Would someone calling CINCPAC Headquarters saying that Japanese planes were overhead (and presumably being believed) five minutes before they arrived over the harbor have made any difference? What about ten minutes, 30 minutes, or an hour?
>>64607532Claire Chennault told them the most likely attack would be early on a Sunday morning by carrier aircraft coming around the north side of the island. He was fired.
>>64607532>How much advance warning>someone calling CINCPAC Headquarters saying that Japanese planes were overheadt. pic rel
>>64607532the ideal scenario would be the US getting all their planes in the air and engaging the japanese before they got to pearl. the jappos brought a bige strike force but engaging them offshore would really have messed up their plans and anything that did get through would be less coordinated and would have to deal with prepared defenders. that said I still think that even with a few hours notice to get in the air and man defences it was still gonna be bloody
>>64607532Considering they had days advanced warning, and did nothing, it wouldn't matter.
However long needed to scramble even a handful of P40s over the harbor itself. All the Zeros were sent to suppress airfields, so the Kates and Vals attacked the harbor unescorted. Even a few minutes to let AAA gunners get to their posts and armed would make a world of difference.>inb4 "if the US was given warning then the battleships would sink in open water"Given the hit rates the Japanese achieved at Pearl Harbor and factoring in things like vastly improved AAA fire, ability to maneuver, air cover by land bases, the most likely outcome would have been losing very few if any of the battleships at sea.
>>64607532>five minutes before they arrived over the harbor have made any difference? What about ten minutes, 30 minutes, or an hour?Probably 30 min to an hour. People were not 5min away from where they needed to be to man the guns and launch the aircraft for a basic defense. In addition the extra time would help with their mental state, ready and organized instead of confused and panicked.I don't know how long it would take to get the ships moving and maneuvering, that would help immensely though at the risk that they would be harder to refloat than if sunk at harbor.
>Be FDR.>Your top admiral tells you there is a high risk of Japan attacking Pearl Harbor.>You have a melty and fire him because in your mind, such an attack is impossible.>The reason is impossible in your mind is that it really is impossible for the US Navy, and being a brown thirdie from a culture obsessed with saving face, you can't conceive of an adversary that is technologically and professionally superior to you.>Japan is, in fact, technologically superior with things like torpedoes that can be dropped into the shallow waters of Pearl Harbor, and professionally superior with being able to sneak an entire fleet across the Pacific without being detected.>Thus, it easily pulls off this attack that your brown mind refused to believe is possible.The OP question is the equivalent of asking which single trick Russia should have pulled not to botch the invasion of Ukraine on 9000 different levels.This isn't an arbitrary comparison, FDR's USA was a fascist shithole culturally very much alike with Putin's Russia, and fought wars in the exact same manner (meat waves + copepaganda).Even the conspiracy theory of "FDR had intentionally provoked Japan into bombing Pearl Harbor" reflects the same vatnik pidor mindset as "actually, we've shot down our A-50 ourselves with friendly fire, there is no way hohols could've done that.">Inb4 some mutt NPC gets a knee-jerk reaction to "his team" getting shit-talked.Not even your team. FDR's USA and modern USA are two different countries to the same degree as nazi Germany and modern Germany are two different countries. The civil rights movement was a revolution that had destroyed one country and created another one with fundamentally opposite values in its place.In fact, the living memory of the orc-tier meat wave tactics of WWII was exactly why the next generation refused to get drafted for Vietnam, snowballing into the said revolution.
One day we'll be able to have a thread on Pearl Harbor without presuming that just because somebody considered it a possibility it should have been expected to occur exactly as it did
>>64607664>FDR>brown thirdie WHAT
>>64607576they thought the attack was happening in the phillipines first
>>64607678>NOOOOO JUST LET ME RAPE 9,000,000,000 CHINAMEN YOU HAVE TO SELL ME OIL AND ENABLE MY IMPERIAL EXPANSION NOOOOO
If the radar contacts were correctly identified, that should have given enough time to send the message of incoming attack. Enough time to make the ships watertight, ready the AA defenses, and put friendly aircraft up to meet the incomings. Having too much warning, as in days' worth, and the battle takes place at sea (as the US fleet looks for the Japanese) and I think it results in even more disaster for the Americans.
