Was this guy a hack?
>>64946647He was a retard who misunderstood the point of the millennium challenge. It's not an exercise when you basically play God. The US wants results like the time the Swedes could have sunk a carrier, sure impressive for the Swedes at the time. You didn't hear it happening more than once though.
>>64946672so if he was retard how did he become General?
>>64946703that's a question as old as time
>>64946703Because he was a Marine.All that means is that he was the least retarded marine.
>>64946710maybe he should have not smoked so much weed
>>64946727>Be retard>Outplay a room full of supposed smarter people>Nobody stops youHe's too dangerous to be left alive
Van Ripper's the kind of guy that thinks genius means misinterpreting limitations to their advantage. Unless you have a technological gap to make your enemy not be able to detect/anticipate speedboat spam then its a total meme equivalent to moving checkers pieces like its chess.
ssaaaar he could have saved the USS Ford which is now sunk all lives lost by iranian cruise missile
>>64946758I might be wrong but the thing that pissed everyone off was not so much the speed boat spam. It was he somehow had instantaneous unjammable communication because of motorbike messengers
>>64946672In fact it's happened like 4 times with various navies. And that's only the declassified times we know about. The bongs apparently "sink" a carrier nearly every time they play.
>>64946849Is it wrong that I would still bang her?
>>64946957ain't she kinda dry homie?
>>64946647No, the entire millennium challenge was a psyop orchestrated by the CIA to bait Iran into investing into a retarded strategy.Agent Ripper performed his task without fail, heroically sacrificing his personal reputation for this strategic memetic trojan horse to be inserted into IRGC planners heads.
>>64946797>he somehow had instantaneous unjammable communicationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore
>>64946984but he used the space planes?!
>>64946984>Agent Ripper performed his task without fail, heroically sacrificing his personal reputation for this strategic memetic trojan horse to be inserted into IRGC planners heads.I am familiar with this playbook
>>64946963I like my women like I like my sandpaper
>>64946647It doesn't look like the Navy is interested in finding out.There is not a single US warship in the Persian Gulf.
>>64946987>>64946797I am on record as advocating exactly that however Ripper was unaware that such an advanced device was in use since the late 1800s in the exact place he was talking about.Motorcycles would be ideal for positioning them and maintaining the network as well as distributing new one use pads:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-time_padhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliograph
>>64946953That's how they all should go, however when you have absolute meme cannons like the doofus in OP with teleporting bike messengers the benefit of learning from real, possible, scenarios where your army is on the backfoot or beyond fucked by Murphy is replaced with powerlevel debates about Goku vs Superman. Gotta keep these things somewhere between "our weak and decadent enemies are incompetent, they crumble before the might of our superior soldiers, hardened by a lifetime of living in poor conditions, armed with our newest tech" and "we will be simulating a fight where [my guys] are time travelling quantum computers who have weaponized string theory and harnessed the power of the sun"
>>64946753> Outplay a room full of supposed smarter peopleLol.Lmao.
>>64946984Shahed swarms? Dont think Boomer Ripper suggested that. That was another guy.
>>64946797The problem with the speedboats was that they were armed with multi-ton silkworm missiles, not that they existed
>>64947174Hah. I forgot they had silkworms, ngl I thought it was torpedos for some reason.
>>64947174No they didn't. The speedboats had Exocets, and there's no technical reason why it would be impossible to mount an Exocet on a speedboat. And after the reset, Van Riper was given a list of targets he wasn't allowed to attack.
>>64946647He did it for shits and giggles.
>>64946987Jammable by weather, smoke, and by just standing in front of it.
>>64947116The issue is that a motorcycle network is sensitive to, you know, the motorcyclist fucking wrecking his shit and dying in a crash.
>>649470712 destroyers and a LCS
>>64947346>there's no technical reason why it would be impossible to mount an Exocet on a speedboat>P-15 Termit/Silkworm warhead: 1,000lbs>Exocet warhead: 364lbI can see a technical reason why it would not be nearly as effective
>>64947116may we see the record
>>64946984wow I believe itI know it's total bullshit but it works
>>64947538An Exocet is still nearly a ton, it's not going on a cheap speedboat
>>64947346>And after the reset, Van Riper was given a list of targets he wasn't allowed to attack.Because there were several units from different branches trying to be part of the training exercise, there was supposed to be an air assault during the exercise and also F-16s shooting live Mavericks at Nellis AFB to simulate attack runs.Van Riper was trying to be a fucking online gamer and rack up his K/D when the military was trying to give all the units involved a scenario for them to role play and observe what goes wrong and goes right, what needs fixing, what concepts developed in theory don't actually work in real life, etc?Do you understand how it's a fucking waste of time to have to tell your troops that you don't actually know if doing Plan XYZ is going to get them killed because General Asshole here is trying to get medals pinned on his chest for winning a fake battle? Because he wants the Winning So Hard We'll Get Tired Of Winning™ Award? You fucking fake died before you arrived at the fake battle because the enemy read the script beforehand, you fucking loser. Should have went to college and become an officer to waste millions of dollars doing this shit.
>>64947541If i recall it was a thread about EW where bugles somehow came up and we got to talking about comms. I think it involved me mentioning the Norks apparent ability to tie their vehicals external speakers into their comm net. Later on i said if i were in charge of a military specifically a low tech one i'd make sure my troops could use morse, bugles and one use pads then extended that to include heliographs. After all if they can already do morse that way heliographs would be a logical extention. Just search the archives for my trip and after reading a few hundred of my VERY IMPORTANT OPINIONS you should find it.
>>64947576>>64947541As an addendem: It has actually been done IRL just with horses instead of motorcycles. There have been entire networks of them, including in the US Midwest and the afgans used them against the USSR so it is a proven idea.
