What's the deal with antique* guns? Is counterfeiting and frankensteining a big problem like it is with antique watches? How do you buy a good one? Is CMP a meme? Am I going to lose a finger or go blind if I try to shoot with one?*I mean like WW2 era btw not 500 year old muskets. Maybe antique is the wrong word. Vintage? I don't know the words, pls no bully :(
>>64886405>What's the deal with antique* guns?They're old>Is counterfeiting and frankensteining a big problem like it is with antique watches?Yes, google Mitchells Mausers. I've even heard of fake MP34s being produced for the deac market in Europe but I don't know how BS that was.Avoid German shit and you will be fine 99% of the time, most fakes are random bullshit Nazi markings being applied to non-Nazi guns. I have seen AG42B with waffenamts before.>How do you buy a good one?Depends what you are trying to buy.>Am I going to lose a finger or go blind if I try to shoot with one?Not if you bother checking what the service load was for it. For example Swiss 1889s will chamber 7.5x55 but aren't proofed for it and have to be hand loaded for.
>>64886473Also forgot to mention:People don't like refinished guns, restoration/conservation is fine but refinishing to factory is generally considered bad by collectors.A lot of WW2 guns also got re-finished post war, these tend to be worth less as they're "less original" which is stupid logic since it was done historically not by somebody trying to pass it off.Obvious marks of refinishing are markings no longer being crisp due to standing. Sharp edges on wooden stocks being rounded over. Splotchy cold bluing rather than hot bluing (either by rust or chemical). Parts such as bolts being blued can also be a clue on some guns but you have to know which specific gun you are looking at.Any time somebody is selling you a story not the item be wary, a fucked up 91/30 Mosin is not worth the money just because it has a badly stamped Finnish property mark. It may be Finnish or it may just be somebody passing it off.The tl;dr is know your niche, know your markings and know how to spot a BS artist.
>>64886405> Am I going to lose a finger or go blind if I try to shoot with one?Almost certainly not (unless it’s Japanese)Most counterfeit milsurp guns aren’t the “made of tin with a steel pipe made to look like a barrel and receiver” type of counterfeits. It’s “take a functional ugly but otherwise safe basic bitch rifle worth a few hundred dollars and claim it’s actually a super duper waffen SS marked rifle used by Hitler himself to kill eight hundred thousand Jews, fifteen aliens, and also Stalin (before he revived himself as a ghost) all for the low low price of fifteen thousand dollary-doos”
>>64886582SS shit isn't really high on my list of things I want, maybe once I have a pretty good collection I'd look into it. I literally just want some basic bitch examples, but real, original, preferably not frankensteined if possible, and as reasonably good condition as is feasible without spending $15k, preferably shit that would actually work, but I probably wouldn't really shoot with them, maybe once or twice just to say I could.Enfields, garands, nuggets, 1911s, hi-powers, things like that. Axis small arms are cool too but again, I'm really not looking for like, Hitler's actual personal jew-killing pistol, that's kind of weird, no judgment if you're into that but it's not for me. Just something that looks like what a rank and file soldier would have carried.Is that kind of stuff a minefield of fakery and fraud?
>>64886630German stuff in general is a massive fraud minefield. Everyone somehow has a Waffen-SS rifle, Himmler's personal PPK, etc. I think the weirdest were common WWI Lugers restamped with Japanese Arisaka mums, which is a 100% fake thing (Imperial mums were only for rifles, not pistols) but were sold as OMG RARE JAPANESE LUGER.