Probably a few hours is enough.Put up some smoke screen, fighter cover. Ez
>>64607532probably around an hour mostly to get some planes up, that alone would have prevented a rofl stomp, it was said planes getting up that caused the nips to stop their attacks and fall back since despite not destroying everything they wanted they were worried about getting bogged down especially since they did not have the supplies to stay around
>>64607858>Having too much warning, as in days' worth, and the battle takes place at sea (as the US fleet looks for the Japanese) and I think it results in even more disaster for the Americans.In all likilihood I think that plays out with the Japanese calling off the attack. They had very up to date information on the fleet in Pearl, so if suddenly the American fleet sets to sea and the element of surprise is lost then I think they'd get spooked and withdraw. Everyone talks about the possibility of US ships sinking in the open waters but rarely considers that the Japanese would be fighting a battle 3,000 miles from safe harbor, while essentially running on fumes. Any damage to hulls or propulsion is likely to result in a forced scuttling or tow job, while the Americans would be right outside a major military port. Even if battle was given, the Americans could leverage the advantage of land-based air units to provide air cover and strike capability. Hell, keep the US fleet on the East side of the islands and you'd force the Japs to run a gauntlet to even get to them
>>64608027Now that's an interesting thought exercise. The Japanese fleet is discovered. What next? Yamamoto was skeptical of the entire war against the US in the first place. But by that point the crews were already prepared & trained to go. And they already expected to meet organized resistance over the harbor. That's why I said I think the IJN would win the open-sea fight, they're already veterans in 1941. They know their weapons work and how to best use them. Losses on both sides would be heavier but the Japanese still hold overall advantage.But outside all of that, I don't know if the Japanese government would allow a deescalation and return of the force. American neutrality could still hold out (a bit longer) but it's difficult to say "We can still negotiate" after the other side clearly tried to hit you.
>>64608071>they're already veterans in 1941Some are, but the crane sisters had almost entirely rookie pilots on board, to the extent that they were almost removed from the operation out of concern they wouldn't be combat-worthy. Ultimately they decided to pillage some vets from the pilot schools to round out the air groups and relegated those carriers to only performing ground attack missions. >I don't know if the Japanese government would allow a deescalation and return of the force. American neutrality could still hold out (a bit longer)Given the scale of the whole Philippine operation, I think it's more likely that they either launch a single wave that results in minimal results, or they withdraw to conserve strength but the war goes ahead regardless
>>64608099Ignoring Hawaii, for that time being, might be the call. A tough one but still safe/smart. With full hindsight, the US battleships stationed there are not going to be doing much in the war. And it's not like the attack knocked out the repair and refueling facilities. The harbor is still running even after being attacked. Perhaps the surviving US battleships show up at Guadalcanal, but the standards overall ended being shore bombardment platforms. Their survival doesn't sway things either way.For the Japanese: Take the Philippines, push the British out of their colonial holdings, and by that point try to aim for a kind of Cold War with the US while holding the territory in Asia. It's not going to last forever though and America would get directly dragged in eventually. And when they do, Japan still loses.
>>64607532A few hours, probably.>>64607544Once we combine Billy Mitchell, Claire Chennault and Harry Yarnell we'll be invincible.>>64607854More like 1939 Roosevelt resolved to join Great Britain in the war against Germany1940 Japan signs defensive agreement with Germany.1941 US & other countries at odds with Germany strengthen embargoes on Japan.
>>64608187I always find it amusing when people say 'if they'd attacked the fuel then the US would have been out of the war for X months!", and then you look up the battles that happened over X months before Coral Sea/Midway and:>Japanese Victory>Major Japanese Victory>Japanese Victory>Japanese Victory>Major Japanese Victory>Minor Allied Victory (pt.1 of battle)>Overwhelming Japanese Victory (pt.2 of battle)>Japanese Victory
>>64608514There were the early war carrier raids, which were arguably the prelude to Coral Sea/Midway, but I've never seen any research done into their feasibility if the fuel was attacked at pearl harbor.
