https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20260219-airbus-ready-to-build-two-new-european-fighter-jets-if-customers-ask>Airbus, which represents Germany and Spain in the multibillion-euro FCAS warplane program, will support a proposal to instead build two separate jets if the countries participating in the project request it, chief executive Guillaume Faury said Thursday.So to save FCAS, Airbus wants to split the program into two variants (like the F-35 with A and C variants) with as much commonality as possible, except Dassault is still resisting to the idea of handing over any of its fighter expertise to Airbus as it sees them not as a partner, but as a competitor.So is that's it, FCAS is dead isn’t it?
FCAS is well and truly dead and realistically has been for a year+.
>>64886949Won't happen. France won't budge from their current position and Airbus just needs to walk away and either start talks with Sweden with regards to their 6th gen plans or shop around with existing 6th gen platforms like GCAP. There are also hail mary's like linking up with Turkey on a Airbus-Turk 6th gen, start talks with one of the eastern euro countries, or go to the Americans and ask to be part of the F-47 program.
>>64886974Germany is in an absolutely atrocious position where what remains of their domestic aerospace industry dies if they don’t take lead in development and work share, but they are also decades behind the actual major players in fighter design. This paired with the amount of money they will have to throw into development means they’d won’t be satisfied playing second fiddle to other nations’ industry, making them overall a very unattractive partner. The type of new airframe Sweden has said to be interested is also diametrically opposed to what Germany wanted out of FCAS. Their options at this point are basically to throw a lot of money into what will be a comparatively disappointing fighter platform to save their domestic industry, or become a customer of whatever 6th gen program is offered on export, effectively killing what’s left of their fighter aviation industry.
Uk should join F-47 project desu
>>64886949Just buy F-35, ffs.European countries are too narcissistic to ever develop proper weapon systems in cooperative programs.All the fuckers in charge want their own system to get the benefits of the development program, regardless of the cost it causes towards actual defense.France, the UK and Germany are dead countries. All three of them have already been fucking killed, and they're just in the early stages of decomposition.There's no point paying attention to what these corpses do in terms of military defense. They're useless, worthless and retarded. Just prep yourself to cheer when they end up in civil war or collapse.
Damn they copied the su57 lerx
>>64887001Why?They already have GCAP which in the long run could make them some money if it's a successful export fighter for the rest of europe besides france.
>>64887005Ok but why don't you tell us what you REALLY think anon
>>64887042It'd be really funny if they flat out steal the Felon design and unfuck it>piss us off by adopting what is ostensibly a Russian design>piss off Russia by stealing their idea and making it not shit (heresy in their culture)>piss off China by not stealing their shitty jet design instead>piss off Eastern Euros by making them adopt Russian shit again>piss off France because they have to work instead of infinitely stall, plus it won't be carrier capable>piss off Germany by reducing how much work they get to do>piss off England because they're always unhappy with whatever anyone does
>>64886949Consider Airbus and other Germany companies have key capability gaps I don't see how they can do this and lead their own fighter.
>>64886949Just buy more F-35's. Russia will never have a counter for them.
>>64886949>Dassault is still resisting to the idea of handing over any of its fighter expertise to Airbus as it sees them not as a partner, but as a competitor.Airbus isn't a competitor, it's a zombie. Saab offered to work with them on the condition of no tech transfers either way. No one wants what Airbus has to offer except maybe production capacity. Which is the source of the original beef between Dassault and Airbus: the frogs don't need IP or design input from Airbus, and they don't think France alone can afford to place enough orders to keep the production line open. Dassault's gamble is that France will be able to pay to develop FCAS alone, and then Germany will still choose to buy European even after getting screwed.
>>64887005Europe needs to federalize and nationalize its military industries.
>>64887731The industries are good, the reason for federalisation would be so there's mass to each order.
>>648869492 is a bit low even for lichtenstein
>>648871686th gens are not about Russia. They're about the US.
