How effective were these things? Obsidian is said to be extremely sharp and multiple edges instead of one straight blade might be extremely painful.
>>64634465>MacuahutitlCouldn't they have used an easier name to pronounce or remember?
>>64634465The problem is that Mesoamerican combat was highly ritualized. The goal was not to kill the opponent, but to stun and maim him to provide captives for sacrifice. You are basically looking at an alien civilization. They did not fight to kill the opponent.For the goal they were designed for, they were highly effective.
>>64634465They were perfectly fine for native-on-native warfare. Problems arose when they encountered the Spaniards because obsidian (aka volcanic glass) had a tendency to shatter against steel breastplates.
>>64634477All of that is a common explanation that everyone says, but it's not based on anything the Aztecs said, but just some later Europeans trying to explain everything. It was an expansionist empire, and no one ever gimps their own armed forces or their equipment for "rituals". It's more likely their weapons were just better at maiming than killing, and they collected prisoners for sacrifice later.
>>64634571>It was an expansionist empireAh but that's the thing. It wasn't an Empire at all. It was a confederation of three city-states (Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Tlacopan) and many tributaries. The Aztecs did not in fact conquer the Tlaxcalans, they subjugated them. A different thing.They never occupied Tlaxcala despite having the means to do so. Instead, they would collect tribute from the Tlaxcalans, and leave them strong enough for waging the periodic ritual war on them, so yeah these obsidian swords were pretty much designed for that. You don't see them on the actual expansionist empires. The Incas used lances, archers and slingers, and even bronze axes. But the Incas were true expansionist empire, who annexed and assimilated the peoples they conquered. They kidnapped the elites of their rivals, raised their children to be Incas, and sent them back to rule as part of a united polity.But in Mesoamerica the prevalence of obsidian swords increased as the warfare became more and more focused around captives.
>>64634465They're aighthttps://youtu.be/12GP6ktNIk0?t=9m19s
>>64634571>no one ever gimps their own armed forces or their equipment for "rituals".Come on now, we see russians doing that all the time.
>>64634495>muh steel IIRC most battles the Spanish underwent they had something like 30:1 native allies to Spaniards. And most Spanish didn't have steel armor, nor a horse, nor a gun.
>i saw a video and now im making a thread on /k/!
>>64634639I was hoping some one would post this. This guys stuff is great. You can tell he has a real passion for history and isn't just trying to get Youtube bucks. Macuahuitl seems pretty fragile but I suspect his was not build to the same standards and the old ones. There's also some debate on the shape and size of the obsidian pieces.
>>64634465>be extremely painfulYou're a big guy
>>64634748Did someone say big guy?
>>646347534u
>>64634571Ritualistic warfare was not confined to Precolumbian America
>>64634788Nobody cared who I was until I put on the skin table
Well, they certainly work (for a while at least), and you can find (or perhaps did find) some youtube videos showing this. The basic idea of setting stone shards into a wooden weapon to make for a larger edge is also something we see in a number of places, pic shows stone age arrow- or spearheads from Sweden, and a display in the National Museum in Tokyo talk of similar things being done in palaeolithic China. I doubt the idea would be so widespread if it wasn't a decent one.On the other hand, don''t expect miracles out of these things. Obsidian in particular can have a horrendously sharp edge microscopically, but to cause wounds that aren't likewise microscopic you need to consider the macroscopic side of things as well. If we look to Diaz el Castillo's account of his time as one of Cortez' men we find that he mentions both Aztecs making use of captured European swords, and the conquistadors making use of local armour (most having none from back home), but nothing about conquistadors making use of local weapons. And while the idea of the stone-edged wooden blade had global reach once upon a time, it also appears to have gone out of use whenever metal became cheap enough for everyday items in the region. As such weapons like the macahuitl and tepoztopilli were likely used not because they were superior to steel, bronze, iron or even copper, but because it's the best they could do with the materials they had readily available.
>>64634639>literally disintegrates on first use>aight
>>64634639dude's out there making the safety squints
>>64634465You wouldn't want to get hit by one and it's better than a plain wooden club, but that's about it. They were also clearly massively inferior to steel swords. Memoirs say that Aztec warriors were virtually helpless against what must had seemed like lightning-quick attacks of unparalleled deadliness.
>>64634647>>64634810haha>captcha:GAYUM
>>64634465Obsidian doesn't have multiple edges itself but it's slightly more durable than regular glass due to trace elements in it which affect its structure marginally and can be fractured more cleanly when shaping, but the main reason as to why it's seen to be used more is primarily due to the high silica content in it. The uniform fracturing in general allows it to slowly be chipped away into an extremely small fine edge which is what gives it the sharpness and as to why it's sometimes used in surgical scalpels, though the use of it for scalpels is a lot more uncommon in general.It's volcanic glass, outside of the specific factors that I mentioned it's not really any different than regular glass which is why you see its use in weapons and certain other contexts. The multiple edges thing isn't true for obsidian itself but the macuahutitl itself does have numerous chunks of obsidian as you can see which do have multiple edges due to there being individual chunks; it'd be like making a giant serrated club where each serration is the size of a small rock; on top of that if it breaks in someone which because obsidian is glass it definitely would, then that'd hurt even more. >>64634746The obsidian is fragile; but if it breaks you just replace it. Flint-knapping isn't something that takes forever and people back then would've done it more frequently than people do today.
They probably had a special martial art for it with a gentle slicing motion to protect the blade, as well as aiming for soft areas, seems like a really good weapon to me though
>>64634596Fuck Tlaxcala; had to kill those guys in Age of Empires 2
>>64636140It wasn't meant to be used for killing people, just injuring them in a non lethal way. You have to look at it from an anthropological perspective and understand that mesoamerican culture and theologies back then revolved around taking people captive either for bartering or to use as sacrifices. It's brutal but true. The blade wasn't necessary to protect and if it fractured it didn't matter because all of these tribes were near areas where you could easily get massive amounts of obsidian whilst also having numerous people on hand that could knap them into a blade so that you could replace a broken one. They didn't run around with steel forges and giant metal swords, weight and adaptability was a very important thing in their tribal nations. You can go and bring back a fuckton of obsidian for knapping from a volcano or area of harvesting but bringing back a fuckton of ore for metallurgy is way more arduous and time consuming.It was just more efficient for tribes like that and it still has use in nomadic and non-nomadic tribes today that don't have access to metal or find it cumbersome. A lot of people who are weapon enthusiasts tend to view these from a modern perspective which is why there's a shitload of confusion surrounding them but if you study anthropology, geology and material science then it makes way more sense.
>>64634475Mfw it almost sounds like a name for "caveman club" in my language.Kek.
>>64634753The Vast Expansion Of Flesh.I still remember the sick realization something was wrong here
>>64636184It's very lethal though
>>64634477They ate the sacrifices.Without refrigeration, long pork needs to be alive not to spoil.
>>64634946>he needs more than one swing to end a fightskill issueblade placement is the only thing that matters
>>64634465They're pretty effective and great for training attack and strength too. I prefer a rapier so I can use my Avernic defended though
>>64636293Most stuff is lethal in general, but this is better for incapacitating someone without killing them because you're not going to be damaging internal organs by stabbing into them or shooting them with an arrow. Less risk of taking a fuckton of time clubbing someone with a blunt weapon because you have the risk of knocking them in the head and killing them or brain damaging them, or them being able to retaliate in a way that isn't beneficial to fighting. Without a doubt this is lethal but the use of it wasn't designed for killing people unless necessary, they weren't the easiest things to use though... but when you see most people using bladed weapons in modern times it's not really too hard to believe since most people don't ever actually use them outside of stabbing since people fuckin suck at using them. The only people that do tend to know how to use them are people that train historical arts and those people tend to never be actually using them in actual combat meant to be lethal. Traditional blade use is a dying art that's being kept alive by people that train it based upon tradition and respect rather than actually using it against people. Which you know it's cool to see it being kept alive but you never get any good examples seeing actual combat because of it.
>>64636278It's even in 38 super.
>>64634465They used obsidian because their metal working abilities were lacking and they didn't have access to better minerals that would conchoidally fracture. You don't pick obsidian because it's your best option, you pick it because it's your only option. Every society that had access to obsidian and something better (chert, quartz, etc.) used the better option preferentially...because it was better.>t. fucked around with knapping for a bit
>>64634465>15 hours and no one's posted itThis board has fallen. This is an actual illustration of a Macahuitl, the last real one that was destroyed in a fire at the Madrid armory. The "crude club with chunks of raw obsidian" that's peddled by popular media isn't a real thing, it's based on tards speculating what a tool used by people they see as complete primitive cavemen would use based on a loose description.
