Where's everyone that claimed that attack helicopters and air assaults were obsolete now?
>>64715638Their fantasy reformer cope platforms personally manned by them would totally had been able to have single-handedly repelled the US air assault.
Fuck off chink
I apologize, but in my defense I merely said that the pilot was the biggest bottleneck with attack helicopters. When you stop designing around the pilot you can get very streamlined and min-maxed designs.
They're still thinking that retarded slavs being incompetent means that choppers are obsolete and need to be all replaced with UAVs and quadcopters
>>64715638*in peer conflicts
>>64715688>>64715697Russia used their Helis defensively with decent sucess during the Counteroffensive in the south.The first Ukrainian incursion into Russia on April 1st, 2022, was done with Helis.Helis were used to resupply Mariupol. TZD
That's like saying trucks are obsolete because they'll get blown up by the enemy. Then mainly the air force blows up a safe path for them and you start to celebrate how truck chads are so fucking back.
>>64715686Yea, except while AI has the pattern recognition of an autistic savant on meth, it also has the decision making of a three year old with down syndrom.It's just not ready yet.
M-60L did most of the work.
>>64715638No attack helos were used though. And this was supported by 150 fixed wing aircraft. A similar raid of 11 helos in a ukraine like scenario would not have gone nearly as well.
>>64715697*If you don't perform proper SEAD/DEAD like retarded slavs
>>64715638Only dumbfuck ziggers claimed this as a way of coping with their own incompetence.
>>64715638They're going to be in hiding for the next week or so.
>>64715742>ask grok about the history of fort townsend>it starts talking about fort worden instead>"no grok, you're talking about fort townsend, tell me about fort worden">rattles off a summary of the first two hits on a google search>"don't you know anything else?">it proceeds to start making shit up that has nothing at all to do with fort townsend, fort worden, or western washington in general>going to belfair yesterday, let the tesla drive itself>it misses the turnoff>it then attempts to go the wrong way down a side street to get back on courseThese things aren't quite ready for prime time yet. I'm okay with them putting together resumes and fooling brainrotted zoomers, but I'm not sure how I feel about letting one operate an attack helicopter. The problem with our approach to AI was that we didn't actually pursue AI, but instead we tried to simulate and approximate AI.>real ai doesn't get shit wrong and when it doesn't know the answer, it doesn't just make one up>humans get shit wrong all the time and when they don't know the answer, they absolutely make shit up>our shitty ai is arguably closer to the real thing than good ai would be
>>64715986We've been using neural net technology for years, within appropriate constraints it's incredibly useful technology. Computer vision that can ID a target and provide its certainty score for instance, wonderful. Flight systems that dynamically compensate for airframe damage in real time, brilliant.The overgrown Cleverbot that people think is alive because it can string words together convincingly being handed final authority in a kill chain? Less wonderful and brilliant.
I mean, a couple of 50cals on a roof or two could have shut that assault down.
>>64716096>“Muzzle flash, 9 o,clock. Guns, guns.”>DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA>… “Hit em’ again.”>DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA
>>64716123You wait until they're closer.That's a lot of rooftops to watch, and a lot of low flying targets.
>>64715697>The poorest nation in Europe is the peer of the (former) "second most powerful army in the world"What level of cope is this?
>>64715742So just make them maxi-drones.
>>64715782Did Raptor finally get actual kills or were they only providing air cover as usual?
>>64716096>I mean, a couple of 50cals on a roof or two could have s-ACKhttps://files.catbox.moe/r70zty.mp4imagine dying for maduro lel
>>64716166They had at most maybe five airworthy F-16As so old that they're still dayfighters and 20-something Su-30s, given that the airfields were hit and nobody seemed too eager to die for Maduro I suspect any pilots that actually made it to any surviving airframes decided to find a reason not to bother.When you clock it's the USAF and USN instead of some regional bullshit do you really want to be the one guy who actually sorties?Bottom line is there was nobody in the air to engage, Raptor-chan's wait for her first combat A2A kill continues.
>>64715986Well yeah, despite the terminology that marketers use they aren't AIs
>>64715638If you can SEAD, the helos can feed.
>>64716126Roofs usually dont have heat signatures moving around...
>>64716226ACCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKK!!!!
>>64716226And notice how you can't see the helicopter from the ground at all when it has all the lights off and flies with NV and thermals. Good lucking trying to aim at it without putting on searchlights.
>>64716257I'd be on my roof watching if that shit went down.Can't be the only one.
>>64716279This. Roofs would be full of people.
>>64715742Isn't that just a Kiowa pilot?
All those videos filming helicopters fly by could have been machine gunners or manpads>>64716277You would see it with your own thermals.... And if you don't have that then good luck fighting at night
>>64715782There were definitely attack helicopters used unloading rockets direct line of sight unlike the russians lobbing unguided rockets at a distance at maybe city sized targets
>>64716878Ah yes, Venezuala, well known for their competent procurement and well equipped forces /sarcasm
>>64716904It doesn't cost money to take training and planning seriously
>>64716908uh.... yes it does.
>>64716904>/sarcasm
>>64716139>4 years and the outcome is unclearEvidently it is.
>>64716973
Please Fucking explain in your American speak how this was not an inside job!? Fucking helicopters coming across the border are lighting up the radars and setting off all the Fucking beep beep beeps and getting long tone and locked on but no Fucking missiles are shooting at them at all!? How the Fuck is that possible? All you need is some lowkey troops even with Rocket Launchers and just launch it in their general direction! They can't Fucking Doge like plains! Fucking fake made up AI operation!