>>64886949I don't want the ugly french 5.5th gen fighter.
>>64887005NATO is dying/dead so US clients are diversifying.You can't treat your customers with contempt and expect them to keep giving you their business.
>>64887042>>64887143What would they call it? The Felony?
>>64887005>>64887168FCAS was set out to fly in 15 years. Buying F-35 then is about as retarded as buying F-16 as a first world nation now.>>64887143It would be funny but I don't think that thing is salvageable.
>>64888028Do what NATO was never brave enough to do for reporting names and call it the Femboy. Lean fully into the they/them military memes. Make someone in the third world in 30 years' time have to write a letter to a family explaining their loved one died to a Femboy strike.
>>64887152I always hear about this "capability gap" but what exactly is there? I can't imagine there being a field that is entirely lost in germany / can't be revived wuth enough money / can't be bought from within other EU nations
>>64886949How's the other pan-european program going? The MGCS?
>>64888051India is trying to do that, doesn't seem to be working for them. Money isn't a silver bullet. It takes decades of experience to build up and by then the front runners will have surpassed what they were developing into.
>>64888146I am aware of that. But germany is not india (yet) and isn't restricted by similar concerns. Germany doesn't need to build up every branch up from scratch and, as it is aiming at a european fighter jet, can integrate components from other european nations. An aircraft that uses foreign (but still european) components might even be a selling point when it comes to exporting said aircraft to that country.I am specifically asking what these capability gaps are and why germany can't solve them with either money or european partners. IIRC the engine was thrown around in a former thread with the claim that MTU wasn't capable of producing a new jet engine that meets expectations. IMO questionable from the start but do we really think that Safran wouldn't rub their hands at the opportunity of selling more engines. Or they will ask the italians or spaniards (like they did with the eurofighter. They may even ask eurojet directly to build the engine since it's already there).The only "real" problem is that the stealth part has to be largely build up from scratch. But the US had to do the same before they build the F-117 and later F-22
>>64886949bus with wings
>>64888077German funding for FCAS and MGCS are tied together so it'll be dead, too.
>>64888208Germany's capability gaps are basically in everything specific to fighters - engines, avionics, aeronautics, even weapons. Germany has utterly underinvested for decades at this point. And there's no easy paneuropean solution precisely because both Italy and the UK have their own plane.It's not impossible to develop the capabilities by spending some money solo - that's exactly what Japan did after they didn't get the F-22, which turned into the X-2 Shinshin demonstrator, and a significant part of that dna is going into GCAP. That project took Japan almost 13 years, from concept to flight. The time to start making those investments, which France did but Germany did not, was a decade ago.
>>64888208Not him, but regarding your point on using foreign (but still european) components, I'm not sure if there's any nations that would fill those gaps and look to be customers.>IIRC the engine was thrown around in a former thread with the claim that MTU wasn't capable of producing a new jet engine that meets expectations. IMO questionable from the start but do we really think that Safran wouldn't rub their hands at the opportunity of selling more engines. Or they will ask the italians or spaniards (like they did with the eurofighter. They may even ask eurojet directly to build the engine since it's already there).The only real choices would be Safran/RR/GE/P&W and that means all those companies/nations would have a veto over the German aircraft. Also, they would need to have the design capability which could be used for national designs. I think EUMET will continue, but only for the German Spanish plane, which would be built off the purely French engine designed for SCAF. If not then GE might be the best bet as they have slack design capacity.
>>64886997No.Germany is the biggest player in the Schengen economy, they have strong economic bargaining power. Their real problem is political, not financial: everyone knows they are solely responsible for fucking up the Eurofighter consortium, so they have zero reputation and nobody wants to be their partner.The entire FCAS saga is basically the two assholes who fucked up Eurofighter first begging everyone else to play with them, and then trying to play with each other when nobody else wants to, and finally the inevitable falling-out of these two assholes. This was wholly predictable, the rest of us have just been popcorning throughout.
