phalanxes to counter cavalry.
>>64546703late roman helmets also had cheek plates.
