how to beat mongols/horse nomads?Fortifications?focus on range?heavy cav?hold out until the current khan dies?
>>64765773Almogavars
>>64765773the only people who really beat the mongols on land are the mameluks of egypt, look at their soldiers and tactics
>>64765773become an even more evil stepnigger than them
in the steppe? you don't. you run in the opposite direction before you ever see them, and you keep running as fast and as far as you can. 12th and 13th century mongols weren't a conventional army, they were a force of nature. relentless, versatile, adaptive, utterly unstoppable.
>>64765773Fabian strategy.
>>64765773Invent muskets
>>64765773instead of 3 cities with million people you have 3k castles steppe niggers fear this simple trick!
Sink their ships in a storm.
>>64765773Pic.Alternatively, F1 + F3.
>>64765773All four of these are good ideas, with the last one being the most reliable. The thing about these guys is that they can pick and choose their battles because usually they're more pragmatic than their opponents (avoiding a battle isn't considered a bad thing) and have great mobility and light logistics. Actually beating them in a straight fight in a vacuum isn't a hard puzzle, just get missile troops protected by some other infantry and you're good. It's just that why would they ever get in a straight fight? It's engineering that situation which is the hard part, you have to attack somewhere where they feel obligated to defend. Hungarians talk a lot about how they defeated horse archers with the power of fortifications, but they were beating an army lead by a retard who decided attacking with a half-starved army in the middle of winter was a great idea.
>>64765804Except Austria, Poland, and Croatia had similar successes
>>64766186What about Vietnam and India?
>>64765773Wait for maritime trade dlc
>>64765773heavy infantry + heavy crossbowmen + kill horses
>>64766189True forgot about that
>>64765773Heavy cavalry wrecks horse archers.
When the Mongol reached the Holy Roman Empire and had a skirmish with proper Europeans Knights on the woods of central Europe in which the King of Bohemia cut them down, the mongols just noped back to the Russian plains because they didn't want none of that.
>>64765796what's with the tactical diaper? >>64766127basednigger>>64766155tsunaminigger>>64766241armornigger
>>64765830>in the steppe? you don't.This.There's a reason horse nomads dominated the steppes. And there's a reason sedentary peoples dominated the woodlands and mountains.
>>64766309>sedentaryThat word does not mean what you think it means.
>>64766336https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism#Historical_regions_of_sedentary_settlements???
>>64766189The Mongols sacked Vietnam's capital in Hanoi in 1258 before leaving.India was ruled by Turkic steppe nomads when the Mongols invaded.Mamluk Bahris were also Turkic steppe nomads in Egypt.
>>64766309>And there's a reason sedentary peoples dominated the woodlands and mountains.Uh, Mongols dominated those too. Why does some retard always gotta go "muh forest, muh mountain" as if the Mongols didn't conquer Tibet, Iran, Turkey, on and on. Steppe nomads dominated shithole Indian jungles, your forest doesn't do shit.
>>64766767Also like, the Aryans were steppe nomads. So were the Sakas who invaded India later. On and on. India has been gangbanged by steppe nomads ever since the horse was domesticated.
>>64766772For a short time. And then, the local cultures reasserted itself.
>>64766779>For a short time.The Turks still control Turkey last I checked. Are they local to Anatolia? The Mongols controlled Iran for 300 years, and Iranians only took back control because a guy leading a warband of Turkish crypto-Zoroastrian Shia mystics put them in power to prevent giving his warband too much power.
>>64765773By living in a a humid and forested/jungle environment that limit their mobility and which also makes their composite bows fucking useless, due to moisture dissolving the glue holding their bows together. See Central Europe and Vietnam.
>>64766801The turks stopped being horse nomads very soon after they invaded anatolia.
>>64766247>what's with the tactical diaper?Its for when he shits himself after seeing the horde of cavalry charging him.
>>64766848Ahhh right. Central Europe. Famously devoid of steppe nomads. Except of course being one of the first places the Indo-Europeans, the original steppe nomads and inventors of the composite bow, settled. And the Scythians, they were there for basically all of antiquity. Hell, the steppe nomad thing was so effective other people picked it up like the Goths and Vandals, came all the way from Sweden then as soon as they hit Central Europe they started picking up steppe nomad customs. Must have been a weather pattern shift at some point that drove all these people out, right? Oh, no, it was the Huns, a different group of steppe nomads. Then there were the Avars of course, and the Magyars oh wow they're still there, and the Cumans, and the Bolghars passed through at one point too.So, no, I think that's pretty much completely wrong and you're a retard, and picked the place in Europe that has been a hotbed of steppe nomads since steppe nomads first became a thing. Literally the oldest bodies with evidence of deformities associated with constant horseback riding come from central Europe. You could not be more wrong if you tried.>>64766869No they didn't. Said crypto-Zoroastrian Shia mystics were nomadic bands of Turks from Eastern Anatolia. That was 500 years after they began invading Anatolia. They were still living as nomads.