>>64607832Ypu tryin to tell me a nigga named "Franklin" "Delano" "Roosevelt" wasn't a brotha?
>>64607576This MacCarther should be dug up and hanged
Fifteen minutes to get to general quarters would probably have been enough to save everything except the Arizona from actually sinking. Probably an hour gets enough land based fighter cover in the air to complete subvert the bombers entirely.
>>64609217It was a 9/11.
Watch Tora! Tora! Tora!The first half of the movie is the Japanese preparations and all the warnings that the US ignored.Then there's 10 minutes of planes lifting off from a carrier in almost complete darkness (which no sane filmmaker would do, it's kinda based)The second half of the movie is incredible action footage.You know it's good when the wikipedia article's section on historical accuracy says "It's been praised for accuracy" and then lists a bunch of nitpicks about models not exactly matching their real-life counterparts that no longer exist.
Enough time to scramble the fighters and man the AA guns. 30-45 mins to a couple hours if you gotta wrangle drunk sailors on shore.
>>64607532Changing the outcome of Pearl Harbor would have barely affected the course of the war.The more interesting question is, how could the japs have prevented the absolute disaster at Midway? Was it just bad luck?
>>64607664>You have a melty and fire him because in your mind, such an attack is impossible.FDR wanted America to join the war and knew the only way the public would be on board is if the US was attacked first without warning. Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen.
>>64611356If the japs got the carriers midway couldn't happened.
Doesn't matter. Pearl harbor was an inside job.That's why the carriers were away when it happened. Teddy knew it was coming, wanted it to happen, but made sure the really priceless stuff was safe. It was needed to sell the war to the public, just like a certain other inside-job.
>>64611356Use their battleships (and their escorts) as close carrier escort instead of them hanging way back.More AAA and chance that some US planes go after them.
>>64611356Midway was the decisive battle the Japanese always wanted, and they got their asses handed to them as would have inevitably happened.Even if the Japanese 'won' Midway, they'd have lost somewhere else and we'd be talking about that instead.All "what if the Axis won WW2" involves implausible scenarios.
>>64607532Not very much. Japanese planes were spotted by US radar and written off as unscheduled US bombers. If Pearl Harbor command had known a Japanese attack was possible they'd have scrambled a resistance. Both sides had about 400 planes of various types so it would be more of a stalemate with Yamamoto pulling out early rather than risk his carrier fleet. Biggest issue is that the USN hadn't gone with the AA upgrade Adm. Lee and the RPF fuse brought so even if they got underway they'd still be sitting ducks for torpedoes and dive bombers.
>>64607532>five minutesThat wouldn't even have been enough time to pass a warning to the rest of the fleet before the bombs started falling>ten minutesMaybe the first one or two ships to receive the warning could get to general quarters but the vast majority of them wouldn't. The USAF would still have been caught on the ground since the pilots were asleep and the planes were sitting in parade formation, unfueled and unarmed>30 minutes-1 hourNow this is warning that would've actually started to make a difference. All the ships would be at general quarters (but unable to sortie as nearly all of them would have been badly undermanned and some without fuel. Enough P-40s would be able to take to the sky to take on the Japanese attack force.>>64607664>FDR's USA was a fascist shithole culturally very much alike with Putin's Russia, and fought wars in the exact same manner (meat waves + copepaganda).I too hate Roosevelt but let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here.>>64608071>I don't know if the Japanese government would allow a deescalation and return of the force. Pearl Harbor was just one of dozens of strikes on American, British, and Dutch territories all across the Pacific that were planned to take place simultaneously. Even if the Japanese government had gotten cold feet and ordered a stand-down, I find it doubtful that would have made any difference. Remember, this is the same government that was unable to rein in the Kwantung Army and allowed it to effectively dictate Japanese foreign policy.