Also has a helicopter ever even Fucking shot down a plain!? Venezuela has Fucking plains!
Fuck off you chinkshill
>>64717177What part of SEAD and DEAD don't you understand?Thermal and nightvision top of the line pilots supported by drones and F-35s overhead, fully transparent battlefield. >>64716226They knew the enemy positiosn and movements better than the enemy.
>>64715986>>64716021No you don't understand, we just need to spend a few hundred billion more on new datacenters then it will start working they way we want it to. Money pls
>>64717217>What part of SEAD and DEAD don't you understand?I don't Fucking speak American and your nerd Zoomer slang!
>>64715782See >>64716226They were flying around strafing shit with guns and dumbfire rockets.
>>64715697America doesn't have peers
>>64715782>A similar raid of 11 helos in a ukraine like scenario would not have gone nearly as well.A US vs RUS scenario wouldn't be that much different, F-22s would keep the enemy airforce on the ground as it did in Syria, stealth bombers and F-35s SEAD/DEAD anything larger than a manpad, there's the possiblity of losing a heli or another to a lucky manpad or AAA ambush, but as seen in this operation MH-60M DAPs are incredibly effective against ground fire even at close range.
>>64717184There are claims that some Iranian helicopters managed to down some Iraqi jet fighters during their conflict in the 1980s, but they are poorly documented. Either way, while Venezuela may have some jet planes, if the pilots decide nope, not today, Maduro is not worth risking my life for, the planes are just chunks of metal on the ground.
>>64717379Were the helicopters firing phoenix missiles or how did they take down jets?
>>64715638Genuinely asking, who's been saying attack helicopters and air assaults are obsolete? Maybe I'm not looking closely enough, but the only threads I see on /k/ claiming something is obsolete are tanks. I can't recall a single thread saying attack helicopters are obsolete.
>>64717435>who's been saying attack helicopters and air assaults are obsolete?A bunch of retards here, and also the Japanese who have decided to deactivate all of their attack helicopter wings and replace them with drones.
>>64717435After seeing how many Russian Ka-52s and Mi-8s were lost to Ukrainian MANPADS, people started assuming that attack choppers and air assaults were things of the past. That’s exactly when China revealed their heavy attack helicopter last year (Z-21), people dismissed as being already obsolete because era of the combat attack chopper was supposedly already over. But after yesterday's mission, it seems to be over only for militariew who can't into SEAD/DEAD like the Russians.
>>64716126>You wait until they're closer.That just gives them more time to spot you. Chopper gunners are constantly looking around and checking heat signatures on roof tops while those people sitting on roofs likely don’t even have night vision equipment.
>>64717435There's a gradient to things. In a peer or near-peer conflict helicopters will be very vulnerable. Of course if you're dabbing on a third world country you can basically do anything you like.
>>64715638>>64715748>"Hind at home" did a better job than the real one
>>64717279>I don't understand this board That's because you belong elsewhere.
>>64717403>Were the helicopters firing phoenix missiles?They might have had brand-name sidewinders.
>>64716226That explains why there were very little manpads being used. Good luck aiming when it’s pitch black, your comms are jammed and the enemy has advanced ir. Wonder why Russia didn’t think to do their invasion at night.
>>64715638Helicopters are obsolete when Russians/Muslims/Communists use themTanks are obsolete when Russians/Muslims/Communists use themFighter Jets are obsolete when Russians/Muslims/Communists use themAD doesn't work when Russians/Muslims/Communists use themetc.The tank, helicopter, etc. are all very much alive, it just depends on the user
>>64719309>it just depends on the userIt just depends on the target.They're only useful anymore when bullying third world countries.
>>64717359China will get there in the foreseeable future.t. not a chink, but you will call me one anyway
Did they use Seahawks?
>>64716904curiously all socialists grow to look like this in 2-3 generations
>>64719235>>64715748It's such a sexy bird
I've said it before and I'll say it again, with future tech (datalinked drones, long range NLOS missiles) helicopters are just expensive, exposed, unarmored missile trucks. Still good for bullying shitholes like venezuela or russia, not worth it against state of the art foes like china will be eventually.
>>64719842Okay Chang
>>64719845Since china triggers you so much: As a corollary, helicopters will be utterly useless against western (US or probably european) forces.
>>64719842>>64719855china has been ruled by indisputably non-han dynasties for 1200 of the last 2000 years, what makes you think continued capital and technological accumulation won't lead to the same situation?
>>64715986>Living in WA
>>64719828No, Big Black Hawks
>>64719893Did MARSOC or DEVGRU participate in the raid?
>>64719901No, Delta and the FBI HRT did. FBI was there to arrest Maduro as Delta had no authority to do so.
>>64715742You have AI controlled for 90% of the time with remote human supervision and control for the 10% of the operation when things actually start happening. That's exactly how the Reaper and Predator drones worked in Iraq and Afghanistan.
>>64716908People won't plan and train for free. The US spends more on its national guard than South America does on its entire military .
As someone that kept saying choppers are vital I'm feeling pretty smug right now.
Let's see what Copelord has to say
>>64720267
>>64719839Can a missilefag tell me what the outer pylon missiles areThe lower rack looks like dollarstore hellfires with the sensor cap painted on, and I don't recognize the tapered neck upper rack
>>64720284AKD-9/10. Seems like the same missile body with a different seeker.
>>64720284Looks like a Brimstone missile. It's possible that's the Colombian "Arpia" Black Hawk since they're the only other country who operates the armed Black Hawk
>>64715638Too bad Venezuela didn't have a single boy with rocket launcher or drone.