>>64634465so effective they thought cortes with a few hundred spaniards were angry gods sent to punish them
>>64634465Replicas have been made and tested, and the results are that it kills real good actually but is also very brittle (as the cutting edge is literally made of glass). It is significantly sharper than any steel sword you can create due to the properties of volcanic glass.
>>64634900>not because they were superior to steel, bronze, iron or even copperWait wait wait.Someone unironically thinks that clubs with glass in them beat metals? Seriously? How fucking retarded are people? It likely shatters on contact with bone, pretty trash tier as far as weapons go.
>>64637322>>64634900No one fucking thinks it's BETTER than steel. It's SHARPER than steel. Those two words are not synonyms.
>>64634475Ma-kwa-wilth
Considering that 300 spanish sailors conquered the whole continent, not so effective. Specially if you read that the Conquistadores didn't even wear plate armor all time because it was too hot to we wearing it 24/7
>>64634465If you're limited to stone-age technology then it's about as close to perfect as you can get.
>>64634753Almost as great as the one image on wikipedia where it shows the gun and someone’s balls in the pic. A quick look shows it was the Bergmann-Bayard pistol, and it’s been removed as of 30 September 2023. I have a screenshot somewhere on an older drive I think.
>>64637384Mace
>>64636490>Great Jaguar the enemy army assembles!>fear not turqoise turtle we have exactly 1 Macuahutitl for each of their soldiers!>Great Jaguar I uh... accidently dropped mine and the blade broke>I see, sound the vuvuzela of surrender
>>64634465I wager designs like those have slapped more asses than cut them in reality.
>>64634465For cutting people and fighting other club weilding natives? VeryIn combat against a sword?Not at all.
>>64634465Shit. It's a wooden club with volcanic glass glued onto it with semen. It breaks when you hit anything with it. No wonder those latinxes got btfo'd and are still buck broken about SPANISH BVLLS running a train on their women while they sit back and watch.
>>64634475they make the names by throwing clay dishes and wooden utensils down the pyramid stairs.
>>64639055LMAO. The names are the sound their women make when they are taking BWC down their throats.
>>64634596>It wasn't an Empire at all. It was a confederation of three city-states (Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Tlacopan) and many tributariesBullshit. They were a Tenochca empire pure and simple, the "triple alliance" was just words, power remained with Tenochtitlan over the others
>>64639076Based Spainard throat invaders.
>>64634659Eh sorta wrong, the Spanish raised huge native armies b/c the Aztecs were so fuckin horrible. It's more like Cortez and his og army were the officers/commanders of an equally matched and/or (more likely) overmatched army cause they rode around like:>"hey! You like these fuckers?!"-to all of the enslaved subjects of the Aztec empire, and these brutalized and enslaved tribes were like:>NO!>wanna join us and kill 'em all?>YES!The history after that is obv not so clean, but if the Aztecs had managed and provided for their colonies, or integrated/assimilated their subjects in a fairer or more effective way (American-style btw/ftw), they may have stood a better chance..
>>64634659>>64639246My bad..Doublepost cause I apparently can't read..Think we're on the same page
>>64634900Rel, the saltwater-soaked cotton armor was apparently so OP that the Spanish swapped it out for the original steel after said plate armor was defeated by atlatls.That could certainly be apocryphal, but even so, apparently shit twerked
>>64637512>Retard
>>64639076>>64639142The Spanish were only very recently made white to support our American racial politics..Not saying it's right or wrong (I actually don't give a fuck), but know your history for fuckin sake.
>>64634465I do wooden club swinging exercises and sometimes I think about how much more I'd focus on my form if any misaligned swing or bad form would slice me with sharpened obsidian on my naked back.anyway, don't ever try to use a large wooden club as a weapon, caveman style. They truly are sufficiently unwieldy that by the time you finish a swing, the other guy has actually had time to get behind you and do a full dark souls backstab animation.
>>64639350Id imagine most wooden clubs are on the smaller/lighter end for that reason.
>>64634465https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12GP6ktNIk0
>>64634477They lost an abortive expansion into Texas to a bunch of tribals who didn't give a fuck about the Sun's hunger for hearts or weird sodomy rituals and just chucked spears at them.People forget that a few hundred men who weren't even soldiers not only repeatedly defeated "armies" of thousands of squatguats but crushed them sometimes with no recorded casualties. And this was before said redmen sided with them against their habitual enemies in the triple alliance. They didn't engage in ranked fighting and had no way to deal with the Terrico. And they were physically small, very small, which might have been a contributing factor to the endemic cannibalism which occurred from the top of the city state elite to bottom of the tribals they preyed upon. Their agriculture was shit and seems to have been poor in useable protein, thus cannibalism became rampant. Even in European antiquity it was the bones and guts which were used in sacrifice and augury while the priests and followers consumed the good shit. Hence why cultures which burned the whole of the offering often bragged about being rich enough to do so.Is a neolithic or early chalcolithic weapon, similar short swords were made in Europe with chert. It' all right but likely became ineffective quickly. Any lateral force could snap or loosen the teeth. That said I assume that they simply pre-made teeth and may have even switched out to "poorly" made teeth when going on campaign. If you didn't care about looks you could quickly bag out very sharp teeth which worked well enough and replace them if needed.Also they got what they deserved for being weak.
>>64634659In the early battles the Spainish defeated several "republics" as they defined them, in one case in a 10k v 500 battle. These people then became their allies once they realized how effective they were. The local axillaries were likely most useful for logistical support, allowing the Conquistadors to advance very quickly and always be well supplied in food and water. It's funny that they've basically forbade the recitation of the campaigns on youtube even uploads of college lectures for political reasons. All first hand accounts are suspect but there was a reason why the Aztec system fell so quickly . The Inca could partially resist and had actual formations after a fashion. They were still crushed but it required real effort, the Aztecs' entire system was extremely fragile to any outside force since it was held balance by lesser towns raiding tribals for captives which they would present as tribute to the city states. And the tribes would raid one another to pay off the towns with captives. And due to the spread of the elite culture sacrifice seems to have been endemic even in the tribal societies. It was human sacrifice and cannibalism all the way done.
>>64639284There is no actual evidence of that, they also already knew what gambesons were and likely had them under their breastplates. There are similar stories about the Spanish being reluctant to cross rope bridges, and this is attributed to them under understanding what a tension bridge is despite having crossed the sea on ships with fucking rigging identical in function and form to a rope bridge. More likely they were warry about the condition of a fucking rope in a wet environment as they lugged small cannon across it. However given the relative poverty of the invading force and the fact that shit breaks on campaign I can see anybody taking whatever they can get, because that's always how it works.Ironically almost all narratives pushed about colonial expansion are anti-colonial due to the biases held by academics for at least a century at this point. And a century prior to that the narratives were pro-yourcolonialism and anti-everybodyelsescolonialism. The entire narrative around the Belgian Congo for example was constructed by the Belgian parliament who wanted it out of King's hands and into that of the government, or the British because they wanted it. As for my own biases, I would have preferred to march on the Aztecs with 30,000 hardened Landsknechts, kill everyone in Mexico, metal down all their metal, and dip their skulls in it for convenience of carrying obviously and no other reason.
>>64639284>>64639545Atl atlas aren't doing shit to defeat plate armor. Lances, with the mass of an armored horse and rider behind it, couldn't reliably defeat plate curiasses at this point. If people were picking up gambeson from the locals it was because:>Rodelleros didn't reliably have armor to begin with>Gambesons are perishable. They get so fucking gross you'll stop wearing them, they tear so badly it isn't worth fixing them, and they can literally get stiff with blood and sweat >Plate cannot breathe. Sweat will not evaporate under it, you get hot fast, and stay hot. If you opposition are stupid cavemen with sharp clubs, you may very well elect to not wear your breastplate unless you're going into a pitched battle >Firsthand accounts suggest the Aztecs were.... not very skilled. Armor is less important if you're confident the other guy can't hit you
>>64634465>can't pierce steel>outranged by gunkek
>>64634753>Natural Canvas Backgroundkek
>>64634900>If we look to Diaz el Castillo's account of his time as one of Cortez' men we find that he mentions both Aztecs making use of captured European swords, and the conquistadors making use of local armour (most having none from back home), but nothing about conquistadors making use of local weaponsI seem to recall him mentioning a horse getting it's head cut off at one point, perhaps by a Tlaxcalan
>>64634465I saw a video about these recently.The gap between the obsidian pieces is supposed to be a lot smaller its a sword not a sharp club
>>64641826The guy talked how these things could kill horses very effectively.It didnt stand a chance against steel armor.Obsidian being a prittle as it is
>>64638022>If you're limited to stone-age technology then it's about as close to perfect as you can get.Most of their technology was on a bronze age level. Except for metallurgy, but even that was a matter of time, considering that the Inca had developed bronze.And I wouldn't discount spears and bows. Or maces.