>>64607664>and fought wars in the exact same manner (meat waves + copepaganda).>Meat waves>Murica Not to say there weren't cases where HQ could have been less wasteful of american lives but you really got to look at it with a bit more perspective here.From 1941 to 1946, there were less than 410k deads and about 670k wounded among the military. Around 16 millions americans served in that period.About 250k deads occured in Europe and that was bloody.Still, those were the price to liberate Italy, France and Benelux. This is an area of roughly 900.000 km2, was done in about 21 months (September 1943 - May 1945) and resulted in about half a million dead germans and assorted allies.We are talking 1400km2 per day, at the cost of 0,3 american life per km2.Now, I don't have the same detailled ans verified numbers for Russian performances in the current war in Ukraine but if that's the benchmark for meatwaves, we already know there has been over 300k KIA on the russian side and that it achieved about 114.000 km2 in 45 months, with most lands taken the first month and most casualties taken after that. But even including the gains of the first month, this is about 2,6 russian lives per km2, hence about 9 times more losses than what you could consider "meatwaves" for America.
>>64611356>how could the japs have prevented the absolute disaster at Midway?actually taking cryptography seriously
>>64611546the carriers were away long before Japan even set out for Pearl, that and Enterprise was supposed to be there on the day of the attack but was delayed by weather so unless you think FDR somehow planned for that the whole thing falls apart and thats without even considering the attack said fleet that was sent to Pearl only knew what their target was just before being sent out
>>64607726It also has to be remembered that the post WWI drawdown and the Great Depression had hallowed out the US military and defense industries. American leadership realized that Pearl Harbor was vulnerable, just like every other military base or formation. Combined with lend lease gobbling up much of the crash built stuff left planned improvements to Pearl repeatedly deferred. It also wasn’t helped that local officers fearing sabotage ignored orders to improve readiness and defensibility.
>>64607532>(and presumably being believed)Wasn't there a civillian ham that'd clocked it, warned them, and was foil-hatted off and sent on their way?>>64607858>If the radar contacts were correctly identifiedthat, when a few days later they get radar pings...>>64614292lol.The entire thing was SAS-style, audacious and only really worked because no-one thought anyone would try it, so just allowed it.
>>64614311>ocal officers fearing sabotage ignored orders to improve readiness and defensibility.So... You phear sabotage, but don't feel inclined to check everything?
>>64614313You fear sabotage so you don’t disperse your aircraft gassed and armed or have your antiaircraft shell storage unlocked. A lot of stuff like that.
>>64607664>FDR's USA was a fascist shithole culturally very much alike with Putin's RussiaWhat the bait?
>>64607532>They knew and had others' warnings nearly a year in advance. Cousin-fucker cripple FDR - London's whore - allowed it. Same for facilitating nuclear proliferation to the Soviets.
>>64614258>Now, I don't have the same detailled ans verified numbers for Russian performances in the current warDouble post but whatever.We have a rough estimate for WW2, though.And that's another exemple usually thrown around to define "meatwaves".The Eastern Front was a massive thing and the initial german offensive really did a number on the red army.If we want to be fair to the soviets, let's NOT take into account the losses from 1941, since most of them weren't so much a case of "meatwaves" as a case of germans capturing whole armies then butchering the POWs. Soviets screw up massively but that part didn't help the stats either.But from January 1942, that initial offensive had been stopped and the soviets started to push back.Conservative estimates put the KIA at around 8,1 millions men for the fighting between January 1942 and June 1945.In that time, the USSR :Got back to its pre-war bordersTook most of Eastern Europe, the Balkans and a chunk of Germany.About 2,55 millions km2 in 42 months. That's about 2024 km2 per day at a cost of 3,17 soviet lives per km2.Which is about as costly as what Russia is currently doing but the soviets were faster, apparently.
>>64614333Welcome to /k/eddit.