>>64947576part of the trouble with bugles is that they require skill and a good deal of energy to use, the chinese had a lot of trouble using them as backup comms in vietnam due to exhaustion/starvation
>>64947538The Exocets weren't what was killing the American ships. REDFOR launched so many missiles in the opening salvo that it overloaded the ships ability to track targets and they were sunk by Silkworms from coastal launchers. Even so, look up HMS Sheffield. An Exocet is nothing to sneeze at.>>64947566You should look up how much the weapons that the Iranians actually put on their speedboats weigh.
>>64946647He was, at the absolute least, a buffoon.
>>64947605Especially with lots of long form messages and it is a perishable skill, that is probably a big reason the Norks moved to tying their external speakers into their comm net for shouting orders at dismounts. That was revealed in a neat way, an observer at a parade noticed that some of the music was coming from the tanks and was scycronised perfectly with the live band. Their company sized color guards/banner bearers still carry bugles though so they probably have a residual capability.
>>64947568>You're only allowed to shoot at the raptors you can't see and don't even exist yet>You're not allowed to shoot at the V-22s full of marines coming to assault your positions>Hey look, the tiltrotor assault was successful!
>>64946797>predicts starlink>get's called a retard and thrown out of the room:(Well I guess starlink isn't unjammable, but still.>>64947538>warhead weightsWhat kind of retard are you? The actual missile weighs just about 8000 pounds, plus the rig to actually launch it without destroying the boat and you're no longer looking at some tiny speedboat.
>>64947781You missed the conversation. See >>64947346.
>>64947781>missile + launch rigThats just firing the missile. How are you going to hit anything without a targeting radar? How are you going to find your target without a search radar? And how are you going to power all of these systems with a speedboat engine?
He like every boomer just assumes America is at parity with the rest of the world, and that every other country can do the alien shit the at the US can do.
>>64947638> You should look up how much the weapons that the Iranians actually put on their speedboats weigh.Not that much. The missiles are technically AShM, but they’re more for popping other patrol boats and small frigates. You aren’t sinking a carrier or Burke with one. Or two. Or even half a dozen.And the torpedos they use are lightweight anti-sub torpedos. They’re not exactly hauling around ADCAPs. And again, you’re not going to sink a sizable warship with one, even assuming you get close enough to shoot one.
>>64947869You don't need fire control radar for sea-skimming missiles because their targets are typically beyond the radar horizon. You just fire them off in the general direction and they'll lock onto a ship when they're close enough to pick it up with their own radar.For old missiles, at least. I'm sure new stuff has all sorts of magical datalinked sensor fusion with optical target recognition bullshit.>>64947915They have Type 63 rocket launchers that weigh as much as the Exocets that Van Riper was loading on them.
>>64947576nothinggot it
>>64946739
>>64947116No one is saying that it's not a viable way of communicating that doesn't involve electronic systems, just that it would have severe limitations and latency while being highly vulnerable to disruptions. At some point you're better off having the motorcycles laying phone line.
>Was this guy a hack?No, his tactics would've worked for ukies, but not browns
>>64948025>grape sour
>>64947925A type 63/75 without the towing carriage weighs around half a exocet. Some Iranian boats don't even have the full sized ones they have ones with 6-8 tubes.
>>64947128read up the millenium challenge reportdude was just playing OPFOR with outdated equipment, meanwhile on the opposite side, the USN and USAF couldn't get their coms right which fucked the whole operation and turned a weeks long training into a days long failure showcaseso yeah, thanks to him the "smarter" people finally realized what does RTFM mean
>>64948186Oh and a single load of rockets weighs more than the launcher.
>>64948197Disreguard this, i was thinking of something else. They are heavy but not that heavy.
>>64948186>>64948209Okay, but it's not so much less that mounting an AShM is infeasible. And Iran did in fact have speedboats with AShMs mounted while it still had a navy.
>>64948195>thanks to him the "smarter" people finally realized what does RTFM mean>the "smarter" people actually read the manual>realize the majority of his strategy is exploiting gaps in the simulation software and ignoring already noted and accounted limitations in the real world portion of the exercise>tell him to knock that shit off and adhere to reality>van Riper proceeds to have a public melty
>>64948252>i didn't read the report : the postmillenium challenge was hardly a "challenge" but more like "i need a minute to know what i'm reading in this manual" exercise.The USN and USAF kept wasting time trying to figure out new technologies used by both groups to coordinate assault and INTEL/counter INTEL, OPFOR used that wasted time in launching assault while neither USAF or USN was paying attention to the field and couldn't coordinate their defense on time.when the exercise was restarted, the OPFOR team was forced to follow the expected scenario and had to wait everytime for both the USN and USAF to get their shit working together to be able to pass an action.in that exercise, you can see two issue.1 - coordination is key is changing entire planing to force new technology require a fuck huge time to make sure everyone involved know how to use every tool properly2 - If the timing isn't correct, an opposition force can quickly exploit the gap and use it at their advantage to claim victory with minimal resistance.does this mean the US armed forces sucks ? fuck no they don't, does this mean everyone in the world not following the report of this exercise will get their shit stomped in if they believe it won't affect them ? fuck yes it will.this is the major issue with OPFOR/BLUFOR scenarios, they are so heavily scenarized that BLUFOR hardly learn anything except what high command ordered them to learn, they never face some clever cunt doing what he please because they wouldn't have the time to learn the required shit (which they should have done earlier before the exercise) and high command don't want to make public that their army is always getting wasted so easily to the general public.
>>64948301> The USN and USAF kept wasting time trying to figure out new technologies used by both groups to coordinate assault and INTEL/counter INTELYou mean they were attempting to accomplish the thing that the whole goddamn exercise was meant to accomplish?
>>64946647>Was this guy a hack?No, he was just a munchkin.
>>64948301>couldn't coordinate their defense on timeis that what you call forcing BLUFOR to spawn at point blank range against OPFOR antiship missiles? idiot
>>64948227Clarification: When i said 'not that heavy' i was refering to 107mm ammo not the launcher. A full sized type 63/75 vehical mount with two loads of rockets is comparable to a exocet.
