>>64882338
sure

Only birdshot.

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Only for hunting in wetlands, where that's shown to be an actual concern for the wetlands and the game in question, thus it's necessary there to maintain them as hunting grounds for the future.

For anything you're hunting in other kinds of 'drylands' though? Lead is fine, but consider picking up your empties after taking shots.

>>64882338
Yeah. I don’t want to eat lead and I don’t want it in the food chain either. Copper works fine. People who complain about it are just whiny faggots.

>>64882751
Better to not eat lead, sure, and we need to preserve hunting grounds, but there's legit complications to complain about with this shit too.

>old shotguns can't tolerate the steel or tungsten shot
>steel shot just has worse effect on larger birds
>tungsten shot is fucking expensive
>SOME places have tried to use laws like these to try to backdoor full lead bans

>>64882751
>People who complain about it are just whiny faggots.
This though it's stupid that some dude shooting 1 round at a deer is even a lead effect discussion. Banning it from range use would be the more effective method.
>>64882813
>I want to use this 19th century artifact in a leisure activity
>I'm also poor
Pick one.

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>>64882820
>This though it's stupid that some dude shooting 1 round at a deer is even a lead effect discussion
You're misunderstanding this. Lead shot in WETLANDS cause a buildup of lead in the groundwater over time, and it's appreciable. It doesn't matter for hunting deer.

>19th century artifact
They made Browning Auto-5s for 75 years and you can still get them for low prices (and quite a lot of other old shotguns which aren't worth very much money), but their barrels can't take steel shot.

>>64882823
I'm not misunderstanding. That's my point. It doesn't matter in states like CA who ban it almost completely for all sorts of game.
>They're actually cheap
Duck hunting is exclusively a richfag thing. Even moreso than deer hunting. There's exactly zero poorfags subsistence hunting ducks. Non issue.

I would use depleted uranium bullets if I could. It's probably not good for the environment, but what is?

>>64882338
>Bullets
Personal preference; I would be amazed if enough lead got into the environment from shots fired in a hunting context to make a measurable impact. Anywhere except California, apparently, but the state of California also puts health warning labels on coffee and washing machines. Also, copper monolithics are the tits. Insane ballistics.

>shot
Lead is tolerable if not ideal for upland species but it should be banned full stop in riparian areas. It's the difference between a chemical making it through skin and a chemical being injected intravenously.

>ect
What fucking "ect"? Lead arrows? Lead javelins? Lead sling bullets?

>>64882813
>>old shotguns can't tolerate the steel or tungsten shot
>>steel shot just has worse effect on larger birds
Bismuth.

>>tungsten shot is fucking expensive
Yep.

>>SOME places have tried to use laws like these to try to backdoor full lead bans
Also a reasonable concern.

>>64882827
>Duck hunting is exclusively a richfag thing.
Just like fly fishing, right? Fuck off, retard. This isn't England where the Earl of Shitholeshire pays $50,000 to lease a strip on the Tay next to a bunch of other idle dickheads.

>Even moreso than deer hunting.
I would be willing to bet that the majority of deer killed in the US each year - especially whitetails - are killed by people on the wrong side of the median income line.

>There's exactly zero poorfags subsistence hunting ducks. Non issue.
Who the FUCK in the US is subsistence hunting in the US outside of Alaska? I suppose if you go to the most desperate parts of Appalachia you might find people who might be forced to pass the winter on hominy if they don't put a deer away but in that case they're almost certainly poaching anyway at which point the discussion about price is irrelevant because they're not paying anything.

>>64882813
>SOME places have tried to use laws like these to try to backdoor full lead bans
You know it's almost always leading to this, right?
The lead shot ban has actual solid environmental legs to stand on.
Anything else is going to be taking a public health angle and that leads places you'd rather it didn't.

>>64882827
I grew up poor and me and my ol man went duck hunting nearly every weekend every year. We had access to some wetlands on a friend's farm, used a duckboat inherited from my great-grandpappy, and made our own camouflage gear. Waterfowling is a big part of the local culture here, so us rural poors were super into it.

>>64882827
>Duck hunting is exclusively a richfag thing
No it isn't.