It's an impressive example of ingenuity from the era of wood and stone, but I'm concerned about the way the blade pieces are fixed.
>>64634465will break on hitting bone after the first strikeI will not elaborate further
>>64641916There's a problem with thinking technology in terms of ages like an AOE tech tree. The Mesoamericans were pretty advanced when it came to agriculture, astronomy, and sanitation. Arguably higher than Europe. Incan architecture was also interesting, it was anti-seismic, which is a world first.But yeah on most other aspects they were quite primitive compared to Europeans, did not have immunity to disease, and lacked iron, steel, horses, etc. And the Aztecs were hated by everyone around them.So they got BTFO by 300 alien invaders.
>>64642045They were glued in and intended to pop out if it hits something hard enough.
>>64642130They had no writing. They thought that the world is flat. Ahead of Europe in astronomy? Nigger, please.
>>64642462>They had no writing.Mayans had a full writing system including the zero numeral.Aztecs used pictrographs.And the Incas used the most alien system of all which were khipus (knotted strings) used to record statistics, census results, and basically number data.Ahead of Europe in astronomy? Nah, all three civilizations knew the year had 365 days, they had well-developed calendars and could predict eclipses, etc.They did very well in astronomy.
Little known fact the Conquistadors lost their steel-shod pikes when retreating from Tenochtitlan when the entire population rioted. They later made their own using bronze/brass they made themselves and armed a militia of local injuns with them. That as the army which finally achieved total victory. So they had some copper and tin deposits, they just didn't figure out how to use them.
>>64642130>agricultureInca and Maya were alright, the Aztec agriculture was shit because they chose their staples poorly.
>>64634596They had both forms of warfare, they wages traditional wars of conquest and "flower wars" intended for the purpose of religious sacrifice. They had already conquered the area surrounding the Tlaxcalans and it provided an easy source of captives for sacrificing so they didn't bother lose a ton of warriors to finish crushing the Tlaxcalan enclave simply because there wasn't much upside but there was a lot of downside
>>64634465>be extremely painful.You’re a big guy
>>64642805365 days calendar and predicting eclipses are ancient, Euros were well ahead of that by 1492. Ancient Greeks knew about the world being round, and even measured it's circumference. Mesoamericans were thousands of years behind.
>>64644673>even measured it's circumference.Lost knowledge, Columbus thought he could sail straight to India.
>>64644812Columbus underestimated the circumference, which had been calculated repeatedly using different methods to within 500m as far back as 100AD. He just happened to crash into a new continent where he thought China would be. That said is backers mostly just wondered if there was virginal land somewhere which could be used as a stopover for circumnavigation. They knew about islands in the Atlantic for example.
>>64640151>Sparke recorded that ‘they are so good archers that the Spaniards for fear thereof arm themselves and their horses with quilted canvas of two inches thick, and leave no place of their body open to their enemies, saving their eyes, which they may not hide, and yet oftentimes are they hit in that so small a scantling.’(this is vs Caribs)>Thevet reported that their arrows were ‘so strong that they will pierce a good mail corselet’, while a Portuguese eye-witness wrotein 1601 that Tupí arrows could go through ‘quilted breastplates or curates’.This V. Tupi>As early as his coastal voyage between Brazil and Venezuela in 1499–1500, Amerigo Vespucci noted that the only reason the Indians they encountered each time they landed had dared to attack them was because ‘they did not know what kind of a weapon the sword was, or how it cuts.’ Used as a thrusting weapon it was unbeatable — a straight-armed lunge could pierce right through Indian shields and cotton armour whilst the swordsman himself remained beyond the reach of the enemy’s slashing weapons. Time and again Díaz remarks how the Indiansdrew off ‘when they had pretty well experienced the sharpness of our swords’, and the Spaniards soon learnt the advantage of closing with the enemy rather than standing off, since the Indians ‘had the advantage of their missile weapons when at a little distance’.These from Ian Heaths Armies of the Sixteenth Century, armies of Aztecs/Inca/Conquistadors.
>>64644812Not lost, Columbus was a crank.
>>64644830Too lazy to copy and paste the full passages, but the author contends the cavalry was the most important arm relative to the steel and gunpowder, which:The effect of the Spaniards’ other principal militaryintroduction to the New World — gunpowder firearms —was surprisingly small. Even though Cortés wasaccompanied by 14 artillery pieces in his initial advance toTenochtitlan in 1519, and by 15 more when he returned in1521, they seem not to have excited any undue panicamong the Indians on the few occasions that we know theywere used, despite an observation by one conquistador thatthe massed Indian formations presented them with an idealtarget. Probably whatever advantage they might haveimparted was negated by the speed, mobility, and verynumbers of the Indians facing them. Handguns weresimilarly inconsequential compared to the considerablefirepower of Indian archers, slingers, and javelinmen,though they did have the advantage of greater range. Inaddition they were present in only very small numbersthroughout the first half of the century (just 13 of Cortés’infantry in 1519 were arquebusiers, as were only four ofthe defenders of Cuzco in 1536–37), so that during muchof the initial Conquest period crossbows were present in atleast equal and often superior numbers. Both weapons hadthe disadvantage of being slow to reload, which placedthem at a severe disadvantage when confronted by anenemy who almost invariably outnumbered them. It was inan attempt to minimise this deficiency that, when fightingthe Tlaxcaltecs in 1519, Cortés is recorded to have orderedthat his arquebusiers and crossbowmen should firealternately so that some of them always had their weaponsloaded and ready. With me forgetting to copy for the vespucci remark that "The most effective Spanish infantry arm was the sword..." then that passage
>>64644838Tfw my warham 3 campaign is Crashing to desktop after a big battle. sadge.
Come on guys.9 parts copper, one part tin. It's not that hard.
Are these really any better than hammers or plain clubs?The fact that you have to set the shards into something means you have a more complicated device, and thus more points of failure.Why not just use wooden spears?
>>64644830>Quilted>MailAka not plate. But yeah, people wildly overestimate the importance of guns- cortez had very few, and it was the rodelleros who broke the Aztecs in the field. Not surprising, even generous estimates and reconstruction put the macahuitil at 3-4 times the weight of a side sword. That's a disgustingly unwieldy weapon that wouldn't be able to defend at all, and wouldn't really be able to feint or otherwise draw out a man behind a shield. And fighting people who will lunge at you when you've never had to deal with it is comical - people are INCREDIBLY bad at defending against thrusts without training, and they're also the single best way to get around a shield. Perfect storm, really, one it comes to standing toe to toe, the Aztecs were in for lopsided casualties even if the Spanish were completely passive foe.
>>64645036I read about Vasco Nunez de Balboa who was ahead of his time in swordfighting as he was an early fencer and he stood over 6 feet tall.No native could ever possibly hope to land a blow on him unless they tried to tackle him with a knife.Which they tried but he was also a wrestler and still twice their size.So imagine that. Not only could they not deal with lunging thrusts but now you present only half of your body in fencing stance, at arms length, at the point of a sword. And you're a full foot taller than the enemy.
>>64644833Imagine the euphoria he felt for a short while though. Everyone back home telling him he was wrong and completely retarded, only to find exactly what he thought he was looking for.Like an early history flat earther kayaking down a foggy river thinking he finally found the edge of the world before sailing himself straight over niagra falls.
>>64634465>ctrl+f "for you", "4u", "uuuu">1 resultI'm disappointed in you guys
>>64636184>>64639439We wuz aztecs and shieettthttps://www.science.org/content/article/headless-bodies-hint-why-europe-s-first-farmers-vanished
>>64645121sorry that was meI just needed some skulls for something
>>64645075There are two Big guys in the thread
>>64644972>tinZinc and arsenic are also options.
>>64634465They were effective just had very limited durability. Spanish writers describe a horse being decapitated by one for example. Some guy made a couple and tested them on a large piece of pork, it sliced through the flesh but shattered on bone.
>>64644972They had metal weapons but obsidian basically allowed them to max out stoje weapons and because they didnt have to fight people with better metalworking like in the old world until it was too late to adapt they never really worked on smithing.
>>64634465They didn't look like that. This is like posting a replica of a pilgrim gun and questioning the effectiveness of modern fire arms.>>64637276Came here to post this. The Macuahuitl is quite possibly the finest stone weapon ever produced. My understanding is that it was mainly use as a wooden club that could also take a persons limb off with a change in grip. It's pretty clear that they wouldn't have been effective against steel plate; but the rank and file Spaniards wouldn't have worn full plate and the Spanish army in the Spanish-Aztec wars was majority Injun anyways.
