Simple, elegant, sturdy, soldier-proof.
>>64854841I dont get why some company doesn't make a modern version
>>64854849There’s no demand
>>64854851I demand one. I also demand a bratty art hoe.
>>64854862You don’t want a bratty art hoe trust me. Shit is great until it isn’t.
>>64854849The italians make repros and there are plenty of originals around waiting to be rechambered in something modern.
I don't get why double barrel shotguns don't have rolling block.
>>64854849It's perfection for black powder pressures. Once smokeless powder is involved, bolt actions are better.
>>64855099nagant made some
>>64854841I like mine. Need to still load up for it though.
>>64854841I always really admired the brilliant simplicity of the rolling block, it's just so fucking genius.>>64854849Not really a lot demand for it. For a practical gun it's just not as good as a bolt-action, and for repros, there could be a BIT of demand, but it'd have to compete with all the existing old guns.It's a bit like wanting to make new Lugers, yeah it's one of the coolest pistols of all time, but there's still a lot of them left.You could maybe engage in some small scale production for a few modern calibers, but they'd never be barn burners in this day and age.>>64855150I'm betting you could offset that with modern metallurgy. You could 100% make a rolling-block rifle in .500 S&W Magnum, and you wouldn't really need to make it any proportionally different, just scale it for fiddy.>>64854881You'd still want to be handloading for a lot of the old ones I think. Are there any of them which could convert to .357 Magnum and which would then actually tolerate that?
>>64854851I demand one in 308 so I can plink with the German DAG training ammo for the cost of 223 and one in 223 so I can shoot 223.
>>64855244Aren't you the anon who got that fine specimen from i think it was a militia arsenal in New York state.
>>64855769>Aren't you the anon who got that fine specimen from i think it was a militia arsenal in New York state.No, mine is from the 1871-1872 contract of 10,000 from Springfield Armory for the Terry Trials in adopting the new service rifle, which ended up being the Trapdoor Springfield. There's another anon who has a New York State Militia rolling block, those have a taller hammer spur and 3 barrel bands.
>>64855262>For a practical gun it's just not as good as a bolt-actionEh, that depends. For fighting? Totally agreed, it's pitifully obsolete. For most kinds of hunting or target shooting where rapid follow-up shots are not important? It's more than adequate for that. In fact many kinds of single-shots have superior ergos and balance compared to bolt-actions because there is no wasted space in the gun for the bolt. Picrel shows the comparison with shotguns but the same basic idea applies comparing a rolling block action to a bolt-action. All else being equal a break-action, rolling-block, or falling-block is a lighter, handier rifle than a bolt-action.
>>64854849Pedersoli still makes them. They're expensive but pretty nice. Everyone that's shot my 38-55 carbine immediately fell in love with it, including me.>>64855262>any of them which could convert to .357 MagnumPedersoli makes those too. If you're dead set on an original, the later ones were chambered in all the usual WWI-era rifle calibers. The action can handle 7mm Mauser and .30-06, so I don't see why it wouldn't be safe with .357.>offset that with modern metallurgyProbably, but I'd be concerned about failure modes. There aren't many stories online about rolling block kabooms but a lot of them seem to feature serious injury or death. Compare and contrast with Hatcher's documentation of exploding early production Springfields, where the usual outcome was no or minor injuries, and most of the eye injuries (in his opinion) would not have happened if the shooters had been wearing safety glasses.
>>64855262>Are there any of them which could convert to .357 Magnum and which would then actually tolerate that?They could easily handle that. They were made in rather potent black powder calibers like .50-70, as well as smokeless bottleneck rifle cartridges like .30-03 (very similar to .30-06), 7x57, .303 British, etc.
>>64854841The Ruger #1 is even better. No bullshit, just a lever and a trigger.
>>64854875>Shit is great until it isn’t.That's applicable to every single woman on Earth.
>>64854841I'm wondering why I don't see more rolling block rimfire target rifles.Are they harder to feed than a martini? Falling block doesn't have much gain except maybe having a feed groove.
>>64862102Yeah and then it costs well over a fucking thousand dollars.
>>64864107Then again I'm in australistan where we have plenty of BSAs and Omarks
>>64864114should of said Sportcos, can only find that Omark only made the 44
>>64864109You're never going to kill it either. It will outlast you and your next of kin.
>>64864134The same could be said for a 10/22 in most cases. The vast majority of (non competitive) shooters will never come close to wearing out even a shitty gun. Screen out massively overbore barrel burners and segmented steel cleaning rods and that number approaches infinity.
>>64864465I'm certain a 10/22 will last well into six figure round counts on an original barrel with just springs, magazines, and ejector wear. Plenty of people claim to have one from the sixties and he and his cousin took it out every weekend and put a brick of ammo through it shooting bud light cans down by the crick or something/another, there's probably someone who has actually worn an extractor or had springs rusted through in one of them.
>>64854862>>64854875I dated one. She was insufferable about the most irritating shit.At first I thought it was cute but after a few months I just wanted to put a gun in my mouth whenever I came home from a 12 hour shift at a place I hate and she had something to say about my outfit or how tired I looked.
>>64862102That's a falling-block rifle though.
>>64864604Simpler, eleganter, sturdier, soldier-proofier.
>>64862102Doesn't Browning have a nice single?
>>64864650>t. needs an action like this for reasony reasons
>>64864650Debatable. Not that I dislike falling-blocks, but the thread was about rolling-blocks.
>>64864724This thread isn't about anything.