>>64607854>japan evil for imperial conquest>america not evil for doing the same thing + firebombing + atomic bombs + occupation for 100 yearsthe mind of an american
>>64614572>+ atomic bombsJapan: Strike against naval fleet - Legitimate military targetUS: Nuke two cities of civilliansThat's always stood out to me...I mean sure, there was manufacturing base there, with 'war output'. I hear rumours of leaflets being dropped to warn civillians. But does that make it 'right' to nuke civillians, who in all probability likely had no f'kin clue what was happening...
>>64614591>But does that make it 'right' to nuke civillians, who in all probability likely had no f'kin clue what was happening...1940's: the japanese are ontologically evil! let's nuke them until they're all dead!now: the japanese are so adorable and make all our videogames. let's breed them out of existence and cover their islands in muslimsamericans just can't stop genociding people
>>64614572Yeah no, Mitsuhirato.Your ancestors got the nuclear slaps and the kawaification that followed precisely because they did stuff that was seen as fucking heinous and unecessary even by that day's standards.I would count myself lucky if in your shoes : if the americans had considered Japan's actions to be perfectly normal and acceptable behavior for ANY nations, how worse do you think they would have allowed themselves to behave against japanese once the slanted bastards hit Pearl Harbour ?>Nicely done, Mr Samurai>You took us with our pants down>Don't worry about it : we were planning to do to you as you did to the chinese anyway>You know, since it's normal>IndustrialRapeOfKanto.exe
>>64614601>let's breed them out of existence and cover their islands in muslimsCan you really blame the USA for the japs not breeding anymore ?As for the muslims, not sure I get your point : Japan currently has about 300.000 muslims maximum, out of 123 millions or so inhabitants.That's 0,25% and that's not even a skewed average : the prefecture with the most muslims has them at 0,5% of the local population.Even if the muslims bred like nigerians (birth rate : 3,5%) while also having none dying and while having all future migrants (which is around 375.000 per year) being muslims, it would still take over 90 years for Japanese to be fully replaced.And if Japanese just increased their birthrate to replacement level, that would still take twice as much.Most immigrants in Japan right now are Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese.
>>64607664> FDR> brownNigga was from generational Dutch old money in upstate New York; you have shown your ass as a brainrotted /pol/tard who can not be taken seriously.
>>64615231>Dutch>white
>>64618179cope
>>64614591The Allies had already seen what the Japanese government had sold to its citizens, they'd seen children given bamboo spears and told to charge machine guns, they'd witnessed mass suicides for literally no reason. Meanwhile in prep for the invasion Japan was running a morale boosting campaign of 'The Glorious Death of One Hundred Million' and teaching schoolchildren where to try and stab to maybe get a kill. During all of this thousands died every day under Japanese brutality in the lands occupied by their troops.Japanese leadership had shown and continued to show that it had no qualms about hiding behind its civilian population. The entire purpose of nuking major cities was to show beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Allies could negate that hundred million glorious deaths to a minor industrial inconvenience, and in doing so shattered the illusion that Japan could manage a draw. In short: get fucked
>>64611356>Changing the outcome of Pearl Harbor would have barely affected the course of the war.REALLY?
>>64618179>russkies>white
>>64607532It was a baited operation that USA was fully aware off. Only way USA would have reacted "better" than they did if Japan had send and official declaration of intent into largest US newspapers week before attack.
>>64618179The tulipniggers don't want you to know this, but the entire pacific theater was secretly manipulated by a shadowy cabal of Dutch fiends who purposely sabotaged the war effort through incompetence
>>64614311>hallowed outI know it's a typo but this is gold
>>64608099>Ultimately they decided to pillage some vets from the pilot schools to round out the air groupsAnd thus the fateful precedent was born
>>64614333If you squint, you can almost see it :>gilded age robber barons as the oligarchs>great depression sent a lot of people back to their family farm, which doesn't have working toilets>The New Deal is actually communismOf course you have to ignore all the bodies falling out of windows, actual trust busting, the peaceful transfer of power in 1953 and many other issues.