>>64882827
>Duck hunting is exclusively a richfag thing. Even moreso than deer hunting.
Are you fucking high?

>>64882859
>Bismuth.
That seems to be legal, but given how similar it is to lead, does bismuth then not have the same heavy metal toxicity? I actually want to avoid putting that in my hunting grounds if I can help it, or at least reduce the buildup.

>>64882338
>ect
Etc. Short for ET CETERA. How can you fucks spell a three letter word incorrectly?

>>64882338
Bullets no, but lead free tends to be better in every way. Except in 22 LR.
Shot sure though duck hunting has fallen so much in popularity that shooting lead wouldn't make any difference.

>>64882338
No. The harm from lead leftovers in the game meat is negligible, and prohibition of lead hunting ammo is a conspiracy which benefits gun and ammo makers.
And, as always, green activists are working in the interests of big business rather than common man.
>>64882637
>where that's shown to be an actual concern for the wetlands and the game in question
That research is still dubious.
Anyway, the government agencies could be cleaning up the wetlands from lead if they have to - isn't that what we pay taxes for?

The lead buildup theory is bullshit. The amount of hunters in the world is decreasing, and no hunters do as much harm polluting the land as the gigantic factories do. We should police the industry rather than diminishing population of people with very specific taste for their pastime

>>64883030
>That research is still dubious.
Looked legit to me.

>>64883036
>and no hunters do as much harm polluting the land as the gigantic factories do
That MIGHT be true in this context.

>We should police the industry rather than diminishing population of people with very specific taste for their pastime
I mean, I agree with that as a whole (recycling, etc), but wetlands not getting leaded over time is directly a concern for hunters hunting there.

>>64882921
Bismuth is the lesser evil in terms of the heavy metals. Most of the salts are insoluble, which is a really big plus, and mammals can generally deal with more bismuth than any other heavy metal, so it doesn't bioaccumulate as readily (though it can still accumulate in the kidneys).

>>64883046
>wetlands not getting leaded over time is directly a concern for hunters hunting there
Again, the lead removal is a thing governments can afford - that's why they regularly test the water contents where I live.

>>64883030
>That research is still dubious.
It's extremely dubious. When I was in grade school I did a science fair project on it. I collected samples of water and mud from a local marsh which I put in mason jars. I cut open shotshells and dumped the shot into jars, and then after several months of soaking I had the samples tested. The idea was to see if various kinds of plated shot, like nickel and copper, were less of an environmental risk than the lead. However, the lead could barely even be measured at all, while ironically the copper from the copper-plated shot could be measured. I used 4 shotshells per 1 quart jar. Now to be fair I fucked up and standardized on "4 shotshells" rather than weighing out the exact same amount of shot, but I think I had a lot more shot per volume of water/mud than any real pond and I couldn't measure anything dangerous.

>>64882338
>bullets
In my opinion at this point yes. Copper monos perform very well at this point, the only downside is cost, but when it comes to hunting the difference in cost is irrelevant because you're using tiny amounts. Hunting simply isn't very demanding, even a few hundred yards is very unusual. So might as well. Training is a different argument.
>shot
Here it's more complex. Copper and steel simply cannot perform as well, to an extent that actually gets noticeable. Tungsten can perform even better, but the cost of tungsten isn't just a little more then lead it's a big jump, and birds aren't giving you 100+ lbs of meat per round. At the same time, the harm is potentially significantly greater particularly if you're near a body of water, lots of water creatures (birds included) naturally eat stones to use for digestion or lay eggs on them or whatever and lead shot mixed in has way more actual bad effects. So on balance I support banning lead for waterfowl specifically, but I acknowledge the burden is higher too.

In an ideal world we'd swap the abundance of gold and lead and then use gold for everything but in this gay world have to make do. It'd help if government wasn't such faggots about MUH AP AMMO and messed with what materials manufacturers could experiment with.

>>64883030
l'd say it's astonishing what retarded faggots people like you are but then I remember that you're literally lead eaters and I guess it's kinda justified. Probably too late for you at this point even if you stopped anyway.

>>64883082
As I recall, the lead shot thing is more about birds taking pellets into their crop and poisoning themselves rather than the lead leaching into the water. I might be misremembering

>>64883082
So what if it takes longer than four months?