>>64864761Fuck you.
Personally, I like the trapdoor design because it's the easiest to make since you just carve out a piece of metal and use the top half as a breach, and that's it. I would make my own trapdoor in 5.56 or 308, but only time will tell
>>64854849The Greeks used these against the Italians during WW2. Worked well enough, and it had the benefit that even the Greeks had the resources to mass-produce the ammo for them.
>>64854841the the cocking lever broke on mine
>>64867753>ersonally, I like the trapdoor designyou mean the wanzl-lorenz design of 1854?
>>64867753>it's the easiest to make since you just carve out a piece of metal and use the top half as a breachDamn anon, did you figure out how to cut steel without a kerf?
For me, it's the Werndl
>>64864650Would not have been well received without a half cock or clear indicator. The biggest thorn in the side of the Martini-Henry was no way to keep it loaded and de-cocked. The cocking indicator was the best they could do for it without a redesign
>>648647031885 rifle
>>64869236In my opinion it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate a safety into the Martini. Have a lever on the side that uses a small cam to rotate the breechblock just slightly so that the firing pin would strike next to the primer rather than striking the primer directly. It could also use a cross-bolt safety to block the trigger and/or the tumbler.
>>64854851There's literally no demand for anything Kel Tec designs, until they make it and it's passable and unique enough that people buy it.
Whoever posted this last time, thanks.This is so simple and cool it keeps me awake at night.
The idea here was you didn't even have to eject, you just fired and the bullet would carry the empty case out with it.
>>64869226It's amazing how dead simple and rugged you can make a gun if it's strictly a breech loader.
The hammer acting as a locking lug, and the breech block acting as an out of battery safety, is the most genius fucking shit to me.
>>64869541It's a very smart gun
>>64854849>>64854851>>64854862most old single shot designs are retardedly expensive compared to modern bolt actions or ARs because modern bolt actions and ARs were designed with modern manufacturing techniques where as a rolling block was designed to be made by a guy by hand and hand fitted
>>64862041a bolt is unfortunately cheaper to make. A remington 700 style bolt action is basically the cheapest centerfire rifle style action out there
>>64868524No, I mean the trap door design. Fuck europe and fuck you.
>>64869613IMHO a rolling block could be made cheaper than bolt-actions. The rolling block was designed for 19th century manufacturing methods, it can be made entirely with 2D milling, whereas a bolt-action requires helical cuts for the locking lugs. That's not a big hurdle with modern manufacturing but we can make simpler parts even faster.A big problem with the rolling block is the lack of leverage for extraction, that is an issue that a bolt-action does not have because the combination of the bolt handle and the camming action of the lugs provides very high mechanical advantage for pulling the case out of the chamber. There are a variety of falling-blocks that don't have that problem but all of them that I know of are pretty complicated like >>64869594 mentions.
>>64869649>it can be made entirely with 2D millingBrother, just stack thick sheet stock and wire the profile on 50 parts at a time...
>>64869663Who said anything about how they would be made today? I was talking about the logic behind the design, not what methods a modern shop would use to make them. Obviously modern methods would be even faster than what they did in the back of the day. That's what I meant when I said we can make simple parts even faster today than we did back then.
>>64869663Those old stamped Volkssturm bolt-action rifles always made me think about if you could make a functional rolling-block action using thick gauge sheet steel and a trunnion insert. You know, just with non-garbage metal and without "OH GOD, THE FUCKING RUSSIANS ARE HERE ANY MINUTE, HURRY!" tier workmanship.But maybe lasercutting or/and EDM'ing some good thick gauge metal would be workable.Also, this isn't related to that, but I want there to exist a rolling-block 37mm flaregun and 40mm grenade launcher, just for the fun of it. Also a .500 S&W Magnum pistol.
>>64869226Crazy that the basic concept of this breech mechanism has been around for at least 400 years.https://youtu.be/beOgmCxeh7A
>>64869316>>64869236Westley Richards added a safety lever to their commercial Martini-action hunting rifles, it blocks the trigger.
>>64862048>.30-03 (very similar to .30-06),isn't the only difference between .30-03 and .30-06 the spitzer bullet?
>>64864107>>64864114I think they just made more peabody actions. Like I know they made a lot of rolling blocks, but most rolling blocks were military contract guns. And yeah they made cadet and target rifles, but it's like the whole thing with the winchester 1885 where they really didn't make that many or the winchester 1895 where again, if you take away the russian contract guns, they really didn't actually make that many. pump action rimfires would have been way more popular and common by the time they were making rimfire rolling blocks
>>64864114why do australians have boy scouts of America rifles?
>>64864704>>64864650Falling blocks have a stronger action than bolts, but it's not like people are firing rounds that bolts can't handle
>>64867868Italians (and italians are not related to romans in any way other than living in the same place) have never been good at war
>>64869641based post.
I can't comblain about this action
Browning solved the single shotexposed hammer but also auto cockingfor some reason none of the repros do that thoughfor (((safety)))
>>64869337>we want this niche gun>okay we made a company to make them, here you go>lol I ain’t paying that>oh no we’re bankruptEvery single time.
>>64870570to be fair, Colt, Remington and Winchester all made normal guns and all went bankrupt multiple times. I think smith and wesson did too, but they might have technically not, I know some retard bought them and then sold them for 10 cents on the dollar a decade later
>>64864107The only common rimfire round is .22 and a rolling block is just overkill for that caliber.