>>64645748These are actually dogshit illustrations.
Mesoanon from /his/, /v/, etc hereI'll try to reply to stuff in here sometime in the next few days, feel free to post your questions in advance
>>64634465You could make a sick guitar with that as the machine head
>>64634477European knightly combat was similar. Not kill but stun and beat your opponent so you can ransom them
>>64646011How so?
>>64647358How accurate is this guys work? Its fetish adjacent stuff (I know, I'm sorry) but he's generally pretty good on his antiquity illustrations, so I'd like to know how far off he is on his mesoamerican stuff. https://www.furaffinity.net/view/58559171/https://www.furaffinity.net/view/59170733/https://www.furaffinity.net/view/56342973/
>>64636184>It wasn't meant to be used for killing people, just injuring them in a non lethal way.>You have to look at it from an anthropological perspective and understand that mesoamerican culture and theologies back then revolved around taking people captive either for bartering or to use as sacrifices.Then you'd use a net, a lasso or a club. Using a sharp blade that will cut and bleed out your opponent, or give them a cut that will get infected, or shatter and push glass shards into your opponent's body that will also risk killing them is a very bad tool for the job.
>>64642901The Aztecs and other Mesoamericans conducted enough cannibalistic raids into what's now the Southwest US that there is plentiful archeological evidence.>raid village>set up pot>eat a couple captives>the rest of the villagers watch from the hills
>>64647358>>64647867mesoanon, this guy's question is my question too. An obsidian bladed club has amazing cutting power though it degrades with use. If a 10 year old hit me with this it would make my arteries spray out blood like a Kurosawa film. But if you're trying to take captives alive in a flower war what do you actually use?
>>64647358Why are you latinxes so violent and smelly. Your farts are like a portable nuclear holocaust.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNV0Hp5vkdM
>>64641826>>64641831Did "the guy" talk about how that couldn't be possible as there were no horses in mesoamerica at the time... I can understand though, for slaughtering animals
>>64648092I'm not him, but throughout history the best way to get captives is to first beat the enemy. So driving an obsidian flake into someone's throat does help you get captives if it induces his friends to break their formation and/or rout. Much easier to capture the enemy when they're alone or running rather than when they're actively trying cut your chest open with their own macuahuitl as part of an army.
>>64647368The blades are supposed to be flat single shards almost flush with eachother, forming a straight edge. See picrel and >>64637276 from some of the last original pieces to exist.The common image of a macuahutitl comes from people who heard about them but never saw one assuming they must be like clubs spiked with knapped rocks similar to native american arrowheads.
>>64637276>>64648584Another poor but surviving example, see the flat razer-like rocks to the side.A skilled worker can break off shards like that from a larger rock relatively quickly. There would have been a small industry making shitloads of those little shards from abundant obsidian.
>>64647358Can I get an accuracy check on this image?
>>64648181They were horses brought from conquistadors, some of which claimed to see horses split open by a single slash.The Anonymous Conqueror, 1556>They have swords of this kind – of wood made like a two-handed sword, but with the hilt not so long; about three fingers in breadth. The edges are grooved, and in the grooves they insert stone knives, that cut like a Toledo blade. I saw one day an Indian fighting with a mounted man, and the Indian gave the horse of his antagonist such a blow in the breast that he opened it to the entrails, and it fell dead on the spot. And the same day I saw another Indian give another horse a blow in the neck, that stretched it dead at his feet.Short Account of the Conquest of New Spain, 1559-1571>They used ... cudgels and swords and a great many bows and arrows ... One Indian at a single stroke cut open the whole neck of Cristóbal de Olid's horse, killing the horse. The Indian on the other side slashed at the second horseman and the blow cut through the horse's pastern, whereupon this horse also fell dead.
Even savages understood and used the centrifugal force in axes and spear throwing implements, so why do these weapons have blades that are close to the handle, making them unwieldy when swung?
>>64648673because it's a semidisposable wooden sword and not an axe
>>64648584It doesn't help that people are taking depictions like the Florentine codex as 100% visually accurate when it's illustrated by the kind of people who are only able to draw fish like this.
>>64644828>underestimatedHe straight up lied otherwise nobody would support expedition needed to sail 11000 miles to China and back.
>>64639318>The Spanish were only very recently made whiteMeet some Spainards and look at the Mexicans. Fuck history, learn genetics for fucks sake.
>>64637276I can do you one better. This is the only macuihuitl ever to be photographed. It was in a spanish museum but they didnt know wtf it was and falsely guessed it was a samurai weapon, hence the armor. it was later destroyed in a fire
They were extremely effective, multiple Spanish and native eyewitnesses confirm that one decapitated a fucking horse. They did have issues with durability but its really impossible to say to what extent. While we can remake them today and copy traditional materials for them, they were the product of master craftsmen working on several thousands of years of training and tradition, we really cant replicate the skill or techniques put into them. They were also much better constructed than most pop culture reconstructions show, they were less like a saw and more like a blade, in fact Spaniards pretty much universally described them as swords.Also this stuff about "Aztecs fought to maim not kill" isn't EXACTLY true, I guess for minor raids on villages and shit. Taking captives was very honorable and desired, since it was a great way for both nobles and common soldiers to gain wealth fame and status, but you would NOT be able to do that in an actual battle, the idea that they could comes from major historical misconceptions that these battles were simple tribal affairs with a couple dozen or hundred people, not the thousands or tens of thousands of organized soldiers in formation they had in reality. They were basically like medieval battles but without advanced metalworking, and battles almost universally started with a giant barrage of arrows and javelins, not exactly nonlethal. The captive taking happened during the routs, just like it did everywhere, just on a larger scale.
>>64647824Not that anon but Mossacannibalis is the superior weird fetish artist with an unexpected obsession and talent for pre hispanic mesoamerican fashion
>>64650428Christ, what a bunch of faggots. That's a toddler and two soiboys in onesies.
>>64650455He mostly does tranny shit, with women dressed like men.
>>64650428>several thousands of years of training and traditionAssumption. It was more than likely a fairly recent invention. Perhaps 1 or 2 centuries old. There is nonrecord or example of one making it north of Sonora.
>>64650455>Mossacannibalis is the superior weird fetish artist with an unexpected obsession and talent for pre hispanic mesoamerican fashionAnd an eye for fake, stylized genetics.
>>64650489The original furfags. Cortez did nothing wrong.
>>64650495If you see hot warrior tomboys fighting each other and tearing each others clothes and think of fucking trannies you are an unbelievable faggot
>>64650513>Perhaps 1 or 2 centuries oldFirst of all this is blatantly incorrect, we can trace the macuahuitl back to 250AD at least, second of all even if it was recent it would still be the product of people who had been making highly sophisticated practical obsidian weapons at scale as a full time job for thousands of years, thats not something that exists anymore
>>64650733Why do you simp for blood cultist heathens?
>>64650759Go fuck yourself you dishonest, soulless faggot. Being truthful and honest about historical facts isn't "simping" is being a just and productive human being, if you want a culture that lies about history to push agendas go move to a shithole like China or India. They were monstrous torturers but that doesn't mean we have to lie about them to make them look worse than they were. History is not about taking sides its about finding the truth.
>>64641778He does mention that a horse got beheaded during a battle, but gives no details whatsoever about how. So it may have died of other injuries and then been butchered for the trophy behind Aztec lines, rather than outright beheaded in combat.
>>64650719Why do you submissive tranny faggots always project?