>>64621539>>64611546>know exact time and place enemy will attack you at the very limit of his strike range>don't use this knowledge to pull off the greatest ambush in history>instead intentionally suffer major defeat as the opener to joining the largest war in human historyAnyone who thinks the US knew that the attack was about to happen is retarded
>>64621612USA needed a bloody nose to rouse the population that was largely pro-hitler at the time.
>>64621623>largely pro-hitlerNo, they were apathetic about the war.
>>64621612I mean to be fair, the US knew that the attack on the Philippines was coming and still did nothing to stop their entire air force get destroyed on the ground, but all the conspiracies that the boot 2LT and PFC that was working the Pearl Harbor command post that day were both part of an elaborate conspiracy instead of just being two retards who didn't know what they were doing always makes me chuckle.
>>64621623You're a retarded nigger if you dont think the US wouldn't have loved to see newspaper headlines reading:>JAP SNEAK ATTACK FOILED>5,000 TREACHEROUS SLANT EYES SENT TO OCEAN FLOOR>CARRIER FLEET LOST, JAPAN OPEN TO COUNTERATTACK
>>64621638Implying the newspapers would not read>USA ILLEGALLY ATTACKS PEACEFUL JAPANESE CONVOY>HORRIBLE LOSS OF HUMAN LIFE >USA SHOULD PAY REPARATIONS TO JAPAN FOR THE ILLEGAL ATTACK
>>64607664>FDR is a brown turdie >FDR's USA was a fascist shithole culturally very much alike with Putin's Russia150% botted post, they don’t even try to hide it anymore
>>64621550>called doorman>opens the door wide open for the Japanese to invade the Dutch east Indies
>>64621651The Japanese had already sunk a US Navy ship and had killed Americans in a cowardly attack against civilians. On top of this, the American public had been receiving a steady stream of photographs and stories about dead babies and raped civilians in China. Absolutely nobody in the US thought the Japs were the good guys by 1941.
>>64621651Why are you projecting modern media values onto 1941? What could possibly make you think that sentiment existed anywhere at the time? Also what would the press even stand to gain from taking a sympathetic side with the Japs? Literally nothing, it's fucking stupid.
>>64621612Also>Anyone who thinks Qatar did the 9/11 is retard>Anyone who thinks 4chan has been infiltrated and flooded with replies from the qatari emeri forces' keyboard warriors sitting in Doha is retard
>>64621623>largery pro hitlernot even close
>>64614591Was fire bombing them any better? People act like using nukes in WWII was any significant change in how the war was fought from the air, when all it changed was the calculus on strategic bombing being from a billion planes and 5 billion tons of bombs being used to destroy a city in the process of destroying whatever military facility was there to a single plane and a single bomb.
>>64622000You forgot to mention>Anyone who thinks China nuked Japan twice just to stop Stalin to takeover Japan is retard>Anyone who thinks China sabotaged the Japanese economy in the 1980s is a retard too
>>64611546Nobody knew how important carriers would become, or not to the extent it ended up, please don't spread your thoughtless crap, not even the japs believe this shit.
>>64607726Is this real sparky or an imitation?Because the idea of him making proposals for WW2 is really funny for some reason.I really want to see Mike Sparks rube goldberg device proposals for wars across time
the us got 30 days warning from catlinas and didn't believe themthen P40's ran into themand warned themthey still did nothingfinally a wellington flew over the same place and took some flak>finally did something.>it was too latetake a guess.at the time it was the very large delay between getting cargo to peral and she had no AAand relyed the ships being in close nit to advoid getting drive bombed.>they didn't expect the same places to be carrying torpedos and bombsmaking any defence impossable>also keep in mind they where sifioning ships to europe weaking defence.they even tell you they expected subs and didn't see any topedo carriesit wasn't just bad intel it was also because the Idaho was late againso tghe entire navy was a sitting duck untill it turned upthe Iowa wasn't suppose to be aloneanother blunder by navy fags.the idaho was taking her time. and her escorts didn't take warning serious either in fact they wherre partying that nightjust before the bombingthe NGo mess was having a debate that the oil embargo was too much and they might hit peralofc they knew of the warningsbut again did nothing.note they have 18 hours to get their p40s readyinstead they just fueled them up and did nothingand didn't even bother hiding their only defenceunitto be "on ready"take it anyway you want.all i will say is they whereb totally blasay about the entire thing and thought qall they hatd to worry about was hitler.>then getting smached in the mouthnavy did their best.basically it was the navy air/army corpes that sat on its ass and let every one else get pwned.calling japnese agression a quote "nnothing burger">its a caser of the inexperinced rook commander.hence why us soldiers just call them paper pushers.totally rubbish in real life senerio.and often very slow to react.