>>64883097
>As I recall, the lead shot thing is more about birds taking pellets into their crop and poisoning themselves rather than the lead leaching into the water. I might be misremembering
That's a big one, though there are a few others. The core issue on top though is that lead bioaccumulates, and it lasts in soil for thousands of years. So even the concentrations start small and in amphibians and birds as those get eaten it'll start to fan out through the food web. And the concentrations of lead at which an effect starts to happen are TINY, for children it's like a couple of MICROgrams (millionth of a gram) per day, for adults maybe 8-10 micrograms. For baby food it's recommended to be kept below parts per billion.

So like, shit like this >>64883082 is irrelevant, a grade schooler isn't measuring parts per million/parts per billion.

>>64882338
ALL ammo should be lead-free, but we don't have a good alternative to lead that is cheap and has the same properties on impact. Bismuth is cool but it is like glass

lead came from the ground, lead shot just puts it back

>>64882338
It makes no difference. All the bullets used in the world are .000000000001 percent of lead pollution. It's just a distraction from the actual issue.

>>64882338
Nah, it should be an option but the lead free ammo push is just another disingenuous back door attack on firearms owners. The point is to ban cheap lead practice ammo and force people to pay considerably more for copper ammo. Cats been out of the bag for decades on that one considering the people pushing it and funding it. Until there is an alternative that's as cheap and widely available lead ammo should not be restricted outside of niche use cases.
>>64883243
Yea, and water is au natural and needed for you to live. Doesn't mean filling your lungs with it is a good idea. Just because something's natural doesn't mean it can't be bad for you when it gets places it shouldn't be or in amounts it shouldn't be.

>>64883347
>bad for you when it gets places it shouldn't be or in amounts it shouldn't be.
yes, but hunting doesn't do that
I think managing run off from shooting ranges is a good idea but hunting is a non issue

>>64883232
I'm mostly ok with lead as projectiles. Something I've been pondering for a while though is primers, which in the modern day are usually made with lead-styphnate.
Lead-styphnate is cheap, and also a very unsensitive and reliable primer, but it DOES contain lead, and every primer you pop will exude a tiny bit of lead fumes, this being a source of lead when shooting, and also why shooting at indoor ranges is pretty bad for you (the ventilation only does so much).

I wonder if there's any viable alternatives to it? Something that's as dependable and shelf-stable, but without being appreciably more expensive.
Hypothetically electronic primers of some sort, but I feel we're quite a ways off for those to become widespread.

>>64883373
Most hunting is a non-issue, but it actually adds up with hunting waterfowl in wetlands.

Zero lead, cant be polluting our PFAS contaminated ground water you fucking plebs only companies that pay off politicians get to do that.

>>64883459
Might stun your nigtier brain but it's perfectly possible to be against heavy metal contamination AND pfas shit feminizing our testicles. There is no need to choose retard.

>>64882827
>Duck hunting is a rich fag thing
What?
>$300 for a Remington 870
>$50 for used decoys off craigslist
>Shadowgrass camo shirt is $10
>$100 for waders
>$20 for a box of steel shot and cheaper on bulk sales
That’s the bare essentials right there. $480 and you’re out the door ready to go. My deer rifle was twice that. Plenty of good public ground all across the country. For the poorfag enthusiast it isn’t much worse.
>$50 for more sinkers and line
>Labrador puppy’s from field lines are available for $600-$800 and teaching them to fetch just flat out isn’t hard
>Jon boats regularly sell for under $1000 and kayaks can be had for under $200
>$100 a year investment on new dekes gives you an ever expanding spread to mix and match with based on conditions
>$2000-$3000 you split up between some buddies gives you a lease to avoid Googans and wardens on public grounds
It is in no fucking way a rich person sport.

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I think gun nuts unironically defending eating animals ventilated with pieces of hot lead just demonstrates that gun culture is infested with subnormal IQ retards, how anyone can look at this and not think it's crazy is beyond me. Are you seriously trying to tell yourself that we don't have the technology to shoot things with materials that don't cause permanent brain damage? This is the same mentality that was defending leaded gas for like 70 years.
>but I did it and I'm fine
Obviously, you area not fine, thank you for proving my point.

