There is no way this POS costs that much or even the $10K some sources claim. Everyone and their mothers are building their own variants and somehow it still costs them an arm and a leg. Anyone over /diy/ can build you one for less than $5k.
>>64955255The one you posted actually costs significantly more than $30k. The American LUCAS drone is the cheapest of the Shahed-alikes at $35k.
>>64955269Illustration purposes Anon.>is the cheapest of the Shahed-alikes at $35kYeah but some are saying that it can go as 'low' as $10k for a flying lawnmower made of wood and costco tarp>inb4 muh electronics and muh warheadCome on now man.
yeah
>>64955311$10k is probably reasonable for a gerbera decoy. Go ahead and price out the components yourself and tell me what you come up with. Keep in mind that these things use 50 horsepower motors, much more than any lawnmower, and the motors only weigh 35 pounds. If you try to build them using junkyard Honda motors they'll use up the entire payload just on the engine.
>>64955311Engines used in sneedheads cost 10k
>>64955255>if I pretend this is being made by a competent private company in a competitive market with an equally competitive and reliable supply base then it costs ...okay now imagine instead it's made in sandnigeria with collapsing infrastructure and no water (yes this is before the war) by a corrupt mafia state and they're completely captive to a single supplier who dictates prices unilaterally because the rest of the world only trades in IOUs that they don't honor
>>64955255I still find it hilarious that the US copied the Shasneed. There's nothing particularly innovative and unique about the design as far as I'm aware.
>>64955375the Chinese 4 cylinder glider engine they use costs about $1500
>>64955428 The flying dorito is just that good.
>>64955428It's a copy of a german drone. Someone probably has a glow chart somewhere.
>>64955255the warhead is 5K of it anon.
>>64955428it doesn't have to be innovative, it occupies an extremely cost effective niche and we saw how much of a PITA it was to deal with as they streamed into Ukraine. shahed is unironically the only thing the Iranian regime has gotten right
>>64955434>It's a copy of a german drone. Someone probably has a glow chart somewhere.
>>64955432>Price went from $1500 in 2022 to $30,000 in 2026>same engine
>>64955357>that these things use 50 horsepower motorsso... toy dirtbike motors?
>>64955449it's fun being the sole supplier into a market with fixed demand
>>64955428The US actually worked with Dornier to make the DAR in the first place. US avionics, Dornier airframe.
>>64955448>>64955453Yep this right here
>>64955452for $30,000 they might get some competition, the German one costs half that.
>>64955448>>64955453>germans, once again, being the harbringers of modern warfare
>>64955434>>64955448>>64955453>noooo you don't get it, glorious shahed is totally a unique design! totally just convergent evolution! wikipedia said so!
>>64955515>Post the strongest,most efficient portable anti tank weapon of ww2 that can still kill modern vehicles from the side
>>64955515smart enough to invent but not smart enough not to follow a crazed leader...
>>64955523AFAIK there's some South African intermediate lineage in there too.
remember the ukrainian shahed teardown that found smuggled US evaluation boards worth $10K alone
>>64955311Toy RC planes that have nowhere near the range of a shahed, no GPS guidance and no warhead cost 5K easily.That a shahed can be produced for only twice the cost of an RC plane is a great feat.
>>64955523> This is my flying dorito. There are many like it but this one is mine
>>64955428>>64955453
>>64955453Basically the West invents everything during Cold War and the filthy unwashed masses claim the cancelled projects as their own creation. Nothing new here.>muh fiber optic drones (loitering munitions)>What is FOG?
>>64955453>>64955636
>>64955453>>64955636>Lanshit stole from the UVision Hero>It was E/FOG-M all the time
>>64955453>>64955636>muh fiber optic drones unjammable link 40km rangeWait until you find out about LONGFOG
>>64955453>>64955636>>64955655>The Multimode Airframe Technology Program is concluding with a planned September 1998 sled test and December 1999 flight test. This program has demonstrated the technology required to fly a man-in-the-loop missile paying out fiber cable to a range of 40-km. The program objectives were to investigate the technology required for ranges in excess of 100-km. Critical is the data link subsystem that includes the fiber bobbin and the electronics to digitize and pass video and autopilot data up and down the fiber cable. The electronics have proven to be better than expected and can easily achieve 100-km. A preliminary design for a longer range fiber bobbin and fiber cable has been developed using analytical models. Based on the success of the 40-km payouts already accomplished under MAT, the design is not viewed as high risk.
>>64955255This flying dildo blew a hole in everyone's war strategy, and now no one can cope with it besides making their own.