>>64720284>>64720323
>>64720337>It's possible that's the Colombian "Arpia" Black HawkIt's the Chinese copy.
>>64720344Yes because Maduro kept majority of arms under lock in case of local/neighboring happenings. Can't have your own military armed with heavy weaponry. Oh no. That'll be bad news for a dictator.
>>64719235I've never really understood the point of these over a dedicated attack helo when the conversion removes all troop capacity. Is it an endurance thing? Making them harder to pick out as threats among conventional UH-60s maybe?
>>64721251I think they're just cheap to operate and dunking on thirdies doesn't require more.
>>64716314>>64716279>I'd be on my roof watchingThen you are a retard. If shit hits the fan you don't gawk and watch, you take cover and wait until the threat is over. If not don't complain for getting hit by a stray and all your neighbors being told you were a "spotter"
>>64721251Parts commonality with the rest of the fleet of Black Hawks and even the pilots can pilot them interchangeably. Thus the operating costs are way lower than having a transport and a dedicated attack chopper.In Colombia they change the configuration depending on the mission.
>>64715638>2 door gunners>twin vulcan or .50 bmg cannons>up to 16 hellfires>hydras too>can carry a small squadIs the blackhawk a gunship or an attack helicopter?
>>64721271>>64721287Makes sense, I suppose I never really considered operating costs as being that high up the list of priorities on the US shopping list when they already have a massive fleet of dedicated attack choppers.Having it organic to SOAR and without significant training or support burden over their other choppers makes a lot of sense though. Less as cost saving and more as deployment streamlining.
>>64715638>Where's everyone that claimed that attack helicopters and air assaults were obsolete now?Russia already disproved both in the SMOVDV were able to successfully enter Kiev after landing at Gostomel before retreating and linking up with the main force. At their maximum penetration in the city they were only a few blocks away from the presidential residence. Russian attack helicopters especially KA-52's completely curb-stomped the AFU counteroffensive in Zaporizhia in 2023 and that was when Ukraine's AA was way more extensive than right now. I remember watching videos of KA-52's using night vision to pop up over a treeline from several miles away and then take out rows of AFU tanks and IFVs/APCs one after another like shooting ducks in a barrel. Dem Alligators were eatin' good.Anyways, with regard to the Venezuela operation, it only works because the US bribed a large portion of the military command to stand down. Venezuela has around 5,000 MANPADS and didnt use a single one, this could only have happened with the complicity of military officers. They obviously couldn't bribe the Cuban security though so they had to take them out.
>>64721374Hello, Nohair Copelord. What brings you to 4chan? Not enough attention on twitter?
>>64721374>I remember watching videos of KA-52's using night vision to pop up over a treeline from several miles away and then take out rows of AFU tanks and IFVs/APCs one after another like shooting ducks in a barrel.post it here. i have been watching ukraine war videos daily since the start of the war and ive never seen what you describe. the sapporishia counter offensive was stopped by mines mostly, that is on video.
>>64721405Not him, I have a full head of hair and looksmog 95% of /k/ posters, everything there I said win that post was objectively true
>>64721374>Venezuela has around 5,000 MANPADSsays who? could be 50 for all we know.
>>64721420>post it hereOkay, give me 5-10 minutes and I will find and post them here if I'm not banned first for posting objective facts that are directly related to the thread topic but which simply counter certain narratives.
>>64721421>skibidi mogmaxx unc ahh rizzunc
>>64721374>Venezuela has around 5,000 MANPADS and didnt use a single oneHow many of them were distributed to forces and ready to go? Did they have night vision systems or were they broken or sold to the black market ages ago? Did they have motivated and skilled troops dispersed around the city on high alert? They were mostly caught with their pants down and whoever had them on was pummeled in SEAD.
>>64721420>post it here.A little after 40 seconds in this video a tank of IFV is taken out by KA-52 using thermals, the infamous "tractor" video occurs 10 seconds after but is a different video shot in a different location.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM6YHZFH3CsIn this video, also around 40 seconds in but in a totally different video and location, a KA-52 takes out what is clearly a tank that has infantry running past it using its thermal visionhttps://xcancel.com/Trollstoy88/status/1684922930306678784#mThis shows a likely KA-52 using a kornet to take out an AFU leopard from afar, with massive secondary explosions afterwardshttps://x.com/squatsons/status/1667195680517914624All of these videos are from the summer of 2023.and lastly, we have the grand finale:https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/anatomy-of-a-nato-planned-trained?utm_source=publication-searchIf you scroll down past the top of the article, you will find 2 videos taken by KA-52's during the 2023 counteroffensive.In the first video, there is a conga line (pic related) of at least 10 AFU armored vehicles, and we see the helicopter launch a missile and directly lands and blows up a vehicle that is 3rd or 4th in line, the video ends after 1 hit In the second video, we see around 5 or 6 AFU armored vehicles in a line, but we multiple different hits with missiles launched from the helicopter
>>64721374>>64721529>zigger inserts himself into a genuine threadIP ban everything east of the dnieper hiroshimoot
>>64721496>How many of them were distributed to forces and ready to go? Who knows, but the idea that all of them would be in storage and not ready to go when they have a US fleet parked off the coast and threats to bomb the country is completely absurd.>Did they have night vision systems or were they broken or sold to the black market ages ago? There is enough ambient light in Caracas that the helicopters can easily be seen with the naked eye, this is clear in all the videos. Furthermore in the videos we have they are fairly flying low to the ground like they are not even concerned about potential AA
>>64721540>IP ban everything east of the dnieper hiroshimootI'm American, just spittin cold hard facts.