>>64883463
Brother remove the plank from your own eye before you complain about splinters.

>>64883578
I dont recall unleaded gas being super expensive and being used as a way to reduce car ownership.

>>64883583
If the ONLY options are to inject your meat with lead before eating it, or just getting your meat from the supermarket like everyone else, it shouldn't be a hard choice. But there are other options, so it's an even easier choice. The only reason you don't like it is that someone told you a commie eurohippie said it's good for the environment, so you'll gladly sprinkle birdshot on your oatmeal every morning just to own the libs.

>>64882859
>killed by people on the wrong side of the median income line.
Agreed. The rest of you was just seething about being a po ol boy lmao.
>>64882902
>Those poor boys with their old boat, landowning friends, guns, licensing, and time every weekend to hunt (horseshit but it makes you look ridiculous so I'll allow it)
Nigger actual poor people don't even have a car or even know their dad. You're rich
>>64882913
Almost certainly is hence the crying about it.
>>64883568
A boat, couple grand in lease fees,trained dog, time off, etc isn't richfag? lmao.

This is the poor blue collars people think they are talking. Meanwhile the average person can't even afford rent rn.

>>64883628
All this money btw to shoot birds that are, at best, a couple pounds of meat.

What was your argument again? That non poisonous shot was too expensive? It isn't and duck hunters are richfags.

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>>64883568
>and teaching them to fetch just flat out isn’t hard
Almost like they were bred for it. Mine likes to pick up and run away with my mom's shoe just to be a tease, in addition to just carrying things for the sake of it.

>>64883578
The lead literally doesn't matter for land animals.

>>64883628
>>64883635
Boy, you're eminently retarded.

>>64883693
You're a land animal. Keep sprinkling that birdshot in your breakfast cereal, obviously it has worked out quite well for you.

>>64883695
>Just a po boy with my dad hunting every weekend and having storage space for a boat plus 5% of the median annual pre tax income to blow on a hunting lease for a bird that's 4lb
Catchy country tune. Remind me again why you can't afford $30/box for non poisonous shells?

They need to mandate bio degradable hulls too btw. Hundreds of these wash up on the beach every year here after the season ends.

>>64883373
>I think managing run off from shooting ranges is a good idea
My shooting range is right next to a garbage dump/landfill.
Should i be worried?

>>64883705
You think you need a boat to hunt duck?
Also, biodegradable plastics are a scam, what you're looking for is paper hulled shells.

>>64882338
Tbh yes
I normally dislike government regulation, but slightly more expensive ammo is preferable to the nature being damn near irreversibly poisoned

Any fellow AK fags here? The AK DNR offers pretty groovy rebates on full copper ammo. I think it’s like $40 back per box for up to two boxes. The cost of copper is definitely an issue. Other states should offer incentives like this to encourage people to use less lead while hunting instead of just banning it. Im not a bird hunter so I won’t speak to that but the performance difference between copper and lead is negligible at the distances most people are shooting at. I hazard to guess cost is the main reason people choose not to use copper.

>>64883707
municipal landfills are pretty good at managing their runoff, at least around me

>>64883628
>Dog, boat etc.
That’s if you want/can. I literally itemized out the bare essentials that thousands of people get by on every single year to $480 and with the exception of ammo is a one time expense and you call that being a rich fag? No motherfucker you are just obscenely poor. If you have a hobby spending $400-$500 a year is pretty doable even for the average American wagie. There are 18 year old kids all over that get their first tax return and buy a shitty little Jon boat or kayak and convert it into a mobile blind with PVC pipe and zip ties. You really just sound lazy anon.

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>>64882338
Aim for the head of the animal when hunting deer and moose and you'll be fine. More meat will be clean that way. I will say the hunting of waterfowl should always be as lead-free as possible.

>>64883628
>>64883635
Do you not understand how little you'd have to spend each season on hunting duck and deer?

>>64883030
>the government agencies could be cleaning up the wetlands from lead if they have to
...fucking how?

>>64884024
This lol. Conservation agency fag here. I read that and just rolled my eyes.