>>64955453>>64955636All this shit was done in the 80s and it started off using the TOW as a chassis.>HABEEB IT
>>64955453>>64955636And yes, Spike NLOS picked up the remains of FOGM and EFOGM in effect. Akeron MP is a distant relative as much as French pride wouldn't let them admit to it.>TWINKIE HOUSE
>>64955681>The Franco-German relative of FOG-M, PolyphemFucking NATO domination. Westies were the innovators then the Soviets imploded leaving all these things on the cutting room floor. The moment South Africa and Israeli got their hands on the remains of these programs and then their derivatives hit some turdies without blowing up? Fucking turdies claim they invented it all as they make their shit ass knockoffs.And yes Russia IS a turdie nation.
>>64955432>>64955465>>64955449A bit north of $20k right now, although I bet the chinks will knock a bit off that if you buy in bulk. FWIW, it was about the same price last year. >only know this because droneanon made a very informative thread here last year featuring a dissected shahed with lots of photos and parts analysis>back when cnn was reporting that these things were $500 each and anons here believed it, droneanon was the hero that we needed but didn't deserve>turns out that this engine is a very bad choice for a shahed and they could have done better for far cheaper, but room temperature thirdies are gonna do thirdie shit>>64955255To answer your question, the engine's two thirds of that. Factor in materials, electronics, the warhead, and the sanction evasion tax and yeah, $30k sounds about right.Here's where you can buy one of your own. Tell them Muhammed sent you.>https://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/uavstar/product-detailXmKUSfcETQrx/China-Drone-Gasoline-Engine-MD550-37kw-50HP-Uav-Engine-for-Aircraft-Drone-Engine-Long-Range-Motor-Propeller-Personal-Aircraft.html
>>64955719>room temperature iq thirdiesFuck, I'm typing like an ESL.
>>64955255Quality costs time and time is money. >>64955515He's standing next to such a bizarre construct and yet, with his incredibly dignified manner, he sells it.
>>64955451Sure. How much does your 50 horsepower, 35 pound toy dirtbike motor cost?
>>64955255Ford costs 13.3B to build. Meaning 380k units of LUCAS. Could a swarm of 380k LUCAS sink a Ford?
>>64955255Tell me you dont have the engineering knowledge to know why high rev recips are expensive without telling me. The drones are POS but the engine is expensive and difficult relative to other systems
https://militarnyi.com/en/news/russian-shahed-engines-worse/
>>64955255Modern day Kettering Bug
>>64956198Not sure why you would need multiple flights from a suicide drone engine, or why you'd need a starter motor when you could just ripstart it like an actual lawnmower, but this does point to the Iranian versions being significantly more expensive than the Russian ones (especially if the Russians are cutting corners other places too and they probably are), which are confirmed by Russian sources to cost around $45,000 to manufacture. Makes sense why the Iranians were charging Russia over $200,000 apiece for them and why Russia was so eager to set up local production.
>>64956246based Charles Kettering poster
>>64955255Most of the cost will be a military grade GPS and INS. Sure you can get a consumer GPS for $50 but they are a lot easier to jam and take longer to find satellites, as for the INS less drift costs a lot.Nationalize production to completely remove the profit motive and you could probably get them down to $15k but no one in congress is going to give contracts to a company they can't own stock in.
>>64956421Russia nationalized production and it's still costing them the equivalent of $45,000 to make them. On the other hand, the US is paying $35,000 per to a private company so depending on their markup that might be possible. I'm guessing they're taking slim margins and hoping to make it up on volume though, it's a fairly small company trying to get their foot in the door. I would be surprised if they're $25-30k to build.
>>64956601>I would be surprisedWuldn't
>>64955255>$35k>$10kI think that number is a bit too high, $4-5k should be right once you factor in components that are cheaper to import than manufacture domestically. Once you eliminate labor costs the economics change significantly.
>>64956615Fun fact: The DPRK has recently been boasting about how their domestic construction has been making fire proof wall panels on a huge scale for the betterment of the Choson people. Fireproof drywall, fiber reinforced gypsum, all that good heat reistant stuff that makes modern building materials so great. Look at the image i'm quoting, look at the lining of a Bulsae launch box. That thin white lining? Yeah.
>>64956615> $4-5k should be right once you factor in components that are cheaper to import than manufacture domestically30k without jam resistance 70k with antennas and shit
>>64955448>>64955434What the fuck.
>>64956623Fire still fucks that stuff it just gives the people half an hour to leave the building before it collapses
>>64956601Ukraine has also nationalized a lot of production and the US nationalized a lot during WW2.Russia is extremely corrupt and unlike Ukraine they aren't working to fight it.