>>64721562It's also absurd to dance on a stage while the US amasses military assets nearby and threatens you, thus Maduro was the rat himself!
>>64715742General AI is decades, if not centuries away. It might not even be possible. The "AI" we have now isn't even worth the name. It's like calling the balloon bombs the Austrians used in the 1840s drones.
>>64719287>Wonder why Russia didn’t think to do their invasion at night.Nighttime raids are generally avoided unless a military is obsessed with training at night and has a budget to compensate for all the injuries and deaths you incure from training at night
>>64721426NTA but it's been over an hours =\
>>64721762never saw >>64721529you should really link your posts John Smыth from Ohio Oblast
>>64715642>would had been able to repelledOK.
>>64721275>watching gunships fuck shit up overheadThat show is worth the risk.
>>64721769>you should really link your posts John Smыth from Ohio OblastThanks for the advice comrade, I'll do that next time
>>64721529>How can Ukraine handle this Attack HelicopterPretty easily given that they're borderline extinct
>>64721567Sure you are Rajes-- I mean John Johnovich of Ohio Oblast
>>64715638Same place you came from, /pol/troon.
>>64721861>Pretty easily given that they're borderline extinctEven if Oryx's numbers are taken at face-value, which is extremely dubious since they've been shown to use faulty methodology before, Russia would still have around 70 left, and they were already producing 15-20 KA-52s annually pre-war and are producing more than that right now.
>>64721889>Even if Oryx's numbers are taken at face-value, which is extremely dubious since they've been shown to use faulty methodology before
>>64721889Didn't they convert the factory that was making KA-52 engines to make T-80 engines?
>>64721889Oh no, it's retarded
>>64721943Helicopter Engines (VK‑2500 for Ka‑52)The VK‑2500 turboshaft engines that power the Ka‑52 attack helicopter are produced by Klimov / United Engine Corporation (ODK), mainly in Saint Petersburg (with broader UEC supply chain involvement). These are aviation turbine engines designed specifically for rotorcraft such as Ka‑52, Mi‑28 and others. Production of these engines has been ramped up significantly to meet military demand, with hundreds of units reportedly manufactured in 2024 alone under expanded domestic capability. T‑80 Tank Engines (GTD‑1000 / GTD‑1250)Gas turbine engines for the T‑80 family of tanks (e.g., GTD‑1000, GTD‑1250) are totally different from the VK‑2500 helicopter engines. These are ground‑vehicle turbine powerplants optimized for tracked armored vehicles. In recent years, Russia resumed production of these tank gas turbines at a separate facility — notably the Kaluga Turbine Plant (often referred to as “Kaluzhsky engine plant”), which restarted manufacturing of GTD‑1250 tank turbines to support T‑80BVM production. Different Factories / ProgramsVK‑2500 helicopter engines come from Klimov/ODK production lines focused on aero‑engines (aero turbine designs and assembly lines) — not tank turbine production. RostecTank gas turbines for T‑80s are being made (or restarted) at the Kaluga plant, which historically produced turbines for tanks and has resumed that work.
>>64719823>t. not a chink, but you will call me one anywayThe trolls, shills, counter-trolls and jannies all seem to be taking a day or two off.
>>64720344>Too bad Venezuela didn't have a single boy with rocket launcher or droneYou remember that rain of rockets and MGs?There's another angle, it was a response to a missed MANPAD.Or it's a psyop to conceal a warcrime, go figure.
>>64717435It's the usual third world cope about how [effective equipment that they're too broke to afford] will be effortlessly defeated by [less effective equipment that they're still too broke to use optimally] because in their hopes and dreams something being cheap means logistics and general causality no longer apply so they can just teleport thousands of them on top of western forces without having to spend any more money (that they don't have lol) on actually getting them there. Then their shit equipment gets effortlessly stomped by F-35s and they get really mad and talk about how it didn't actually happen and the western forces actually got obliterated, look at this totally real picture of a football field sized F-35 that they shot down, and even if they didn't shoot any down it still doesn't count because the west cheated somehow and they'll totally get btfo next time.
>>64722274This. It's the "real communism hasn't been tried" of military analysis
>>64722274>it doesn't matter if we lose some equipment its designed to be replaceable >What about the crews and pilots?>...they're expendable too....>>64721950>production ramped upIs this part of the banks being forced to give loans to MIC who are then made to produce equipment at below cost and now multiple sectors are heading towards bankruptcy and are already lowing output and laying off staff
>>64722274The F-35 in particular has to really piss them off. It's a fifth gen club with ten current members and nine more on the waiting list and they're not invited, with 1,200 of the things in the air and counting.Must honestly be kind of terrifying if you're not in the club or friends with the people in the club.
>>64722401Nah, F35 as a topic of complaint is more complicated. The thirdy seething shares some of the longstanding criticisms of western military peeps, especially from other branches.If you talk about any of them here, you get dogpiled by halfwits who strawman you until you give up, but it doesn't mean the Air Force replacing all of their attack aircraft with a supersonic strike fighter with a low mission availability rate and troubled development that's expensive to main and spending decades refusing to fund development of anything that's actually useful for close support to troops in contact at the literal same time as drones hit mainstream isn't just the Air Force finally reverting to the kinds of pre-Vietnam SAC autism that fuck actual troops over once the balloon goes up.
