>The autonomy of the Marine Corps, the independence of their operations, must be subordinated to the overriding needs of the integrity of the Fleet and the primacy of purpose of a unified Naval Command.What did he mean by this?
>The Air Force is obsessed with the 'glamour' of strategic bombing. They want to fly over the problem rather than solve it. But while they are off chasing clouds, the U-boat is at our throat. Doctrine is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of life and death. If the Air Force refuses to subordinate their flight paths to the Navy’s anti-submarine requirements, they are not an independent service—they are a rogue element. In a storm, you do not have three captains; you have one. And that captain must be the NavyWhat was his problem guys?
>>64741448>What did he mean by this?Sailors have more worthwhile shit to do than take pot-shots at browns.
>The Air Force commanders in Washington are obsessed with the 'grandeur' of the high-altitude bomber. They want to be the ones to turn the lights out in Berlin, while they leave the lights off in London because the tankers are at the bottom of the Atlantic. Doctrine is not a menu from which you can choose your favorite dish. The sky over the ocean belongs to the Fleet. If the Air Force cannot learn to hunt the submarine under Naval command, then we shall lose the war.>Air power is a maritime utility, not a strategic religion.>If you fly over my ocean, you follow my doctrine. I have no use for 'independent' pilots who cannot find a U-boat>In war, three captains is two too many. The Navy will hold the wheel.What a nutjob!
>>64741448>The American Navy should be in charge of the whole war>it's purely coincidental that I am in charge of the American Navy>and that this would mean I am in charge of the whole war
>>64741467He didnt say anything about the army
>>64741474Yes he did.>The Navy has no use for the Army’s 'strategic' theories when our ships are being sunk in sight of our own coastHe was hated by everyone>"One thing that might help win this war is to get someone to shoot King. He's the antithesis of cooperation." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
Based retard. "I am responsible for X, therefore X is the most important thing in the world"
>>64741497just everyday office politics, anonit's only kinda fucked up in this case because the fate of millions of lives is hanging in the balance, instead of whatever consumerist slop the average company shills
>>64741511Kek this guy is the model office worker>In January 1941 King issued Atlantic Fleet directive CINCLANT Serial 053, encouraging officers to delegate and avoid micromanagement, which is still cited widely in today's armed forces.[84][85] The Patrol Force was designated the Atlantic Fleet on 1 February 1941. King was promoted to admiral and became the Commander in Chief, Atlantic Fleet (CINCLANT)Does nothing, gets promoted.
>"tough as nails and carried himself as stiffly as a poker. He was blunt and stand-offish, almost to the point of rudeness. At the start, he was intolerant and suspicious of all things British, especially the Royal Navy; but he was almost equally intolerant and suspicious of the American Army. War against Japan was the problem to which he had devoted the study of a lifetime, and he resented the idea of American resources being used for any other purpose than to destroy the Japanese. He mistrusted Churchill's powers of advocacy, and was apprehensive that he would wheedle President Roosevelt into neglecting the war in the Pacific"He hates the japs, simple as.
>>64741522>Does nothing, gets promotedwas the average American officer experience, anon, it's not like they actually did much in WW1at least it's not like General George fucking>gets promoted for breaking the rules in a wargamePattonhey maybe that's the real reason why Van Riper got so butthurt; he thought he was going to be Patton 2.0 and got laughed at for being a sore loser instead
>>64741525Van Riper was already retired by the time of that excersise.
>>64741531probably expected to be made General Emeritus i.e. be taken on as a "consultant" by the Pentagon for mucho dinero
>>64741525Van was a retard who launched missiles heavier than the rubber dinghies they were mounted on.
