What is the actual use case for 5.7?
>>64953889Shooting out light bulbs.
>>64953889killing people wearing body armour within 100M from concealable or small weapons with high capacity magazines.
>>64953889High capacity low recoil centerfire
>>64953893nah that will always be 22lr
>>64953889You get 9mm performance in a gun that has less recoil and can also shoot a cf 22lr equivalent. Projectiles are pretty much all superior as well but the downside is the floor cost is higher than 9.It's a great woods gun. I hunt with mine and have supers to handle hogs.
*pew!**pew!**pew!**bang!*Hehe, got em!
>>64953898>>64953907>>64953908so the KP50 SBR is a good idea for home defense?
There isn't.It and HK 4.6×30 were each designed specifically for a 1990 NATO requirement for a military weapon that was never mass-adopted.Each of the developers of those weapons and cartridges have tried to save face / sunk cost for four decades since then with various sales efforts, in the case of FN and their 5.7 with various handguns chambered in that round.Neither round would even exist on planet Earth if it weren't for the 1990 NATO mil requirement that never fully panned out (and was only ever adopted by a select few specOps and LE agencies)
>>64953917No. The entire point of the Five-seveN is rifle trajectory with 9mm performance out of a handgun. If you get a rifle get it in 5.56.Niw a p90 with frt is a compelling intermediate but I definitely won't be auto mag dumping anyone and wanting to end up in court over it.
>>64953917If it goes>bang bangOr>pew pewThen odds are it is.
>>64953933>won't be auto mag dumping anyone and wanting to end up in court over itDepends on the state.
>>64953933so i should get a KelTec PR-5.7 for home defence?
Originally developed for compact, high-capacity weapons that could also defeat body armor. It succeeded, but then it got overblown and overmarketed because Fabrique Nationale wants money.
only popular because of this dumbass show
>>64953943Did you know you literally can't mag dump the Keltec 5.7 pistol?
>>64953951>dumbass showopinion discarded
>>64953889It was an attempt to SMG's issued to backliners who don't need a real rifle, 5.7mm is not supposed to compete with 5.56mm but 9mm which it outranges and out penetrates. It mostly failed because modern rifles are not as cumbersome as bolt action and battle rifles so you can issue someone a short barreled rifle with a folding stock and a few light weight mags of 5.56mm and call it a day without having to introduce a new pattern of weapon or new cartridge. So the current actual use case is convincing regular people to buy it because militaries won't.
>>64953943Yes but only because I benefit from poorfags buying meme guns in a cartridge they can't afford to shoot. If you actually want something viable, the Five-seveN is your only option.
>>64953889being a hipster
>more capacity than 9mm>lighter than 9mm>higher muzzle velocity than 9mm>similar lethality as 9mm>benefits more from carbine length barrels than 9mm>what is the use caseTo be the ultimate pistol caliber of course.
>>64954162Looks cool, so I buy it. And now that PS90s have an FRT I'm happy as a clam.
grifting governments that have more money than sense.
>>64953898>killing peopleShould have been enough.
>>64953943nah get a mp5.the courts won't prosecute you for sideways liability for home defense if you demonstrate how sick the hk slap is.
>>64953951You're the only dumbass here
>>64953889P90 firing full auto.
>>64953898>but what kind of body armor?>definitely not the late 80s Soviet kind>proven to NOT pen that even at point blank rangeJust admit Fort Hood was where these peaked.I mean seriously, lubricated casing?What is this, WW1 Italy?
>>649538891980s Russian body armor.
>>64953889Exposing 9mm metafag hypocrisy. Thier argument is always >projectile size doesn't matter>capacity is the only thing that mattersThen you post a cartridge that by that logic should be superior to 9mm, and you get>no STOPPAN POWAH>no one needs more than 15-17 roundsand the real reason >waaah it's too expensive I wouldn't even care if you didn't want to pay a premium for diminishing returns from a performance standpoint or something, or you didn't like the handful of guns available in 5.7, but using those first two arguments in favor of 9mm vs any cartridge larger than it, and then disregarding them when talking about a cartridge that fits those criteria better just makes one's argument seem disingenuous.
>>64954921>waaah it's too expensiveI was following until this. Fuck off nigga. I'm sick of you retards who come on here and pretend CPR doesn't matter like you're rich. There aren't any richfags on here you faggot, rich people don't waste time on a hellhole site that is mostly angsty broke 20 somethings arguing from their perches atop mt stupid. Cost of a round matters, especially when you keep a stock and have several guns.
making money
>>64955008Did you stop reading there? I don't disagree with you that price matters, I just find it annoying when people aren't open about it being a primary motivation in picking a caliber. Not wanting to pay double per for slightly better round is fine as long as you're honest about the reason and aren't acting like those slight improvements don't exist. The thing that bothers me is people using one set of arguments when talking about rounds that are bigger than 9mm and then disregarding them when faced with a round that fits their criteria for a "good round" better than 9mm does. Usually those types don't bring up price until you press them about it, when if they had mentioned it from the start like you, people would see it as a perfectly fair argument.
>>64953889It's a proper varmint round here in Mexico
5.7 40gr fmj is the ultimate self defense round for america because you can penetrate the fat armor of obese criminals where 9mm falls short. people always think about soft armor not being common but it's actually the most common armor in the form of obesity.
>>64955120What I find funny and alluded to earlier is that the base 5.7 load mogs 115gr fmj 9mm. It's more ofc but it performs more similar to a lower end 9mm hp load. Taken into account it's not THAT much more expensive and like you say it's a pay to play sort of thing.5.7 completely replaced 9mm for me. Min maxed my way to wanting a 44 mag revolver now.