>>64947925>>64947346this is the missile in questionnote the size of the truckalso, they only go Mach 0.9 topsif you maddog them at the fleet they will turn on Aegis to full-auto and blow all chaff and the missiles will see nothing but a giant electronic blobthe Navy's main objection was that they were NOT PERMITTED to use Aegis's full-auto function due to exercise limitations>>64946797it was both, but I personally maintain the motorcycle couriers was the most egregious powergaming move he madesome of his moves were good. for example, the report acknowledged that fucking up an entire amphib landing with a dirty bomb was solid stuff
>>64946647They achieved light speed and became pure energy.
>>64946953>The bongs apparently "sink" a carrier nearly every time they playthis has been happening since the 60s that I know ofmost of the time it's scheduled so sub captains get to practice sinking enemy ships
>>64947116You're saying that Kim has superluminal motorcycles? Because the whole problem with Van The Ripper's idea was that he "invented" a solution that got around snoopers and yet still somehow operated with no latency like a radio does.
>>64947116Jesus fucking Christ, go sit in the corner. The normal people are talking now, you aspie.
>>64948926What is worse is that if you mad dog them they will all go after the same target which is the most heavily protected one. Now if he said 'submersable speed boats and torpedoes' that would be another thing but in 2002 the Norks hadn't transfered that tech yet. >>64948948Of course not although the idea is solid. The Norks defence comms are fiber optic and secure enough that the US has to try (and fail) to use SEALs just to tap into his phone conversations. What i outlined with one use pads, motorcyles and heliographs are just a primitive 150+ year old (besides the motorcycles) version of how starlink is screwing around with networked laser communication. Heliographs can be automated like telegraphs which the USA and Canada did with fire warning systems in theearly 20th century, much like laser comms work today.
>>64948926My take on it is that there should have been two exercises: the primary MC02 against a relatively "static" opponent, since the goal was to test a whole bunch of new CONOPS, tools, techniques, etc., plus get some valuable training time for the troops and double-check a bunch of assertions that had never properly been tested, followed by a cheaper CP-only free play--ideally, some time later, made using wargame rules that had been corrected based on the results of the first wargame.The problem was, congress wouldn't pay for the wargame by itself, so they had to get creative and raid the training budget by labeling it also an "exercise", and in exercises, you're supposed to make sure that troops get a chance to learn lessons from experience, not just get told "You're dead, go home". And, because of lack of resources, mismanagement of resources, scope creep, or any number of other reasons, the software wasn't ready on time but the movement of real people and units couldn't be postponed.Wargames are important. Exercises are important. Combining the two is at times necessary (see: Fleet Problems, interwar) to make sure your wargames and exercises aren't teaching bad habits or incorrect assumptions. But, it's hard to do.
>>64948982Sure, but fiber wasn't as cheap and reliable in field usage back then. And heliographs don't work over the horizon at sea, where the USN would normally be set up (back in '02, the USMC was still planning on moving landing ships back 40NM and using AAFVs). So, while I would agree with you today--heck, the US is supposedly doing spooky stuff with LPI mesh comms, nevermind what StarShield bandwidth will allow--it wasn't nearly as simple an option 24 years ago for Iran. Heck, I think I was still on 56k dial-up back then (anyone old enough is now hearing the modem mating call in your head). Smartphones weren't even around yet.If doing VtR's job today, I'd make heavy use of fiber, and lots of field phones and phone lines that could be deployed rapidly. Iran, however, apparently picked off-the-shelf gear from China, including apparently using the same CCTV system for mass surveillance that the CCP uses. Which Israel hacked, and used to spy on the movements of the mullahs and their bodyguards. Oops.
>>64949049>I was still on 56k dial-up back thenme too>(anyone old enough is now hearing the modem mating call in your head)eeehhhhhh ohhhhhh eeeyonk eeyonk eeyonk tsssss
>>64946647The problem wasn't really his ideas, it was the fact he implemented them in bad faith. If he had proposed his ideas to whoever was running the war-game and worked with them to make it work, it could have been a genuine learning opportunity. But he didn't do that.>"Hey, I want to arm a massed fleet of small disposable speedboats with anti-ship weaponry.">"Oh! Interesting. We can ask some of our engineers, get their opinion what kind of weaponry could feasibly be mounted on-">"NO! I WANT THE BIGGEST FUCKING MISSILES OUT THERE. THE BIG SUPER I WIN MISSILES">"I want to revert to courier mounted communication since we're being jammed.">"Okay, we can work with that. Given the distances and travel methods, we could implement a latency effect or-">"NO! I WANT TO KEEP USING MY RADIO!"Arguing about the merit and feasibility of his ideas is beside the point, because he didn't want them to actually be implemented. He just wanted to """win""". So instead of wasting this incredibly valuable and very *expensive* learning exercise to assuage his ego, they rightfully showed him the door.
>>64949049Wiredogs, giant spools of wire, crank up phones and the like should be perfectly compatable with loud speakers, light signals and bugles. It is a multi spectrum enviroment so act like it.
I tortured myself reading the entire Millennium Challenge. Here is a summary: win95 clipart, pointless graphs, enough acronyms to make your eyes bleed. A few interesting tidbits on running a logistics operation on 3.5mbit up/downstream. They experimented with chatroom's to disseminate info and found it was worse than worthlessVon Riper is not mentioned once. Not one time by name. And his strategy puts Iran in a worse place long term even if it works once.
>>64949509>They experimented with chatroom's to disseminate info and found it was worse than worthless2002s icq chatrooms? yeah no shittoday however every tank, jet, APC driver and JTAC demands a keyboard for typing messages as the barest minimum, soon they will want accurate voice to text>his strategy puts Iran in a worse place long term even if it works oncethat's one of its claims that I couldn't quite process, because it depends what they meant by "long term" which depends on so many political factors it's really waaaayyyy outside the scope of the exercise
>>64947116>I'll just pass this time sensitive, digital targeting data for a mobile target using manual one use pad encryption and my flash light. Sounds like something he would actually try and then cry about when it didn't work. >>64947346You can mount an exocet on a speedboat. If Iran had exocets, which they don't, but even if they did, in that arrangement the vampire is going to have to launch pitbull and from a speedboat to even get a launch cue you're going to have to be within like 13 miles of the carrier. At which point your entire flotilla will have been dead for about an hour a half. So more Van Ripper fan Boi apologism.