Lead from guns and fishing was never the problem. It's the mining and manufacturing of products like batteries. Then the improper disposal and recycling. There was never an issue from hunting lead. Even the California condor claim was disproven. However hunting is a hot topic and convenient distraction from the real issue. Do you think the computer, phone, toy, tool, appliance and others are going to take the blame and burden? Absolutely not. Your entire family could throw lead weights in a lake every day and fire led bird shot into the swamp for fun and it would have a zero effect. It's in the processing of, and forms in the final product that are harmful to the environment. Most homes chimneys still have lead flashing on the roof, buckles around plumbing pipes. There are plenty of cities with coupled lead pipes. Lead isn't leaching off in a significant way in that form. Sure if you had a completely lead pipe and ran water through it 24 7 that would become a big issue.
Sorry kids but you aren't the problem. You have been sold a bill of blame that isn't yours to carry.

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>>64882813
they are taking your tungsten

>>64883136
>a grade schooler isn't measuring parts per million/parts per billion.
No, but the university that my teacher got to help my project absolutely did. They used XRF, I thought it was cool as fuck to watch the machine load the little sample cups with its robotic arm.
I wouldn't have bothered to mention the experiment at all unless it were possible to actually draw some conclusions from it.

Add to that the problem with the California condor was never lead from bullets. When looked into by a neutral source the decline of the condor was from shrinking habitat and poisoning. But that poisoning wasn't just lead. It was lead from legacy gasoline that had been dumped into the ground. The lead poisoning in the condors and chicks was from wood sources. When researching they found the condors were eating the paint chips off old water towers. Then feeding them to the chicks. Other poisoning was from pesticides and insecticides. The problem here is simple. Hunters who have a 98% compliance rate in California with the lead ban were never the problem to begin with. Lead shot isn't the problem. It never was. So its ban can't be the solution either.

>>64882823
it can't be that hard to rebarrel an auto 5

>>64882859
>What fucking "ect"? Lead arrows? Lead javelins? Lead sling bullets?
slugs, roundball

>>64882926
how many dicks have you sucked today?

>>64883082
>When I was in grade school
damn this anon btfo'd big science with his 2nd grade dissertation

>>64883136
>lead bioaccumulates, and it lasts in soil for thousands of years.
Lead (and copper) have been "in our soil" since the formation of the planet. It was found many thousands of years ago in the ashes if campfires and was a neat thing to make trinuets out of. If lead or copper was going to threaten a species, they'd be long dead by now from bioaccumulation. Long before homo sapiens ever existed.

>>64882338
Yes, and it should be legal for it to be made of steel jacketed with copper even if it could be fired from a handgun.

how much lead do you get from eating an animal you shot?

>>64884551
>actually it's found in nature so it's good for you unlike that lead free stuff, who knows what's even in it?
Thanks RFK

>>64883879
Do deer taste good

>>64884157
I remember going to the dump and seeing all those seagulls and thinking there is no fucking way duck hunters are doing more damage than the landfills are but hey ideally we wouldn’t have any lead exposure.

>>64884703
All ungulates taste more or less the same. If you want higher fat content you just cut the grind with some pork fat.

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>>64884690
You'll never know, that's the fun part. Tiny little bit gets into the aorta and ends up in a totally different part of the animal in the 10 seconds it takes for the blood to stop pumping and you'd never know.

Lead exposure is like low level carcinogen exposure, you are almost certain to not notice any effects, because it's only measurable on a population level, and this is how people tell themselves that it's no big deal.

>>64883578
ok, thirdie

>>64884692
>actually it's found in nature so it's good for you
Lots of stuff found in nature is bad for you. Worse for some people than others, who can tolerate it. If you are one of the weak ones, it's still good for the species overall.

Don't mess with Darwin.

>>64884719
You actually have a lot in common with thirdies, except they just had the misfortune of living downwind from a paint factory or whatever. Whereas you intentionally gave yourself the brain damage, because you thought it would own the libs.

>>64884710
>all ungulates taste more or less the same
To an unrefined paler maybe. Moose has a very distinct taste. Caribou and certain kinds of deer taste somewhat similar. Cows and goats taste very different to any wild game. All of it delicious in its own way with beef probably being my least favorite. Also, “gamey” is just a buzz word people use to describe wild game that was not cooked well.