>>64870736they have .22 rimfire cadet and target model rolling blocks. the issue is that the vast majority of rolling blocks ever made were military models and by the time .22 rimfire got popular they had rimfire repeaters
>>64870345Alright, I'm going to defend the Italians just the SOLDIERS and COs on the ground during WW2. Those guys performed extremely well. The Problem is their leadership was shit, and their supply lines were shit. So, no point in fighting if you don't have bullets, food, or warm clothes.
>>64870836have italians literally ever won a war?
>>64870858WW1.
>>64870570"nooo, muh counterargument"Mainstream gun manufacturers are retarded and greedy.Kel Tec isn't.You're dumb.
>>64870858The Third War of Italian IndependenceSecond Italo-Ethiopian War
>>64870858ww1 and ww2. they switch the winning side in every world war they fight in.
>>64870332I thought I saw one for sale, not a boy scouts rifle but it might of only been a stevens favorite.
>>64854841>easier feeding action in your path
>>64871048Italians were 'neutral' in WWI until being convinced to join the Entente.
>>64870332In this case, BSA = Birmingham Small Arms
>>64870864>>64870926>>64871048>>64871380They were so fucking useless during WWI when told during WWII the Italians declared war Churchhill said>that's fine, we had them last timeand all the never fired, dropped once, 4 speeds in reverse surrender monkey jokes about the frogolians are really renamed eyetalian jokes
>>64871515candy man gots the pizza man then the dirty man hit the preacher man wowie look at me come fly with me then dine with me then shine with me and climb with me
>>64855579Based AF
>>64869346Last time and still now I can't figure out how it actually firesIt's a falling block, where the block is angled and kept on a spring - is it fired from the open position, where the block is released by the trigger and springs closed and fires? Surely not
>>64872281You have it. No trigger though, you're pressing directly on the block.Counting things like screws and sights it's ten total parts. A similar amount of machining.The story is a Winchester rep bet Browning he couldn't come up with a design within a week.Browning had this done by breakfast the next day.
>>64868524I was thinking more of a Springfield 1873/88 rifle, but I am pretty interested in looking that up I would not mind trying to see how Wanzl-Lorenz works, and make one once I have the capital and knowledge to set up making good guns. but only god and time would tell.
>>64870866Do you know how many times this has happened dude or are you pretending to be ill-informed? There’s already an italian company that makes reproductions. Go ahead and purchase one, show me your fucking demand.https://italianfirearmsgroup.com/product-category/old-west
>>64870261There were some other small dimensional differences as they iterated on things, but projectile was the biggest change.
>>64869712Francotte did something similar.
>>64873590different guy, but thanks for showing us that website I genuinely did not know what company existed until now, but thanks, I would not mind buying one from them.
>>64854862bratty art hoes are fun till the BPD takes over and she keys your car and accuses you of rape
>>64875661This. Anons should avoid bpdemons even if there is no other option
>>64875541Get a lucky grab on a used one for half the price, believe it or not but a $2000+ reproduction of a single shot rifle doesn’t last in ones collection very long typically. Seen a few of these in person at gun shows in great condition for under $1500.>I want some niche outdated ass rifle>Buy reproduction for thousands>Shoot it like twice>Stays in safe forever>”Why tf did I buy this?” Kicks in>Sell at a loss hoping someones as autistic as you will take it off you
>>64877795Reproductions of most historic guns don't hold value very well at all. People don't want them for practical things like hunting or defense. Collectors don't want them because they're not originals. The target market for a reproduction rolling block is very small: you're looking for someone who is interested in that specific retro gun but is still so new to the hobby they don't have any real ones yet, or is a sperg really serious about shooting that gun and would rather shoot a repro than put wear and tear on an original, and that's a small market. The good thing is that if you are one of those people who wants a gun like that you can get awesome details if you're patient and come across the right deal.But like other anons have already said, if you want a rolling block there are plenty of options. There are a ton of old ones that have no collector value because they've been refinished, the barrel is shot out, or some other issue. Those are a great starting point to re-chamber, re-line, or re-barrel in a modern cartridge.
>>64877879>detailsmeant deals. fuck it's too early.
>>64877879If noobs who want a rolling block won’t spent the money on a faithful reproduction I would doubt they’d spend the time, (less) money and effort on refurbishing a low quality example. The truth is, supposed autists should put their money where their mouth or shut the fuck up with their opinions. Too many poorfags asking for shit without having the sense to know why it’s a shit idea, many companies have fallen for “popular demand” only to go broke and leave a bad taste in everyone elses mouth for trying to replicate the idea.
>>64869337That's nonsense, and not a realistic assessment of their catalogue and business model.>>64870866Novelty repros are a tough part of the market to stay afloat in, he's 100% right.>>64877879>Collectors don't want them because they're not originals.That varies. They're always regarded as less historically valuable, but some people actually enjoy shooting, and being able to have an example/copy of something collectible but which you don't have to worry about damaging by shooting has some value. Perhaps not wide market value, but it does exist. Then it's a matter of the stuff which is actually just hard to get your hands on. Registered FG42s exist in the U.S, but there's maybe 20 which are transferable, and these are some of the most expensive and desirable automatic weapons in the country, it's not good enough to just have a good job and some good expendable income aside, you need to be fucking rich and then convince a rich person to sell it you. Enjoy finding a spare mag, for that matter.So something like the SMG FG42 rifles are one of the few spots where their small production can exist, because there's nothing else to compete with, and there's enough people who really want them who can afford cough up $8000.>The target market for a reproduction rolling block is very smallI will however agree with this. In large part because they made fucking millions upon millions of the things so they are not difficult to find.