>>64722476>expensive to mainmaintain*Anyway, point is, the ultra F35 seethe you perceive from thirdies is partially actual westerners who know better than you but have different priorities. We were seething about all of the eggs going in the F35 basket before thirdies even had the internet.
>>64715638MANPADs killed a lot of helis in Ukraine. That's it. That's the sum total of their evidence.
>>64721950Thank you, ChatGPT.
>>64717277In fairness, that's probably not wrong.The more resources they have, the more accurate a model can be, nevermind the near constant updates.It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be better than us.Having dealt with the general public for an extended period, I can assure you that it already is in many cases. Most people are unbelievably retarded.
>>64715638Because they were fighting a force that was using 30-40 year old tech.
>>64720347That thing looks like it came straight out of Advance Wars.I can hear the title screen music in my head just gazing at the picture.
>>64721310>vulcanThey carry M134 miniguns. The Vulcan is what is carried on something like the F-16 or F-18.
>>64715638I still maintain these would've been fucked up by FPVs and Stingers had the Venezuelans had them and used them in number.
>>64722554>implying any of these shot-in-the-dark, throw-shit-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks general algorithms and optimizations will get us anywhere near the neural density needed for even 1 human midwitThey have promised more than they can deliver. It's excellent for some coding/other tasks, but is not going to recoup the trillion in investment.
>>64717538You can't do SEAD/DEAD when every person on the ground can have a MANPADS or a drone that can kill your helo
>>64722401It's unclear to me what role the F-35 did play and how essential was its stealth to the outcome, and if it didn't exist, it couldn't have been substituted with something else
>>64722262I can't tell if that's parodying that EW annotated pic or genuinely showing all the individual sensors and doodads that a modern combat aircraft has.
>>64722699I see you have never interacted with genpop for any length of time.The situation is far more grim than you could ever imagine.Picture the dumbest person you've ever met.Most people are about 3 to 4 times dumber.Even fucking Copilot is more intelligent.
>>64722664FPVs possibly, manpads no. One they all had active dazzlers but also everyone that opened fire from the ground got raked with rocket and minigun fire in literal secondsFPV drones would be a lot more tricky. But the orbiting sensors are probably still accurate enough to pick off people launching them.
>>64721529>>64721861They were doing well until Ukraine hit the airbase they were parking them at, now they can't operate close enough to the front to matter and Ukraine hasn't tried massing that much armor anyway.
>>64722773They only massed attack helicopters when Ukraine was also massing armor. When they needed to they were doing farps and shit. Yes it's much less efficient but they still did it.ATACMS lowered the efficiency but did not neutralize. They dispersed them also because they aren't needed massed anymore.
>>64722773>>64722781sorry I see you mentioned that Ukraine isn't massing armor anymore :)
>>64722783That's because they don't have sufficient breaching equipment. The attack helicopters could be countered during exploitation, but they can't get through the obstacles anyway so it's all a moot point.
>>64722822The scary part is they had more breaching equipment per brigade than actual U.S Army units would have, and it was clearly not enough. Having obvious single point of failure targets that destroy your whole operation seems troubling. Every MBT should be capable of clearing a path, maybe every MBT and IFV
>>64722829>brigadeOpposed breach is not a brigade activity. The density in brigades is not that relevant when you're talking about an acitivity that can't be achieved without multiple brigades and division troops. The failure to achieve a breach was at least partially due to failing to achieve the mass, synchronisation or orchestration necessary. What we saw was penny packetted AFVs feeling around for breach sites, without very much in the way of support. Charitably they wanted to reinforce success and mask their main effort, but realistically they had never had main effort and arguably the commanders at operational levels didn't understand what a main effort was. Basically, it looked like a parody based on what a soviet trained officer thought western combined arms doctrine was, because that's literally what it was: Ancient and soviet trained senior officers given western equipment and told to do some western combined arms, with plenty of subordinates trying to warn them they had no clue what they were doing.I'm not saying combined arms breaching is easy or western militaties have enough or good enough breaching equipment, doctrine or training, but what happened in the Ukraine shouldn't have.
>>64722476Nah, there's a big difference between 'I think the USAF should adopt a different aircraft mix/procurement strategy/this long and complex project had issues' and someone that's just swallowed every single piece of reformer and RT pushed bullshit about the program. The kind of person that will insist the only form of CAS is the kind that requires low-and-slow ten inches off the deck.I understand not everyone makes that distinction but there's a lot of people just generally seething about an affordable stealth multirole radically changing the value of their own assets, those are the ones I'm referring to.>>64722715True, I suppose I'm talking beyond just this context.
>>64722829Well they were trying to breach one of the largest/densest minefields in history.
>>64723012>The kind of person that will insist the only form of CAS is the kind that requires low-and-slow ten inches off the deck.That's not reformer bullshit though. That's the mainstream land combatant position and has been since the start of air power. You have to be going low and slow to understand and participate in the ground fight, as opposed to transiently glance at it and blow a part of the ground it was happening on up then fuck off. Even detached observing at length with a pod then striking isn't the same as getting a good look at it, talking to the people fighting, and rolling in a few times on it with different geometries and different effectors while watching how it evolves the fight and adjusting. The air force has always wanted, promised that it was possible and then failed to deliver, ears won with no involvement in actually fighting - won by strikes with no dynamic and continuous contest of will. The F35 is just the latest iteration of the institutional failure mode that we've seen manifest before in the B29, the B36 and the F10x series before a war happens and forces congress to shitkick the air force into doing hard and messy war like everyone told them they'd need to for years ahead of time.Not going low and slow isn't an option if you want to win the real wars that people really fight the battles of on the ground, because humans don't live or form their beliefs in the clouds. The air force will give excuses for why they can't and shouldn't, but they've done it all before many times and been wrong every time, so it would have been nice if we got to skip the delusion phase and forcr the air force to spend some fucking money on innovative CAS concepts, but it seems we were willing to believe the obvious "CAS is a mission not a type of aircraft lie" for now.