>>64956643You mix it with some carbon/fiberglass fiber and cement then heat treat it with basic means like a hand torch and it gets what amounts to a thin ceramic layer over the surface. Cheap, heat resistant and perfectly capable of protecting the steel of a missle launch box from exhaust erosion. They need replacement after a half dozen uses but heat shielding is always a replacable item.
>>64956640>Dornier (Germany) designs the DAR>Dornier sells the IP to Kentron (South Africa) to make the ARD-10>Kentron licenses the IP to IAI (Israel) to make the Harop>Kentron is bought out by Denel (South Africa)>Denel licenses the design to HESA (Iran) to make the Shahed 131 and 136>Iran licenses the design to Russia who manufacture the Geran 1 and 2 at Alabuga SEZ>Spektreworks (USA) acquires a disabled Geran drone from Ukraine to design the LUCASIt's been around the block a few times.
>>64956673wasn't the DAR a joint german and US venture? who was helping Dornier from the US, was it just the military in general and not a company?
>>64956675Texas Instruments provided the guidance electronics.
>>64956631>Jam resistance>AntennasWhy would the basic model need those? Basic INS/GPS/Modular homing on radio sources.I'm talking tens of thousands of cheap things that use INS to get to a city and start diving on cell towers, WiFi modems, hand held radios, cell phones and if they can't find those they hit the default target which was your local coner store or gas station. The flaw in how they have been used is because no one uses them to their ultimate potential: Mass production and deployment to destroy anything that equates to a functional society. You don't target military objectives or protected locations, you go after everything else. Your local town office, gas station, your libary, your school are all targets. You don't need to destroy a nations military if your destroy their means of civil administration first. I don't want my $5k drone to hit a military base, i want it to make your people panic because it hit their local cell tower, they are trying to call the local fire department but they can't because i hit them as well. Ultimatly the goal in the areas under attack would be to see people afraid to use a phone, drive a vehical or even use a flashlight.
>>64956717Ah, so you want thousands of drones that will be disabled by single EW station that will nosedive them into the ground instantly they get into its field
>>64955255The quoted "high" prices are due to inefficiencies like circumventing sanctions and such.If you set up an efficient mass production of these, you could get the cost down to about 5k a pop. Most of that is the engine, about 2000k.Maybe if you want very fancy targeting, that could add some more cost, but if you go with simple sat nav that's very cheap these days.But simple radar sets or cameras with AI image recognition is doable for 1-2k depending on sophistication.
>>64956764Where do retards like you find those costs? Chinese Shahed engine cost at least 9k
>>64956623>2026>Norks brag about discovering 75 year old building material.>repurpose drywall for superweapon programJesus, they're even more retarded than chinks.
speaking of, was the DAR a good idea conceptually?I have no idea what advantages it would have over then contemporary HARMsMaybe something to do with military doctrine vs the soviets in europe after a limited nuclear strike?
>>64956835>speaking of, was the DAR a good idea conceptually?FP-2 (which perform same role DAR was intended for) seem to be more effective than HARM as DEAD due to two reasons1. much cheaper, you can send more of them2. since HARM requires launching from aircraft, it's easier to spot it's launch, turn off radar and hide. Which does suppress AA but doesn't destroy it3. you can launch them from safer distance when enemy has air presence or strong AA networkin peer conflict with contested airspace DAR is better than HARM
>>64956717>Mass production and deployment to destroy anything that equates to a functional society. You don't target military objectives or protected locations, you go after everything else.What is it about low cost munitions that makes retards think that basic causality doesn't apply any longer? If you have the production and projection capabilities to terror bomb the shit out of an entire nation while also dealing with that nation's military firmly telling you to cut that shit out with bombs of their own then you wouldn't need to fantasize about swarms of shasneeds apparating out of the fucking morning mist. We've seen plenty of thirdies trying their damnedest to target civilians with drones and so far they still seem to be constrained by the reality of logistics and physics.
>>64955655>That drawing90's KINO
>>64955255Investigation showed modern Shades aren't really that cheap, 40k-70k minimum . Iran was initially selling them to Russia for 200k each
>>64956861Iirc the DAR was also able to give off a larger radar signature so it could work as decoy. Which is a nice to have feature for cheap munition
>>64956766>Where do retards like you find those costs?From my calculator.I'm a manufacturing engineer, I figure out how to make stuff cheaply.>Chinese Shahed engine cost at least 9kMaybe if you're retarded, sure.I would get it for about half that.I think you should kill yourself now.