>>64650822Repulsive that you would say something so easily proven incorrect with such confidence. Typical tripfag>"They used ... cudgels and swords and a great many bows and arrows ... One Indian at a single stroke cut open the whole neck of Cristóbal de Olid's horse, killing the horse. The Indian on the other side slashed at the second horseman and the blow cut through the horse's pastern, whereupon this horse also fell dead. As soon as this sentry gave the alarm, they all ran out with their weapons to cut us off, following us with great fury, shooting arrows, spears and stones, and wounding us with their swords. Here many Spaniards fell, some dead and some wounded, and others without any injury who fainted away from fright.">"Pedro de Morón was a very good horseman, and as he charged with three other horsemen into the ranks of the enemy the Indians seized hold of his lance and he was not able to drag it away, and others gave him cuts with their broadswords, and wounded him badly, and then they slashed at the mare, and cut his head off at the neck and he fell dead.">>64650829>guy who looks at attractive women and immediately thinks of trannies accusing other people of projecting
>>64648624100% accurate>t. Cuauhtémoc, Eagle Warrior of Tenochtitlan
they were not effective weapons for the 1500sthey were good enough for clubbing seals but completely uncompetitive
>>64639439they probably got brain sponge disease from eating same species like what always happens so they were retardedexplains current day mexico
>>64647358>>64647358>>64647358Still running behind on stuff sadly but I intend to reply to stuff when i can>>64647824OHS688 is perhaps the most singularly knowledgeable person on Mesoamerican fashion and ornamentation, alongside Zotz/Daniel Parada and researchers like Justyna Olko. I have not given all of his furry/anthro artwork a close look, in some cases maybe he takes extra liberties with those, but all of the ones of that nature I have seen still stick to accurate costuming and architecture, and his educational collages and infographs like pic related are amazing resources. >>64650455Mossa's art is good but he occasionally makes a few errors here and there. Still great stuff, but not "world class in knowledge" on the topic like OHS>>64648170I'm not Hispanic or indigenous>>64648092>>64647867I'll reply to this with my Macuahuitl dump>>64648624>>64652561Already broke it down here https://arch.b4k.dev/v/thread/726696851/#726701809
>>64634465The aht lat (atlatl) interests me more than their melee weapons. Just like longbows they would not pierce a well-made cuirass, but they are recorded as being dangerous and doing damage while used by the Aztecs.Unlike a bow you could use one with a shield, I wonder if they had squires to carry extra ammunition for them, if if it was more like the plumbata where the frontliners threw a couple of shots and then charged into melee.
>>64650852>One Indian at a single stroke cut open the whole neck of Cristóbal de Olid's horseThat sounds more like they split open the horse's neck/throat. Would kill it for sure, but not decapitate it.
So...Where did eagle warriors find all these green and blue lions to wear?
>>64634477So you're saying that this is a weapon of terror, designed to intimidate the enemy?
Its a stick with glass glued to it, what do YOU think? precolumbian history is filled with cope and seethe if you rely on "experts" you are unironically getting less informationt. latinx who knows other latinx and gringo latinx lovers too well to trust
>>64634639Did you watch the video? it cuts less than a one handed rapier and breaks after useIts ass
>>64634477They had and used actual wooden clubs for taking captives. The macuahuitl was designed to kill or at the very least wound so grievously that they would die later anyway.
>>64654265>zoomeranon got distracted by the third sentence, failed to read a paragraph Very sad, many such cases!
It's basically just the katana all over again. A weapon built for slashing that was good in the hands of an expert in a 1v1 fight against a foe who was not significantly armoured but that was essentially useless in mass combat against well-armoured opponents.
>>64656780They cut off HIS head, as in the lancer, after slashing at his MARE (mares are female horses).
>>64656780>zoomeranon so into identity politics, can't tell the difference between a horse and a manVery sad, many such cases!
>>64638095>It's fucking truelolhttps://web.archive.org/web/20230930131146/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergmann%E2%80%93Bayard_pistol
>>64658840
>>64639545>Ironically almost all narratives pushed about colonial expansion are anti-colonial due to the biases held by academics for at least a century at this point. And a century prior to that the narratives were pro-yourcolonialism and anti-everybodyelsescolonialism. You are over-estimating the bias and the accuracy of the results it provides. You sound like you haven't read much. > The entire narrative around the Belgian Congo for example was constructed by the Belgian parliament who wanted it out of King's hands and into that of the government, or the British because they wanted it.The narrative around Congo Free State was not incorrect, it was literally that bad. What had changed was mass media and speed at which information spread. When Roger Casement and others exposed what was happening, it spread incredibly quickly. Similar thing happened in Americas as well. The word of the atrocities against Natives did reach Europe, and Charles II did make some attempt to alleviate it. But the alleviating the atrocities would have cut into the profit margins.
>>64654060>OHS688I'll give them a look, thanks.
>>64634465>extremely painful.
>>64659589>You sound like you haven't read much.I don't believe in "Atrocities" because I'm not a moralist faggot, people kill each other for their vested interests. The situation in the Belgian Congo was that maiming was occurring as part of the tribal warfare which was always endemic to the region. The only change was now that they effectively had an economy the tribals and bandits were also raiding for raw rubber to sell in towns and conversely raiding for metal goods to sell to other tribals or utilize themselves. As usual if somebody pissed them off they maimed them or their male children so they couldn't be warriors and to send a message to everybody who passed through. Leopold did attempt to stop it, ironically enough the modern libtards and leftists criticize both his and the general colonial policy of only giving command of locally raised regiments to white men. Apparently they are too stupid to realize that giving a regiment of armed and drilled men to a local notable who likely has tribal interests is not a good idea for obvious reasons, while a somewhat impartial white officer is unlikely to massacre a village because his second great uncle was insulted a generation ago. Leopold's limited intervention did reduce the amount of banditry.You ascribe the fact that news was spread to a social signaling addicted British middle class to a change in technology and which was unforeseen by the governments in question. I attribute it to the governments themselves deliberately facilitating the spread of such stories for their own benefit. >Roger CasementYou mean the actual faggot who either made shit up or gave credence to rumors without ever trekking to the interior? The idea that they(white colonials or local notables) were chopping off the hands of their workers to incentivize them to harvest more rubber is retarded. The bandits were cutting off hands as a warning and having their own hands cut off in turn.
>>64659634As I said, you haven't read much. You sound like you watch some YouTube video.
>>64634753
>>64659601He's the artist of the furry pieces I was asked about there, OHS688 is his twitter name, (maybe on furaffinity it's something different?), apologies if that was unclear
>>64659848Eat shit faggot, what do you want a fucking dissertation? There is a character limit. An career activist who provides no physical evidence of his claimed which are based entirely on biased testimonials of interested parties means shit. I'm a genocidal white nationalist, I wish that the colonialists exterminated local populations like my own forefathers did despite the Crown and Republic obstructing us at every turn. Unfortunately the colonial authorities and conquistadors directly opposed that policy. They wanted money, while some colonists themselves benefit from eliminating the local population which generates wealth for distant elites. We all have biases, but I don't even want to defend colonialism because my desired policies were a thousand times more harsh than whatever delusions a bunch of political activists gave credence to. I just like war, if the local darkies were peaceable victims I'd actually think less of them than I already do.
>>64634477This is scholarly cope to find politically correct explanations for how 500 mercenaries could kill 50,000 South Americans in a plain after losing their artillery.
>>64636184>yeah we always lose 50:1 against the Spanish but is not fair, our weapons are for show and their weapons are for killing. Too bad we can’t manage to invent real weapons over the entire campaignCope.
>>64660172>I'm a genocidal white nationalist>admitting you're an angsty teenager in publicYou'll grow out of it anon and you'll understand when you're an adult.
>>646361845 men with regular clubs could easily kill even the best armored soldier. Likely the Aztecs didn't have good efficient formation warfare, but was likely closer to tribal warfare historically seen in Australia, and still seen in Papua, where the combat starts with some spears being thrown and then becoming a bunch of 1 on 1 duels.Real formation warfare took hundreds of years to develop, medieval European formations were vastly more effective than antique phalanxes, and Early Modern Spanish soldiers far superior again compared to their Medieval counterparts.
>>64661162People don't normally "grow out" of being psychopathic human garbage, Anon.I do admire your optimism, though.
>be conquistador >land in new world>see thisWat do
>>64662159GUMSTEETH
>muh ritualistic warfare>muh not intended to kill>muh cope>muh bullshitYou're a hopeless fuckwit.
>>64661162>the only way you can be considered an adult is if you love and respect every race and turn your country into a multi-culti shitfest >taking a strong nationalist stance is le childishlmao go fuck yourself shitlib retard
>>64661863The thing is these people never actually believe it. They just say things to get attention that they're missing in real life. It's the same reason he's comically aggressive in his replies and swears so much. All he wants is engagement and this is learned behavior. You know he doesn't believe it because, just like the rest of the emotionally stunted toddlers who profess this stuff, he never does anything and just hyperventilates online. He's just a child, mentally at least.>>64662681Don't worry little guy, you'll grow up into a big boy one day.
