Still reeling from the sheer retardation of the Battleship proposal, plus that it'll be replacing the DDG(X) project.But the FF(X) looks good. It won't have VLS in it's first flight, but it'll have an established supply chain and available logistics for repair and maintenance. As long as they don't try to make more capable than it needs to be, i think it'll be a good boat.
>>64671743what's its purpose without even VLS?
>>64671743In what way is it a good boat, what capabilities does it bring to the table? I hope to hell there's a towed sonar array and torpedo stores for the heli onboard because otherwise this thing is fucking pointless.>no VLS>same small radar as on LCS>only RAM and 57 for air defense>level 1 survivabilityAt minimum it can't provide local air defense. If it's lacking a towed array or a sufficient torpedo magazine it won't provide ASW. If it can't do either of those it's a lame duck. I hope to hell the ASW capabilities are there because otherwise this thing is a meme.
>>64671804It won't have VLS in it's FIRST flight
>>64671752>what's its purpose without even VLS?We only have 28 LCS operational despite 35 being delivered. The fact they're totally cool with a Flight I without a VLS screams to me that they want more small ships to do small ship/LCS shit, but with the earliest hulls of both LCS variants retired because they were so fucked up they have a shortfall there. It also allows the manufacturer to spin up production and hire a shitload of people *now* so by the time they finish the redesign (read - cut the hull in half and cram in a new section with a 32 cell VLS and make room for SM-2 guidance radars) the yard/manufacturers will all be tooled up and more importantly, hired up. Personnel is a big pinch point these days.
>>64671804>If it's lacking a towed array or a sufficient torpedo magazine it won't provide ASW.The weird fucking drive system of the LCS reportedly makes them so noisy that even at five knots a towed array would be useless. Maybe that's bullshit tho idk. But at present the ASW module was cancelled. The mine hunting module IS working; they're using surface drones instead of the failed underwater drone for it, and the Independence class boats are being equipped with it. The Freedom class are all being configured for anti-surface with the 24 missile Hellfire VLS (anti-surface anti-air, durkadurka muhammed jihad in speedboats or these days, drones,) 30mm cannons, and they're slapping box launchers for NSM or Mark 70 VLS for whatever the fuck on the rear deck. In short, there's a gap here for ASW pickets. LCSs bring 1/2 Seahawks which is great for ASW and all, but not having their own towed sonar is still a big negative. These cutters are perfect as ASW platforms. They don't even need a VLS for VLA rockets because Muh Drones; no need to even loft a Seahawk to drop a fish on a detected contact when modern drones are so reliable. "Welcome back Q-Dash" basically. As I said in >>64671857 the Flight IIs with a sizeable VLS are coming. Quad-packed ESSM does a lot of work here; even just 16 cells gets you 64 fuckin interceptors. With 32 they could carry 64 interceptors with enough range to cover a small flotilla or their side of a larger fleet and 15 SM-2s or even SM-6 for long range crossing shots or over the horizon anti-air/anti-surface. You wouldn't need many of those things to cover a fleet of Flight Is/LCS's doing littoral things in the littorals, and those VLS cells would integrate seamlessly with a larger fleet.tl;dr this is a third LCS variant and since they've given up on the modular bullshit, this one will be AAW/ASW focused.
>>64671743Assuming they can get actual hulls in the water, I think it's smart not to delay the initial flights rather than try to slap on a paltry 16 VLS anyways. The sooner you can free up Burkes the better. That's 90-96 cells, more than any frigate would ever conceivably have.
>>64671829Yeah, making the first flight pointless. Even once it gets VLS it is still limited by the radar.>>64671857This is literally the same mentality that the LCS class was built under.>oh yeah we'll add the capability in later
>>64671899LCS such and Constellation failed because the navy couldn't settle on a final hull form before putting ships in the water. This resulted in kludgy shitty ships. Getting a good, modular hullform with room for improvement and building it out in flights is what made the Burkes such successful ships and is the hallmark of successful naval design programs.