>>64956764>>64957150Oh great another Temu search midwit
>>64955453>>64956640>>64956673Let's not forget that the Israelis also sold the Harpy to China, which eventually led to them being briefly suspended from the JSF programme after offering them an upgrade package. Or the fact that the Taiwanese also have a strikingly similar munition called the Chien Hsiang, which could have easily ended up in the hands of PRC intelligence (or vice versa, if that's how the ROC first got a hold of it).There's so many paths the designs could have taken to get to Iran, whether via South Africa or China or another country, that I'd be amazed if they hadn't got their hands on plans from completely different sources.
>>64956623>Fireproof drywall, fiber reinforced gypsum, all that good heat reistant stuff that makes modern building materials so great.So they finally discovered Type X rated drywall?
>>64957150>I figure out how to make stuff cheaply.and you think chinks are so fucking stupid they never thought to manufacture it cheaply?
>>64956717>Basic INSDo you have any idea how much functional INS costs?
>>64955584Was there ever an update video for those boards? If they survived, did they get sold in the aftermarket?
>>64955255
>>64955255>There is no way this POS costs that muchwarehouses, employees, factories, electricity bills, health insurance and other benefits, HR foids, salesmen, R&D, bribes, etc...
>>64957664hehe
>>64955636>creation of a viable harassment doneyeah but when I do it I get added to a registry and sentenced to community service
>>64956861>it's easier to spot it's launch, turn off radar and hideDepends on which HARM variant. Eventually they got an INS backup to stay on target even after the radar stops emitting. The most recent variant uses the seeker head as a millimeter wave radar and scans the ground to find the radar accurately.I think Ukrainians mostly got B variants but ended up getting a few Cs if I'm not mistaken.
The engine starts at $17k for the original German versionhttps://www.austars-model.com/limbach-l-550-e-uav-engine-37kw50hp-optional-estarter-generatoralternator_g7210.html
>>64955269>american copy is cheaper lol, they're probably 200k a pop. we probably have a thousand.
>>64958819I've seen deals as low as 1800$ from chinese suppliers before the sanctions on these things hit hard.Bulk buy obviously, like a container's worth.I'm sure 1% of the chinese engines won't work and I doubt they'll last 100 hours but ...
>>64960346Yeah no way, that’s how much electric motors of such size cost
>>64956099>engineering knowledge: Why high rev recips are expensivePlease enlighten us! This is the question of the tread.Also >Why Renault got the Euro-shaheed contract?They can produce the cheapest hardoxidized aluminum block engines in the whole auto industry.They hard anodize the machines aluminum to 10s of microns thick. It fucks up precisions, so they measure and match the statistically distributed pistons to the cylinders.
>>64955269there is cost and then there is "costs"LUCAS is literally a reverse engineered copy of Shaheed and it "will cost 35 k to produce in theory" (it never does in the end)At the same time, the cost of Shaheed is like 35k per unit, but the sale price is higherso yeah, one thing is the sales price, and then the other thing is "cost of the program divided by number of units"
>>64955434>>64955448>>64955453So you are telling me that after all this time they still haven't figured out how to make it dirt cheap?
>>64962464>Legitamate question, if this drone was an american/german invention, why is iran the one fielding thousands of these rather than the US/germany?Lets ignore the fact that the US/Germany versions will be of higher quality and precision and have different goals sperate from Iran. No, you know what? Lets flip it just around: What would US/Germany do with thousands of cheaply and imprecise Iranian style drones aimed at terror and saturation attacks that completely ignore or even aim for civilian casualties?Legitimate question my ass, my neutrooler friend.
>>64962583If the US saw no value in it, why did they reverse engineer the geran into the LUCAS?
>>64962585Why are you asking troll questions when they are supposed to be legitimate, shill?
>>64962593Who am I shilling for exactly?
>>64962595Anti-west well-poisoning pilpul.
>>64962464>>64962585>>64962595>that level of dishonesty on full display and then still expect to be taken serious.Welcome back, Armatard. Long time no see.
>>64962464The LUCAS was "reverse engineered" because it was made by a different company then the one that made the Dornier which allowed them to get around copyright infringement concerns. The US saw no need for them because the Cold War was ending, there was no peer army to be worried about, and we were spending the next two decades killing insurgent goatfuckers in the sandbox. PGM guidance kits were also either imprecise enough or expensive enough that there wasn't a desire to stick them in a low cost body because putting them in a proper missile was not a substantial increase in cost for the increase in capabilities, while now the US is starting to proliferate and acquire low cost PGMs for lower importance targets, whether that's APWKS and JDAM/SDBs in the air, the various guided artillery shells, and even things like Switchblades and other loitering munitions that are becoming squad level elements.