>>64765773>how to beat mongols/horse nomads?1-castles2-massed archers3-field artillery of the ancient type4-combined arms5-extremely mobile horse archer units of your own, more specialized than the mongols themselves as they would only exist to kill other horse archers. the most important thing was6-MAKING SURE YOUR TROOPS DO NOT START DOING IDIOCIES OR ANYTHING NOT ORDERED TO DO BECAUSE THEY ARE IMPATIENT OR THINK ITS A GOOD IDEA TO PURSE ON THEIR OWN. Most losses happened from things like this.
>>64767049>2-massed archersNo.
>>64766801>Turks still cthese are islamized and turkified locals and not mongols or central asian turks.
>>64767053they destroy horse archers
>>64767060No, they don't. That's why no one ever in all of history used them to counter horse archers.Videogames are not real life.
>>64765773>how to beat mongols/horse nomads?1st kill horses2nd make the fact they have arrows pointlessthink and resolve using these two things
>>64767063>history used them to counter horse archers.scythians etc others were defeated by persians with such units get your head out of your ass moron
>>64767069>1How>2HowMeanwhile in reality, the only answer that worked regularly was "use guns."
>>64767076...kill the horses.... make the fact the have arrows as their main weapon useless. The chinese had made some very thick shields to counter japanese firearms at a specific battle/campaign. Think and combine specific equipment with tactics.
>>64767063>all of history used them to counter horse archers.horse archer armies existed thousands of years before the mongols and were defeated just fine.
>>64765773Outranging them with heavier ranged fire is very possible, but you need to be from a culture already invested heavily into high draw bows or heavy slings. If the mongols cope by using flight arrows to eke out a little more range they won't be able to inflict significant casualties.Caltrops , pits, and stakes are the go to way to confound the movement of cavalry, and mongol cavalry will not be able to stand up to Western heavy cavalry so you can use that to control their movement.Past that it's down to specifics. General principles are fine but battles are more complicated.
>>64767075Ah yes, the Persian campaigns against the Scythians, where they uh.Oh right. Got Cyrus the Great killed? No that can't be it. You must when Darius marched into Scythia, never fought a single pitched battle because the Scythians just kept evading him and hitting with hit and run attacks, and then he went home after losing most of the army.So, what does that have to do with archers? Were the Persians using massed archery in these wars they lost? Is that what you want to imply or was it something else?>>64767082Ah yes, the Chinese. Who famously were so good at countering Steppe nomads, they were ruled by them constantly, and did not employ your tactics to successfully defeat them.You are a retard.
>>64767076>regularly was "use guns."that is just saying use a better missile weapon a single soldier can use than the enemy
>>64765773UhhhDo some saracen shit
>>64766189Vietnam and India lost hilariously to the Mongols, but like every loser culture they cope by saying if you didn't kill them down to the last child and choose to live forevermore in their shithole, you "lost"
>>64767097scythians lost many battles and many wars again all kinds of troop types>Chinese. Who fathat was an example of countering a specific weapon type donkey
>>64767087>horse archer armies existed thousands of years before the mongolsCorrect!>and were defeated just fine.Not really. They kinda regularly overran entire empires and major victories against them were usually extremely costly or done at the hands of once a century military geniuses, and not simply "uh just use archers or something it works in bannerlord">>64767100No, it's saying use guns. Because the horse archers have better bows than you do if you're not steppe nomads, so "use better missile weapons" isn't really available.
>>64767108So what you mean is you don't know how to counter horse archers, and the methods you have listed don't actually work. The method that did ultimately work was "pay the cossacks to use guns to shoot them all." That is what ended the steppe nomads. Not meme shields, not castles, not archers.
>>64767063Very few cultures actually went all in on bow-power. The trick to beating horse archers with foot archers is that no matter how good their bows are they have had to make compromises for drawing on horseback, and so if you're equally devoted to the bow and fighting on foot you have the luxury of a stronger bow with more range.
>>64766107haha this, slow march through the mongolian institutions and raising taxes and introducing all kind of nonsensical regulation on horse breeding
>>64767109>t's saying use guns.which is a better ranged weapon than a bow.>ot really. They kinda regularly overranthey lost all the time, and this includes fleeing. You all overestimate horse archer armies.
>>64767120>Very few cultures actually went all in on bow-power.That is because it's not very effective, except for skirmishing, which works best if you can quickly escape. Bonus points if you can act as light cavalry and take out light infantry at the same time, like horse archers!>so if you're equally devoted to the bow and fighting on foot you have the luxury of a stronger bow with more range.That is quite untrue. Turkic bow finds reveal they are every bit as high draw weight as "muh longbow," but even more powerful as recurve bows are more energy efficient. What this means is they outrange you, unless you're also using recurve composite bows, in which case they have the same range but are more mobile.