>>64723197This is so retarded. The only reason to be that low to the ground is survivability. An a-10 pilot is not seeing shit compared to an WSO who is staring through a sniper pod with a compass on screen and a grid read out for any point he look at instantly, as well as seeing friendly laser designations and IR flashers on the screen and even a fucking digital battle management system if he wants
>>64721374>I remember watching videos of KA-52's using night vision to pop up over a treeline from several miles away and then take out rows of AFU tanks and IFVs/APCs one after another like shooting ducks in a barrel. Dem Alligators were eatin' good.I heard Russia mostly just shot combines and tractors
>>64717177If it was a set up maduros security detail would still be aliveThey killed the AA when they went in, America is a SEAD/DEAD specialist
>>64723280We're getting crossed wires on what we each mean by low and slow. I don't mean penetration nap of the earth flying, but I do mean doing things at a few thousand feet, inside AAA and manpad range. F35 literally can't even stay close enough to a fight for most infantry radios to stay in contact, which of course the air force says is fine because there'll always be a JTAC with specialised equipment where troops are most in need of air support.
>>64721529>https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/anatomy-of-a-nato-planned-trained?utm_source=publication-search>>64721374
>>64723197What is this Newtype bullshit anon. Jesus christ.>>64723332If you mean a dedicated COIN aircraft then sure, that's probably not a bad idea. That's also much more to do with Congress than the USAF not wanting one.I'm not really sure what you mean by 'can't stay close enough'. If you mean durability, durability for a modern airframe against reasonable incoming fire is just not how it works. 'Chilling inside AAA range' is how to get shot down. You can't just say 'yeah but they should be'. It'd be ideal if we could just stab enemies instead of having to waste bullets on shooting them too, but you're not going to get many of the enemy dead that way. In fact, you're going to be dead before you get to kill anyone that way.
>>64715704Seem to recall the mariupol helicopters being killed later into that, and the Russian helo's were sitting at max range against an attacking force that had little anti air coverage.The problem with helicopters is they've been supplanted by more efficient assets, it's not that they are useless.
>>64716256SNEAD/FEAD/SEAD
>>64717527Japs have a point, attack helos are more of a "nice to have" thing than a "need to have thing" for them and they can likely generate more combat power overall by focusing their limited resources elsewhere
>>64723360I don't mean a COIN aircraft. You can do all of what I'm describing with lower cost unmanned systems puppeteered by JSF or AWACS. But of course, USAF only wants fast as fuck LO loyal wingmen to do penetration and strike with. That's the institutional fucktardery I mean.PS. Those COIN aircraft are a rort. They're more expensive on a unit basis than A10s, with a fraction of the capability.
>>64719287not enough NV and other sensors
>>64723379> They're more expensive on a unit basis than A10sAre you forgetting to take inflation into account, or thinking of a seriously expensive example?I'd also just point out that there's no A-10 factories left anyway.
>>64723323The KA-52s did legitimately good work fighting off the Ukrainian 2023 counter-offensive. Ukrainian forces had to push through a thick static defensive line without proper support via air strikes and long range missile strikes. This was an ideal situation for attack helicopters, which could fly from bases that are *just* out of convenient striking range and move right up to a relatively static defensive line, and then engage armoured forces while once again remaining barely out of retaliation range of anti-air threats which can engage pop-up targets. You might remember the transfer of ATACMS shortly after that counteroffensive being a rather bittersweet moment, because those missiles were exactly the sort of tool Ukraine needed a couple of months earlier to be able to destroy those defensively positioned KA-52s on the ground and prevent them from intervening in the counteroffensive.This performance has not been matched before or since. In other offensives/counteroffensives, Russian helos have had numerous instances of engaging friendly troops, shooting at random shit like tractors, and being lost in considerable numbers. These all stem from the same core challenge - if the attack helicopter doesn't know where the frontlines are because the situation is too messy and fluid, it is very easy to either misidentify friendlies or civilians as enemy troops, and it is also easy to fly a little too close to the frontline and get smacked by MANPADS or ATGMs that the attack helicopter only barely outranges in ideal circumstances. The 2023 counteroffensive was unique in the way it played to the helicopter's strengths by being a slow, poorly supported grinding action against a static defensive line.
>>64723399No, I'm.accounting for inflation (or I was when I did the sums a few years ago, it's been a hot minute). I'm not saying we should build A10s, I'm saying that the offerings of COIN aircraft that we've seen are extremely bad value for money, so bad that they seem conspicuously close to rort territory.
>>64723417I haven't reviewed specific offers to the USAF recently so I'll take your word on that.So what are you actually asking for here, anyway? Like do you have an example of platforms you think would fill this niche?
>>64723451I'm thinking of USAF forking for a big development program to design it, but a plausibly something like a stand in drone and very cheap air deployable FPV munitions.
>>64721731LLM's aren't even AI because they are not intelligent in any meaningful sense They can't apply logic to novel situations, they don't actually understand anything, that's why they can't count or play chess
>>64723498Honestly that sounds to me more like the Army's wheelhouse.I also don't think that this idea quite justifies that level of fury in the F-35 being used as a CAS bomb truck.