>>64611356The key is obviously just don't do anything to bring the USA into the war. For the japs that probably means sweeping west past Ceylon and then capturing Suez and Persia. That probably KOs the UK and at that point the Australians would be all alone and probably fold also.
>>64622313>The mutts on /k/ aren't very good at banterThis isn't a banter board.I think you want >>>/bant/
>>64614294The wake island reinforcement carriers arrived in Hawaiian waters on Friday but did not request entry from Port control. Idk why not but it is really odd to not pull in so the guys can have weekend libo.
It was an inside job. Roosevelt knew he was pushing them into wanting to fight us, the commie fucker just needed an excuse to get in the war
>>64608071>they're already veterans in 1941This is sort of misleading. At least for the USN the guys with wings in 1941 were easily the best and most experienced pilots we had throughout the war. Which makes sense, they had years instead of months of flight experience. The First Class is a good book about that
The issue with the Pearl Harbor attack is that we did have advance warning, but because the top brass was retarded they did not heed those warnings. It was a failure on multiple levels, and those officers were sacked as soon as the dust settled. The procedure for sending warnings up the chain of command was subsequently overhauled to prevent a disaster like that from occurring again.
>>64622713>The procedure for sending warnings up the chain of command was subsequently overhauled to prevent a disaster like that from occurring againLucky that worked out and there were no missed warnings that embroiled the USA into wars that were of benefit to its political class.I'm half shit posting because the USA very badly needed to be in WWII and did very, very well out of it for half a century but it is a familiar story.
>>64622739>I'm half shit posting because the USA very badly needed to be in WWIINot really.>did very, very well out of it for half a century but it is a familiar story.The cold war?
>>64623017The only people who think USA shouldn't have entered the war are wannabe-nazis who are desperately searching for an alignment of stars that would let the Nazis win.I assume you're such a little nazi larper.If USA hadn't entered the war, the western front collapses and Germany both eliminates the English and secures oil routes through formerly English territories and frees up resources to face the USSR.Then, a Japan who has now consolidated control over their prosperity sphere AKA brutal colonial empire, can meet up with Germany, blockade USA on both sides and begin their joint conquest of the Americas, probably starting with Panama to cut the continents in twain.Whether they win or USA can single-handedly defeat both consolidated empires is academic, war with them is inevitable because neither will accept co-existence with free countries. At best they accept vassals with ever dwindling independence, at worst their neighbours face genocide or slavery.There's no peace with a bad faith, uncivilised, expansionist despot like Hitler, or the Nazi regime. It's just a matter of facing them when they're weaker or when they're stronger.Destroying them when they appear is prudent and in fact essential to long-term survival of western civilisation.You just want to find a scenario whereby Nazis won WWII and it requires USA to essentially commit suicide to make it plausible.Nazis lose, always.
>>64623183No I think the Nazi would have lost either way.
>>64611356>how could the japs have prevented the absolute disaster at Midway?Actually training their crews in damage control? A key difference between USN crews and IJN crews was that in the former every crewman helped with damage control while on the later that task was centered around the engineering section, which should for some reason die, the ship was condemned to sink. Otherwise, improving the safety practices of aviation fuel and ordinance handling would probably have saved if not all, at least a couple of their flattops.
>>64623214They'd still be four older carriers caught with armed aircraft in the hangar.