I don’t know. I wish creating macroscopic quantities of heavy elements was much simpler. We could combine 2 common metals to form shitloads of tungsten or uranium and use those as cores. But the universe is gay and won’t allow us to do that.

I propose this: bullets with an L:D: over some threshold can be lead-free (steel core, probably), but they must be VLDs. The optimal BT/shank/ogive ratios, von karman ogives, and so on. But where bullet volume is constrained (e.g. pistol bullets), sure, use lead.

>>64882813
>SOME places have tried to use laws like these to try to backdoor full lead bans
No.
Backdoor full ammo bans. Lead ammo is easy to make at home. Making firearms elimination by banning ammo impossible. Ban lead ammo and everything else has to be factory made. Step two: Close the fatories.

Not falling for that one, Mao.

>>64884764
Huh? How does that work? You're still dependent on primer factories and powder factories, aren't you? Wouldn't it be far easier to close those? Most people aren't going to bother manufacturing their own black powder and minie balls at home.

>>64883578
This. For land critters, there’s no reason to use lead. Practice with lead, harvest meat with copper. A box of 20 rounds will provide quantities of meat that vastly outweigh the cost of the ammo if you are a decent shot. I have 18 rounds left in my box and two caribou in the freezer. The cost being prohibitive is a dumb argument.

I buy some of the conspiracies around it being a ploy to make ammo more scarce. Bans are dumb and controversial. Compliance through incentives is far more affective. State sponsored rebates like I said here >>64883835 are the correct way to reduce the use of lead in hunting.

As far as whether shooting an ungulate with lead contaminates the meat or not, it almost certainly does. Bullets splinter, deform, and mushroom. Especially bullets designed for hunting. Hell, just firing a weapon exposes you to lead. There’s a reason why some ranges, even outdoor ones, prohibit food and drink on the firing line.

>>64883932
Do you not understand how little you'd have to spend each season on hunting duck with tungsten instead of lead?

>>64884755
I don’t know man you might have something with goat and lamb but imo it’s more of a texture thing than actual taste. I season the shit out of everything so maybe that’s just me.

>>64883616
>bro just eat meat pumped with antibiotics and hormones and god knows what else

>>64884837
You don't think wild animals eat sketchy things? Also the most primo tier hipstered up, comes with family polaroids and a diploma from Harvard Law designer meat is still far cheaper and far more convenient than driving 2 hours once a year to shoot an animal and then drag it home

>>64884024
magic, duh

>>64882813
for me it's bismuth

>>64884716
that graph just shows when black single mothers were allowed to legally murder their kids in cold blood

>>64884724
>You actually have a lot in common with thirdies,
nope

>>64884853
>is still far cheaper
lol no

>>64883835
Do they offer rebates on bullets as well or just factory ammo?

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>>64885009
Sure do. $80 off two boxes of copper ammo or $50 off bullets. Being an AK resident (especially a rural resident) is pretty fucking based.

>>64884809
Different strokes. I enjoy how lean a lot of wild game is but I can see why some wouldn’t.

>>64884704
The dump is a huge issue. Mercury, lead, poisons. They are all processed and refined versions that are not at all like a chunk or roll of lead. When you make your own bullets with lead it's not the handling that gives me. Lead poisoning. It's the fumes and then cooking on the same pan. (Yes some people are that dumb. People have been handling lead balls, shot and conicals for a long long time.

>>64884853
>>64883616
I'm in awe at this fucking idiot's detachment from reality.

>>64885543
xe's a thirdie who can't own guns or hunt

>>64885040
Same. I get why 300 years ago the fattiest meat was premium but in the modern age where we all operate on a caloric surplus without trying it’s just another thing I end up carving off my cut and feeding to the dog.

yeah

>>64884809
If your meat tastes like seasoning, it'll all be pretty much the same. If your meat has just salt and some mild spices (black pepper, etc), they can be very distinct.

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>>64882338
All steel bullets work as armor piercing so yes all hunters should be required to use lead-free bullets to protect the trees or something.

>>64882823
>but their barrels can't take steel shot.

I am pretty sure they can take soft iron shot. Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. Pure iron is very soft.