there's a lot of information out there from autistswhen you narrow down which gun you want, do some research on it and what markings to look for
>>64886405If you're looking for something specific, then read up on it before you go to a show or into a store. If you happen to see something that interests you, then use your phone to find info on stuff like appropriate markings and finishes. Know where serial numbers would be and check that visible ones match. Bring a bore light so you can make sure it all looks good inside. Any seller actually wanting to get a customer won't mind snipping off the zipties or whatever so you can make sure the rifling is good. Also need to know what ammo you need if you want to actually shoot it. Pressure differences and burn rate (Definitely pay attention to this in older semi-autos.)Here's some examples of tells for faked milsurp rifles, and just some experiences I've heard from shows>German K-98s and Yugo M-48s have different handguards (48's covers the rear sight), and the 48 lacks the bolt disassembly disk on the stock. Mitchell's used to put the disk on to sell the rifles for more.>Authentic Enfield Jungle Carbines will have lightening cuts (Around the receiver and lugs, and on the barrel if you remove the handguard), hollowed bolts, and do have bayonet lugs.>Mosin Nagants do not have a nighttime/marksmen/suicide orange paint on the sight/receiver to indicate it's a special (more expensive) rifle. It's just paint from an arsenal touchup to make it easier to see.>If you're buying a Springfield 1903 then check the serial number, ones below a certain group were not adequately heat-treated.>Japanese rifles, "last ditch" are perfectly safe to shoot. So long as the gun itself is solid. Side note: Chrysanthemums are nice but I think a lot of people try to ramp up the price based solely on that one stamping.The people trying to sell guns do not have a responsibility to answer questions truthfully, it's up to you to learn and know where to look. Don't be afraid to walk away if you're unsure. But do use the resources available to you to find the best info.
>>64886405>Is counterfeiting and frankensteining a big problem like it is with antique watches?It really depends on the gun. It's very common for various stamps to be faked on anything associated with Nazis. Guns that have a strong collector following like 1911's, P08 Lugers, C96 Mausers, Colt revolvers have a problem where less-desirable models might get modified into more desirable variants. People have cut up Colt Dragoons in an attempt to make fake Walkers. And even back in the 1800's you would have lower-end shops making knockoffs of any big name gun to varying degrees of quality. Colt revolvers and British Bulldogs, for example, were knocked off in small shops all over Europe. Some were obvious knockoffs, others look just like the real thing.On the other hand nobody really knocks off things like fine double guns, high art Exhibition type stuff, or oddball and obscure pieces.Guns being refinished is a potential issue. >>64886507 covers it well. Generally speaking, re-finishing a gun wrecks its collector value, but there are exceptions. You will find people selling fancy double rifles and shotguns for over $100k that have had the barrels re-blacked. So long as it was done properly it doesn't really harm the value though it obviously would if Bubba did a bad job. The only thing I really have to add is to keep an eye out for the CONSISTENCY of the condition of a gun. For example if you see the metal has a lot of wear on it but the wood looks perfect--that makes no sense, the wood was either sanded down and refinished or the stock was swapped from a different gun. Likewise the wear on the metal should be consistent. If some parts look nearly new while other areas of the gun have obvious wear or signs of rust that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.>How do you buy a good one?Do your homework first. There's a well known saying: Buy the $100 book before you buy the $X,000 gun.
>>64886630>I literally just want some basic bitch examplesBasic examples are rarely faked, except perhaps people trying to pass off a lesser condition gun as a nicer example. The fakery comes when people try and modify a basic gun that's not worth much to try and make it seem like it's a rare variation. A good example is 1911's. If you're a serious 1911 collector you might want one made by the Singer company--that's one of the rarest variations. If you were trying to buy a gun like that, which would probably cost 100k or more, you'd better make damn sure it isn't a lesser variant that someone faked the Singer markings on.>>64886754Jungle Carbines are very commonly faked because of how easy it is to make one from a more common Enfield. That's a great example of people faking a more desirable model by bubbaing a common variant.
>>64886793Yeah, that's why I listed some of the things I've read about them. Because I've seen a lot of "Jungle carbines" at shows. Which some were high-priced and others fell into that "Too good to be true" range. I guess that's another good tell, knowing what price to expect. If someone can sell a forgery for cheap then they still made a profit off someone not knowing better.
>>64886473>random bullshit Nazi markingsYou see a lot of random bullshit markings on Khyber Pass and Chinese Warlord Era guns. However, those are usually quite obviously....off.
>>64886807
>>64886814IMHO the best thing you can do if you're interested in old guns is to look at as many pictures as possible. Browse collector-oriented dealers like Simpston Ltd and Collector's Firearms. Check auction catalogs like Rock Island. The more photos you look at the better you will get at spotting when things are off.