>>64949539>be within like 13 miles of the carrier.Wasn't the entire task force in sight range of the coast due to the constraints of the exercise due to ongoing commercial activity in the area?
>>64949996Are you expecting the speed boats to approach from the land? Or were they sitting there "within visual range" and the TF decided to ignore them?
>>64949996Basically due to real world constraints the entire TF was located a few miles from shore instead of the 150+ like they would have in reality. This also meant that they had to have their entire SHORAD system offline to prevent accidentally blasting every skiff, pleasure yacht,fisherman and oil/cargo barge within 15 miles. Which was fine because the excercise wasn't a test of fleet defence and so there were no special rules put into place to govern that sort of thing except for simulating the travel time for Carrier launched assets as if they were 150 miles off the coast.Of course as soon as the excercise started Rippers physics defying Silkworm speedboats all spawned in the same bay as the TF and basically killed every single ship in literally less than one minute.His entire strategy was basically looking at the excercise rule manual and finding exploits in the simulation that were either so outlandish that they wouldn't be an issue IRL, So obvious that they had already been "solved" and so the simulation wasn't testing against them, or literally physically impossible cases that the simulation didn't explicitly outlaw due to them being impossible IRL.There was never any attempt to engage with the premise of the excercise in good faith. Ripper went in with the attitude of "well i'm being forced to play at a disadvantage therefore ima fuck em" and basically flipped the table while jerking himself off.
>>64950098>Rippers physics defying Silkworm speedboatsThere were no silkworms on speedboats and there never will have been no matter how many times you repeat this.
>>64947658Yeah you can't call in an artillery strike with chemical shells on the only plot of land available for an air assault because you READ THE SCRIPT and metagamed that shit.
>>64946647/pol/ quotes him and his exercise all the time so he must have some fans.
>>64946753He pulled rank and had a tantrum like most of the political generals do, there is a reason why Based Hegseth called them all to the carpet and forced retirements.
>>64951799Who exactly accused him of doing this?
>>64948301>The USN and USAF kept wasting time trying to figure out new technologiesWhich was the point of the challenge.>they never face some clever cunt doing what he pleaseNah regular OPFOR units get to have their fun
>>64947071Oh God it's "ISIS-American tactics all over again.". Yes clearly it's cowardly and dishonorable for us to move assets after shooting from them, clearly. And therefore we are not really winning because we lack Shia honor and izzat lmfao.
>>64951810You're going to have a lot of reddit armchair generals seething because orange man did it but you're completely right.
>>64951813To compensate for the air assault requiring the aircraft to not be shot at, and have SEAD/DEAD conducted on the defenses, Van Riper asked to use a chemical attack to spoil the landing but was denied.You can't use knowledge gained from the scripting to summon a fucking blatant area denial tactic. A real enemy commander would not be told where to place defenses to practice SEAD.
>>64951819Calm down, that is not what I was getting at. The challenge required the Blue force to deploy close to Reds shore. That is obviously risky and a bad idea. What is going on now is not a test of whether VRs tactics would have worked.
>>64951854Okay, but why was there a requirement not to shoot at the slow and highly observable V-22s when in a real conflict, they would be an optimal target?
>>64952082Because the timeline of the assault was compressed, so by the time an assault would actually happen IRL, the air defenses would have been destroyed.Plus, the marine unit conducting the assault could only be in the training area for a limited time, and there’s zero value for anyone involved if, five minutes into their part, the judges go “whoops. Every one of you is dead because the REDFOR commander is a dick”
>>64952082>>64952371Too many people don't understand that the Millennium Challenge was a wargame to test the feasibility of specific courses of actions taken during what was totally not an invasion of Iran. Setting aside the metagaming issues, why would you send in an air assault when the enemy's AA network is still operational? The exercise assumed SEAD/DEAD was already completed for the sake of time constraints rather than forcing weeks of SEAD that would happen in the real world.
>>64947071>There is not a single US warship in the Persian GulfWhy does there need to be?
>>64952470there are tho
>>64952470>>64952477Its unclear if there is or is not. But people don't want to be genuine and instead just want to argue the side that fits with their narrative.
>>64952505okay let me clarify there were 3 ships there when the shit went off
>>64952508Okay, let me repeat myself>Its unclear if there is or is not.
>>64949056>>64949049https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpMrTxMV6E4
>>64946953Given that the fleet is going around blaring active sonar and killing everything in a thousand mile radius with a tympanic membrane its to be expected. Which is the point, that one swede sub popped up among a fishing fleet which obfuscated its position. Of course in an actual war those boats would have been warned off or sunk if they didn't fuck off.It wasn't even all Ripers fault either. Yes he bullshitted his way to a win, but the physical location of the fleet(ie near shore so as not to obstruct the shipping channel) was input rather than their intended simulated position(right in the middle of the shipping channel). So when the Silkworms were launched from the dinghies which couldn't carry them the missiles were actual yards away from the ships they were targeting within the simulation.
>>64946647>making fun of van riperWhat level of /k/ope is this?
>>64954130His status as a lolcow is well-known, tourist.
>>64954133>touristIm glad this isnt my home board>furry porn and trannies>off topic nerdshit threads>latest zog narrative/k/ can keep it
>>64954124>that one swede sub popped up among a fishing fleet which obfuscated its positionwhat, really? that's the oldest trick in the book lmao>It wasn't even all Ripers fault eitherit's his fault for insisting on keeping the result even when this was explained to himand then he doubled down by essentially wanting the entire fucking US military to go home and not do their training in order to abide by the results
>>64954150IIRC van Riper was on his way out anyway due to not getting promoted so his behavior really becomes suspect.