>>64741482When you try to strong arm everyone into doing what you say because you're unable to cooperate like a human being you lose wowzer
>>64741535and Patton broke the rules which is like driving his tanks through the Baltic Sea in order to take Berlin
>>64741448The Marine Corps was not allowed to become a completely independent service branch. There is no Secretary of the Marine Corps. The Secretary of the Navy also includes the US Marine Corps. During WW2 the Marines were always under the command of a Marine general, who reported to an admiral. In other words, the US Navy never wanted the Marines to say no to any of the Navy's ideas.Throughout WW2, the USMC was used to capture forward operating bases mostly for the Navy, but also for the US Army. If you look at the US Military branches with their own secretaries, then you will only find 3: Secretary of the Army, Secretary of the Navy and Secretary of the Air Force. Some smart ass will say these are the only real US Military branches. As written above, the US Marines are part of the Secretary of the Navy's responsibility. The US Space Force is part of the Secretary of the Air Force's responsibilities. With the implementation of the Combatant Command, a USMC 4 star General can be a commander of a combatant command, which reports directly to the Secretary of Defense/ War and the POTUS. The Combatant Command structure makes the chain of command a little more complicated for other reasons.
>>64741453>the chair force was bad at supporting the army and navy100% correct. The air force was banned from conducting close air support in Korea because they literally kept bombing US positions. Marines and navy did the CAS for the army and chair force wasted time strategically bombing the same section of railroad and wasting 90% of their fuel flying from Japan to MIG alley to spend 2 minutes at the Yalu before flying back.It took 20 years of GWOT to replace the air force generals with pilots that enjoyed ground support.Airforce priorities>combat air patrol on the exact mission as the last ten years that was scheduled sux months in advance >strategic bombing on a mission that was briefed more than 96 hours ago>flying an air tasking order that was requested 72 hours ago>flying CAS in an area for 4 hours on request that is 48 hours old>flying any mission with less than 24 hours notice>assisting the navy in any way
>>64741448>Navy thinks their needs are the most important and everyone else must bend over>Army thinks their needs are the most important and everyone else must bend over>Air Force thinks their needs are the most important and everyone else must bend overJust regular inter-service politics
Marines are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. They are obsolete. They are a bunch of crayon munching retards too stupid to be a sailor and too psychotic to be a soldier.
>>64741482All of the Service Branches hate each other, when budgets and responsibilities are given by civilian leadership. The pie must be split up in some way. If the Navy had its way, then the Army would be on life support and the Navy would get most of the money. If the Air Force had its way, then it would get most of the money, the Navy and Marine Corps would not have any aircraft. If the Army had its way, then the US Air Force never would have split from it. The US Army also bitterly hates the Marine Corps, so it would not exist at all.If the Marine Corps had it ways, then it would get more money and the other services would leave it alone.The greatest battle the US Marine Corps ever won is existing.
>>64741580The usmc needs to be disbanded to fully man the navy's ships. The contest between great powers is no long about worthless islets in the middle of the ocean, war will be fought in the air and sea, not on beaches of bumfuck nowhere.
>>64741585Cool story retard. Have a (you)
>>64741594seething marine. i cant wait for the corp to get gutted. youd be pan handling for money to buy fuel for your shitty humvees, that is until the army takes them from you
>>64741580>The greatest battle the US Marine Corps ever won is existing.The only reason that the USMC exists is because the army objected to shipboard living conditions as unfit for human life and suicidal missions as wasteful in men and equipment.
>>64741602Theres air conditioning on the ships now. no point having marines anymore.
Sorry if this sounds a tad Eurocentric, but objectively speaking, Marines ought to be a subordinate branch of the Army.They fight on land like every other infantry unit, it's just that they have the additional specialisation of knowing how to conduct an amphibious landing on hostile shores. Which is a very useful skill that needs to be retained and practised, but doesn't justify the existence of an entire separate service branch.That being said, it also doesn't make sense that the USMC gets to operate combat jet squadrons. Those should belong to the US Navy, it's just that the USMC is loathe to give up the budget bucks that should have gone towards buying carrier air wings. So we have to live with this polite fiction that these Marine-flagged fighter jet squadrons in these carrier wings are paid for by the Marines and function to support Marine operations, when in reality they are Navy for all practical purposes.Thirdly, in actuality, the US Navy already supports most US Marine operations. The US Navy has to shell out significant bucks for amphibious warships, their crews, and support functions (such as Navy corpsmen) that the USMC doesn't pay for, but only function to support the Marines. This is especially galling considering the above: the USMC insist on maintaining those fighter squadrons and accuse the Navy of "not supporting" the Marines, all while operating off Navy-funded warships.>bbbut what about their expeditionary worldwide-QRF statusThe Army has run those too, that's what light infantry does in the grand scheme of things.And it's not like the 82nd Airborne have their own service branch; or that CAS squadrons are paid for by the Army; or that the Army pays for the Air Force's airstrips, hangars, and squadron staff. So why does the USMC get to be the special snowflake in all these regards?