>>64886473FUCK MITCHELLS TO DEATH I WAS A 90S COME OF AGE KID THOSE FUCKING NIGGERS
>>64886630If it's marked Nazi, it's fake. Not AS much with guns.
>>64886754I have a suicide orange mosin, it was one importer being an asshole, per usual.
I have no idea how prevalent this is for guns, but I have seen knives with faked "broad arrow" marks, so that might be of concern if you are into British or Commonwealth surp.
>>64886405>Am I going to lose a finger or go blind if I try to shoot with one?So. You're looking for a shooter, your options are a lot wider here. Get a headspace gauge for the gun you want and learn how to recognize shit like rust under the stock, repaired cracks, oil in the wrists, and problematic serial ranges. Don't buy a gun because it's an "investment", buy one that works>What's the deal with antique* guns? Is counterfeiting and frankensteining a big problem like it is with antique watches? Yes and no. Original guns, ESPECIALLY surplus military models that were in service for a long time, were often rebuilt and refinished several times. There's a solid cottage industry of people trying to get more money by falsifying markings and serials, refinishing beaters, or the like. If you're looking for a shooter, these guns are fine unless there's something inherently unsafe about the design. Once you recognize it, you can use this to get much, much cheaper guns that still have historical character. Some of the things collectors find desirable (like original bores, or "patina"/improperly-maintained guns) are actively detrimental to shooting them, or even potentially dangerous.>How do you buy a good one? Is CMP a meme? CMP gets you guns that will shoot. They're dredged out of arsenal back stock and often rebuilt to military standards. You can pay a lot more for a nicer-looking gun. It's not uncommon for people to buy 2-3 and keep the nicest for themselves. They're technically illegal to buy just to flip, but that doesn't stop dickheads Most of the actual good shit is taken; your best bet is to watch for a big import batch of surplus and jump on it as fast as possible when it goes on the market. For things like Garands and 1903s those years are LONG past, we're well into the era of "An ISO container full of random bolt-actions from Ethiopia, good luck nerd". Best chance of getting something that looks good otherwise is buying in-person
>>64886630>Enfields, garands, nuggets, 1911s, hi-powers, things like thatPistols are a LOT easier than rifles. There are several countries that made 1911 (no A1) and 1911A1 pistols for years. It's a massive rabbit hole, and depends on the country - Argentine pistols are usually great, Spanish or Belgian not so much. 1911s are harder to rebuild without a lot of hand-fitting, and nobody's faking Argie Ballister-Molina markings when they could be faking WW1 ones or Singers.For your other guns, a big batch of European police Hi-Powers and Berettas just came into the country a few months ago (I snagged an Italian police Cheetah off of it). So you should be able to find them relatively easily right now. Go for an "undesirable" variant like that and it's much more likely to be a genuine gun and a decent shooter. Same goes for cheap pocket pistols. There are tens of thousands of them on the market and they've been displaced by cheap modern guns, so their only real value is as novelties. It's easy to get a Baby Browning or the like in pretty much any gun shop in the country for a couple hundred bucks. It'll still cost more than an LCR and they kind of suck, but they're just neat to have.
Somewhat related story, I bought a 1979 Colt Python off someone for a "good deal". It has been re-blued, but I was ok with using it as a range toy then. However, whoever did the rust bluing fucked up the crane. There was excessive corrosion that you couldn't see until you removed the cylinder. I thought the cylinder lockup was good on inspecting, but I was wrong. Had to pay for a replacement crane, which was like $200 extra.
>>64886507>People don't like refinished guns, restoration/conservation is fine but refinishing to factory is generally considered bad by collectors.I've seen both a Ithaca 37 and a mauser HSc go for way below what they'd normally because some asshat nickeled them. You could see some of the Nazi marks drowning in the nickel on the HSc what a fucking travesty lol.
>>64887438Nickel plating was a big thing for GIs bringing back pistols in the immediate post-WWII era. Most had no clue their war trophy would be worth effectively 1% of its potential value due to their local bubba gonsmiff's "nickel" job.