>>64953889Varmint hunting and poking future astronauts full of holes whenever they decide to venture into other peoples' residences to liberate their TVs.
>>64953917I don't recommend anyone relying on a Kel-Tec gun for self-defense.
>>64953943Get the PSA Rock 5.7 instead.
>>64953893Can do that just fine with an airgun pellet.
>>64953889>Having to post it next to lol9mm to make it seem less pathetic by comparisonEvery time I shoot .45, 10mm, or .357 and go back to 9mm it feels like a fucking popgun. No wonder the average police shooting involves double digit round counts. I can't even imagine deciding to downgrade even further to a spicy .22.
>>64953889Its a bullet and you can shoot people with it. It exists so people can argue why it exists.
>>64953889you make a living by driving a cash van for Garda
dabbing on poorfags at the range
>>64955128A couple layers of clothing then a mass of fat does pretty good to stop a bullet and also plug wounds, meaning even fatal shots still have them fighting for a couple minutes
>>64953889556 shortened pistol version
You are coping and seething op, just buy it fren
>>64953889alternate ammunition type for vidya
>>64953889>lubed casingLOL>j-just keep it clean ok?!?!LMAO
>>64956867t low caste poorfag bastardkys
It outperforms 9mm in a lot of ways but ideally it fits into a sub platform. PCC backpack guns have been getting shilled pretty hard lately and that seems like it’s best use case. The only real downsides are in a pistol platform small hands struggle with the ergonomics and in a PCC you can often get 5.56 rifles in similar size. Honestly I think Springfield is fucking up bigly by not offering the Kuna in 5.7 but what else is new.
>>64953889Fantasies and plinking.>>64953907>You get 9mm performance lmao>>64953932Correct.>>64953951The show was great, but they should have stuck with MP5s or gone for M4s.
>>64954786But the heckin wound vectors and 50rd mags!
>>64953889For this badboy.
I'd say give P90s with AP ammo to pilots who are flying in areas where body armor is present. Outside of unicorn logistics cases a carbine version of your country's service rifle is simply better for POGs
>>64953889You can pack more into a mag and they're more effective against kevlar-only vests.
>>64953893Good work Fisher
>>64954921>>64954207>>64954162So it's a super 9mm?
>>64958781No, it's worse than 9mm.>inb4 muh Ft. Hood mufugga
>>64958794Fot Hud muggafug
>>64958848Still mogged in killcount by a chinaman with a 9mm and .22
>>64953893I want a threaded barrel for mine but>$385
>>64953889min maxed SMG round that also kind of fills a niche as a light rifle round like .22 hornet or a plinker on steroids
Carrying twice as much ammo for the same weight. That's the only thing remotely interesting about the cartridge. 9mm can already defeat 3A armor with certain bullets and is otherwise superior in every conceivable way.
>>64954921Based marisa / 5.7 poster.
>>64957237HS Produkt doesn't manufacture a 5.7 Kuna and 5.7 is so much longer than 9mm that the gun would probably need a substantial redesign to fit it. Easy to see why Springfield can't offer a Kuna in 5.7: it will never exist.
>>64958892>9mm can already defeat 3A armor with certain bullets and is otherwise superior in every conceivable way.Are these bullets made in the United States?
>>649538895.7 is a failed experiment. In real world use it was less lethal even when the shot count was over 4 times that of all other handgun calibers. The 22lr is demonstrably more lethal in use to humans than the 5.7.
>>64958860Offices vs auditoriums, obviously VT should get a higher count.
>>64959161>The 22lr is demonstrably more lethal in use to humans than the 5.7lollmao even
>>64959161Explain, using the known laws of physics, how this could possibly be true.
>>64959161>The 22lr is demonstrably more lethal in use to humans than the 5.7.Nigga, you are retarded. Excuse yourself from this thread.
>>64959179Why use theory when we can observe the results of use?All other handgun calibers used on humans kill more of the people hit. Period. Fact. Reality. The 5.7 was an epic failure. It's wound to kill ratio is less than that of the 22lr on humans. Just doesn't work. It's shit. It's retard level. A 6 year old girl has more energy in her slap than the 5.7 brings to the table. It's momentum is heinous. It's a joke. It's diameter is tiny. It in its best clothing just pokes a tiny hole. It's like trying to needle someone to death. It's silly.
>>64959197Show an example of a shooting where the 5.7 had a higher wound to kill ratio than the 22lr. I'll wait. You can't.
>>64959161What's your methodology here? Compare how many niggers were shot with 22lr vs 5.7?
>>64959216Jesus fucking Christ, look at ballistic gelatin testing, you absolute mongoloid. Get a fucking trip so we can block your retarded ass.
>>64959230Ballistic gel is not a human analog. It is a controlled medium. The human body does not react like gel. There are many different tissues with differing stretch capacities. Most handguns do not surpass the stretch capacities of these tissues in any meaningful way. Handguns poke holes. Sometimes they hit bone and cause fragmentation and tumbling wounds as secondary wounding.In pork and other meats shot with the 5.7 unless it hits bone the wound is minimal. Even when it does hit bone the secondary wounding is usually the diameter and length of a adult thumb. The 5.7 does not bring anything meaningful to the table.
>>64959211Right so you're citing magic as the cause then.