>>64954598Van Riper was already retired, he was personally requested to come back and take charge of REDFOR to provide a challenge. Then it was decided that they didn't actually want a challenge, they just wanted to dunk on scripted NPCs.
>>64954632"You can't block my communications because I communicate through Star Trek transporters" isn't a challenge.
I think /k/ takes this exercise more seriously than the Pentagon. It causes so much butthurt here. I hope the DIA are in this thread taking notes
>>64954642Neither is "you're not allowed to fire SAMs at V-22s or C-130s, you just have to assume the position and wait to have your asshole reamed."
>>64954686>we're assuming a SEAD/DEAD campaign has already been carried out for the sake of time and other constraints regarding the exercise>but a SEAD/DEAD campaign hasn't been carried out
>>64954717>Hi, we need you to help us uncover holes in our plan>Just assume that the plan already happened and roleplay the aftermath
>>64954143>furry porn and tranniesand much much more on nu/pol/, the brownoid's favourite board.>o-off topic nerdshit>i-i'm too stupid to know what all these difficult acronyms mean, i-i want to feel includedtoo bad, faggot, the geeks will inherit the earth, normalnigs now have both less brainpower and less testosterone than us, since social pressure now rewards them for acting like effeminate faggots (like you) rather than responsible, cool and inspiring adults.>latest zog narrativeso anything that doesn't lick the boots of whatever contrarian shithole will finally defeat the perfidious now or whatever?
>>64954732>but I did have breakfast this morning
>>64954732>how can the simulation assume I didn't have breakfast this morning when I DID have breakfast?
>>64954732>all your base are belong to me because my troops had breakfast this morning and yours didn't so they all starved to death
>its a "people post half-remembered secondhand rants about MC2002 instead of posting anything from the actual report" thread
>>64954732>we want you to poke holes in this plan or maximize resistance to the plan within given resources>stipulation: the thinks you do can't violate basic physics and get pissy when we call you out>mission unpossibru
>>64954977Are you really surprised people are more interested in the time an USMC general legitimately tried to pull "ain't no rule says a dog can't play basketball" than the fairly dry analysis of wargame results?
>>64954732> Hi, we need you to help us uncover holes in our planThat’s not what the exercise was about you fucking numpty
>>64954811>>64954814Samefag>>64955157That is explicitly the reason why Van Riper was called up from retirement to command REDFOR. They literally wouldn't have needed REDFOR at all if they just wanted to do some scripted drills.>[JFCOM Commander Gen. Buck] Kernan personally selected Van Riper to lead the OPFOR, believing that, since he was a “devious sort of guy” and “a no-nonsense solid professional warfighter,” he was the best possible candidate. >On the eve of MC ’02, Kernan even declared: “We have a very, very determined OPFOR, both live and simulation. … this is free play. The OPFOR has the ability to win here.”
>>64955138Yes and no>Riper was a genius that the military refused to let do anything and they buried his results, it was a scandal!>Riper was a cheating retard, his tactics were utterly impossible and were rightfully ignored!Both of these stances are mostly bullshit, because 99% of what anyone fucking knows about the Millennium Challenge is based on one of a handful of vague articles published two decades ago that were pushing one side of the story or the other, and a thousand anons recalling what they (wanted to) remember from those and adding their own flair. Every discussion is just:>lightspeed motorcycles>silkworms on speedboats>passive AA>refloated fleetAnd in nearly every case both sides are full of shit:>OPFOR unconventional comms was an assumption, just one without well-defined limits>OPFOR pre-emptive missile spam was considered an effective tactic, but left OPFOR out of usable munitions>the SEAD/amphibious portion had to get done quickly for scheduling purposes because they were slinging actual missiles and helos around>fleet damage was heavy, logged as such then partially mitigated to be able to continue the exercise, not ignored (and Riper was wrong to whine about this)What pisses me off is that we're stuck arguing over fantasy versions of these events and ignoring everything else that happened which is so much more interesting. Hell, I bet right now is going to be the first time that any Anon has mentioned that BLUFOR accidentally caused a mass civilian casualty event im the sim by cutting off the power to a metropolitan areas hospitals.
>>64955382>destroy enemy power grid>retarded turd world enemy has insufficient backup power>turdies in hospitals dieboo fucking hoo, not my pig not my farm
>>64954732https://youtu.be/Umc9ezAyJv0?si=RvKbyqckF3OItEUC
>>64955382I'm the anon that's mainly been defending Van Riper, I generally agree with this. I think he was wrong to go complaining to the press, but I see why he was frustrated and I think most of the anons in this thread are shortchanging him heavily. The MC02 was not intended to be a scripted drill, Van Riper's tactics were broadly within the bounds of the simulation, but also constraints on both sides made the simulation not particularly realistic in general and I see why the decision was made to restart the exercise. I also think that the military did in fact take what happened to heart more than other anons here do, and I think it's likely that the reason we haven't seen a single Iranian speedboat in this entire war is because they made the entrances to the speedboat tunnels a priority target in the first day. I also think that the reason why the attack began with no warning has a lot to do with Van Riper preempting the 24 hour ultimatum given at the start of the MC02.
>>64946647So does anybody have a source for the lightspeed motorcycles? Every time I ask here nobody answers or I get pointed to the official report, which says absolutely nothing about any shenanigans Van Riper did. Also it's suspect that he was able to do any of these shit people claim, people imagine he was able to dictate what happens, but that's not how wargames work. It's the judges that decide how things work so if Van Riper says "I send motorcycle couriers", or "I load missiles on speedboats" he doesn't get to decide what happens after that. Yes, that includes the newfangled integrated computer game they were using to wargame the system.
>>64946647Qrd?