>>64607664I got secondhand brainrot from reading less than half of this post.
>>64614338this
>>64622674>>64607532>>64607544>>64607664People underestimate how ludicrous the Pearl attack sounded, which was why no one believed the tips.>Be Yamamoto >Assemble the most powerful naval group up to that point in history >Teleports it across 4000 miles without detection, far past the combat radius of naval ships of the era>Launch hundreds of fighters at the same time >Use devastating tactics and weapons barely known to work at the time If you were FDR and got told by an analyst that Pearl was about to be hit in a giant attack by an invisible fleet that was also the most powerful ever using weapons you didn't even believe would work, you'd probably wouldn't believe it
>>64625787It sounded a lot like Fleet Problem 13.
>>6460753210 days for the USS Enterprise and USS Lexington to never leave or ~5 days for them to turn around and get back in time to help.
>>64626025A problem with what people take from the Fleet Problems is that they were designed with alot of hand-waving "it is presumed" setup that didnt directly translate to what the situation in the real world was. The first set of problems in the 20s were based around a Pacific enemy bombing and invading the Panama Canal. How exactly they anticipated Japan would sail 9,000+ miles to launch that attack wasn't the point, it was to test combat theories.So the fact that a Fleet Problem considered the effects of a carrier attack on Pearl Harbor doesnt necessarily translate to "Japan can launch a six carrier attack without warning"
>>64614591>people working in a weapons factory have no idea their nation is at warAre you a special kind of stupid or something?
>>64625787>Use devastating tactics and weapons barely known to work at the timeIt says something about how much of a hail Mary this was that Japan still thought of Battleships as the primary fleet arm that would take center stage in a grand decisive duel of guns. Pearl Harbor was to them an action to weaken the US battleline ahead of the real battle. The idea that the "more valuable" carriers "suspiciously happened to be" out of port is applying modern values to the situation, the battleships were Japan's primary target. Also people try and imply that the carriers were quickly spirited away but one was being repaired on the mainland while the other two were ferrying aircraft to American island bases that were closer to Japan specifically because of the heightened tensions.>People underestimate how ludicrous the Pearl attack sounded, which was why no one believed the tips.In addition to not expecting an air raid most people believed that if an attack was to happen it would be in the Philippians. A US Colony close to Japan that was being militarized against a possible Japanese attack. If anything attacking Pearl would be more damaging for Japan, many people in the US wondered why the US still had colonies, getting America into total war mode due to an attack on those islands might have fallen flat. America might have been willing to make peace in exchange for the surrendered army stationed there.Hell, the whole point of the attack on Pearl was to prevent the US interfering with the attack on the Philippians and the whole point of the attack on the Philippians was to prevent the US from having a base to interdict shipping between the US and the Dutch East Indies which was their primary target. So the whole plan was based around, "we want the Dutch's far east oil to replace the oil we bought from Western powers but there is a chance the US might intervene so we should attack them first so they fuck off." Easy to see why the raid on Pearl seemed ludicrous.
>>64611356>how could the japs have prevented the absolute disaster at Midway?Change their doctrine so all their carriers are not nicely parked next to each other for dive bombers to kill.
>>64626304>considered the effects of a carrier attackMore like considered the effects of sneaking in the carriers and launching a surprise attack using aircraft on a Sunday morning. No its not 1:1, for several reasons. However saying fleet oilers were arcane technology revolutionary is different than saying it was extremely aggressive. Modifying air dropped torpedoes for shallow water being extremely clever not a new super weapon.
>>64607532I'm pretty sure we had advanced warning and let it happen.
>>64630367>let it happenAs in we knew an attack was going to happen eventually or knew the attack was specifically going to happen at Pearl at the exact time of Dec 7th? Do you have proof?
>>64630367Why?
>>64630830Did the Japanese actually shoot footage of the attack?
>>64633030>Did the Japanese actually shoot footage of the attack?Seemingly.
>>64621651>peaceful convoy>comprised of warships thousands of miles away from their warHmmmmmmmm