Talking about Germany, I've looked at the Tranche 5 of the Typhoon. It looks like quite an upgrade over the previous ones. The upgraded engine gives 20% more thrust, the radar is substantially better compared to the Captor E 1, better EW.
>>64888358Yup, and frankly it seems quite clear to me France has been TRYING to get Germany to leave for at least a year now.Their demands on NGF workshare were insane when they wanted germany to fund 40-50% of it.Also their 2045 timeline was specifically done to piss germany off, it's why Dassault is talking about being able to do a fully domestic french 6th gen aircraft by 2038 (instead of 2045).The 2045 date, along with the imbalanced workshare split for funding alloted, was always just meant to be unrealistic to piss germany off and get them to leave the program.
>>64888365French industry was fighting for a large slice of the pie, which is natural, the French government wants continued cooperation. They don't want to fund it solo. If anything the German government wants to ditch France more and assume total control. Which is perfectly reasonable as well.
>>64888365>France has been TRYING to get Germany to leave for at least a year nowoh noNone of the points you cite are particularly obstructionist or anti-German, France does this to everyone. Nothing personal, as they say. What you're seeing is the unstoppable force and the immovable object. France left Eurofighter because they wanted everything done their way and refused to compromise. Eurofighter was gimped for decades because Germany wanted everything done their way and refused to compromise. Now FCAS is failing because the two assholes tried to partner up and cannot come to a compromise because surprise surprise, both want everything done their way and refuse to compromise.>>64888363RAF Typhoon T5s will be the best non-stealth fighter in the world, basically.
>>64888363>the radar is substantially better compared to the Captor E 1They are using the Mk1 for their new jets, not Mk2. This is because Mk2 is basically British and Mk1 is heavily German.
>>64886949Of course they would, they aren't the one paying for it.>as much commonality as possibleYou can't do better than having only one fighter in the first place.I can't fathom why the German would refuse it outside of wanting to actively sabotage their own Defense so the US can take over.None of their reasons to disapprove even make sense.>be Germany>the French are too arrogant! We want them to prostrate themselves at our feet despite them proving they made cheaper and better air-fighters on their own time and time over.>we gave them "full control" and they say it's not enough just because we planned to outvote them and block everything unless they obey us!>why don't they trust us with their military tradecraft or a majority vote anyway? I mean beside us selling ourselves out to foreign power repeatedly, making our Eurofighter costs explode for no reasons, wanting only air-superiority aircraft despite needing to backpedal with the Eurofighter, constantly adding components that hostile countries can withdraw from us, refusing weapon on the (still unfinished) Eurodrone despite history proving us ridiculously wrong, reducing our commands of A400M long ago and now it's biting us in the ass.>the French never trust anyone, I mean except when it come to Airbus, or MGCS to replace all combat vehicles, or space, or wanting to give us access nuclear weapons, letting other countries produce their fighters, or trying to work with us instead of against us like we do with them...>they don't even make the airfighter we want! They believe in multirole fighters made to win war that other countries "pay us to have", while we need a busywork anti-air flying thingy to keep German industries happy and get sweet contracts from the US "ITAR trojan horse" lobbyist.I am missing anything?