>>64955454You can go read an interview with one of the people who was running BLUFOR for the exercise about why Van Ripper thinks he was hamstrung when it was simply training limitations. As to the rest, you're welcome to go Google for a primary source, but essentially what he did was use his radios like normal, but when the USN pointed out they'd have destroyed, jammed, and intercepted them, he went "nuh uh, they're motorcyle couriers" like a fucking 12 year old telling you about how he's actually wearing an invisible bullet proof vest.https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2002/09/mil-020917-dod01b.htm
>>64955197>They literally wouldn't have needed REDFOR at all if they just wanted to do some scripted drills.Stop being a fucking tool. As explained multiple times in this thread, the simulation included not just a wargame but also live training exercises and even a live fire component with aircraft stationed at Nellis AFB.It would be like trying to run a D&D campaign while the participants have to suit up and do some HEMA sparring at the local park to decide battle outcomes and there's someone riding a horse to simulate how long it takes for the characters to travel from town to town. Sounds like a fucking mess, right? Now imagine one player is trying to be an asshole and making things even more inconvenient.Scripted drills can be done in any training exercise independently.>The OPFOR has the ability to win here.And like others mentioned, if you read the actual report the conclusion states that BLUFOR lost and OPFOR won in several objectives. But all you focus on is the "reeeee the fleet was refloated reeeeee muh K/D ratio" and not the actual review that concedes that OPFOR is resilient and can still maintain informational control and political credibility in their country.
>>64955576The funny thing about that interview is that it says nothing about all the made-up fantasy memes e.g.>lightspeed motorcycles>silkworms on speedboatsabout what Van Riper didWhat it does say is that the initial simulation was retarded because they they decided to set the simulation's positions as the same as the fleet's real life position right next to the coast, which naturally meant they got BTFO at close range. Now I'm not defending Van Riper's tantrum, because obviously after that, you have to reset the simulation and put the simulated fleet in its proper position.And as previously pointed out, Van Riper doesn't get to decide what his orders do, if he goes "nuh uh, they're motorcyle couriers" they can just tell him to fuck off and tell his units to pretend they didn't hear him and switch off their radios.
>>64955727>There's a drill component and therefore it's justified that the wargame component should be completely ignored>And the guy we begged to come out of retirement to command for the wargame component should be thrown out on his ass because it was a drill and not a wargame
>>64955492Infamous US military guy who is known for raising extreme alarm bells Tha x country could defeat the USA, and when people dug into how he came up with that, it was found that he effectively cheated in multiple war games. The most infamous being when he came up with a strategy in which Iran would have a bajillion speed boats with ship destroyer weapons jury rigged into to them able to take down a aircraft carrier because he says so
>>64955446>I see why he was frustratedHe had to reason to. He should have understood the purpose of MC02 and feigning ignorance simply makes him look worse. He came in with a bone to pick and decided to be a party pooper with the "you have activated my trap card" antics.>Van Riper's tactics were broadly within the bounds of the simulationAnd the bounds of the simulation were not properly set. Maybe they should have thought about edge cases beforehand, but maybe they never expected someone trying to exploit the limits of the system. Because they had largely dealt with reasonable people until Van Riper showed up.Again, Van Riper is not an innocent party in this mess. He came in with ulterior motives. Anyone else would have understood the limitations of the wargame and ran the exercise as smoothly as possible instead of pushing personal agendas.>I see why the decision was made to restart the exerciseThis is the least controversial part even though it's played up to be the most damning. If I schedule a week long exercise and you die in the first day, fuck you you're resetting and doing it again. I'm not sending you packing so you can spend the rest of the week jerking off. Even worse if there's multiple branches and actual real ships and aircraft involved in this circus.If you read enough about military exercises you'll realize they can easily turn on the bullshit meter to fuck over BLUFOR and kill them over and over again until they come up with a solution. Depends on what the purpose of the exercise is.>I think it's likely that the reason we haven't seen a single Iranian speedboat in this entire war is because they made the entrances to the speedboat tunnels a priority target in the first dayHouthis tried to use speedboats and they were picked off by aircraft via Hellfire/APKWS/gun. They really couldn't get close to USN ships because of helicopters patrolling above.
Shouldnt wargames cover wacky scenarios tho?
>>64955750No shit, a fellow brass isn't going to go to the press and call him a cheating retard, that would be unprofessional, which is part of the reason Van Ripper doing so was particularly retarded. Here's a USNI article talking about his usage of motorcyle couriers, as well as the rest of things, though once again, it's not going to slam him for being a cheating retard. https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2002/october/world-naval-developments-war-game-raises-questionsIf you go read Van Riper's book, he talks about his usage of motorcycle couriers and other systems, some of which were smart like coded messages in the daily prayer broadcast, but also some that were clearly ex-post facto nuh-uhs to valid points raised by USN leadership when he got caught.
>>64955786>This is the least controversial part even though it's played up to be the most damning.Except I'm the only one here arguing in favor of Van Riper and I'm not playing it up at all. He was doing his job for the wargame portion and if the scenario as set up was stupid, that's not on him. He shouldn't have thrown a fit when the wargame was ended early when he effectively won.
Van Riper? More like Van Nigger
>>64955797Again, you are posting yet another link to an article that says nothing about lightspeed motorcycles. All it does is mention he used motorcycle couriers and even praises him for thinking up the tactic. Do you even read these articles or are you just looking for links on the internet and pretending they say anything relevant?
>>64955826Are you dumb? Do you have short term memory damage?>any shenanigans Van Riper didYou just got more then a few mentions of them in the original interview, and then moved the goalpost to specifically the motorcycle couriers being lightspeed which isn't going to be brought out in a public setting for the reasons I explained, but we both know that I link a second hand source that actually does substantiate it, you'll decry it as false and demand an original source. Go Google it yourself if you really want to spend the time tracking down the original sources which are going to be unofficial statements at best because no one except Van Riper was so unprofessional as to go the media and make on the record statements about this.