>>64716126Ask the Panamanians how that went.
>>64723417Super Tucano cost somewhere between 10 and 20 million each, depending on which contract you look at. The base model A10 costs about 20 million after adjusting for inflation, and that is the version where the pilot had to look out of the cockpit with fucking binoculars to spot targets. The cost of an A10C is much harder to figure out because the A10s received iterative upgrades and no airframes were built to that standard from scratch, but likely adds up to around another 5-10 million after inflation. Overall, you are comparing a two seater turboprop to a single seat turbofan that costs about twice as much per airframe and also costs 4-6x as much per flight hour. Even if the A10 has more capability*, it still has multiple times the lifetime cost and is thus not really comparable to a relatively cheap niche aircraft.*this is very debatable - having an extra seat is a big deal. The A10 is such a friendly fire machine partly because it tries to do CAS while only having a single seat unlike attack helos and (most?) COIN aircraft.
>>64716238The Raptor is never gonna get a real air-to-air kill and I cannot get over the injustice of it all. Far more of a travesty than all those cool Century Series designs and other second and third gen fighters that saw little to no action, because they were all obsolete or phased out in a few years.
>>64723507>sounds like Army's wheelhouseFuck no.A fixed wing unmanned close air support repeater drone designed to be deployed from airstrips and operated by someone in a high flying, fast and stealthy or far back dedicated AEWCC aircraft? Will air force give up stealth aircraft and AWACS just to avoid also having to do CAS?That air deploys loitering precision munitions, possibly swarms of them?Air Force has always wanted its role to be exclusively high and fast, and now stealthy, and anything not that it wants someone else to pay for. The Air Force should be told to get fucked.
>>64721251Personally, I think the 160th pilots have a bias for the birds they use for transport, since the flight profile is probably similar and it almost certainly makes maintenance in far away places easier. Recall that their first dedicated fire support platforms were Little Birds with pylons.The only question is, when do we get the AH-47?
>>64716226Whao... everything stfu after that rocket barrage..
>>64716238Even if the pilots wanna take off, you can't see shit when power and comms are off.You can't see the runways
>>64723531Anon I think you might have a certain degree of anger towards the USAF outside the scope of this discussion.
>>64715638They are, the wect just hasn't opened it's eyes yet. They could've just strapped Maduro to 6 drones for 60 bucks off alibaba, but instead they wasted millions on some obsolete helicopters.
>>64715688Retarded slavs and retarded americans to be fair
>>64723546>Anon I think you might have a certain degree of anger towards the USAFYes.>outside the scope of this discussionNo. Through playing the political game, again, they've successfully gotten away with abandoning the CAS mission, again. Young men will die pointlessly because of it, again. That's worth getting angry about, again.
>>64723640Anon they've only given it up because you've defined it as a 'dynamic and continuous contest of will' and something that can only be done close because 'humans don't live or form their beliefs in the clouds'.You've defined yourself into a problem then gotten mad about it. They still want to, and do, provide CAS. You just disagree over the doctrine with which they would employ it.You seem to think Vietnam is the only war they've fought between WW2 and now. It's worth noting the Navy agrees here, their F-35Cs and Super Hornets are intended to be their CAS platforms until their new projects are finally funded properly. The USMC too, with their F-35Bs. In fact half the issues of the program came from what the Marines wanted.Most other developed nations seem to agree that you're not on the money for that matter.
>>64723502The brain is a complex LLM.You don't need "thoughts", prediction algoritms work just as well as neurons, all it'll take is time to adapt these systems together and cull them efficiently to do the tasks we need them to do.It will take a lot of RND and training, as well as adaption and integration of multiple layers and feedback loops just like the brain, but the reality is there isn't all that much difference, since most of the brain is just variable electrical potential prediction algorithms in a quantum like lattice network.Do not underestimate "stupid" intellegence when layered, it can already "reason" better than most humans, the learning adaptions to create accurate models is refining itself every year and the information gatheres for LLMs will stop coming from the internet and start coming from accurate unformation databases instead as misinformation gets weeded out and flagged.The only losers to the AI replication crises are new players to the market that didn't copy the entire internet already and don't have the resources to build up and then curate an accurate world to grow its new llm children.
>>64723670That's not how LLMs work man, they're random number generators, literally incapable of evaluating whether something would work or not. True AI is down the agentic neuro-synthetic reasoning route, everyone with a brain has already realized that LLMs are a dead end only useful for spamming retard posts on the internet.
>>64723413ukraine failed nato-training lesson #1>when encountering a minefield, drive *around* the minefield, NOT *through*
>>64722909Not him but I have no idea any of this shit works and I’d really like to know what a proper breach would be like and what Ukraine did wrong.
>>64723655>Anon they've only given it up because you've defined it as a 'dynamic and continuous contest of will' and something that can only be done close because 'humans don't live or form their beliefs in the clouds'.>You've defined yourself into a problem then gotten mad about it.How dare we use the accepted definition of war.
>>64723804>The accepted definition of warBy fucking who?And we're not talking about the broad concept of war anyway, we're talking about a specific role and task within it. And if we're rolling with a definition that broad you can absolutely make any task fit within it. Digging a latrine is a dynamic and continuous contest of will against shit and the ground.