>>64959230We can go deeper into this if you want? The 5.7 sacrificed weight and diameter for velocity. Like air resistance of flesh increases in a nonlinear way. Massively increasing velocity for a small amount of energy means a lot of that energy is simply "shed" in the impact exchange. As there was not enough energy to overcome stretch capacities to begin with you are left with minimal momentum. To overcome this dilemma the 5.7 uses bullet design and construction to maximize penetration leaving one with...lil tiny holes.Fuck you, I'm right you are gay.
>>64959249I'm pointing out that in every mass shooting, police and news report the 5.7 has a lower chance of killing per hit than every other handgun round ever. Significantly lower. So low I wonder who out there is dumb enough to buy this shit. Then I met you. Now I know. You are this dumb.
>>64958996Fair point. Counter point. A Kuna in 5.7 would be fucking sick tho.
>>64953904Far more .22WRM.
>>64959255You still haven't provided a single evidence to your claims, and no, statistics comparing the amount of people killed by 22LR to the amount of people killed by 5.7 aren't valid because the amount of 22LR guns in the hands of the people is infinitely greater than the amount of 5.7 guns. Also, you're a moronic faggot. Not a single police department in the US has ever adopted submachine guns chambered in 22LR in the past 40 yrs and yet several SWAT units throughout the country have adopted the P90. I supposed they must all be retards then.
>>64954325The nogunz really do seethe, don't they?
Only complaint I have about my FN five seven is that you can't fire without a mag inserted so dry firing is annoying. might buy snap caps
>>64953933If you’re a /k/omrade living in a state where you think magdumping a home invader will get you in trouble, you should move. I don’t understand how anyone who’s the type to frequent this board could possibly find themselves living their adult life in a place like CA, NY, or IL. I am a prosecutor in a deep red state and I would not dream of filing a homicide or aggravated battery charge against someone who was woken up in the middle of the night by a burglar and shot him. I would need to see EXTREMELY compelling evidence of malfeasance by a homeowner to file something (text messages luring the deceased person onto the property, video footage depicting a shot into the back of a drunk person who just had the wrong address, et cetera). Get out, NOW, of any state where your public servants are so retarded as to persecute people for protecting their families from predatory subhumans.
>>64953933>>64959859Also, to a conservative prosecutor or juror, the perception of capable weapons (in addition to the perception of self defense more broadly) follows a completely different dynamic. I am perhaps less likely to draw negative inferences about one’s character or judgment if his home defense weapon choice was rational and suggestive of someone who adds value to society rather than something a crackhead or volatile idiot would use. A P90 SBR with a silencer and an FRT is an extremely patrician choice that stands in contrast with the million obviously criminal acts I’ve seen future doctors and engineers commit using rusty hood Tauruses and bubbashit. Unless I have compelling reasons to think the P90 user is some kind of Patrick Bateman character or organized crime hitman, the appearance of such a gun in the evidence locker works in his favor from my perspective. Moreover, even if I DO think he’s Patrick Bateman or a hitman, the guy nevertheless has every right to defend his home in my state and it would take a lot of highly damning information for me to conclude that that wasn’t what he was doing. Using a literal PERSONAL DEFENSE WEAPON is not such information.
I'd unironically use it for home defense if it didn't keep fucking light striking. Open to suggestions, think maybe the RA140 drop in might be the problem but I dunno.>not pictured: my toesies woesies :3
>>64959741Disable the mag safety?
>>64959741So if you accidentally drop the mag in a stressful situation you don't even have the round in the chamber to buy you some time
>>64960109didn't know you could do that. Cool
>>64954921>>64955120The cost is usually the cope excuse. The terminal performance is what really makes them uncomfortable, THAT'S the one they don't admit to, but then they'd have to own up to their bullshit they've been peddling.They use the price as an easy cop-out, which is inconsistent with their usual behavior when they waste loads of money buying a new borderline identical PSA or Glock every month, or getting a cheapshit 1911 they're never gonna shoot or swapping out optics for the 60th fucking time. They could forego the dopamine hit they get from a single paycheck's worth of CONSOOMING and they'd be able to afford plenty of 5.7.For self defense purposes 5.7 is really not as monetarily demanding as claimed, because you can still do most of your practice with 9mm and it will have good cross transference since 5.7 has less recoil. Not only that, but since 5.7 is easier to control, you don't even need the same amount of practice to achieve the same practical accuracy.>>64955128Soft armor penetration is not the same as tissue penetration, 35 gr VMAX out of a 5.56 will easily penetrate kevlar vests but you'd be lucky to achieve 7" of penetration in muscle.The layer of fat over the thoracic cavity is not an insurmountable obstacle for 9mm JHP, you need to actually aim at the thoracic cavity though and fat mass makes the vital organ target area look much bigger than it actually is.
>>64960740And that’s not to say that cost is never a valid reason, I have no idea what situation >>64955008 is in for example, but it’s not a great reason for a lot of 9mm NPCs.
>>64960042ooh, you actally have one? how is it?
>>64960042It's like if a Bizon and a P90 had a bastard child that wished AR was his read dad
>>64959859>>64953933get one of these, if they claim you mag dumped, point out that your gun doesn't have magazines
>>64960822I quite like it, feels bad burning $100 on a range trip. Like I said, I'm getting light strikes but a google told me that's something endemic to ra140s. So I guess I have an excuse to binary it. I don't think that I'll frt it, i dont feel like messing with the extra bit they sell to make it suoer safety compatible. It's light, very light. Unloaded it feels like nothing, most of the weight is in the mag. It is a bit snappier than expected but recoil is a fucking joke.