>>64962615You seem to be under the delusion that you are worth anything else but to be ridiculed. Why would anyone even waste time on disproving what you say? What you try is obiviously dishonest to the core, everyone else already knows it and you yourself can never be swayed with arguments.You think you are something special or something new, but you are just another one of those posters, we get people like you come here every day. Nobody owes you anything, shill.So either act like a normal being from the start or get the shill treatment like you deserve.
>>64962615>you see, i shit on the floor right before you and now you must clean it up or i win>oh and when you clean it up, then i'm just gonna shit over here on the floorOh Armatard, you truely never learn.
>>64962618Thank you, this is a good explanation.
>>64962630>>64962636Bizarre to see this kind of reaction when it was so easy to give a satisfying answer.
>>64962654The irony.
>>64962654If you asked legitimate questions why didn't you answer the question in >>64962585, but tried to avoid explaining why you asked so loaded questions with logical breaks?
>>64962665Have you never heard of answering a question with another question?
>>64956640Wait until you find out about the German private rocket company.
>>64962670But you didn't answer anything with that question, you just tried to deflect away from the logical errors in your premise and away from how you implied things that weren't like you act they were.And you wonder why you are not taken serious and seen as a shill.
>>64962654You asked a loaded question, you were then asked to explain yourself why it was so loaded, then you just asked another loaded question. That's kinda the opposite of answering with a question.
>>64962618>PGM guidance kits were also either imprecise enough or expensive enough that there wasn't a desire to stick them in a low cost bodyYou were right up to this point. Switchblade 300 costs $60,000, and it's precise, low collateral, and human in the loop. LUCAS is only $35,000 for the munition itself, but like the Shahed and Geran it's launched with a JATO rocket that probably costs at least $15,000 and probably significantly more; Russian sources estimate the cost of launching a Geran at about $30,000 (on top of the $45,000 cost of the munition). So the cost difference between the two isn't very large, and the Switchblade's design is far more optimized for a counterinsurgency role: a squad can carry a couple of them on a patrol, and if a sniper starts taking potshots from across a valley they can just hunker down and send the Switchblade over to blow him up without accidentally causing any war crimes. LUCAS, on the other hand, is more of a budget Tomahawk. It's too large and heavy to carry around, and its warhead is much larger and more destructive so it can't just pick off an individual or small group without excess collateral damage.The reason we didn't have something like this in the GWOT is because there was no demand for a standoff strike weapon in an environment where we had a wholly unlimited capacity to drop even cheaper JDAMs anywhere we wanted.
Why not Shahed but underwater?
>>64955255Are the Iranians still producing these or are their production facilities all destroyed? Are the Russians or Chinese making any for them?
>>64962772Did the cost per flight hour ever get factored into those numbers? Not be like an accountant or anything but if we're counting the JATO part of the LUCAS/shahed then the flight hour cost should at least partially be included in the JDAM drop.
>>64956717If you want a terror bomb then using drones is dumb as fuck. You'll just make civilians angry and kill any mercy in the population. You gotta scope out of the gay slave state you love so much for five seconds of rational thinking. Also a dirty bomb accomplishes the same thing you suggest with a much faster and same end state
>>64962784That's called a torpedo and they've been in use since the 1900s, sorry you're so late to the game
>>64962772I am going to murder everyone who quotes the 60k price tag for a Switchblade. It was a mistake made by journalists being retards who don't understand that a single unit purchase of a Switchblade is not one single drone, it is half a dozen units + a reusable control module.Comparing the cope cruise missile of the LUCAS and the man portable PGM of a Switchblade is also fucking stupid. They serve completely different roles, and the cost of a US infantryman in just death benefits and training costs for a replacement mean that if you spend twenty to thirty Switchblades to save a single US casualty, you're coming out ahead significantly. The ability for the squad grenadier to deliver PGM-esque firepower at minimal delay, not to mention the battlefield understanding that having an eye in the sky provides is fucking insane overmatch that the rest of the world can only dream of.
>>64962801Travel time on a LUCAS is unacceptable for COIN shit where you aren't calling in fires on a static, strategic target but need someone to quickly drop a bomb on a durka up on a hill taking postshots at you before he runs away to go do it again next week.
>>64962784Long range underwater torpedo? That's pretty difficult guidance problem.