>>64877921More or less. I think it'd probably be a better idea for some aspiring gunsmith to find some old shot out ones to refurb and rebarrel/reline, then test the waters to see if people would be interested.I think you could probably get SOME interest with "Hey, here's one of these old-fashioned guns, but you don't have to handload a dead cartridge and just grab regular .357 off the shelf and shoot it."Not sure if there'd be any useful profit in it though.
>>64878041>>64877921>>64877879>>64877795imo rolling block repos are kind of dumb because they made so many of them and a lot of them are in pretty shitty condition with little collector value because no one cares about muh third world surplus gun.like even now everyone only really bitches about surplus prices because we want specific from specific cultures. like I'm sure whatever shit like Bangladesh had isnt going for a lot.you can get a pretty low value rolling block and get a barrel liner and repair and rechamber it. the midway usa guy refurbished 2 different rolling blocks, he changed one from like .32 rf to .32 centerfire and turned a military model into a george Custer clone. the brownell boomer has a rolling block (I think I might be misremembering and he has like a marlin) that he put a barrel liner in and shoots. imo I would only get a repro if I was doing something like cowboy action shooting where I was putting a lot of rounds on the gun and might want to modify it for the competition specifically or if I owned an original that I couldn't or didnt want to shoot for some reason like it was in a weird round or it was especially delicate and I could pare a repro with it so I could shoot the original spairingly while shooting the shit out of the repro. idk the only guns I have that are even repro adjacent are a national match HBAR-A2 and a henry .22 golden boy and those scratch the itch for me while anyone who isnt a retard can see they arent repos or originals. unless I was getting a Winchester or Marlin for hunting I'd specifically want a preworld war 2 gun, even if I had get one with a barrel liner or aftermarket sights or somethingIf I wanted a rolling block I'd either buy an original in shooting condition or see if I could get one that cant be shot and have it fixed and barrel lined into a caliber I can shoot >muh bubbaif the gun doesnt have a specific provenance that makes it special, then it's a tool and it should be shot, not looked at.
>>64854862The next time you are charmed by the image of a woman that strikes your fancy bring this truth to mind: at some point in time some man somewhere has been tired of her shit.
>>64869641>No, I mean the trap door design. Fuck europe and fuck you.>>64870361>based post.
>>64878137>imo rolling block repos are kind of dumb because they made so many of them and a lot of them are in pretty shitty condition with little collector value because no one cares about muh third world surplus gun.True. Though the idea I've been thinking of is if it's possible to make new rolling-blocks, not as fancy historic repros, but more if it could be cost efficient ways to make them really cheap sporters, since the action is so crazy simple.>if the gun doesnt have a specific provenance that makes it special, then it's a tool and it should be shot, not looked at.Strongly agree with this, which is why I was never really bothered by competently sporterized milsurp, it's not like original military config ones aren't still the vast majority.
>>64878041>That varies.That's a fair comment. It is true that some guns are so unobtanium that reproductions make sense. FG42? Sure. Same with something like a Colt Walker, or a .45 cal Luger. But guns like the rolling block aren't rare or expensive. Shooting grade ones are easily found and affordable.
>>64878168idk how cheap a rolling block would be to make. it probably requires more man hours to produce than the modern push feed bolt actions. it's like how pump actions are cheaper than other types of shotguns because most modern pump actions were designed in like the 60s with modern industrial practices to limit man hours in mind where as the rolling block was designed back when man hours were cheap and material was expensive and used different techniques. like petersoli or whoever is making them so I assume there must be some kind of market but like rolling blocks are fucked by being more expensive to make than modern bolt guns and there isnt really any advantage to the design over bolt guns and there are a ton of originals floating around. I dont think the rolling block even sold that well on the commercial market. assuming Google's ai isnt making shit up 95-98% of rolling blocks are military models and I'd make a guess most of the sporting models are boy scout or cadet models. like the 1885 falling block never sold well, I think its under 200k units produced.so it's like a weird niche thing and I think they are only making small batches and selling them to Ameriboos in yurop where they dont have access to original guns and yuros tend to be less price sensitive due to their gay gun laws >>64878167only sheep love the no gun country of yurop.
>>64878215The rolling block was absolutely optimized for early factory production. It doesn't require careful fitting like a break-action. They could be made even cheaper today, there's just not much of a market.
Now you can 3d print rolling blocks. You can also print the bullets.
>>64854841Yeah until you get a pierced primer and the gas pushes the hammer back far enough to unlock the whole thing and send the casing into your eye
>>64873590>There’s already an italian company that makes reproductions. Go ahead and purchase one, show me your fucking demand.>Repros of simple mechanisms>2kDid you miss the part where I said "greedy"?There's a very specific reason I chose Kel Tec as an example from the get go. Their shit is both unique AND affordable.Now before you start a rant about labor and small batches and boutique quality and recouping whatever the fuck. I know all this. My point is if Kel Tec made a rolling block, it sure as fuck wouldn't cost 2k.The problem with repros is there weren't designed for modern methods of manufacturing. As I said earlier in the thread, the moving parts for a rolling block are easily wired on a stack of 25-50 parts with very good accuracy, making barrels isn't that expensive if you use common blanks, and a receiver forging die isn't even that expensive. That is if you wanted to avoid billet, which really isn't that big of a deal either if you can avoid surface milling in the design. As for the wood, just have it made in Turkey. Look at Pietta repros. They sell because they're a few hundred bucks. Are they high quality? No. Do people care? Not even close.So get off your high horse with your boutique bullshit and stop pretending it's a counterargument.