>>64671944LCS was literally built for modularity, part of the reason that program failed is the modularity failed to materialize. And you're talking about stretching the hull significantly for increased capability, on a hull with a troubled past with regards to its structure. Need I remind you that with cold war era spending and capability, a 10% stretching of Arleigh Burkes for a much less ambitious increase in capabilities, would've taken 6 years of work. And we haven't even touched on power requirements or the limited radar.
>>64671743The Trump BBG is just a resuurrected CG(x) which was going to swallow the DDG(x) whole anyways.
>>64671885Can the MIW module detect and prosecute seabed mines?
>>64671996The LCS "modular" around mission modules that could be swapped like legos, but the hullform itself was quite inflexible and maxed out. I'm using the word differently to describe a hull with the space for design upgrades over time.
>>64671804Trying to arm surface combatants against aircraft is a lost cause; it's best air defense, is sticking close to the carrier group.
>>64671899"Modular mission modules" were entirely different, it's like "built for but not with" but fucked up, sideways, and retarded. The Flight I ships and Flight II ships are going to be fundamentally different ships, just as Flight II and Flight IIA Burkes are. Flight I will militarize the hull, Flight II adds a whole new fucking middle section. This isn't that hard to do, we did it with one of the Seawolf class boats while it was UNDER CONSTRUCTION to add a Spooki Bois module. They cut container ships in half and shove in a whole new middle section all the time, they call it "jumboization." It's not that much more difficult to add in power/water/pneumatic lines for a VLS, for fucks sake. The sensors to guide the weapons will be more difficult and they'll probably put the radar on the Flight I version anyway.
>>64672009Fuck if I know. It doesn't have a UUV for that, if that's what you need, but the well deck supports divers with RIBs and DPVs so they could always grugbrain it. I think the towed line arrays are probably good enough to image a seabed mine tho. >>64671996>LCS was literally built for modularity, part of the reason that program failed is the modularity failed to materializeThey literally wanted to remove entire sections of the ship with a crane and put it in a shipping container. The Burkes were built with room to grow and a well thought out layout so cramming new shit in later was a lot easier without rejiggering half the design.
>>64671894>90-96 cells, more than any frigate would ever conceivably have90-96 is plausible, the Norks have 74 on theirs. If they ditched the flight deck they would have no problem fitting another 48 for 122 tubes.
>>64671743Battleship may not be FULLY retarded.Read my write up ideas here and weigh in:>>64672493>>64672533
>>64671885>flight IIs with VLS are comingJust like how the DD21, CG(X), DDG(X), FFG(X) and others are coming? The FF(X) is dogshit and less capable than the upgunned LCS the US is literally building right now for other countries. There's literally no excuse to be building these shitty little boats.
>>64672626.... you're citing programs that failed because they tried to do everything as the reason that a cheap-ass ASW cutter is going to fail, and a successor that puts in a hull plug with a VLS? are you retarded, anon?
>>64672653This. You simply can't make a ship as capable as the Burke for 2/3 then price and size like everyone seems to think. Burkes are still being built at a decent clip and that will continue for the foreseeable future. What the Navy is actually hurting for is smaller ships that can do the slop jobs Burkes are currently being forced to take on. Then you have the giant Trump BBG that is nominally replacing the Ticos. You can quibble with the design designs, but it's the most coherent vision for fleet composition we've had in three decades.
>>64672687>most coherent vision for fleet composition we've had in decadesAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHWho the fuck are you fooling? A destroyer force made up of a maxed out, bloated band aid only used because of repeated failures to design a replacement, a rushed kludge job of a "frigate" that is just a barely dressed up cutter, and a large combatant that is the pumped up corpse of the destroyer replacement. That's your coherent design? It's just the rancid afterbirth of the Navy lurching around blindly and senselessly.All this is, is an all consuming display of idiocy.>>64672653>yeah man, we're going to totally turn this cuttter into a real frigate!>totally isn't going to end up like literally every other surface combatant that we've tried to design since the Soviet Union was a thing!They're trying to reinvent the wheel for no other reason. They need actual surface combat hulls now, not at the other side of a retarded procurement process. The ship they're trying to turn the cutter into exists now and is being built now. Just fucking buy that.