>>64962836Of course I didn't mean the use cases are interchangeable or anything just strictly monetary autism makes me want to include the cost of operating the aircraft that carries the JDAM. There should probably be a spreadsheet in the pentagon where all aircraft with operating cost/payload capacity and payload cost get compared.It would be funny if somewhere in there it turns out 84 unguided mk-82 out of a B1-B in a 3 hour sortie costs the same as 12 JDAM kits out of an F-35.
>>64962700>But you didn't answer anything with that questionYes I did actually, the post implied there was no value in it to the americas and my question disputed that. >>64962717Loaded how?
>>64962881You were asked why you implied the americans would make the same thing as the iranians and for what reason. Your question didn't answer jack shit. Same goes for:>Loaded how?This is why everyone can tell you are shill, all you can do is try to spin false naratives, do your 'i am just asking questions' routine and avoiding actual answers.Even when it comes to shilling you are a loser. BTW on which level of ban evade are you currently? More and more of your posts keep disappearing.
>>64962299Are we sure there is no way to reduce that cost further? Like these engines don't need to last a long time given the airframe they're on.
>>64962801Cost per flight hour on an F-15 is under $30,000 and a JDAM costs around $25k, so it's worth it to make a 1 hour round trip to drop 1 JDAM compared to firing a LUCAS. And considering that you can observe the damage directly and drop a second JDAM if needed, it's absolutely the way to go in permissive airspace.>>64962826Have a source? Everything I've seen puts the cost of a Switchblade 300 AUR (munition plus launcher) at $50-60k and the full kit with fire control unit around $90-120k. Even at those prices it's cost effective for what it is; cheaper options like RPG-equipped FPVs don't fill the same battlefield role.
>>64962881Semi thread lurker here, in case you wonder why only aggressive posters engage you with ridicule, the rest of us have identified you as the a troll or retard, and we simply avoid you. You are probably currently thinking of a witty and baity reply for me, but lets not waste our both time, this post doesnt warrent a reply nor will you get anything back if you do. Have a lousy day.
>>64962868>It would be funny if somewhere in there it turns out 84 unguided mk-82 out of a B1-B in a 3 hour sortie costs the same as 12 JDAM kits out of an F-35.I wouldn't be surprised if it is, gravity bombs cost about a tenth of what a JDAM kit does. The problem is, you're talking about the choice between hitting 12 different targets vs missing a single one 84 times. PGMs are always cheaper than missing, although how much value you can get out of them is only as good as your intelligence.
>>64962585Cheap weapons are no business in peace time.Big MIC wont set up production lines for peace time minimal production with narrow margin.Now the age of empires™ have come. Here is a cheap tool with proven track record.Also this>>64962618>>64956640The DARPA X-76 thread has a Dornier Do-31 solution from the fucking '60s
>>64962925>You were asked why you implied the americans would make the same thing as the iranians and for what reason.But they are? That was my point with asking that.>>64962981I assumed the reason why is the same reason people risk going to jail to win arguments on the war thunder forum. For some reason weapons autists are all hyper sensitive nationalists.>>64963029>Cheap weapons are no business in peace time.I don't think this is true. Hell, the shahed was made during peace time, although the point about it being less profitable for the MIC over bespoke works of art maybe makes sense.
>>64963045>shahed>cheapSee >>64956410
>>64963045Just so you know: my last three posts were essentially just to prove to everyone beyond any doubt what a dishonest little shit you are.I couldn't discredit you any better than you did yourself.
>>64956601The US has access to open markets and hard currency. russia has black markets and roblox moneyUSA can get things way cheaper
>>64963103This is an anonymous image board so I don't know who you are. Regardless you're probably just coping.>>64963059Don't really buy it. The geran 2 has lots of bells and whistles the shahed doesn't. Also labor costs in iran are probably lower than in russia.
>>64963184And you think you are special here with your retardation, urge to reply to everything and begging for replies?
>>64963209It's up to you to keep replying to me if you hate my posts so much
I guess everything i said about you isn't not only true, it is also kinda worse.
I wonder when you will realize these social shaming tactics don't work on 4chan
>>64962611>>64962636Might be rather "the logical russian" aka armatard on ritalin than actual armatard. They share the same level of dishonesty and urge to just shamelessly keep to talk over stuff when you point at what is wrong with what they said. Feels like talking to a broken bot or human in either case.
>>64963184>Don't really buy it. The geran 2 has lots of bells and whistles the shahed doesn't. Care to list them all?>Also labor costs in iran are probably lower than in russia.I'm sure they can get lots of very willing free labor by offering conscripts an alternative to the front.
>>64963287Just going off the wikipedia article.