>>64741671You have a very strong point about marine aviation which should be a naval pilot speciality. However the part about marine ships is somewhat incorrect as they are the navy's ability to conduct amphibious operations.Your argument that marines should be army with amphibious and shipboard speciality could exist as an "air assault" or "airborne" equivalent, but the navy doesn't want to deal with requesting staffing through the army and you have a mixed budget where the army will be charged expenses from the navy and the army will request additional funding for those expenses and the additional marine missions. Then budget games get played where a service will request the increased funding for a mission then spend that funding on something else. The air force is legendary for promising to provide support, receiving that funding, and then reallocating those funds and not providing that support.Which is the real reason the marines are part of the navy
>>64741727if you think about it, there's also a real question why the Navy gets to run a parallel air force when in theory* the Air Force should have all the aircraft, and have dedicated carrier-borne wings. in theory*, the Air Force should know best how to fight a combat jet.>*that being said the fact that the US Navy's Top Gun programme solved the Vietnam problem before the US Air Force is a real indictment of this assumption, and arguably the raison d'etre of the US Air Force. back then anyway.>the navy doesn't want to deal with requesting staffing through the armymore like I don't trust the Navy to be experts in land combat operations anymore than I trust the Army to be submarine warfare experts. that's the reason why I wouldn't let the Navy control "their" infantry branch.>budget games get played where a service will request the increased funding for a mission then spend that funding on something elsetrue.all this is really about the best way to mitigate that.
>>64741727So if I got it right then a marines pilot is basically part of the airforce of the army of the navy of the us... So AFANUS
>>64741752Backwards.US Navy Army AirforceSo USNAAF
>>64741749>that's the reason why I wouldn't let the Navy control "their" infantry branchThe marines train a lot with the army to overcome thaf deficiency.
>>64741793>>64741752(Cont) in china everything falls under the army so you getPLA, PLAN, PLAAF, etc.
>>64741671>the USMC is loathe to give up the budget bucksYou have that backwards. The Navy didn't want to pay for all of the fighters they needed and so convinced the Marines to spend their money on it. They Tom Sawyered the jarheads.
>>64741671I was thinking something similar. Transfer them from the Navy to the Army, as such-and-such amphibious combat regiment. Let them have their own dress uniforms and stuff so they can feel special, the cavalry already do that anyway. But unify their command structure with the big army and force them to use army gear.I think it would greatly reduce the logistical and administrative overhead associated with them being a whole separate branchThe only problematic part would be MEUs, but that could be transformed into an inter-service operation, where the Navy provides ships and aircraft, while the army provides ground forces from the newly formed regimentsIs there a reason something like this couldn't work, the politics of it aside?
>>64741895>this couldn't work, the politics of it aside?It doesn't work because of dod adminstrative and budget politics. You would need to fire almost every flag officer and restructure the entire DoD as a single service.In the DOJ/DHS the US Marshals should be doing all of the actual arrests and ICE should be either TSA border security guards or FBI investigators. The ATF shouldn't exist at all and all their investigations done by the FBI and arrests done by marshals.
>>64741563Except he had a point. The US was fighting in two theaters separated by thousands of miles of ocean. If the Navy cannot get supplies across, neither the Airforce's nor the Army's need matter.
>>64741805What about PLAP? Is that a thing?
>>64741951Venezuela is showing the Navy's importance in protecting US shipping and disrupting enemy shipping. The Navy has been very important for the entire history of the US from the very start with the USN being basically pirate frigates. Going global with Jefferson killing Barbary pirates in Tripoli.There's a decent argument that the navy is more important than the army, especially after the native americans were fully suppressed in the 1890s.
>>64741671>My Ass Rides In Navy Equipment
>>64741951I wasn't necessarily saying that he didn't, only that everyone views their domain as the most important one, and the one that should be privileged over others, because that's the one they have insight into and the needs of which they understand
>>64741671Even in Europe the marines are part of the navy most of the time.