>>64879546>The problem with reprosNTA,but stop fucking generalizing. It depends entirely on what repro you're talking about. A Sharps rifle? Yeah, that's not optimized for factory production. A rolling block? That absolutely was.The reason why they cost $2k is because of the labor required to make them look nice, which their customers demand. You absolutely could make a plain jane one with cerakote instead of bluing and color case hardening, cheaper wood or even a polymer stock, you could probably simplify the design even farther...but I don't think too many people would buy that. The kind of person who gets turned on by a rolling block probably wouldn't want plastic and parkerize.Now maybe if you could get the price down so low that it becomes the absolute cheapest possible rifle you might attract customers who don't give a shit about the action type or the history and they just want the lowest possible price? That could work.
>>64878215>it probably requires more man hours to produce than the modern push feed bolt actions>but like rolling blocks are fucked by being more expensive to make than modern bolt guns It really wouldn't, these are even simpler actions with even simpler mechanics than any kind of bolt-action, repeater or not.>>64878156I get what you're going for, but who the fuck hasn't made someone else tired of their shit at point or another? Not exactly a useful argument.>>64879440How the fuck would that work?
>>64880215>How the fuck would that work?NTA, I don't think it could. Theoretically if the primer was pierced or if there was a case-head failure then the leaking gas could generate a force pushing the hammer backward. That could, in principle anyway, unlock the breech. However, I don't think that would actually happen. At the same time that gas would be pushing on the hammer there would be a tremendous amount of case head pressure acting on the rolling block, which means in order for the hammer to move it must overcome a massive amount of friction.
>>64880215>How the fuck would that work?>>64880253https://law.justia.com/cases/washington/supreme-court/1969/39855-1.htmlEven black powder cartridges have enough pressure to do so
>>64880309I'm not really seeing it. How is the breech block moving when the hammer has dropped and is in the way?
>>64880331The jet of gas coming out from the pierced primer pushes the hammer out of the way.>>64880309>Even black powder cartridges have enough pressure to do soCool, thanks for sharing. Though the level of pressure in the cartridge shouldn't matter, it's a question of ratios: which force is higher, the friction on the rolling block or the force pushing the hammer back. They are proportional and set by the geometry of the cartridge case. The raw level of pressure wouldn't matter, if it would unlock with BP then it could unlock smokeless too, and vice-versa. I though the ratio wouldn't allow this to happen, but it appears I was wrong. Thanks for sharing.
>>64880347>The jet of gas coming out from the pierced primer pushes the hammer out of the way.Oh, that's actually some impressively shitty luck.>if it would unlock with BP then it could unlock smokeless too, and vice-versaTrue, but I think the factors here is that brass casings and primers of this vintage were not the most reliable and consistent to begin with, and also because the ammo in question described in that case sounds MEGA scuzzy and ratty.With any modern standard of manufacture of ammunition, you would be extremely unlikely to ever experience this.
>>64854841Could you scale up the Rolling Block for .50 cal?
>>64880357Yes.
>>64880361Sweet
>>64879546who the fuck would want to buy a cheap and shitty repro of a rolling block? like muzzle loaders can be cheap because hunters buy them and cowboy handguns and lever guns come at multiple price points because people buy them to act out old westerns. but idk who would buy an ugly roughly made reproduction of a rolling block. if someone is buying a repro of one they probably want it to be in super nice condition
>>64880195>Now maybe if you could get the price down so low that it becomes the absolute cheapest possible rifleNow that I think more about it, it might actually be that cheap. The frame could easily be cast (think Ruger), and the other parts are super easily made by MIM. Hell, depending on the caliber it might even be possible to make a lot of the parts out of Zamak.
>>64880215a bolt has to either be cheaper to make or be feature rich enough to be the preferred gun type. if rolling blocks were cheaper henry or the Turks or the chinese or the latinxes would be making them and flooding the market as a cheap single shot hunting gun with polymer
>>64881082You're assuming people want cheapass retro single-shots. From a machining perspective it absolutely is cheaper to make a rolling block vs. a bolt because the rolling block requires no helical cuts while the bolt-action does. But the bolt-action has a huge advantage being a repeater.The other problem that nobody has mentioned yet is that the rolling block has terrible extraction. It worked reliably with relatively low-pressure black powder ammunition. It does not eject reliably with higher pressure cases. Pressure-wise it's plenty strong enough to handle modern cartridges, but a modern rolling block would have to do something to improve extraction leverage. A bolt-action, with it's bolt handle and camming surfaces on the locking lugs, does not have this problem.
>>64881114Being a repeater is a huge utility advantage for the rolling block. Consider this: you could take any bolt-action rifle and convert it into a cheaper single-shot by shortening the bolt and turning it into a "shellholder" action. You'd save money by making the bolt shorter and simpler, the receiver would be shorter and simpler. The magazine and all of its components would be eliminated. Yet, nobody does this. The increase in cost to make it a repeater is well worth the expenditure. The only people using shellholder actions are precision target shooters, and it's usually with large cartridges like .50 BMG.
>>64881177>Being a repeater is a huge utility advantage for the rolling blockMeant to say bolt-action. Am retard.