>>64888376>France left Eurofighter because they wanted everything done their way and refused to compromise.You can't compromise on:- carrier-capable,- capable of surface strike,- capable of carrying one bigger missile that may have a nuclear symbol on it.As for Germany- want cheap? Still better to make it with France and produce far more fighters (instead of needing to close production lines).- want to only attack air target? Just don't buy the bombs,- don't need it carrier-capable? Just buy the 95% communality variant without the tailhook.- don't want nuclear weapon? Just don't make any
>>64888460>You can't compromise on:>- carrier-capableYes you can, if France does what everyone else does and fund the carrier variant on its own>surface strikeis not the issue>capable of carrying one bigger missile that may have a nuclear symbol on ityeah this is on Germany TBF>As for Germany>- want cheap? Still better to make it with Francelol no>want to only attack air target? Just don't buy the bombsunless they're being charged for the ability to drop bombs, which is unfair. but that's what France did>Just buy the 95% communality variant without the tailhookexcept they would be charged a premium instead of given a discount for leaving off the tailhook>don't want nuclear weapon? Just don't make anyyeah again this is on Germanyfurthermore, Germany demands aerospace tech transfer which is retardedbut on the flipside France also demands a bigger workshare than it should fairly get, which is also retardedin general, the French chimping out over their customers not willing to pay the high price (in cash and in kind) that France imposes is retarded, because EVERY SINGLE SALESMAN in existence in the world past, present, and future has had rejections. it's practically axiomatic that you will receive hundreds if not thousands of rejections for every cold call you make. so what makes France the special snowflake that they can rant and rave about being rejected?either performative bullshit, or French exceptionalism; either way, it's irritating and unwarranted and they can suck it. go sell their tech to the jeets and have it all stolen by Pakis and Chinks, see if I care.
>>64888460Wasn't a major reason they wanted the M88 in the jet as well?
>>64888545>Yes you can,No they are at opposite ends of the spectrum. The Rafale is optimised for low speed manoeuvres (so it can land on a carrier) and also needs to be heavier to survive deck landings. The Typhoon is optimised for supersonic manoeuvrability (which it excels at) and runway operation.
The reality is France is going to end up with a 5.5th Gen cope plane and Germany likely won't get anything or at best will develop a 5th gen 40 years after it was relevant.Europeans needed to soend the money decades ago. They can't "catch up" because we're already brainstorming 7th Gen planes while prototyping 6th gens. The product cycle is too long to just sit around like Europe did.Only the UK/Italy have any hope of getting a 6th gen aircraft. I think Japan can as well and obviously will now that it joined with the UK.The technology gap is huge in aviation.
>>64888545>compromise>your partner pay for your fighter that's superflous for them, AND have to make another extra fighter to get the absolutely critical feature they need.You'd make an incredibly bad salesman.>variant...or you are tech-illiterate and believe that carrier-capability is something you can add later, not something you develop from the start and as the Rafale demonstrated still better than the "air-superiority" Typhoon.>unless they're being charged for the ability to drop bombsGerman literally had to spend millions making the Typhoon capable of ground strike later when they realized their mistake.They still suffer a civilizational guilt-trip where they believe they need to nerf their own offensive capability to not turn Nazi.>a premiumThe Rafale cost less than the Eurofighter did for participating countries, and now will even get to sell Marine Rafale to India.Germany being who they are, all other countries would be entitled to ask them to pay extra as an insurance in case Germany suddenly pull back.Even UK was wondering is they made a mistake when procuring F35B instead of F35C because they didn't want to spend money turning their carriers into CATOBAR (which is still a possibility the carriers were built to have).Btw, if the F35C have poor communality and costly maintenance it's because of the VTOL FAN, not because of carrier "premium".>so what makes France the special snowflake that they can rant and rave about being rejected?We are beyond mere "customers" here. This is a decades long, wait, a half-a-century long alliance that will define the future of Europe.Aside, France treats their customers pretty well and don't hide maintenance price like the US do.>>64888587Given how modern warfare is shaping up, missiles-bus and cheap drone, not making your main fighter good at maneuvering slowly is a dumb idea.Once again Germany seem to think it's still the Cold War and the only thing that matter is speed.
>>64888572Yes but that's because it's more suited for the carrier fighter they needed.
>>64888923>if the F35C have poor communality and costly maintenance it's because of the VTOL FANWhat did he mean by this?
>>64888976>shhhh... he doesn't know
>>64888992?The lift fan was an essential part of the aircraft from the very beginning
europussies will buy f35's for the next 40 years with a smile on their face or else
>>64889067Of the F-35C?