Do schizos get that trying to defend what they do with proud cope is kinda what makes them schizos in the first place?
>>64963306>le $30,000 asspull number>$400 Starlink taped on>$100 Raspberry Pi>$250 Jetson board>Some ancient surp strapped to it for very little additional cost>Not even all on the same machineYeah, I think the Russian ones are still cheaper than the Iranian ones. Iran was stockpiling several hundred a year for emotional support, Russia is building thousands per year during the process of fighting a war that's costing them trillions.
>>64963373>le $30,000 asspull numberIf you read the first paragraph you'll see the upgraded ones cost 80000$
>>64962464I'll bite even if this is bait:>Why didn't Germany/America field these thingsEnd of the Cold War>Why is Iran fielding themBecause they can't make good cruise missiles or cruise missiles in enough numbers>Why a mediocre grade loitering munition over a cruise missileBecause Iran cares more about throwing explosives whether it hits an important target or not. LUCAS is closer to a "proper" cruise missile with a datalink that allows for retargeting but it has the shitbox cost and shitbox speed (cruise missiles are high subsonic speeds), good sensors and high accuracy. Shahed/Gerans are not, they are closer to a V-1 as a weapon in terms of performance. Western doctrine is PGM based because PGMs make every bang significantly more likely hit and/or kill a target, especially mobile military targets or otherwise important nodes.
>>64962464>Reverse engineered?Some independent company was trying to make a Shahed target simulator since that'd be a worthwhile product to sell. The US and Western nations actually conduct training in relatively realistic ways and that means they want inexpensive decoy/trainers that they can blow out of the sky every often with live ammo. The Dornier blueprints and general lineage for the thing is probably long lost in some archival basement somewhere given the project was shelved. LUCAS is based off said training target (which is smaller in scale, hence why LUCAS has a smaller payload and shorter range than the Shahed/Geran) but with a bunch of Western avionics which make up for the smaller payload.>Intellectual property/blueprintsLUCAS also happens to be US Gov't IP, meaning the prospective manufacturers can be handed a data package and asked for their bid. This is why lineage wise it descends from a private company's target drone. No messy payout to Dornier for a design that is likely off patent, no having to convert ancient blueprints and documentation along with ancient ass parts to a modern standard.>Why smaller scale with a smaller payload and shorter rangeIs where the US has cruise missiles (Tomahawk, JASSM, all the other options coming up in the pipeline) that have bigger payload and longer range options. They're faster and harder for SAMs to intercept. LUCAS is a shitbox munition that'd be sent in first targeting SAMs to waste them/waste the launchers while the cruise missiles do the real heavy lifting. That doesn't mean things like LUCAS and other low cost long range loitering munitions can't be used, they're just an option in the toolbox.
>>64963406I read the first paragraph, and discarded it because it estimates a cost increase over an asspulled number. It's as reliable a source as OP.
>>64963418>LUCAS also happens to be US Gov't IPNo it isn't. The IP belongs to SpektreWorks.
>>64963409>End of the Cold WarAs an aside, I know this is the case but why did the end of the cold war lead to the US to shifting towards low volume, bespoke weapon systems instead of low cost ones? Naively I'd expect the opposite and I'd like to know if you have any insight on the reason here.>>64963409>cruise missiles in enough numbersConsidering the main advantage of the shaheds, I'd go with this. Hell the US only makes ~1000 tomahawks per year, can't find any info on shahed production but russia makes ~400 geran 2s per day.>Because Iran cares more about throwing explosives whether it hits an important target or not.I don't think this is how iran uses the shahed, considering who iran has been planning to fight I think the idea with the shahed is to have an easily mass manufacturable weapon they can use to overwhelm their enemies defense system in massive swarm attacks.>>64963418Thanks for giving some insight into the history and design of LUCAS. Interesting to learn it evolved out of a target dummy program.
>>64957664Underrated
>>64963584>russia makes ~400 geran 2s per day.No they don't. They make 400 drones per day. Most of those are tiny FPVs.
>>64960400Copper vs cnc and high spec steelSomeone call Munro Live
>>64955311>flying lawnmower made of wood and costco tarpits a flying lawnmower and costco tarp that every single step of manufacture needs to be hardened against...itself. your roadside taco stall isnt gonna have very cheap tacos if you need a fully functional sam site next to it protecting it, and 24/7 armed guards, is it. oh and theres a guy trying to slip hand grenades into the hot sauce so you need to x-ray that shit.that taco is now 149.99. enjoy.