>>64661162>>64662741>>64661863You make a lot of assumptions given the utter dearth of data, given any anybody can claim anything about themselves. Here is my counter supposition, you are emotionalist and moralist faggots who are addicted to dopamine you get from upholding an supposed social consensuses. Therefore you conceptualize your opposition as in someway "pathetic" or low status at least rather than simply having divergent interests. I'm self-employed and well off but I assume you probably require an extensive professional social network to maintain your current status, thus you assume anybody who voices extremely non-orthodox opinions must be stupid or crazy because within the context of your life it would be ill advised to do so. And yo do this despite posting on an anonymous mogolian basket weaving forum.Your entire argument against killing enemies is "it's mean" despite humans killing each other constantly for hundreds of thousands of years when it suited their purposes. You assume reciprocal relationships where not exist. If a population has no utility to you and doesn't facilitate the indefinite survival of your family coupled with their inability to defend themselves, then killing them is completely sensible whether you like it or not.Also race is a real and extremely salient physiological phenomena, indeed at population level it is the signal determining factor of the populations relative wealth and productivty and thus utility to other parties such as you and me. India could be glassed down to the bedrock tomorrow and I would only stand to gain. Do I have to power to do that? No. Would I do it if I did? Yep. Why wouldn't I be racist in the abstract sense?Also >>64662681 is a different guy you retard. 4chanX isn't even hard to download newfag, if you are too lazy to do things for yourself
>>64663161
>>64647358duno if you'll ever reply, but what games with aztec vibe would you recommend? the ones i played that had it were serious sam and path of exile, can't recall anything else
>>64663181see>>>/v/728990251
>>64650428have a higher quality image
>>64634465Brutally effective against meat and wood. Could slice through thin metal too but the weapon would lose effectiveness after one or two blows. Word on the street is that a conquistador saw on sever the head of a horse almost clean through. Another saw a lightly armored man nearly in half from shoulder to sternum. My dick gets so hard sometimes bro. So, so hard.
>>64663511appreciate it, thanks
>>64665061>>64663511worth noting some of the stuff there is outdated, EX: plus ultra legado came out, and I forgot to update the text
What if the Aztecs won?
Logistics guy here. These things are brilliant from a logistics standpoint. The clubs themselves are made of a really sturdy hardwood and can potentially last for years of repeated use if cared for. The obsidian teeth would be child's play to set up production for.Have one or two guys lugging baskets of teeth and you're golden.
>>64634465>extremely painfulFor (You).
>>64659622for you
>>64665416They'd undergo societal and economic collapse as they lose 90% of their population to Cocolitzli. Then the Spanish would come back and take over a bunch of ruins while searching for the kingdoms that the Cortez survivors described. Probably import a shit load of African slaves.
>>64668479>>64666521hivemind
>>64634465If I hit you with this Amazon Stick will you die ?
>>64665416why does she look so familiar?>>64668662>Cocolitzlidid the spanish bring that?
>>64662159they didn't look like that
>>64671277>did the spanish bring that?They don't really know, but maybe. The leading candidates are either a native hemorrhagic fever or imported Salmonella enterica. Either way, it was made massively worse by practices the Spanish imposed on native people post conquest.
>>64636476>Without refrigeration, long pork needs to be alive not to spoil.Old-school pozole. I wonder what it tasted like without the modern old-world ingredients like cilantro and parsley
>>64636184>It wasn't meant to be used for killing people, just injuring them in a non lethal way.Bullshit. The flower wars had plenty of real killing, they weren't counting coup
>>64636184I'm so glad the spaniards fucked their cultures. Indios are lucky to still exist, the fucking savages. Every mestizo is guilty of genocide.
>>64673054That sucks.You'd think the natives would be able to fight off the Spanish. There were millions of the former and only a couple thousand of the latter.
>>64634465Effective for their situation? Absolutely.Effective against European armies? Nope.The only empire in the americas who stood a chance against europeans were the Incans but they were in the middle of a plague, civil war and probably busy fighting against the mapuche.
>>64662294what is this image supposed to convey
Probably very effective. Given their weight, they'd hit harder then say... an axe, would bind enemy weapons.The relative fragility of stone edges probably wasn't that big of an issue, there are a lot of stones on each edge, they had two edges. And I suspect you'd find that this also made it very hard to bind or parry them. You'd have some capacity to saw with them, relevant if you were half handing them or were grounded. The drawback would be the weight, you couldn't use them for fencing. But if your primary weapon was a spear of some kind that wouldn't be so much of an issue. Wooden weapons also don't bend, where metal weapons often can. Look at the Japanese clubs that were used to break other weapons. The matchakulti would simply break most metal swords.If your spear broke, you'd be fighting against a spear with your side sword. Having a side sword that could break your opponents spear was probably quiet important.
>>64673124>coupwhat
Quite fucking effectiveThe thing you need to know about 2h blades weapons is they effectively rape most other things in a 1:1 fight. Spears are far superior in formation and for handing out to serfs but if you have a fighting elite and heavy plate armor isn't a thing you know about on account of being a mesoamerican there's no reason not to give them a long bladed weapon. It's also worth mentioning that they were weapons focused around capturing prisoners. They were effective at cutting through mesoamerican cloth and leather armor, as well as Spanish cotton gambesons, but their design wasn't really made to deliver deep cuts. A lot of the surviving martial manuals involve beating the shit out of people with the flat sides of the clubs. Making spears out of all the obsidian glass that would go into a macuahuitl would probably make for deadlier weapons but that wasn't the point. Picrel was originally a blank I made for sparring with friends that I ended up lining with teeth after we realized how fucking scary the thing is. It handles like a heavy 2h with really good fucking leverage that makes it easy to whirl around.
It's just a sharp club, not a superweapon. It would explode on contact with metal armor, just like the overwhelming majority of japanese weapons that were cutting implements with shitty iron edges.
>>64674396Everyone hated the Mexica. Every single city and kingdom Cortes went to immediately agreed to destroy them. The army that took Tenochtitlan was only 2-0.7% Spanish and had hundreds of thousands of Nahua soldiers. The Spanish position after the the fall of the Triple Alliance was still tenuous, but then all the natives started dying, their social structure was shattered by the encomienda, and culture was supressed by growing Church power. While there were many more millions, literally 90% were dead by disease in the span of 50 years. The implosion of mesoamerican society is remarkable.>>64677610>clubIf the Spanish thought it was just a club, they would have called it that. Literally every instance has them calling it a sword.
>>64672681what did they look like then?
>>64679766I saw this in a Mel Gibson documentary
>>64677610>It would explode on contact with metal armor, just like the overwhelming majority of japanese weapons that were cutting implements with shitty iron edges.This is another meme. Japs had metal armor since the 8th century.
>>64679995Apocalypto is about as historically accurate as the persians in 300, which is to say not at all
>>64677560clean your room
>>64634477This is bullshit.
>>64680029prove it
>>64683609https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank%C5%8D
>>64665416would. raw.
>>64683651fake news
>>64679766your mom
>>64685489like be a cannibal?
>>64671277>why does she look so familiar?That's Jessica Alba.
>>64680543No. Both were very realistic. Basically documentaries.
>>64677161That's where your chickens sleep.
>>64687465facial features look too different
>>64639246>Eh sorta wrong, the Spanish raised huge native armies b/c the Aztecs were so fuckin horrible.Nonsense. While Cortez mentions the fat cazique comlaining about Aztec spies, the vast majority of Aztec vassals remain neutral until Tenochtitlan fell or in one instance, Cortez engineered a coup of the local ruler to swing them to their side. Cortez' ally was the Tlaxcalans (emphatically not Aztec subjects, but an independent state), and that was it.The Aztecs were exceptionally belligerent, resembling Rome in this regard, but they were also fine with letting people be after defeating them. As long as they paid their tribute and maybe provided soldiers, they could keep their rulers, gods and so on. No resettlement, no forced labour. Again mirroring Rome.And domestically, the Aztecs also had fairly remarkably social mobility through military service. Which, hey, once again mirrors Rome!The Inca by contrast, had fuckall social mobility and were exceptionally happy to engage in forced resettlements and mass conscript labour. >>64668662Cocolitzli was a direct consequence of the collapse of living conditions through forced labour and the Spanish neglecting sanitary infrastructure. If the Spanish lose, the 1/3 drop to smallpox remains, but Cocolitzli basically never happens to a notable extent.
>>64687468Not at all, I'll do a detailed response later
>>64650798bodied that virgin pseud FREAK
>>64660172>genocidal white nationalisyeah high school can be really rough
>>64647358>>64654060Well, I was waiting on someone to get some recent publications on Macuahuitl translated before I did my infodump, but it's taking a while so I'm just gonna proceed without that info if I don't hear back by the time I have time to post tommorow
>>64634596I don't care about all that, but they aren't swords. They are serrated clubs. They cannot perform as a sword as they cannot parry and riposte in the same action.
>>64677161https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counting_coup
>>64691380>serrated clubNo, the fuck they aren't. The cutting edge is an even edge. They aren't used to smash, but to cut. They're non-metallic falchions.
>>64693060NTA but i've never seen one with an even edge
>>64693066Scroll up the thread, there is an illustration of a sword and a spear from some Spanish collection that has since burned down
>>64693085this?>>64645748still serrated.