>>64881114can a rolling block take rimless ammo? I know some company makes martini action guns and they only make rimmed shit. the price point must be close. why wouldn't china or turky or someone sell el cheapo single shots when people used to buy handi rifles or the single shot henry rifles
>>64881261>can a rolling block take rimless ammo?It can. They did exist in stuff like .30 Remington, which is rimless, but I don't think it works very well with rimless calibers. The vast majority of cartridges for the rolling block were rimmed.>Martini actionThe Greener GP shotgun is based on the same action, and was a popular cheap everyman gun in England for a long time.
>>64881277the greener guns uses rimmed cases. I think those martinis I saw were also stupid expensive like $1,600 and the wood wasnt especially nice
>>64881304>the greener guns uses rimmed cases.The Martini action has good extraction leverage though, that is one advantage over a rolling block.
>>64881489the unfortunate part is that I'd be limited to only something like. 30-40 krag or .30-30 or some thirdie round like. 303 bongolian or x54r. though I do think the martini action guns look cooler than ruger no 1s., Winchester 1885s and certainly cooler and better looking than rolling blocks, break actions and bolt actions
>>64880541>ugly roughly made reproduction of a rolling block. if someone is buying a repro of one they probably want it to be in super nice conditionThere's a huge spectrum between ugly-roughly-made and "super nice condition", and the fact that you think I'm talking about "ugly roughly made" when I'm talking about wired moving parts and forgings just confirms you don't know what you're talking about...again.>>64880195>but I don't think too many people would buy that. The kind of person who gets turned on by a rolling block probably wouldn't want plastic and parkerize.>Now maybe if you could get the price down so low that it becomes the absolute cheapest possible rifle you might attract customers who don't give a shit about the action type or the history and they just want the lowest possible price? That could work.There's plenty of people who would buy cheap guns that are mechanically different or interesting. Again..look at Kel Tec. A modernized rolling block would be a fun single-shot. Like the Rossi Brawlers, for example.
>>64881921if you aren't making it exhibition grade, why would someone buy a repo over an original?
>>64881921>Again..look at Kel TecMost of Kel Tecs guns are quirky, but at least they're repeaters you can magdump. A single-shot would be less appealing.
>>64881931For funsies without spending thousands of dollars?
>>64881931some originals are unobtainium
>>64882074>>64882054not rolling blocks. you can go buy a rolling block. they made a lot of them. they're probably like the single most common single shot breech loading rifle, or close to it
>>64880541I think that if you could make .357 Magnum / .45 Colt / .30-30 Winchester chambered rolling-block rifles and pistols which weren't more expensive than $500, and they looked decent at a glance, you could absolutely find yourself some customers in the Cowboy Action scene.However, the question is how many customers that would be, and if this venture could be at all profitable. The presumption here is that you're already running a company that does machining work and maybe even guns, and that the rolling-blocks would be a side aspect.
>>64881931Nigger, do you think that every single Colt 1873 clone or imitator is exhibition grade?
>>64882190there is a way bigger market for single action armies than there is for rolling blocks, you gay retard>>64882119can they even use rolling blocks in cowboy action shooting? I just don't think the market for a rolling block is the same for a lever gun
>>64879546Poorfag say what?
>>64882190>Colt 1873Anon, original Colt pistols are some of the most expensive and desirable collector guns there are. They easily cost 10's of thousands of dollars, especially nice ones cost 6 figures. Or more. Beaters aren't that expensive but they aren't safe to shoot. It totally makes sense that people would buy repros of those--everbody wants to larp as some cowboy hero but the guns are fucking unobtanium.But Rolling Blocks are different. They don't have high demand because of picrel the way old Colts and Winchesters do. You can buy a nice, fancy, antique Rolling Block for under $5k. If you want a nice original Colt 1873 then you better add another zero. If you just want a shooter then you can get a rolling block for under a grand easy.this is a night-and-day comparison in both price and demand.
>>64882205>can they even use rolling blocks in cowboy action shooting?I don't know about the rules, but the thing to understand about CAS is that it is entirely based on fashion/larping. Clearly there's a lot of that in any kind of gun niche, the tacticool guys, the old hunters, the rich shotgun fucks, etc, have their own preferences. But CAS is the ultimate larp. Your costume, persona, etc, is all baked into the rules. So while a rolling block might be legal for competition (I wouldn't know), nobody is going to use one because it's not the meta. Levergats, revolvers, and side-by-side coach guns are the meta. I think people who want a single-shot would be likely to be drawn to the Sharps instead, as that has much more old-west panache.
>>64882190The point is that there needs to be some reason to buy it. Original rolling blocks are common and accessible, so for repros to sell they would have to offer even better value for money. That means they either need to be, say, very basic but only $250, or they could be, say $12
>>64883198>or they could be, say $12Fuck, hit post too soon.Meant to say they could be $1200ish but at that price point people are going to expect nice wood, case hardening or good bluing. Like >>64883106 said you can buy a nice original rolling block with fancy wood for a couple grand, so a repro would have to come in significantly under that.
What can you get away with for handloading old blackpowder rolling-blocks? Would it be possible to replace the barrel on one and that'd make it fine for smokeless, or would the breech block not cut it?