Honestly cancelling the Constellation class was way more retarded than than the battleship thing. Ignoring pissing 9 billion up the wall they've replaced a mature off the shelf design of a large modern frigate and replaced it with a sexed up cutter that currently exists only as a CGI model.Genuinely unmothballing the Perry class might be a better option at least they have a fucking one armed bandit which is more than can be said for FF(X).
>>64671743It's fucking awful, so awful it's incredible. Isn't survivable, doesn't have sonar, AAW/aegis complement doesn't exist. It's useless, it's not even a frigate.
>>64671857>screams to me that they want more small ships to do small ship/LCS shitSo they want small patrol ships that can't patrol without support or in home waters, instead of ships that can stand up against a peer? Brilliant.
>>64672626Yeah, anyone who thinks flight 2 will happen is a retard. It'll take more work than the Constellation classes to get the Legend anywhere close to that level. It will require more serious modifications which caused all those issues with the Connies.
>>64672687>ou simply can't make a ship as capable as the Burke for 2/3 then price and size like everyone seems to think.They weren't they were trying to make a mini-burke in the fashion of a FREMM like every other western heavy posses. Pretending they wanted the burke with everything but smaller is you being disingenuous. They wanted a scaled down burke, not a miniaturised burke.
>>64672778The MMSC is an utterly maxed out design for a navy with 0 access to ESSM or standards. It's not a worthwhile ship
>>64672823But they ended up designing a minimized Burke anyways. They ended up with a unstable and unfinished deisgn.
>>64672837No, they ended up with scaled down Burke's, not miniaturised. Which is exactly what they wanted/needed. There were still obstacles to overcome but pretending the issue was with them being general purpose frigates, like most in the world, is straight up cope.
>>64672827The Saudis variant is not bad and the best small ship the US dockyards have made in two decades. Blows the standard LCS classes and Legend out of the water
>>64672852The U.S. doesn't need general purpose frigates though. The FREMM is a poverty solution for Euro navies which have no other means of carrying fleet defense missiles so they have no choice but to spec heavy into AAW. The Navy wanted the constellation to be a general purpose frigate and then overdesigned the shit out of it. It's not necessary especially when the Navy is hurting for smaller hulls to handle shit Burkes are too good for.
>>64672856It's not bad for the Saudis, but the U.S. doesn't need it.
>>64672874The US does need it or it wouldn't be making the FF(X)
>>64672867>The U.S. doesn't need general purpose frigates thoughThe USN does, they need a smaller cheaper combatant that can do less important roles and can supplement the DDG(X). And now the DDG(X) is turning into a "battleship" so max only 18 will be made. Because without a frigate you can send roughly 6 ships at one. Meaning one hit vessel and the fleet is dead. The USN needs bodies and the ability to lose a ship and continue. There are 74 active Burke's and you want them replaced with 18 Trump class ship with no further AAW support?
>>64672867>The FREMM is a poverty solution for Euro navies>America cancelled their FREMM as it was too expensive Damn...
>>64672886But that's my point. The FF(x) is a much more limited design. Which is actually good. The fact they are restraining themselves and not loading it up with stupid shit is a MAJOR step forward. You also have to acknowledge the context of the program. They want a ship that multiple shipyards can churn out quickly. And there is room in the design for improvements, but as we learned with the Constellation the shipyard can't make it work if they dont get a final design from the Navy. In the long run a coherent build strategy is way more important.