>>64887794At least it's preferable to the braintrusts back then who polished them until they were in the white in a similar persuit of shiny.And both the Ithaca and the HSc looked pretty cool. I would have bought them with zero shame if I had the cash at the time. Neither was flaking, the nickel was holding really well
>>64886807>BROWNINGS>BROWNINGS>BROWNINGSCan't help but read it in that oldschool monster truck ad voice.
>>64887438I don't claim to be an Ithaca expert but I think that some Ithaca 37's came with factory nickel, I've seen several of them over the years and the finish looked too good to be a bubba job. I bought a beat up nickled one as a project gun assuming it had been bubbaed. When I tried to blast off the nickel prior to cerakoting it was a serious bitch to get it off and the more I worked on it the more I came to believe it was factory rather than bubba's handiwork.>>64887794In the book Sixguns, the author writes about a man named "Hacksaw Tom" who supposedly traded a woman for a copper-plated colt .45 which the author later bought from him.
>>64888107Could have been factory nickel but that gun was certainly not in factory condition overall.Had a black plastic pump and grip in PGO configuration.Funky thing.And now I kind of want to shop around for a cheap win 1300 to do a duke nukem shotgun clone
>>64886405The term you are looking for is Curio & Relic (or C&R for short), with antique meaning 1898 or earlier under US law at least. C&R is 50 years or older up to 1898.C&R firearms have most of their value derived from being a collectible rather than a gun. You can actually get an FFL 03 as a collector and have them shipped to your home rather than a dealer.>Is counterfeiting a thing?It is, but mostly if you are getting into really high $ stuff. As other anons have pointed out this mostly happens with nazi stuff or older wild west/civil war confederate guns. It's easy to stamp "wells fargo" on an old cut down SxS shotgun and pretend it was a genuine stagecoach gun that was used on a route from Denver to Virginia City, or smack a Waffenampt on a Yugoslavian M48 and tell some fool that it's a genuine Kar98k.As a general rule buy the gun, not the story. If you are interested in a particular type of gun, learn all about it first. If you just want a shooter, know what makes a decent one. Be picky, be patient and walk away. There are lots of crooks and liars out there.Also I really don't recommend buying online unless it's from an extremely reputable dealer (who will typically charge a massive premium). You don't have a way to tell what condition an old gun is really in unless you see it in person. Some surplus guns were retired in generally very good condition such as Swiss K31s, and some like the C96 are often clapped out basket-cases. Fixing a really fucked up old gun is not always possible and it is never cheap.>Will it blow up?Typically not, but it depends what you are buying and what condition it's in. A Mauser 98 in good shape is perfectly safe. One with a deeply pitted bore or re-barreled by bubba with no headspace gauges probably not so much.>Is CMP a meme?If you want a Garand it isn't. Maybe a 1903 or M1917 but they don't carry those very often.You mentioned WW2 guns. What are you thinking about buying? Do you plan to shoot it much?
>>64886405>Is counterfeiting and frankensteining a big problem like it is with antique watches?I think mitchel's mausers does that. they also take like yugos and refinish them and lie and say they are k98s> Is CMP a meme?CMP is or at least was a government operated organization and they only sell legit stuff. Anything that isn't legitimately WWI/WWII era milsurp is labeled as such on their site, see the new production garands or the .22 target riflesCMP is basically the US government owned version of the NRA. Keep in mind the NRA and NRA-ILA/PVF are technically 2 different organizations. the NRA is a section 501(c)(4) nonprofit >A 501(c)(4) organization is a social welfare organization, such as a civic organization or a neighborhood association. An organization is considered by the IRS to be operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare if it is primarily engaged in promoting the common good and general welfare of the people of the community.[32][33] Net earnings must be exclusively used for charitable, educational, or recreational purposes[34].
>>64886630nuggets are usually fine, you can get a garand from the CMP. the only issue you might have with an enfield would be head spacing issues and parts from multiple guns. but no one really fakes enfields usually if someone's faking a gun it's going to be American or nazi