>Ernest King>spent half the war trying to be crowned king of the navywho wrote this shit
>>64742476It got a bit embarrassing when he got his own personal yacht and spent a particular boozy night leaning over the prow (with a lt holding him back) shouting "I'M THE KING OF THE WORLD", yes
>>64741895>that could be transformed into an inter-service operation, where the Navy provides ships and aircraft, while the army provides ground forces from the newly formed regimentssimilar to other joint task forces>Is there a reason something like this couldn't work, the politics of it aside?nope>>64742314the French and Italians use regular Army battalionsthe other nations have them under the Navy because they are tiny or because of tradition (Brits)
>>64742517how cute was the Lt however?
Marine air power is essential because the fewer intermediary steps in an org, the better. The USMC did pioneering work with vertical envelpment in the post-WW2 era. Combat in every war and police action since has demonstrated the efficiency of intergrated Marine air power and the seemingly-deliberate ineffectiveness of USAF support (exception granted for the Tweety and Warthog pilots who practiced NOT doing friendly fire). When the majority of the human species stops living within 200 miles of the wet stuff, then perhaps there could be a discussion about drawing down the Corps. Until that time we'll continue to see Marines deployed far inland because somehow the big, grand Army needs help doing everything.
>>64742314This is true, but in Europe marines are usually SOF more than anything else, and usually not more than maybe a brigade or two in size. Meanwhile the USA has army corps worth of marines. Who mostly dont do marine things and should just be in the army really.
The US Navy won WWII and everyone else just played a supporting role.
>>64741931The USA does have a ridiculous number of law enforcement agencies. DEA, ATF, FBI, Marshalls, ICE, I believe the secret service operates as the armed service of the IRS as well. Hell the pinkertons are still around, arent they?
The branches shouldn't be split into land, sea, and air at all. The fact that all branches have land, air, and sea assets is proof of that.Instead, the branches should be SOCOM, TACCOM, and STRATCOM, tasked with special operations, dunking on thirdies, and ending the world, respectively.
>>64741562Especially in WW2, like King was right. Naval aviation was built around tactical interdiction. So, combined strike and offensive counter air. That was just an obvious requirement due to the nature of carrier aviation and war at sea. The USAAC didn't have that kind of structural requirement so went all in on strategic bombing, which turned out to be useless in almost all cases except for, ironically, when it was used to support a purely naval operation by dropping sea mines. It took until like 1944 for the USAAC to switch to fighter sweeps, and start operating more similarly to the USN and the effects were immediate and decisive. As you point out though, they kept forgetting the lesson after each war, so repeated it in Korea and even Vietnam. Where USN alpha strikes off Yankee station going into RP-2, there was integrated MIG CAP up high while the intruders went in low, and skyhawks were suppressing AAA guns. Conversely the USAF especially early on would send the thuds in alone on preplanned routes with their MIG CAP held centrally away from Thud Ridge to react to VPAF scrambles instead of just sending everyone in together, which seems obvious to the USN point of view.
>>64742645Branches exist to deter coup d'état. See the failed USA-backed coup in Turkey where the Turkish Air Force was crushed by the Turkish Army.
>>64743126And how does the navy or air force stop the army from taking the capital?
>>64743135>And how does the navy stop the army from taking the capital?I'm guessing you have never heard of Trafalgar, or Salamis, or a billion other examples
>>64743061>Naval aviation was built around tactical interdiction. So, combined strike and offensive counter airwrong>which turned out to be useless in almost all caseswrong>It took until like 1944 for the USAAC to switch to fighter sweepswrongyou're basically wrong about what happened, what tactics were employed, why one worked and another didn't, and in fact you are wrong even about the nature of these tacticsfor example, WTF is "offensive counter air" in WW2 carrier combat terms? can you describe USAAC fighter tactics and USN fighter tactics and show the difference?>>64743172>the US Navy will stop the US Army from taking Washington D.C. because Trafalgarlollmao
Damning.https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2018/august/i-neglected-consult-president
>>64743126Okay, but why wouldn't a special operations force, an invasion force, and a nuclear force not be able to deter each other? It sure seems like each one would have a significant capability to inflict damage on the other two.
>>64741967can't pronounce the L so they have PAP instead