>>64672867>It's not necessary especially when the Navy is hurting for smaller hulls to handle shit Burkes are too good for.So we don't need smaller ships to handle stuff that the Burke's are too good for but there but we also do? Where are the other ships that can take these roles? Not the LCS, not the Legend. Closest thing is the OHPs
>>64672901You're missing the key context that Burkes are still being built and will be for some time. The problem is you're never going to build a frigate with the defensive armament and survivability requirements of the USN. See the Constellation. Ff(x) are rectifying the gap left by LCS failures. And when it comes to VLS the trend very obviously moving to offloading launchers onto USVs
>>64671743I don't like it. The navy (Navy remember) need a Burke lite, something that can do everything a Burke can (in particular go round the world), but with less crew. Also not sent into combat, rather holding, patrolling, administering distributed sensors, and defending itself. It might have to be quite big, with VLS more canned and inflexible as part of semi-automation. And I'm requiring VLS, don't need a foreign patrol boat, US coast guard has VLS already.
JUST BUY THE FUCKING UPGRADED MOGAMI FRIGATESTHEY ARE LITERALLY GOD TIER FRIGATES AND JAPAN KNOWS HOW TO BUILD THEM ON TIME AND ON BUDGET. FUCK.
>>64672909>Which is actually goodIt isn't when it can't do anything and with it's upgrades: sonar, VLS, radar. It will be even more work than the Constellation to fit those on the Legend hulls. >They want a ship that multiple shipyards can churn out quicklySo they want useless hulls that eat manpower and costs? Why not then do something even cheaper and more shit? Also the Legends aren't something that are quick to construct, they take years.>And there is room in the design for improvements,There is no room for improvements, the ship doesn't have space for any of these changes.>In the long run a coherent build strategy is way more important.Sure but this isn't one, it's repeating the mistakes of the constellation on a worse hull
>>64672919My point is you dont need a 7,500 GP frigate. A cutter style vessel with better sea-keeping for ASW and minesweeping is perfect. A FREMM style frigate is vastly overspeced into that role, same as a Burke.Basically the Constellation was a frigate gerring pushed up into a destroyer, FF(x) is a corvette pushed up to frigate. I think that is what the navy needs, even though VLS counts are sexy and it's hard to give up that ghost.
>>64671743>FF(X) Thoughts?The game's far too linear for most of its length. Just because you can go backwards on the line doesn't make it any less of a line.
>>64672932You're missing the context that the Burke's needs replacing. Making more isn't the answer, the answer is general purpose frigates. And yes you can make a frigate that meets level 3 survivability, OHPs, and have that arsenal. The FF(X) isn't filling the gap left by the LCSs because it is based off an even worse design. You're saying making ships is hard so we must revert back to our worst hull, because it floats right now and we don't care for it's uses.
>>64672827>0 access to ESSM or standardsIt has 16 Mk41 VLS cells, retard.
>>64672935> something that can do everything a Burke can to clarify, do it all but not as well. Weaker radar, worse damage control, smaller worse CCC. One of its jobs will be to shoot its missiles on command from (actually fighting) Burke that needs support. The ASW is more and more automated its a flip the UUV over the side or send helicopter to Burke effort from Burke lite
>>64672962Sorry I was saying the Saudi navy has no VLS, hence why they want the MMSC
>>64672949Yes the USN does, the USN want larger cruiser sized DDG(X) before the Trump class because who knows what's going on there. So to supplement these larger destroyers/cruisers they need general purpose frigates that can do well enough and can network well with the DDG(X). What the USN doesn't need is a 4000 ton patrol boat when facing down china, it has no role in a peer conflict. Also the cutter doesn't work for modern ASW, it needs a large hangar for it's helicopter. It needs VLS for ASROC and future replacement and the VLS for SSGNs. It needs a bow mounted sonar and a towed array. None of that is a cutter, nor can a cutter do these things. Replacing a firgate with a patrol boat doesn't work to save money as these patrol boats can't do the roles needed.
>>64672970>it needs a large hangar for it's helicopterIt literally has two hangars and operates MH-60 Jayhawks. The FF(X) is a stupid boat, but could worthless retards at least try and figure out what the fuck you're even talking about?
>>64672970Burke FLT III is that ship, anon. I hate to break it to you. The Constellation shows the Navy will load it up with too much shit and make it useless. Guided missile ships are getting bigger, if Burkes are getting strained a 7,500 ton replacement isn't the answer.