>>64959144Yes. There's American made 9mm copper projectiles of various kinds, including hollowpoints, which cut through 3A with little issue, and do much better wounding afterwards, rather than 5.7mm's paltry icepicking after defeating armor.
>>64959216Stopping power is a meme. Shot placement is king.
>>64962193Who said anything about stopping POWER? Diameter, wound channel volume, depth, amount of tissue damaged, number of veins arteries capillaries opened, volume of blood loss, organ damage by percentage, all the main contributing factors in fainting and death. Damage to central nervous system being the most important for an instant stop.>Shot placement is kingThis is what people with no experience and no real argument to back their claims say. A large man can be shot in the chest with a 5.7 using one bullet and have a flesh wound 3 inches deep that never reaches a vital organ stopping on the rib or with rib damage. A large man can be shot with a different 5.7 bullet and have a small hole in his heart. That hole is smaller that holes that people with disease, injury, hereditary issues walk around with every day. You do know that mammals can not only live but carry on with relatively small holes, clogged arteries and the like right?That same shot placement on that large man with every commonly made expanding of fmj pistol bullet in 9mm, 40sw, 45 ACP and almost every other single common handgun round will reliably pass through the heart from that same angle. They will damage more veins, arteries and capillaries. The total wound volume will be larger. The blood loss will be greater. The percentage of organ tissue damage will be greater. The damage and depths after striking rib will be greater.Shot placement doesn't mean shit when you pick a retarded meme caliber that by design either dumps everything it has in 3 inches or just zips through leaving a tiny it size hole.In short, you are an imbecile. All ballistic facts support the 5.7 being shit. All real shootings show the 5.7 is shit. Literally every fact from every angle screams the 5.7 is too small, too light, not enough energy, not enough momentum, not enough damage, everything says the 5.7 is a dumb choice for use on humans.And yet here you sit. King of the retards. On top of dip shit mountain.Fuckyou
I like 5.7 and trust it with my life and the people around me that I care about.
>>64962629Sucks to be the people you care about. Using a squirrel round for sd
>>64962629You obviously aren't a hunter...
>>64962629I'm not saying 5.7 is unacceptable but this level of wound trauma really isn't that impressive. I've seen photos and heard accounts of far worse damage from other calibers, ranging from deer hearts that were split in half with .45 ACP to straight up obliterated with 5.56, you can sometimes see increased wounding in the heart because the temporary cavity will blow it out if the chambers are filled with blood. If his deer are running 100 yards then he's a shit shot, he's shit at ammo selection, or he's getting very unlucky.
The facts hurt some feelings>Basically every relevant country in NATO, except Germany, said the bog standard load was superior to 9mmFACT>It has less recoil than 9mmFACT>The trajectory is superiorFACT>It's as quiet as a 22lr when using subsonic rounds yet has the performance benefit of a jacketed spritzer round that's center-fireFACT>It's legal to use on game in areas where other center-fire calibers above 22 are prohibitedFACT>It makes people madFACT>The loaded pistol is lighter than an unloaded GlockFACTBasically it's better in every way which is why people seethe.
>>64963585It's almost like you don't understand ballistics at all. Should I point out your own claim proves my claim to the lack of lethality to humans?You are a dumb fuck. Go learn some shit and come back. You went searching with a bias to confirm your pre conceived notion and accidentally showed you were wrong.
>>64963585>FACT>It's legal to use on game in areas where other center-fire calibers above 22 are prohibitedIt's right here when he realized he fucked up
>>64963625>Listen up chud, I'm a bigger nerd than youOk. Weird flex. In the real world guys are killing hogs with this round. It's a fun cartridge you should try it sometime.>>64963629How's that? Being able to download this to 22lr subsonic levels is a massive advantage.
It tumbles, think 5.56.
>>64953898Libtard lie used to get the caliber banned for awhile. It can be had with tungsten inserts but otherwise is no better than other pistol rounds.
What's the best suppressor to use on a Five Seven?
>>64963839You can get by on a 22, but 556 will last longer
every argument for 9mm vs .45ACP can also be made for 5.7 vs 9mm
>>64963822Barely.
>>649610175.7 and it's older sister the 7.62 tok are weird rounds. Both of them are SMG rounds someone squeezed into a pistol and it makes hilarious amounts of muzzle flash and report but it barely moves in your hand
The actual use case it was designed for was to give rear-eschelon troops armed with pistols and SMGs a chance at defeating the Russian 6B2 vest issued in 1981, which consisted of a grid of 1.5mm titanium plates backed by Aramid. The problem is that two years later, the Russians started to replace the 6B2 with the 6B3 vest, which quadrupled the thickness of the titanium plates so that it could stop most ball rifle rounds, immediately rendering the whole project pointless.
>>64953889blasting niggers
>>64953889The MP7 seems like the best survival weapon for a downed pilot.
>>64963585>>Basically every relevant country in NATO, except Germany, said the bog standard load was superior to 9mmThis is of dubious value. Military understanding of terminal ballistics was (and is) often in a sorry state, the US military for example used the bogus PI/H standard forever and yurofag countries are even worse due to their historical aversion to using destructive bullets. And ignorance of terminal ballistics is not a virtue.5.7 is faster, lower recoiling, higher capacity, and generally better at penetrating soft armor than 9mm, yes. And according to 9mm fanboys' own logic this should make it the clear winner.>>64963822Most bullets tumble given enough path length. The relatively better performance of e.g. M193 as compared to some other rifle FMJ comes from its tendency to fragment at sufficiently high velocities. The actual tumbling aspect of it really doesn't do much in a lot of tissues.5.7 can fragment to an extent as well, but this is necessarily more limited since it uses lighter bullets that can't shed nearly as much mass before penetration starts dropping to unacceptable levels. Also fragmentation works in concert with temporary cavitation which obviously there's a lot less of with a relatively small pistol round.