>>64870858The Punic Wars
>>64883116from what I understand, when people do single shot shooting competitions they typically either have a falling block action, a muzzle loading action or a martini action, but I think the martini action is more popular outside the US. For whatever reason, rolling blocks are not the popular larp gun of choice for the various single shot shooting competitions. So that leaves hunting and normal larping. Rolling Blocks are affordable so I don't see why a normal larper wouldn't just get a real one and rolling blocks, falling blocks and other single shot hunting rifles have never been popular, especially when they were competing with any given repeater action. Like people weren't buying fake h&r/NEF handi rifles over bolts. they aren't buying the henry single shots over bolts now>>64883788italy was founded in the 1800s. Romans have literally nothing to do with eyetalians. It's like saying Kennedy was an injin or Cleopatra was a modern egyptian
>>64884004From what I've seen in the US falling blocks are much more popular at shoots/matches. Sharps are common. So are Winchester 1885's, Farquharsons and their copies like the Ruger #1, Stevens, Trapdoors, Remington-Hepburns, Martinis, and Sniders. I've seen more people shoot Euro-style Schutzen rifles at those kind of events vs. rolling blocks.
>>64884034yeah idk if rolling blocks are just less accurate or less stylish
>>64884044They are plenty accurate. During the 1870's there were a couple of famous rifle shooting competitions between the Americans and the Irish. First at Creedmore in 1874 and then a rematch Dollymount in 1875. In each case about half the members of the American team used Sharps rifles and the other half used Remington rolling blocks. These competitions went out to 1000 yards, and the Americans won both.
>>64884062I guess they just aren't stylish
>>64883759It depends on the size. They made them in different frame sizes. Any of them could handle "smokeless" it's just a question of what cartridge. The smaller ones are commonly converted to modern pistol cartridges, the larger frame can handle stuff like .30-06 no problem.People do commonly rebarrel them though it's often easier to reline them instead, that's perfectly capable of full power smokeless cartridges. It's the size of the frame that's the limiting factor, not the barrel.
>>64869346this thing gives me a headache. ill take a thumb trigger
>>64884140I'm assuming I couldn't go full YOLO and convert one of the pistols to .454 Casull or .50 Wyoming or shit?
>>64880309I'm not sure exactly what happened there, but I'm pretty sure that it wasn't what was presented in that case.>>64880331It didn't. Shooter gets hurt in overly litigious society and someone must be sued. Do we sue the manufacturer of the gun, the manufacturer of the ammunition, or the importer of the ammunition? Who they ultimately went after basically tells the story.>>64880650Pedersoli already does this, you fucking idiot. Their budget RB's use injection molded zinc alloy receivers. When I first heard about this it scared the shit out of me, but then I thought about the handwheels on Henry valves (refrigeration thing) and how badly you can beat the shit out of those, and then I got more comfortable about it. And Pedersoli does have a point: they proofed it before they sold it, which is more than American firearms companies do.>>64881261Why the hell would you want one that takes rimless? The rimless cartridge was a compromise that traded cartridge strength and positive extraction for easy feeding. If you're dealing with a single shot, rimless is a downgrade.
>>64885360>Their budget RB's use injection molded zinc alloy receivers. When I first heard about this it scared the shit out of meSee Hi-Point pistols, you can make a 10mm pistol with a zinc slide containing a steel breechface and it'll hold. It all depends on how you use it and for what.>And Pedersoli does have a point: they proofed it before they sold it, which is more than American firearms companies do.Just because the Americans don't have centralized proofing house systems with stamps like in Europe doesn't mean they don't proof their their guns. I can promise you that there's very few manufacturers in the U.S who don't run a proofload or two through any manufactured firearm. It's an extremely cheap and easy way to avoid potential liabilities, so everyone does it.It's outright even possible for Americans to go and buy proof ammo if they want to, it's just that it doesn't get sold in normal commercial channels to avoid liabilities.
>>64854841NOT A SOLDIER'S GUN?!?!
>>64885360>you fucking idiotI think you meant to accuse me of ignorance, not stupidity. It sounds like my ideas do, in fact, work.
>>64855099Like the other anon said there did exist some, but it's a pretty crappy action for a shotgun given that it's so slow to load. As other anons have mentioned its extraction is not very good either, which would have been a huge problem back in the days of paper shotshells. Those were very prone to getting stuck in the gun.
>>64854841Thread got me looking into RB kits. Seems many are saying they are rough casts. Does this mean I just need some patience and a file to them into shape?
>>64885881Yeah, exactly. It is well worth the effort and expense to seek out some good files though, the vast majority on the market are junk. It's tedious enough with good files. With the crap you get at hardware stores these days it's downright miserable. It's also worth buying drill bits and reamers for holes--you technically can file a hole to finished size but it's a lot more difficult than using a $10 chucking reamer.This book is of great value if you're interested in building old gun kits.
>>64885893Oh, and just in case it wasn't obvious: bare castings aren't hardened. So, for the parts that require hardening you will have to do that.
>>64885360>Why the hell would you want one that takes rimless?most modern rounds with pointed bullets are rimless, hell even .30-06 is rimless. If you want a rimmed round you are stuck with a lever action round, a pistol round or a round made before 1900
>>64885435Custer had one at little big horn, though ironically enough he had the rarer sporter model
>>64855099slower to load and shotguns aren't very high pressure anyway
>>64885978There's .360 Buck Breaker
>>64886090at that point, why not just use a lever action?
>>64886138Why not use any other rifle, you mean?
>>64886200I'd use a martini over a bolt action because I don't like bolt actions. I like lever guns, though I will say I own a henry, but I think henrys and smiths both look ugly compared to some of the marlin models
>>64885978>If you want a rimmed round you are stuck with a lever action round, a pistol round or a round made before 1900There's rimmed versions of or equivalents for most hunting cartridges that are intended for double rifles and combination guns (drillings, vierlings, etc.) These are sometimes called "flanged" in Britspeak. You can find a rimmed cartridge for just about any hunting application.To be fair those are not exactly common rounds and it would be stupid not to handload for them. And if you're going to handload you can put modern spitzer projos in whatever cartridge you want.