>>64672986The FREMM Is that ship, the F100 is that ship, the Mogami is that ship, the Type 26 is that ship, the F126 is that ship, the Type 52 is that ship. Your answer to previous failed designs is to give up on these requirements and capabilities.
>>64671899Apples to oranges
>>64671885>24 missile Hellfire VLS (anti-surface anti-air, durkadurka muhammed jihad in speedboats or these days, drones,)Huh. I didn't even know this was a thing.
>>64672983I meant more Independence size for prolonged sub hunting if you wanted something purely dedicated to sub hunting.
>>64671885>As I said in >>64671857 # the Flight IIs with a sizeable VLS are coming.Ive got a bridge to sell you.
>>64671743I will add on top of what everyone else has said, the range in the light version will be insane. Nat security cutters are 10k+ nautical miles. That's steaming from the east coast to Japan range.
>>64673047Impressive they can sail into China's waters on one tank of gas, it's truly over for China
>>64671743>It won't have VLS in it's first flight, butThe fucking /k/ope lmao
>>64671804It can't even really defend itself against air attacks without at least a RAM launcher and ESSMs.This thing is basically only good for yelling at pirates in dingies.Even the houties with iranian garbage anti-ship missiles would just causally sink this thing.There's 1000ton corvettes with more air defence than this 5000ton pile of garbage.
>>64673011Literally all inferior to the Burke in quality and exist in far fewer numbers. Type 54 is the Chink frigate btw, 52 are their destroyers.This is my point. The navy doesn't need a worse, smaller Burke. I'm glad they're not turning the FF(x) into one.
>>64672687>but it's the most coherent vision for fleet composition we've had in three decades.Anon please, I bet you, do not post such sentences.I nearly died from laughter.
>>64671743>But the FF(X) looks goodNo it doesn't. It's worse than an LCS in every way. It took some serious balls for someone to try and pass this pile of shit off as a frigate, it barely qualifies as an oversized patrol boat.
>>64673510>Literally all inferior to the Burke in quality and exist in far fewer numbersThe Burke is an ancient, outdated design bloated up 6 times in a row to carry more and more junk.It doesn't even have a modern hull that handles sea states well, it's top heavy due to the radar too big for the ship, and the systems are ancient outdated crap requiring 359 crew.The ships you "mock" almost have the same capability as the burke, at 2/3rds the size, with 90-110 crew thanks to modern systems, and they cost 1/4th to 1/3rd of what a burke costs.
>>64673532>these ships with 0 combat record are so good, trust me2/3 of France's frigate force couldn't fire missiles during the April 2018 Syria strikes, and they have run into major fucking issues with magazine depth during Operation Aspides.
>>64671885>Hellfire VLS (anti-surface anti-air, durkadurka muhammed jihad in speedboats or these days, drones,)Hellfire is not anti air at all.
>>64673544Wrong. They get used against slow moving suicide drones like Shaheds because they're cheap.
>>64672874The USN needs whatever it can get right the fuck now you drooling mongoloid subhuman. The clock has run the fuck out, hulls are required IMMEDIATELY and no, you cannot afford to be picky. If the country had a fucking brain it would just be buying whatever the fuck the Euros/Koreans/Japanese can build out of foreign yards. And yes, the laws forbidding that should be killed immediately because the big one is coming and people are going to fucking die because of the naval procurement disasters of the last twenty years.
>>64673606>If the country had a fucking brain it would just be buying whatever the fuck the Euros/Koreans/Japanese can build out of foreign yards.thisorder MEKOs you fat faggots
>>64671857it screams desperation because they nuked fremm design from orbit asking for insane shit to be added to a point that it was a totally new design and one that was actually worse than the initial design with higer CoG
>>64673606>the big one is comingI hope you have a basementTake off your glassesLet me see your eyesThey're red and bloodshotExactly like mineThat's completely normalEverything's completely normal