Does anyone have any recommendations for P90 mag pouches? Preferably in black
>>64965041No? Easily one of the worst weapons you could possibly give them.A downed pilot needs way more than a 4.6mm sub machine gun. They need to potentially be able to fight off wildlife. Its not just people they have to worry about. An MP7 would be a poor choice for a downed pilot because its a very close range weapon with practically no capability against dangerous game. They also need decent range to engage threats at distance. Thats why they give them the GAU-5/A Aircrew Self Defense Weapon, a foldable 12.5 inch AR with 120 rounds. I would much, much rather have this than an MP7.
>>64965061The real reason it's not as good as 9 is that it's longer and shittier in shorter barrels
>>64965496NTA but while I would absolutely prefer an AR over an MP7, I remain skeptical of that one’s effectiveness against big ornery animals too for similar reasons. Would have been much better if they had chambered it in .300 BLK. I might even rather have something like an MP5 with spicy G9 monolithic coppers or Buffalo Bore hardcast than a short AR in .556 for defense against a huge bear or moose. Light projectiles of any sort are a terrible choice for that.
>>64953917>so the KP50 SBR is a good idea for home defense?No, get a PS90. Also, get good with it because if you miss your target, that fucking round is going to keep going and going and going.
>>64965847No they fucking don't, light fast bullets get wrecked by light cover
>>64965856It's effective range is 200m, more than twice a 9mm, shut the fuck up.
>>64965869Oh so you're talking about randomly yeeting them into the distance? Retarded
>>64965496How many animals made of steel are there where you live? Maybe like an elephant or a rhino could eat a burst from an MP7 but they only live specific areas on two continents unless you're preparing for the pilots to crash into the San Diego Zoo or something
>>64965838>I remain skeptical of that one’s effectiveness against big ornery animals too for similar reasonsYou can kill a grizzly bear with 5.56mm
>>64965847Not necessarily, finocchi makes frangibles for yeeting with reckless abandon>>64966149Bears are scary and have thiccc hides
>>64966368Fiocchi? I dunno, i swap between those and FN's red box which i think is the 197s... i dunno what either looks like on contact with meat desu
>>64965869Maximum effective range through open air and barrier penetration capability are far from the same thing.
>>64966189You can probably kill an enraged meth addict with a dental pick too, but I’m not keen to try. Like I said, I’d gladly take an AR over an MP7, but it leaves a lot to be desired even in contrast with other possible weapons of similar size profile.
>>64966643If you dump 6rds of M193 or M855 into the face of a grizzly it will fucking die on the spot, you inbred mongotard.
>>64966670>posting an image of soft tissue damage to a hominid’s extremity in response to concerns obviously pertaining to adequate penetration of vastly larger and denser bear bones/vitals
>>64966692Bears are not made out of 100% bone.
>>64966692A 10.5" 5.56mm carbine is more powerful than a 6" .44 Magnum revolver.
>>64960016I like the usp it makes me happy and is chambered nicely on braixnem
>>64966670Moreover, that image indicates that the weapon was an M-16. That baby pilot AR is very much not an M-16, and the effectiveness of 5.56 is notoriously sensitive to barrel length reduction.
>>64966712If we mean “power” as in pure kinetic energy = (0.5)(mass)(velocity squared), I have little doubt that you’re right. If we mean “power” as in “the likelihood that your wound channel will include damage to vitals despite a grizzly’s collarbone/shoulderblade/skull/sternum having been struck near its entrance”, then no. While simple high school physics principles are certainly part of the analysis here, they are not everything. Anyone who has real world experience trying to stop a large, aggressive animal with a firearm will encourage you to value simple penetration capability over impressive number crunching results. Ask Tim Sundles, he’ll tell you.
>>64966931Not at the distances where you need to concern yourself with danger from a bear, you absolute neanderthal. You're not exchanging fucking gunfire with it at 150yds uphill.>>64966997Is Tim Sundles regarding the steel penetrator in M855 Ball?
>>64960943It has one magazine.
>>64967668>word salad and name-callingI have no clue what engagement distance has to do with the observation that an image depicting damage to a human arm caused by 5.56 out of a 20-inch barrel doesn’t necessarily say much about the actual topic at hand, which is damage to large animal vitals from 5.56 out of a much shorter barrel.
>>64954162>>64954162>Literally just use a fucking M4A1 Why the fuck do euros always want to reinvent the wheel out of plastic and faggotry?
>>64967982It's not word salad, you'll get lots of penetration and cavitation from a 10.5" barrel at OHSHITABEAR distances.
>>64953893Nice IOM. Here's a tactical.
>>64968192Got any specific accounts of successful defense from megafauna using 5.56 out of a 10.5” barrel? Any range videos simulating such a target? Everyone’s fully aware that 5.56 is devastating against humans even out of a short barrel, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. Unless you can provide some real world basis for your claims, I am content with my original conclusion that a near-identical AR chambered in .300 would be vastly better, and a PCC with certain loads would probably be better too.