>>64955780>it's justified that the wargame component should be completely ignoredWargames by necessity require a lot of hypotheticals.Being asked to compress the timeline of a SEAD campaign is not even top 10 in the suspensions of disbelief you're required to engage in to participate in a wargame.>And the guy we begged to come out of retirementYou do understand that the military is kind of a big organization and a few people who like you and ask you to come and take part on an exercise doesn't mean they're the same people acting as umpires and later dismiss you in interviews about the nontroversy, right?You're trying to make this look like a big social faux pas but you're only succeeding in making me feel old, because I can't believe I have to give you fatherly advice on a Nepalese ice climbing messageboard and explain that sometimes you may be invited to events and gatherings by one person who likes you but for whatever reason you'll feel out of place - because it turns out only *that* person likes you. Now if you try to throw a tantrum you'll actually make the person who invited you look bad. To everyone else, they never fucking saw you, they didn't ask you to be there, and you decided to ruin their night.I don't know the names of the people who managed to write-in Van Riper as an OPFOR commander but you're assuming:a) they knew beforehand he'd act like a fucking assholeb) they were part of the game masters or umpire team who made the decisionsFor all I know, the people who brought Van Riper in were completely innocent and wouldn't have believed he'd try to throw a wrench in the exercise nor were they hypocrites who used umpire powers to restrict his actions. In the end Van Riper made them look bad.
>>64955789If the purpose is to be wacky, yes.There was a series of BFM exercises of F-5s vs F-14s. The F-14 is completely overpowered compared to F-5s so the umpires restricted technology and tactics on the Tomcat pilots and the F-5s would start scoring kills. Then the Tomcat pilots would develop a counter, rack up kills, and the umpires would restrict that counter and put the F-5s on the lead again.I don't have a 100% accurate retelling of how it went on but basically the F-14s used BVR to engage F-5s. Then the umpires declared the ROE required visual confirmation. F-5s started winning in close range fights. So the F-14 pilots would split up, one would get visual on the F-5s but instead of trying to furball he'd simply confirm the visual according to ROE and the second Tomcat would blast the F-5s from BVR. The Tomcats started winning so the umpires told them they couldn't use that tactic and run it again. This went on for like 5-6 iterations.Things CAN get wacky if the purpose is to force creativity and problem solving.If you got the Navy, Marines and Air Force coordinating exercises to test "net-centric warfare" and other high level concepts, you really shouldn't try to fuck it up for everyone involved.
>>64955859>I don't know the names of the people who managed to write-in Van Riper as an OPFOR commanderIt was General William F. Kernan, head of USJFCOM, the person in direct command of the entire exercise.
>>64948025>People of the Philippines, I have retard.
>>64955826>lightspeed motorcyclesBecause at no point has anyone ever claimed that he literally said he was using motorcycles that travel at the speed of light. The claim is that van Riper said he used motorcycle couriers to transmit information and orders he failed to account for the latency issues that would create. Hence "lightspeed motorcycles."
>>64956210>The claim is that van Riper said he used motorcycle couriers to transmit information and orders he failed to account for the latency issues that would create.Are you committed to this statement, locking it in as your final answer?
>>64955847>He used motorcycle couriersis very different from>Those motorcycles were lightspeed.My demand for a source for these lightspeed couriers is my very first sentence, so you're the one with short term memory damage here. It's clear my "shenanigans" means dishonest bullshit, and not a "oops, I did a neat trick from WW2 teehee">You just got more then a few mentions of them in the original interviewYour first link says nothing at all about motorcycles> but we both know that I link a second hand source that actually does substantiate it.Your second link actually praises Van Riper for innovative tactics and beating up BLUFOR! It just says Van Riper uses motorcycle couriers, which everybody already knows and is not contentious at all.So you're a liar as well as senile. Well done. Neither link of these make any claim about lightspeed motorcycles at all. I am awaiting your 4th link.>>64956210So have you got a source he did this? I'm still waiting. As I've said, there's nothing stopping the control team from just telling Van Riper to fuck off and telling his units to ignore him.
>>64956222>you're not allowed to hit the LZ with chem weapons because we've only got 3 days to practice and if you did, we'd just wait it out irl>FUK U, YOUR GONNA GET A BILLION MUHREENS KILLED IN A REAL WAR, SOMEONE CALL CNNYea, you're not being disingenuous at all by calling that a neat trick from WWII.
>>64956231Look buddy, all I'm asking is a source for lightspeed motorcycles and all your goalpost sliding and fake links that don't actually give me the information I'm looking for isn't going to change that.
>>64956249The internet is right there, anon. Either do the research yourself or believe whatever makes you feel better at night. You could even go pirate Van Riper's book he wrote about the topic as well as digging into some of the primary sources, but that'd take work instead of just being smug and retarded
>>64956293So you really got nothing. I accept your concession.I mean I get it, I really do. Just repeating a phrase over and over again made your smoothbrain accept it as truth. Years of simple repetition has left you convinced, even though no one ever provided you any proof. Now that you're asked for one, the best you can do is this. It's quite sad really.
>>64956249anon, Riper never said verbatim "light speed motorcycles", he was just handwaving his radio transmissions as untraceable courier motorcycles without any extra consideration. Why are you so assmad?
>>64956325Have you got a source for that?
>>64956325Thank you Captain Obvious, I never would had guessed Van Riper didn't literally have magic motorcycles.
frag out
GEN Van Riper here ,Great discussion fellas , lets keep it CIVIL,----Semper Fi@1776@
>>64955492He was an operational genius whose penchant for unorthodox innovation allowed him to defeat the US in wargames while role playing as third world nations. The US rejected the results of the wargame, tried to bury and over them up, and forced him to redo the wargame while following a script that ensured he would lose, and then blackballed his career for making them look bad. His moral courage so great that he waged a relentless campaign to raise public awareness of the injustice and risk at great personal cost, but to no avail, and today no one knows his story.The result of this is that the US military was weakened in the 21st century and has since lost several carrier battlegroups and command of the ocean with them. History will eventually vindicate him and put his name alongside the other heroes of unorthodoxy in the US military who presaged its decline and tried to set us on a better course like Pierre Sprey, James Burton, Mike Spark and Tyler Weaver.