>>64886229>in Britspeak.I believe they speak bongalog in bongland
>>64854841SOLDIER PROOF ... MY ASS !!! SINGLE SHOT RIFLES GOT CUSTERS ARMY KILLED BY INJUNS ... WHICH HAD REPEATING GUNS LIKE THE OL HENRY (PIC IS MINE) ... TAKE OFF THEM HIPPIE ROSE TINTED GLASSES SON THAT THING ONLY GOOD FOR BUFFALO HUNTIN-Bob
>>64886345I think custer was the only one there with a rolling block
>>64886229Brit & cartridge collector for a decade here. Never heard rimmed or semi-rimmed or rebated rim called "flanged", do you have some examples?Not being a shit stirrer, most of my experience is service cartridges but I just never saw it described that way.
>>64886450Here's .375 Flanged, same thing as .375 H&H Magnum but with rim instead, for double rifles rather than a bolt-action magazine rifle
>>64886460
>>64886464This is the same as .30-40 Krag.
>>64886495
>>64886510
>>64886495Why the fuck do bongs have .30-40 krag? Isn't .303 bongolian basically the same thing as .30-40 krag ballistically?
>>64886460>>64886464>>64886495>>64886510Much appreciated Anon, I assume it's something that has fallen out of favour in modern times or was only used sometimes to denote where a cartridge may use either to avoid confusion?linkrel, similar Kynoch box for a rimmed cartridge but without "flanged" description https://quickfireauctions.co.uk/listing/400-350-boxed/570027
>>64886519Kynoch made ammunition for all sorts, they were still making pinfire ammunition into the 1920s iirc
>>64886523>I assume it's something that has fallen out of favour in modern timesPretty much. They're designed for double rifles, so basically only rich guys going on safari. The golden age of that was decades ago and even then it was limited to people would could afford guns like that. Most hunters were using magazine rifles.
>>64886531Kynoch made all sorts of awesome stuff. Picrel is one of my favorites, tiny cartridges for a pair of minature shotguns that Purdey made for George V. It is a fully functional centerfire shotshell containing 1.6 grains of powder and 2 grains of 'dust' shot.
>>64886541This is one of the guns that fired them, which is also fully functional (ejectors!)
>>64886547And then on the other end of things....
>>64885375There's a difference between a piece of zinc at arm's length, containing pistol pressures, that tends to fail upwards if it lets go and a piece of zinc directly in front of my face, containing rifle pressures, that tends to fail into my eyes if it lets go. As you said, it all depends on how you use it and for what.> I can promise youIt would be better if you showed me.>>64885978Can't tell if trolling or legit retarded.>>64885681Both Italians in general and Pedersoli in particular have been mentioned in this very thread as producing newly made rolling blocks. The fact that you had an easy starting point for researching the state of the art of rolling blocks today, yet still did not, implies that you're ignorant by choice, not by accident. So yes, I meant it when I said that you are a fucking idiot. Now go and do some reading so I don't have to call you a fucking idiot a third time.
>>64888423>Can't tell if trolling owhat fucking moden ammo, other than .360 buckbreaker, is rimmed? every rimmed round is either a pistol round or was made 100 years ago, retardo. all of the rounds that have modern hunting support from the major manufacturers are rimless, fagito
>>64888423>yet still did not, implies that you're ignorant by choicThat's one interpretation. Another is that I'm already well versed in manufacturing techniques and was confident in my answer without needing to waste time researching a gun I will never buy.
>>64888449There's a whole category of rimmed variants of common rimless cartridges (such as the .307 winchester) that were specifically created to allow their use in lever actions. Also - and this may blow your brainrotted zoomer mind, but please bear with me - with the use of a press and a basic bitch two die set, I can put whatever style of bullet that I want in that rimmed case. But thank you for solving that little mystery of whether you were trolling or legit retarded. I'm glad that we got that cleared up.>>64888507You were only pretending to be retarded. Got it. Nice job, BTW.
>>64888999>There's a whole categoryyou gay fucking retard. the most available centerfire rimmed loads are going to be .45-70, .45lc, .44 mag, .357 mag, .30-30, .303 and .360 buck breakerhalf of those are pistol rounds and I could just get a marlin 1894. .45-70, .30-30 and .360 are all lever gun rounds and again I could just get a marlin or henry and all the ammo will be dedicated to lever guns. .303 bong and x54r are the only nonleveraction rimmed rounds that are commonly made. they are less accessible than .308 or .30-06 and they used different projectiles than .308 or .30-06 so your choice of factory ammo is way less expansive than .308 or .30-06, you gay dickless no gunz retard
>>64888423>It would be better if you showed me.Sure, here's some.Savage:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i62JXVDYOFoRuger / Marlin:https://youtu.be/GYu9nJLdMzk&t=264Charter Arms:https://youtu.be/ijhYjKYqTQE&t=760Henry:https://youtu.be/hMNLa5wAsXM&t=738Kel-Tec:https://youtu.be/R2nZuWkJVeY&t=627Like I said, it's so cheap and easy to just prooftest your guns, and it tends to pretty reliably avoid potential liabilities (which can get very expensive and do PR damage), that there really isn't any good reason for them not to just do it.