>>64965496>>64966368Why exactly would a MP7 not fend of a bear? In terms of penetration no bear hide or muscle is gona stop a MP7 firing standard military roundshttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/322878405_Selected_Issues_of_Lightweight_Bulletproof_Vests_Design_and_Testing>225 layers of Dyeenma SB21 perforated by 4.6mm steel core round>34 layers however would stop 7.62 tokarev and 44mag lead core roundPistols firing bullets that have far less penetration have been used for fending of bears. Even 22lr from a pistol has been used in 7 known defensive use against a bear with 6 being succesfull against black bears while the 7th was unsuccesfull since it was a polar bear, All cases of 9mm being used were succesfull and even a 9x18 mak was used to fend of a brown bear in russia.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoSCqgQdcFI22lr fired from a rifle has even been used for killing a grizzly bear with good shot placement on the skull (30-06 can be deflected by a grizzly skull from the front).https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/08/04/grandma-who-killed-huge-grizzly-with-1-shot-from-22-still-amazes-wyoming-hunters/So how exactly would 4.6mm burst fired from a MP7 not stop a bear? Even at range the MP7 is rated to defeat the CRISAT target at 200 meters and the CRISAT target is a 1.6mm titanium plate backed by 20 layers of kevlar. Unless every bear a downed pilot is gona run into is a pack of starving polar bear then he should have a good survival chance with a MP7.
>>64968447Your ignorance here is the problem. Bears tend to just run off most of the time when they encounter humans. Often even a grizzly or polar bear will just leave. Black and brown bears usually make space when they hear you. Sometimes they charge and making noise will get them to stop and change directions. Some attacks a the sound of shots and being hit a few times make them say fuck it. Those are the reports you are reading in the biased report written by an employee of a company that sells ammo. The fact remains that when a bear is angry, wounded, protecting its young it becomes a different situation. When u loading two magazines of 45 and one of 10mm don't stop the bear chewing on a guy. When man shoots a bear in the head with a 30-06 and a couple hours later it gets up and tries to eat his head. Penetration on bear requires momentum to overcome both friction and bone. You need diameter to create blood loss. You need sectional density and bullet design and construction that favors a straight bath through all parts of the animal. Fur fat muscle and bone a like. A chick once shot a gear in the head with a 22 multiple times and it died. Trained men have been found dead with empty rifles and 9mm pistols years after the fact. But those didn't make the article. Because it's biased. To confirm your choice is just fine. It's not. There is a reason guys like Sundles make minimum suggestions. You should listen instead of being a contrarian faggot.
>>64969445What is a tougher target? A bears hide, muscle and bone or 225 layers of Dyeema SB21? If you cant figure that out then it is hopeless replying to you.Read a book and have a (You).
>>64963839There are a few purpose-built suppressors, like the ecco machine caracal
>>64965720This is honestly the only legitimate criticism I have of the round but 9mm fags screech about literally anything but the one thing 9mm makes sense for. Probably because many of them got memes into 2011s and Roland specials/comped pistols so they don't really appreciate that aspect anyway.
>>64968410>Everyone’s fully aware that 5.56 is devastating against humansDiff anon here, you're just bullshitting now lmaoNot about the effectiveness, but about people being aware of it
I have a very odd and potentially stupid question. But would it be worth the money and time to reload for 5.7? If so then the initial sunk cost would likely pay for itself if you were vigilant about it. The lubricant seems like the biggest hurdle from what I read.
>>64969675Uniform density and friction vs non uniform layers with varying stretch capacities and density. A .30 cal spire point boat tail bullet will deviate in its path through tough skin, dense fat and muscle and thick bone. A 7mm bullet moving at a lower speed with a similar sectional density and a round nose flat base will travel through the same in a straight path with little to no deviation.There are small bullets with high velocity that combined with bullet shape and construction will zip right through body armor. Those same bullets in soft tissues and on bone deviate on path, don't carry they momentum to travel through bone and break up transferring the energy they have left to shallow to stop a large animal.Stopping a bear requires a cns shot. Something that is not remotely easy when it's charging. Outside that to stop dangerous game you need to do the maximum amount of soft tissues, organ and structural damage possible. Wee little bullets do not achieve this. Bullets designed incorrectly do not do this.The formula has been known for a long time. It's quite simple. There are many ways to get there. Your way however is fucking retarded. One can also kill a bear with a pencil. It's possible. You would just be retarded for suggesting it as a viable game plan.(You) Are the retard. I had to point that out because as you are retarded you won't figure that on your own. You also won't accept you are retarded because you are retarded. Retarded people like you don't understand they are retarded. But you are retarded. You fuck peanut butter jars level retarded. Mom puts grit on your hands when you go out retarded. You are all the retarded at once. Retard.
>>64969789>5.56 is devastating against humans5.56 isn't great. It's very unreliable in terminal effect. Often it makes extremely nasty non lethal wounds. Ice picks and shoes minimal damage. In close quarters it leaves a lot to be desired because of this. Even in hunting on deer using some of the best ammo a slight angle and a couple of ribs that normally would be a drt shot with a 243 or 270, 308 ends up being a nasty wound that requires follow up shots and tracking. The combination of high velocity, low mass and small diameter isn't ideal for reliability on 150lb plus game and humans.
>>64969884Slappers Only.
>>64960943It still has a magazine, just not a removable one.
>>64953893Goodnight, Mr. Bean.https://youtu.be/rOrDCpAv-sM
>>64953889Something I've been eyeing 5.7 for is as a hd gun for my wife. Low recoil, ballistically effective, lightweight, easily suppressible, high capacity all seem to make for a perfect woman's hd gun. Thinking of getting the M&P one.