>>64693104>>64637276
>>64693107where's the spear? that one drawing is ok but every other drawing shows them as serrated, and even that one shows different pieces that probably weren't flush since it was drawn by memory.
>>64693121The drawings are probably stylized, be patient and I'll explain more soon >>64647358
>>64670514tf is an amazon stick
>>64634465All my Sheks carry those in Kenshi.
>>64634477this is the content i come to 4chan for>fistbump
Okay, i'm starting now re: >>64647358 / >>64654060 / >>64690132 etcIt was probably pretty effective, but how much so is debatableOn the Native side, both codices and textual accounts have them severing necks and limbs (see the Florentine Codex in >>64647358 and in pic related). The Spanish also praise it's lethality, Diaz states:>and two-handled stone edged swords, which cut better than our swords...made with stones which cut worse than knives, so cleverly arranged, that one can neither break nor pull out the bladesThe chronicler Baltasar Dorantes de Carranza also states Macuahuitl cut better then Spanish swords ("...las macanas, espadas de navaja que cortaban mexor que las nuestras...") but he may just be parroting Diaz (tho Diaz's account wasn't widely published yet at the time). Meanwhile, Diaz himself I suspect is also pulling from another Conquistador, the "Anonymous Conquerer", who said>They have swords...of wood... like a two-handed sword, but with the hilt not so long; about three fingers in breadth. The edges are grooved, and in the grooves they insert stone knives, that cut like a Toledo knife. I saw one day an Indian fighting with a mounted man, and the Indian gave the horse...a blow in the breast that he opened it to the entrails, and it fell dead...I saw another Indian give another horse a blow in the neck, that stretched it dead at his feetWith this likely being the origin of various other Spanish claims that Macuahuitl could behead a horse in a single stroke. As you can see here, the original claim is not quite as impressive, but still attests to it being effective. Francisco Hernández de Córdova, another Conquistador, claims it could split a man in two, but in contrast to Diaz, states that after one use the blades broke or came off:>que dividen a veces a un hombre en dos partes de un solo tajo, con tal que sea este elprimero, pues todos los demás son casi nulos e inútiles, tales son la agudeza de esta arma ysu fragilidad1/?
>>64642130>The Mesoamericans were pretty advanced when it came to agriculture, astronomy, and sanitatiomIncas had agricultural techniques at 18-19th century level Europe, including open field laboratories for plants
>>64698364I'll get to this in my dump (>>64698336) but the Mesoamericans also had experimental botanical sites like Inca ones
>>64680543>>64687468>>64688705It was loosely based on meso American culture.Mel Gibson says himself, that the movie is about American culture in the US. we lost our ways and became overly capitalist (jewish) and embraced human sacrifice (abortion(also jewish)) and we will be conquered by foreigners unless we change our ways and return to God.
>>64698336cont:Further down the spectrum of criticism we have Las Casas, who says also says blades fell out and broke easily, and that while they could "split a man's head open"(?), that they couldn't sever limbs (at least cleanly) and couldn't behead horses, because the wooden shaft would limit penetration into flesh:>Por armas tenian...espadas de palo y: hincadas unas navajas de las piedras que arriba dejimos negras como pedernales, y aunque con éstas pueden hender la cabeza a un hombre, pero no cortar cercén un brazo, puesto que le corten o quiebren o troncen el hueso, cuanto menos cortar cercén un pescuezo de un caballo con riendas y todo, como algunos dicen por engrandecer sus hazafias. La razon es la que arriba sefialamos, conviene a saber, porque no tienen tanta fuerza los filos de las dichas navajas, que facilmente los pierden. Lo que podran efectuar con aquella espada en el pescuezo del caballo, sera dalle herida cuanto entraren los filos en la carne, que no pasaran de un canto de real de plata, porque todo lo otro es grueso, por tener el lomo...Obviously some claims of their lethality and durability both on the Native and Spanish side are embellishments, but Casas was a missionary and I'm not sure he ever saw them in active combat, unlike Diaz, the Anonymous Conqueror, and Cordova, and as seen below, even poor replicas show it could in fact cut deep into flesh, and may also show they weren't one use weapons. Also, all that said, if they weren't effective, then the Mesoamericans wouldn't have used them and the Spanish wouldn't bother praising them.The Mesoamericans were not idiots or lacking good equipment: we're talking about urban civilizations that had cities (which could match some of the larger contemporary European ones in size and infrastructure) and complex governments for thousands of years before the Spanish showed up, and who had organized armies that used actual armor and specific and varied types of weapons, see pic2/?
>>64688704>the Aztecs also had fairly remarkably social mobility through military service. Which, hey, once again mirrors Rome!Also, they had slaves but you could not be born a slave, so it was possible to rise from literal slave birth to pretty high
>>64701629cont:Beyond Macuahuitl, they had simple clubs, maces with disc, ball, flanged, and spiked heads, axes, "picks", basic spears to "glaives" and "halbreds", and more, as seen in the pic in the prior post. If Macuahuitl weren't effective, they had lots of other options, and even the simplest clubs and spears were pretty damn good at killing (not that Mesoamerican weapons were "simple", as I mentioned they had bespoke variations of swords, clubs, polearms and more, and some had ornate engravings, were gilded, had precious stone inlays or mosaics, etc). You could argue the Macuahuitl was perhaps intended to incapacitate rather then kill, to allow enemies to be captured, but I'll respond to that/ritualism in warfare further down. It's also worth keeping in mind that the Macuahuitl didn't seem to catch on until late into Mesoamerican history: Obregon in his "The Macuahuitl: an innovative weapon..." paper argues it shows up in the Late Postclassic (1200AD onward), with the earliest precursors in the Early Postclassic (900-1200; I disagree as there are potential precursors as early as 1400-900BC, see the San Lorenzo Monuments in pic, but it's true that pre-Late Postclassic depictions are very rare). I've seen it argued that Late classic/early postclassic innovations in prismatic blade production method (See Healan's "Ground Platform Preparation..." paper) is what allowed the Macuahuitl to develop/become more common, though that's speculative.The fact it was relatively uncommon compared to say spears but then got popularized I think also speaks to it's efficacy: That's not something you'd see happen to a weapon that's ineffective, and I don't think it's a situation where it's only good in a niche that suddenly became more important in war. The Mexica of the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan also extensively used Macuahuitl and they were the most militarily successful group across all of Mesoamerican history, and got there in a very short amount of time3/?
Did Aztec girls fight too?Imagining a bunch of Xochitls dressed like jaguars hunting anons with their obsidian clubs.
>>64637384it's actually "ma-kwa-weeƛ" where the ƛ stands for a voiceless alveolar lateral affricative.
>>64639439>They lost an abortive expansion into Texas to a bunch of tribalswhat the actual fuck are you talking about? Aztecs weren't anywhere near Texas.
>>64665416we'd have a continent full of sexy indio ladies instead of all these morisco hags.
>>64634465What if you made this weapon with steel instead of obsidian?
>ACKCHYUALLY stone weapons are really goodBullshit contrarian take. People often get dewy eyed over history's losers, and it results in overly romantic and positive assessments of things that have been lost.
>>64658840I don’t even wanna know why whoever took that picture had to be pantsless to do so…
>>64703435Wouldn't really make any sense. This weapon is what it is because of what they had available to them and what they knew how to make, and it's extremely clever, but ONLY within that context.If you had access to the resources, tools, and knowhow, to make steel, then you could just make a conventional sword instead, which is just plain better.>>64703447I'd say that they're good for what they are, it's impressive that they developed a workable sword substitute without any good metal or metalworking. But ultimately, it's just refined caveman technology, and it has too many drawbacks.I'd love to own a good replica just because I think it's an interesting historical weapon, but if I was forced into a sword fight and got to pick my weapon, I would pick some cutlass, saber, or dao of some sort.
>>64703435>>64703814A steel macuahuitl would pretty much just be a normal sword, as people have pointed out, most Macuahuitl didn't have big gaps between the blades or anything, apparently
>>64703301>civilized>sacrificed and ate humans, monkeys, and dogsMe so-american civilization is all imaginary. You were all in huts.
>>64704676Objectively they had complex written language, monumental architecture, astronomy and mathetmatics, metalsmithing up to copper, large resorvoirs, complex agricultural praxis and fine arts like sculpting, painting and pottery.They missed out completely on bronze and iron development, mechanical principles (no siege engines or similar machines) and medicine.It's a different trajectory, but their world view was shattered by the existence of the Spanish, since they didnt need to sacrifice anyone and were still fine, had greater technology, and horses. This destroyed the authority of the Aztec elites and made their fall inevitable.
>>64634475It's easy to pronounce and remember. For Aztecs and Mayas.