>>64765773>focus on range?IIRC, they didn't manage well against massed foot archers who had a bit more range and could carry mobile cover.The problem was their overall mobility, they came and went as they wanted, focusing and dispering when and where needed. It's realm of its own, outside "X vs. Y weapon" and THAT is where the problem was.
>>64767116you are mongoloid retard, not a mongol archer
>>64767138>which is a better ranged weapon than a bow.Correct. That's why it's not a bow. Just using a bow doesn't work.>they lost all the timeAnd won all the time.
>>64767143>they didn't manage well against massed foot archers who had a bit more range and could carry mobile cover.Can you name one battle ever where horse archers were defeated by massed foot archers?
>>64767162>>64767143And now I will explain why foot archers do not counter horse archers: For starters, foot archers do not outrange them. That's pretty big. The steppe nomads are usually more skilled with the bow and as a result capable of using a higher draw weight bow, and the one culture that fell into foot archer autism was the British, but they used longbows which are mechanically inferior and outranged by equal draw weight recurve bows. Second, foot archers have a very hard time carrying polearms to defend themselves, as they already have a bow and arrows to lug around, this makes them vulnerable to cavalry. Lastly, horse archers do not have to act as archers, and can simply charge the enemy archers, who are in many cases quite helpless in this scenario.The Romans and Alexander both managed to defeat steppe nomads. They did so through combined arms, using heavy infantry and cavalry along with early field artillery. This was a critical element often missing from later armies. This was not a sure win, the Seleucids who fought in the same manner as Alexander lost their empire to steppe nomads. The Western Romans more or less did as well, the Goths and Vandals took large swathes of the Empire, and were noted to have adopted aspects of Scythian nomadic culture, the Vandals were even joined by the Alans, Scythian nomads who were in a joint kingdom with the Vandals. (There's also the Huns, of course, who set the stage for all of this to happen in the first place). The Eastern Romans of course were ultimately defeated by the Turks, but had major problems dealing with the Avars and then Bolghars, who were also Turkic nomads.Until guns, there was no "do this to win," it was very difficult to defeat steppe nomads. The biggest problem isn't even the incredible effectiveness of horse archery, it was nomadism. It is very hard to force a nomadic force to commit to an unfavorable battle. They can just leave. You generally do not have the same convenience.
>>64765773Trees, hills, and fortifications
>>64767142There's more to bow range than draw weight and the upper end of turkish bows at the peak of their draw weight is not comparable to the mongol norm.
>>64767351>There's more to bow range than draw weight...yes, there's construction, I went over that and how it heavily favors the more efficient energy transfer of the recurve composite bow. Meaning, they're using the best bow available at the time, and non-horse archers probably aren't.>and the upper end of turkish bows at the peak of their draw weight is not comparable to the mongol norm.Yes, that's quite true, since Turkish bows at the peak of their draw weight vastly exceeded the norms anywhere, they had bows well over 200lbs that show signs of use. These were freakish outliers, hence I didn't bring them up, but if you want to we can. The average and majority however was in the range of 100-150, just like English longbows were interestingly. It seems that's where the average high performing war bow winds up, it's unlikely the mongol bows were any different, considering they were used in the same manner by basically the same people with the same lifestyle, and the few found Mognol bows have been estimated to be in that range. However, a reminder that despite being equally difficult to draw, the recurve bow will shoot farther, as it is mechanically superior to the longbow.Basically, videogames aren't real bro I am sorry, but there is a reason nobody ever at any point in history tried the "foot archer to counter horse archer" concept. It's done for videogame balance. It's not real.
>>64767105How come the Mongols never ventured further into SEA?
>>64767391>Venture into China>prime East Asian pussy, vast riches, silk and spiceswow this place is great but what else is out there>attempt to establish relations with Iran>they kill your envoys>invade and totally demolish the place>haul back endless silver, gold, some of the most educated engineers on the planet, Aryan pussywow this is great what else is out there>try to invade Japan>God gets mad and summons a storm to destroy your shipsdamn that place seemed really cool, let's try again>God gets mad again and summons a storm to destroy your shipsok we better not fuck with that place let's try somewhere else>venture to India>get hit by the smell and leave immediately>go to Russia>vast fur trade, endless supply of eastern European slutswow this is so cool let's see what's further west>Hit hungary>It's just more Mongols but they're speaking Finnish and really aggressivenot worth it let's go back to Asia and see what else is there>invade Vietnam>it's like China but the women are uglier and their language more abrasive>also they're poor as fuck there's nothing here to lootyeah let's just go home we got all the good places in the world already
>>64766893> https://grokipedia.com/page/AlmogavarsShut up retard these guys where very capable of killing mounted knights with ease
>>64765773