>>64970817>effectiveKek. Don't like your wife Michael?
>>64970817>easily suppressibleDoes anyone make any subsonic loads for it which will cycle, and at that point, what makes that better than .22LR or .380 Auto?Anyway, it has a grip like a 2x4 as far as many women are concerned, and 5.7mm pistols are LOUD.
>>64953889Having lots of ammo in a mag, penetrating armor and leaving the tiniest hole on what's behind it.Pretty much with 9mm that achieves higher than 2,000fps, 5.7 is obsolete. I wouldn't field it, too expensive for low performance and low versatility.
>>64965041>>64965496I'd like one of these,85% scaled down and slightly (not too much except for the caliber/magazines) re-engineeredchambered in HK 4.6×30mm
It is ballistically superior to literally every other handgun round. If it wasn't so goddamn expensive, I'd be mainlining it.
>>64953889>What is the actual use case for 5.7?It's a round specially developed for zookeepers working with chipmunks, who want to be sure they can take at least one of the furry little bastards with them if they ever turn on him.
Makes 9lets seethe
>>64973093.22TCM is better.
>>64965041I'm too poor for the mp7. Making progress on my Ruger 57 chassis. Maybe finished end of this week
>>64973093>literally
>>64973168Worth it for that reason alone.
>>64953889putting holes in things.
>>64953889You have a need for more unintended over penetration from your handgun.
>>64954083This goofy ahh show has like 20+ meta episodes about itself
WOW WHAT A COOL SHOW
FOR FUCKS SAKE
>>64975162>>64975164>>64975165Nigger.
>>64962416>a small hole in his heart>opening to OUTSIDE the heart>not only live but carry onThat away: boards.4chan.org/x/
>>64963585Trying to outdo SIG's entire PR team?
>>64963585While true none of the 5.7 loadings in the US market really take advantage of the gain due to AP laws. So in general while you do get a faster loading than a 9x19 the normal loadings don't perform exceptionally better due to the gimped projectile. 22TCM also suffers from this as do most AP first designs
>>64953943Why buy a handgun for home defense? I’d get a PSA 300 blackout, 8 inch, with a suppressor. Or if you are short on money, a mossberg semi auto 12 gauge SBS with the zero dollar tax form.
>>64973245Making progress for the derp Lego mp7.
>>64976344Srg Diaz, shot in the heart and lung fully recovered. 1987.Mario Cruz. Shot through the heart survived. Dallas shootingEugene rakau shot through the heart with a 3.5 inch nail and lived Rachel Sheppard, shot three times in the chest and lived35 year old suicide attempts suicide in palo alto two .25 caliber bullets through the heartDonald Morehouse. 70 year old Vietnam vet gets surgery and they find he had been shot through the heart in Vietnam and nobody knew it.I know what the fuck I am talking about. Your ignorance of how resilient the human body is is on you. I've got a relative that had a genetic issue who literally had a hole in his heart. Found as a teen.
>>64976344>McClurken and his team found calcified scars from an entry wound from a .29-caliber bullet in Morehouse's left atrium, the upper chamber of the heart, and an exit wound in the right atrium. The bullet appears to have entered through his left shoulder and pierced his heart.>The former infantryman was shot seven times during a Korean War ambush on his 25th Infantry Division unit in June of 1953. Six shots were deflected by his bulletproof jacket. After being shot, Morehouse says he traveled close to three miles on foot before he was taken to a field hospital.Doctors who initially cared for Morehouse told him he was lucky — the bullet, which Morehouse still keeps, had hit his shoulder, but missed his heart. The slug was found lodged in his right side against his bulletproof jacket and was removed by military surgeons.Morehouse, a retired drug and alcohol coordinator for the Pennsylvania United Auto Workers Union, was presented the Purple Heart for Military Merit for his service in Korea.For 48 years, Morehouse says he had no symptoms from is injury — he is an avid golfer and walks his dog three times a day. He notes that last week's bypass is not related to his injury.I'd say he was shot through the heart and carried the fuck on huh?
>>64953889Full-auto deer hunting.
>>64953893Shooting bulbheads
Making faggots seethe over its "unattainability", forcing them to endlessly argue over it's "poor performance" out of pure cope
>>64969849That, and neck seperation, pocket blowouts, and being a tiny case make it a real bitch
>>64953889long range shots with a handgun (100m+)
>>64953889I don't know and I don't careI like 5.7 because it's super fast out of a handgun. Fast bullets=cool
>>64953889It's the official caliber of plebbit noguns hipsters, AKA 99% of /k/eddit
Not being a poor nigger.I ordered the Strike Modular Chassis too.It'll be here in a couple weeks.
You can carry a lot of it. And it fits into a pistol grip.
>>64954921>kirisame marisahah
>>64954786>but what kind of body armor?Kevlar without plates.
its useless but hey, let people have cool things. most guns are useless, like pretty much every submachinegun, but i still want a bunch of them
>>64959859>you should moveThis is usually not a workable option for most, all are aware of it as an objective possibility, and I'm getting old and tired of hearing good discussions and arguments terminating at this point, especially when you're speaking sense.The corollary of what you're saying is that decisions in hardware and behaviour DO help or harm your odds when dealing with an uninformed jury, the AR-15 vs Ruger Mini-14 study being a popular example.I'd promote that instead of some pipe dream about everyone upending their lives and commitments
>>64953889Similar performance to pistol calibers, but with higher capacity. A solid choice for a handgun, an excellent choice for an SMG. As for the strange arguments about animal attacks, most stories you hear about firearms being ineffective are usually the shooter just missing entirely. You don't need to know gunkata to down a grizzly, moose, or boar with a pistol cartridge. But having several dozen rounds you can fire in a few seconds really helps you hit your target at close range.