>>64634465I haven't made a macuahuitl yet but I have knapped enough obsidian to know how sharp it is. One time I dropped a tiny obsidian flake which I doubt weight more than a couple grams on my foot and it cut deep enough to cause a few minutes of bleeding even though it fell under it's own weight. Descriptions of it cutting almost entirely through the body don't surprise me. The main issue that comes to mind with the macuahuitl is that obsidian is extremely fragile. The sharp edge wears down extremely rapidly especially on a flake or blade like those used in a macuahuitl. If I was trying to supply an army I might prefer to use weapons made from chert which are far more durable although I don't think chert is particularly abundant in Mesoamerica. It might have been more efficient to use obsidian due to it's low cost relative to more durable stones.
>>64705207>>64637164The thing is they had absolutely shitloads of obsidian. There's tons of Mesoamerican forts where they excavated stockpiles of obsidian for weapon production. Fragility of obsidian doesn't matter when it's trivial for them to replace the blades.
>>64705122you forgot>no wheels>no plough>no draft animals or animal powerSo they were basically inferior discount Sumers, 5000 years late to the party.
>>64705228Nobody argues that they were superior, but they had high population densities so they were not completely clueless either.Inca didnt even have money and still managed to run a large empire with food security which did in fact exceed contemporary Europeans, but that just means they were very good at mastering their environment and doing the best with what they had available to them.
>>64703273based language nerd
>>64705147The Maya didn't speak Nahuatl
>>64703301based
>>64636683They added Aztec weapons to Runescape now?
>>64650572Reminds me of this Cherokee girl I knew that was obsessed with getting plowed by a werewolf.
>>64637276Aztecs were subhuman losers though.>>64650321>photographedYou stupid fuck.>>64659589Shut the fuck up, you stupid bleeding heart bitch. You are an ignorant and emotionally driven retard and no matter any amount of drivel you post you will always be pathetic.
>>64660172Based.>>64661162>>64689702Every accusation a confession with your ilk.>>64680543Apocolypto is the most honest portrayal of preColumbian MesoAmerican empires ever put to film or page.
>>64713647>Apocolypto is the most honest portrayal of preColumbian MesoAmerican empires ever put to film or page.It's really not, and if you care about factual information and not falling prey to ignorance and emotionally driven nonsense as you claim to be, you should read my reply clarifying on that when I get to it as part of the dump I'm doing in >>64698336, >>64701629 >>64702362 etc. I've been super busy so it's taking me a longass time to get through it, but by the time I make my next post hopefully tonight, I should be able to blitz through everything relatively quickly.Also, re: "preColumbian MesoAmerican empires", the Maya (which is who the film depicts) didn't have "empires" is an obvious thing most Mesoamericanists would tell you, they had fragmented city-states and some larger dynastic kingdoms. The movie doesn't depict empires nor should it be, by that argument. That said, I would argue those larger kingdoms could be called empires if we're calling the Aztec Empire an "Empire", and If Apocalypto actually depicted anything close to a functional empire then that would be a significant improvement over the dogshit in the movie, because at no point in the movie is there a presentation of actual politics, diplomacy, or any sort of societal fabric. It's not even just that it demonizes them inaccurately (though it does plenty of that), it whitewashes and infantilizes them as innocent hippies at other points, too.
>>64713637That image is clearly an etching of a photograph.Also, kill yourself.
>>64712459They added Varlamore as a new region, which is an Aztec-Roman mishmash. So things like that or an Alatl, but also stuff like Sol Heredit (pictured)
>>64634810It's occurred independently in multiple societies. Have you read War Before History?
>>64714850To be fair, what was posted WAS an etching, I could see somebody thinking it was just a very realistically drawn sketch
>posted 21 days agoThe longest /k/ thread I've ever seen, by far, and its 90% lies and disinformation
>>64699910You should dig /his/ archive, there was an incaboo there with lot's of interesting photos and research. He also had photos of Incan palace and terraces unlike the usually well known pyramids.
>>64705228>no wheelsIncorrect>no ploughchinampa farming was literally more effective than modern industrial farming>no draft animals or animal powerHow the fuck is that their fault? How does one invent an animal?
>>64717905>How does one invent an animal?skill issue
>>64717617I'm trying my best to infodump reliable info (>>64698336) and reply to stuff with corrections but I've been busy as shit>>64717752I've tried to get Andean-architecture-anon's contact info a few times, he wasn't interested sadly.
>>64719627I recognize you from /his/ my fellow sperg. This thread is a lost cause they're all willingly ignorant, for every person speaking reasonably theres 20 spewing unsourced lies. Best not to bother
>>64717905>How does one invent an animal?there is no evidence that the ancestor species of domestic horses were in some way more intrinsically tameable than the American bison
>>64722054That's never stopped me from infodumping before
>>64701629So many of the good, modern replica tests I've seen have all just been chopping with them. I want to see one person who knows what a draw cut/slash is. The last two youtube videos I saw both had the cuts limited by the blades running into something hard, breaking, and the now blunt edge stopping the sword. A proper slash would keep dragging new blades through the cut and prevent a chipped blade from stopping. It would also allow to be a bit "gentler" when landing a blow, since you don't have to purely rely on how hard you swung the blade to get a good cut. Would make sense for a warrior to use them like that. As for picrel, I'm not a fan of the skallgrim guy, but this the first picture I could find that illustrates it a bit.
>>64724251Precussive impacts vs a sliding cut is something that comes up in one of the experimental archeology papers I plan to bring up later in the dump
>>64724251>I want to see one person who knows what a draw cut/slash is.Draw cut/slash is a fake meme invented by Victorian britbong chuds same who invented longbow myth.
>>64728551explain
posting again in forever thread
>>64722920There's also no evidence they weren't
>>64639439>Also they got what they deserved for being weakAdvances in technology can be luck based. They were arguably strong enough locally, Europeans arriving is like alien tech coming over the pond, no amount of strength or foresight can protect you from the new paradigm that appeared from nowhere to you.Might maybe right, but that doesn't mean they are weak, it just means they may have missed fundamental adaptions due to isolation making them weak in comparison to the wider world, connecting to a civilisation that has advances you missed by chance is a dangerous thing. Imagine if Europe never learnt about gunpowder.If the aztecs had access to firearms and modern statehood earlier they may well have been a threat and we'd have to collectively bargain with cannibal nations instead of dominating them.I find it funny when people discuss old western leadership crimes the same way, when they fail to understand is how difficult it is to control people when you don't fundamentally understand how people work. They had to go by vibes so much more than the modern man for even basic functions.Civilisation leadership was also vibes for generations, a lot of British leadership failures in india for instance were tests or inexperience that then lead to sucesses later down the road. We can look back at our ancestors and consider them ignorant, but those ancestors rose from ignorance and built the modern world off of the backs of generations of testing and trial and error.
>>64717905>Incorrectcorrect. worthless clay toys with no utility don't count.>chinampa farming was literally more effective than modern industrial farmingdelusional>>64732765so until you find evidence for it we can safely conclude that they had none.
>>64705502Or maybe modern research just overblows their estimated population by the order of 5x and tries drawing such conclusions from that without any reliable evidence.>food security which did in fact exceed contemporary EuropeansComparing a temperate European climate to evergreen American tropics is quite disingenous, don't you think? Especially with the little ice age going and all.
>>64732851The toys have axels, they clearly understood the mechanical principals and advantages of wheeled vehicles.if scaled up they would be functional carts, and indeed there is some evidence they may have used carts in some circumstances, though it's contentious and
>>64634465You can only cut someone as deep as the stones are proud of the wood so you either need to hit somewhere vulnerable like the neck or wait for them to bleed out. And the more proud of the wood the stones are, the more fragile they are. And also this weapon would be stopped pretty easily by any armor. There is a reason why nobody else has ever used anything like it.
>>64634753Why do you have this picture of my carry pistol resting on my penis saved?
>>64650321>>64637276>>64648584whoah thanks anons very cool
>>64734807>The toys have axelsThe toys are made of clay and cannot roll without falling apart.>they clearly understood the mechanical principals and advantages of wheeled vehicles.They didn't understand jack shit, they just made a spinny toy so now worthless shitskin-worshipping retards like you cope about the backwards stone age savages with zero redeeming qualities about them.
>>64665416One time I made a grand strategy campaign where the Mayans converted to Christianity and conquered western Europe and Anatolia then went on to convert to Judaism and conquered southeast Asia. Very comfy. Can't for the fucking life of even remember which game at this point but I maintained it for like a year for 5 minutes at a time. That was almost 20 years ago.
>>64703273To is pronounced differently depending on what dialect of Nahuatl. Some US natives also have the tl cluster but pronounce it very differently, especially the Navajo.