>>64956339
>>64956339We got ourselves a slider.
>>64956339Who is tyler weaver?And why was nothing ever named for Ridgway? will the next heavy armored vehicle be named for schwarzkopf?
>>64956334>Comms delays were approximated>Magazine depletion was notVan Riper did nothing wrong.
>>64956222>unsurprisingly, the proofs?posting scumbag defending Van Riper is also a disingenuous cuntthis is a Mongolian basket-weaving forum. it's enough proof to know that the info is in the book Van Riper wrote. nobody's going to write you a direct quote nicely formatted in APA style. you are free to disbelieve, your opinion means shit. all opinions here mean shit.>there's nothing stopping the control team from just telling Van Riper to fuck off and telling his units to ignore himVan Riper's main gripe was that the control team did exactly this by overruling the "results" that he achieved by gaming a flawed system. he wasn't accusing BLUFOR, he was accusing the umps, the US military, of "cheating" because the control team told him to fuck off.the fact that you don't seem to understand this points towards YOU being either a liar or senile. which is it?
>>64956358>tyler weaverA national hero who fearlessly and frankly speaks truth to power.
>>64956305Google it, dumbass.
>>64956326
>>64956659>>64956669>>64956703So, how about that source for lightspeed motorcycles? Oh, still none? Okay then.
>>64956730See:>>64956701
>>64956730why not go further and verify that whatever source was posted wasn't lying?and then ask for further proof that the evidence put forward to prove that the original source wasn't lying is itself not faked?you could proofpost your way all the way down to Munchausen's trilemmabut reality is that you don't rate that level of effortheck, if you were on fire, I wouldn't piss on you to put you out, let alone attempt to change your obstinate mind on thisnot even if you mocked me and dared me to shit in your mouth just to put out the flamesBurn.
>>64956730You know, I set out to disprove you, but I basically agree about the specifics of the motorbikes now. I think it's an overegged claim. Though in general the entire scenario of the pre-emptive naval attack does clearly rely on communication capabilities that couldn't exist in the form used (in terms of the combination of security, bandwidth and latency) along with the disposition of the naval forces being a sim-ism.
>>64946753>Be me>Retired Wizards of the Coast employee.>Go to Magic the Gathering tournament>Play card called "Ultimate Victory">It causes your opponent to immediately forfeit>Tournament official says it's "not a real card" just because I drew it with a crayon on a piece of a McDonald's bag during the middle of my turn>I get kicked out, go home, and make a bunch of forum posts in all caps saying the other players rigged the tournament because they're jealous of how smart I am and accusing my former bosses of a cover up to protect booster pack sales.>I am a martyr for truth and definitely not bitter about never getting a fourth star on my performance reviews.
>>64946797Yet here we are a quarter century later and IRGC speed boats still don't mount 3-ton, 25ft-long Silkworm AShMs>>64946758>misinterpretingHe was told his side's radio messages would be at risk of being jammed or intercepted by the Blue Force so he said he could send signals via traffic lights that had zero time delay and unlimited bandwidth and were immune to EW and couldn't be detected and the entire coast he was defending was covered by traffic lights from end to end with no interruptions in line of sight between them. And obviously, the only way to simulate this capability in the exercise was for Red Force to use their radios but without Blue Force being allowed to jam or intercept them. Which is one heck of an 'interpretation' of the rules.>>64946987Please explain how you can use signal flags to replicate a Link 16 data transmission.
>>64946647Generally exercises are setup up to be shit for BLUFOR and easy for OPFOR. And No he was not a hack, it was viable tactics for the time being. Now communications, ISR, are far better. Drones are a thing too. Technology and tactics go hand in hand, and he was able to exploit his end better than BLUFOR.
>>64962809IRGC speedboats do mount the same Qader and Nasr AShMs as equipped on them during the exercise though.
>>64956912>the entire scenario of the pre-emptive naval attack does clearly rely on communication capabilities that couldn't exist in the form used (in terms of the combination of security, bandwidth and latency)No it doesn't, since the missiles involved don't require and could not benefit from a real-time datalink or target illumination. They just need a bearing that will take them within a 12 mile radius of any ship in the battlegroup and a signal to launch (which could be as simple as a pre-determined time an hour or two before the expiration of the 24-hour ultimatum).
>>64963031>They just need a bearingAnd how will the motorcycle couriers reach every speedboat with the correct bearing without making mistakes?
>>64963408They don't have to, because they don't exist. Van Riper didn't insist on FTL motorcycles, it was a fundamental assumption of the scenario that REDFOR would have some sort of unusual uninterceptable communications, of which motorcycle couriers were one potential method among several, and while the simulation wasn't designed to account for communications lag, Van Riper's team approximated it by delaying their own communications.
>>64955826>he used motorcycle couriersExcept he didn't. He used radios and SAID they were motorcycle couriers without implementing latency or bandwidth restrictions to simulate the fact motorcycles aren't made of photons
>>64963408Ye of little faith!
Can someone explain to me what the actual war game looks like?Is it something they play on some kind of computer with digital assets?Some sources seem to imply they use real assets to some degree.
>>64948926>it was both, but I personally maintain the motorcycle couriers was the most egregious powergaming move he madeThe version I heard was that he wanted to use underground cables but the simulation didn't support that so they hacked it in with lightspeed motorbikes.
>>64965043Both. That was kind of why it was such a big deal. Because this way, you could have a marine task force at 29 palms, a carrier group off the coast of Norfolk, and a SSGN in Hawaii all doing live fire training and pretend it’s all happening in Unnamed Middle East Country in real time.
>>64963570>FTL motorcyclesI just asked how are motorcycles handing the message to speedboats. I'm assuming they're also far enough away from the coast to not see light signals or flags.>>64964803Precisely.>>64965043It's a mix. Real ships were engaged by simulated speedboats on the computer, there were real F-16s firing real Maverick missiles at real targets set in a bombing range to pretend they were part of the fight, etc.