>>64715638they could have done it with clown cars that turn into speed boats with the amount of planning and resources sunk into the operation
>>64722822breaching equipment is useless when you cannot do any massing for a breach. >>64723728the tactic is outdated and doesnt work on the modern battlefield. massing gets you droned, so you drive around in a civilian car to avoid drawing attention until it gets so shredded by random shrapnel that it doesnt work anymore. whoever gets baited into giving the other side a juicier target than that loses, but they lose very slowly
>>64723682They're not really random number generators. More accurately, they're sophisticated statistical prediction models. The machine sees, for lack of a better term, "a-m-m-u-n-i-t-i-o" and determines that, chances are the next letter is "n." This is the root cause of hallucinations; the machine is just predicting what word comes after the last word it wrote, it's not actually pulling any information from anywhere. That's why LLMs are at their peak right now doing things like synthesizing extensive data sets that you input into them, and not at giving you a schedule that sorts your personality and preferences (despite what ChatGPT may try to sell you while you watch football).
>>64717279"If the VP is such a VIP, maybe we should keep the PC on the QT, or else the VC will make him MIA... and we'll all wind up on KP."
>>64723804CAS means that friendly troops are in contact, not that the aircraft in question has to be close enough to look out the window and see the whites of the enemies' eyes. APKWS is superior to BRRRRT in most scenarios.
>>64717217>>64719253You're all talking to some schizo that showed up here in like 2022 or 2023 to spam some very ESL swearing-filled posts on politically relevant threads. He mostly shows up on the Ukraine threads.
>>64717184Actually Venezuela has a a lot of hills.
>>64722703How come then SEAD/DEAD is done sucessfully in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, Venezuela then?Let me guess, the places full of MANPADS and with access to drones didn't have enough of them?
>>64719817How come they're useful in Ukraine
>>64720267>>64720273>2Nobody asked.
>>64726032do i need to spell it out?
>>64725787>You're all talking to some schizo that showed up here in like 2022 or 2023 to spam some very ESL swearing-filled posts on politically relevant threads. He mostly shows up on the Ukraine threads.Figures. Got a desu-bestof for them?
>>64726193No but I think anon would giggle a little if you did it just for them.
>>64721731>General AI is decades, if not centuries away.A decade or two away at max. The only way we won't have it is if literally everyone is retarded and keeps trying to make it come to pass on hardware that was never designed to do what they are trying to do with it.
>it's a 'the worlds most well funded army dunks on a piss-poor shithole and can't stop bragging about it'-episode againbored_pepe.png
>>64726244You're not wrong but for now it's kind of a refreshing change from the marathon of "world's most overrated, hyped, corrupt paper tiger fails to outpace a literal snail while suffering losses that would give Zhukov pause" episodes we've been enduring like some internet equivalent of Bakhmut.
>>64726244
>>64715638It was a spec ops and not a full military assault. Choppers have their uses as a flying battle taxis but attack choppers are obsolete vs drones in terms of cost and potential loss of human pilots. You are just being obtuse.
>>64723877>By fucking who?>He doesn't know.
>>64721374bagshitter has discovered AI
>>64727295What you dimwits fail to understand is that drones are utter garbage against first-world electronic warfare. The ragheads would have been putting them up IDF headquarter's ass years ago if they worked against anybody but fucking asiatic cavemen.
>>64728428surely it's not the terrain that makes the fairly short range drone strikes viable or not
>>64723604Bad time for this one, commie.
Communism will win, you chuds are just fighting against the tide while the water continues to rise. Viva la revolutcion, death to the oppressors, colonists, and capitalists.
>>64727295>attack choppers are obsolete vs drones in terms of costCost doesn't matter*, capability does. By the time you've slapped enough shit on a drone for it to accomplish all the missions an attack helicopter can you will have just made an unmanned attack helicopter, and now it's no longer cheap and disposable. *I mean of course it does but trying to compare only the sticker prices for two different weapon systems procured and used by two different countries is fucking retarded and meaningless when the value of having shit actually work in a life or death combat situation is nearly priceless. If russia had spent a fuckload more money up front making sure all their people and equipment were properly trained and squared away with the best shit they could buy then the invasion of ukraine would have been a lot less expensive for them.
>>64715638they remain obsolete they're only useful for sneaky shit against very stupid peoplemuch like many other naruto weapons such as kunai and nunchaku
>>64716226>imagine dying for maduroimagine killing for trump
>>64733071I kill for fun
>>64733084get ready for a funny death then
>>64733071Sounds based, love our awesome president.
>>64733094You won't do shit, thirdie.
>>64716166Raptor will retire without a single kill, accept it anon
>>64716238>When you clock it's the USAF and USN instead of some regional bullshit do you really want to be the one guy who actually sorties?I would not even want to get close enough to fuel it. Refuel truck with a hot engine next to a fighter? No way.
>>64715638It’s easy when all of your military is told to stand down. And everybody in your high command is paid off by the CIA.Laser warning and dircm on the helos help too
>>64716908You may be correct in the theoretical sense, but with no money it does require a higher caliber of people
>>64722703>or a drone that can kill your heloThe only drones that can do that are large multi-million dollar attack craft that at best can achieve parity with ill-maintained Russian gunships. Pound per pound, drones are absolute shit at Air-to-Air, and the vast majority of attempts to shoot down helos with them, even in Ukraine ended up with the chopper on top.
>>64717359NATO is the closest thing. Same equipment, same training.Never thought they would be viewed as an adversary though.
>>64737986alert fighers are already fueled and ready to scramble
>>64716238>When you clock it's the USAF and USN instead of some regional bullshit do you really want to be the one guy who actually sorties?but it wasn't usaf and usn. it was mostly guard and marines.