>>64953889>Rifle ballistics in a SMG form factor>God tier ergonomics>Huge mag capacity>LightIve shot a P90 a few times and it is my dream gun. I adore this weapon. Its a masterpiece of engineering.
>>64953889Meme round - designed for rear echelon troops in the cold war to face VDV troops carrying titanium body armor. In a military context today it doesn't make much sense unless strictly talking about covert ops with very light load outs and if you going up against opfor that carries body armor. Civilian context is more retarded, you dont have access to AP rounds, rounds cost nearly as much as 308, semi auto only unless you get your hands on a FRT. Even then from a civilian stopping power perspective its outclassed by modern 9mm 45 acp, 40 SW and other common pistol calibers. If you fall for muh p90 or 5,7 hype youre retarded and your money is best spent elsewhere.
I love my P90. It's nice to see ammo dropping in price and 5.7 getting more popular as well and people looking beyond the stupid "overpriced .22 magnum" memes that have been spouted on this board since at least when I started browsing in 2013. Can't wait for my FRT to get here. >>64992714Retard, velocity is the AP. Stupid SS198LF has an aluminum core and it reliably goes through IIIA armor out of a P90 SBR. You can get stuff like EA T6B or Vanguard Outfitters Black Dragon Fang or that company who was cutting down M855 to 40 grains and loading them in 5.7 cases. The issue is that Fiocchi is loading most of the 5.7 cases in the US and they do a really pathetic powder load that isn't taking advantage of 5.7's potential. Even PSA's AAC was doing 200 fps more with their 40 gr FMJ compared to Fiocchi's out of the P90. Literally any solid bullet construction in the 28-35 grain range with a normal powder load will be "armor piercing" against normal IIIA soft armor and helmets and add a solid copper projectile or penetrator and it would do a good job against UHMPWE as well. The issue is just getting the projectile under 40 grains without doing some weird hollowpoint or frangible or plastic tip varmint round that isn't conducive to penetrating stuff
>>64957118>t. faggot who needs to play games with caste like a jeet just to duck the fact that he's a retard who throws away his moneyYour two dads are disappointed and your mom should have swallowed you. Your caliber is fucking stupid and so are you. Tongue my anus, nigger, then kill yourself instead.
>>64992658I bet you watched a lot of Stargate growing up
>>64992714>stopping power>9mmlmao
Think 5.56 mars would be better.
>>649538935.7 works well subsonic?
>>64992658>>Rifle ballistics in a SMG form factor
>>649952525.56 Mars doesn't fit in a handgun grip. 5.7 is sized at pretty much the limit for grip size length-- if you want more power you have to fatten the width of the case and lose capacity >inb4 that retarded fucking crye patent from a decade ago for 300 Blackout in a pistol grip
>>649964535.56 MARS is shorter than .221 Fireball, which has been used in a grip magazine.
>>64996563There's pistols chambered in .30 Carbine too and they suck and require gorilla hands to shoot comfortably
My janky $350 Ruger 57 chassis of a temu-tier mp7 is range ready. Free SBR approved. Slide release works. Printing off angled mag holder grip at moment
>>649966975.56 MARS is also shorter than .30 Carbine.
>>64953889To get a handgun projectile above 2000+ fps to penetrate soft armor. It does an ok job at that, but the dimensions are wonky and require a big handle because of how long it is.You can get 9mm and 10mm projectiles to go over 2000fps, but I haven't seen anyone design a round specifically to do that exceot for Liberty civil defense. They hollowed out the bullet and made it so damn light that it won't do shit past the armor, or even if there's no armor the bullet isn't going yo make it past the muscle/fat layer. So it's unreliable as a defensive round. Underwood comes close with their xtreme defense but they seem to specifically keep it under 2000fps so it won't reliably penetrate armor. They even discontinued their 100gr 10mm which would almost reliably do it. Probably due to politics and laws and shit.
>>64997934Oh yeah that’s good stuff
>>65000439Worked pretty well. Made the cheap as shit Ruger 57 fun. Didn't like the safety on it and got the Ruger 57 pro without the safety. Had this extra Ruger 57 laying around. Fun as hell and zero climb on it as a carbine. The 3d printed chassis doesn't add much weight. The Amazon tier rail add one probably weighed more. I'll drop the print files on odyssey later. Making a few tweaks after range trip did today. Want to see if I can 3d print a folding stock unless somebody knows of a good one with minimal metal parts. If not I'll just design one.
>>65003193You should post this on YouTube
>>64995265Exactly the same as .22lr. So, yes, if you're shooting squirrels.
>>64975162>goofy ahhhhhhhhhhh showDid you see a roach or something? Why are you screaming in the middle of a sentence?
>>64953951bullpup profile is breddy gud if you try it
If anyone was curious, the Condor UMP45/P90 mag pouches do in fact fit P90 mags well. Contrary to the retarded Amazon reviewers, you just need to adjust the strap, so the excess isn't obstructing the inside of the pouch (and coincidentally you have to do this anyways if you want more than an inch of velcro keeping the pouch closed because of how long P90 mags are). I usually scoff at Condor but they're the best option in this situationAttached to a FirstSpear Fightstrap
>>65005851Pic really, and I meant cover not strap