>>64963750According to this article it is specifically 400 gerans per day https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-oleksandr-syrskyi-russia-1000-shahed-per-day-2026-1
>>64963584>As an aside, I know this is the case but why did the end of the cold war lead to the US to shifting towards low volume, bespoke weapon systems instead of low cost ones?Couple of things. One, that shift started earlier. Half the reason the Gulf War is such a remarkable conflict was because it was the first time we saw what the US and allies with similarly equipped information age militaries could really do. It was meant to be harder.In part it's the result of a shift towards a more professional military. Less conscription and more of a focus on career soldiers means each individual soldier is both worth more and can be trusted with more.It's also playing to the strengths and avoiding the weaknesses of the western-aligned world. Democracies with a free press are less tolerant of wars unless they're very well justified, particularly when that means coffins coming home draped in flags. They're also richer and generally home to more tech innovation than others. So you spend more money on more tech in the hopes it means less coffins coming home.Significantly sacrificing capability for economy is also often a false economy. Six SDBs hitting six targets is more useful than twelve MK82s landing near two targets. The tank that sees and hits the enemy first time, every time is coming home more often than the one that doesn't.The end of the Cold War also meant there was no longer a big peer threat to worry about total war with. Those cheaper options were often sold with the either implicit or explicit idea that if the shooting started, you could shit out a billion of them. The reduction in perceived threat and increased focus on overmatch combine to make that much less appealing.The main thing that's changed here is that now you can get the PGM utility without the PGM price tag, which is something people freaking out over 'drones changing the nature of war' tend to miss. It's not a new problem, it's a new scale of proliferation of an existing one.
>>64964750To add to this, after the cold war there was a major contraction of the defense industry as the budget went way down, which led to a massive consolidation of the US defense industry and a focus on consistent profitability. Bespoke weapon systems are more profitable for the same reason luxury cars are more profitable than mass market cars. Basically way higher margins.
>>64964788That too, plus multiple types of platform hitting the point where the bones are good enough and you just need tweaks means less new contracts going out. You're not procuring a new fighter fleet every 15 years, you're getting block upgrades of existing planes, slapping new weapons on them and new sensors in them.And not buying more than a dozen bombers fucking ever again apparently, the BUFF is going to be fighting on Mars at this rate.
>>64962868>There should probably be a spreadsheet in the pentagon where all aircraft with operating cost/payload capacity and payload cost get compared.Do you seriously think there isn't?
>>64955357you could weld a pulsejet out of a piece of sheet metal and probably get way more thrust than that 50hp piston prop produces.
>>64955269It's not so much Shahed-alikes, its some guy on our side saw the iranian thing and said "well that's stupid, this is how you're supposed to build it!", and that's what we have.
>>64964889Considering he said probably should be then I hazard a guess and say he thinks there is.
>>64955311
Most informative thread on /k/ in a whileThanks all anons who contributed, I learned something
https://osmp.ngo/collection/shahed-131-136-uavs-a-visual-guide/Found this interactive model of the shahed, very cool
>>64955515once again? they are pretty limited warfare regarding. history doesn't start at WW2.
>>64965070true and even during WW2 they were not the most advanced. it only took the balls of Guderian to cut through the Ardennes.
>>64964935Who would've guessed that asking "bait" questions would stimulate productive discussion.
>>64964713That would be 10-12 trillion USD per year just on building, transporting, and launching Gerans. Compare that to Russia's GDP of $2.5 trillion and ask yourself how likely it is.
>>64955255Lucas/ Shahed are toy planes with a warhead. Many commercial drones likely have more robust avionics.
>>64965350Sorry, I'm retarded, it's only $12 billion.
>>64965350>>64965376lmao I just had a post calling you a retard for that error I had to delete. Good on you for owning up to it. Even still I don't know where you get 12 billion, going off published numbers I get 4.6 billion per year.
>>64965392Your "published number" is the asspulled $30,000 based on absolutely nothing. Geran-2 costs $45,000 to build and $30,000 for a ground launch.
>>64965410>don't use that number some guy pulled out of his ass, instead use this number I pulled out of my ass!
>>64965284You must be knew, we had this happen before and far as it has gone before than the one who asked the bait question will cherrypick is way through the information and twitst the rest to turn its meaning upside down in further threads. This wasn't a productive discussion, it was just some useful idiots feeding a dispicle reapearing character that will just use everything for his ill intended goals, if you think he is pursuing the actual truth, you haven't been paying attention to what he's done so far.
>>64965410Even using your numbers I still only get 7.9 billion per year.
>>64965459Instead of calling me a liar, you could just ask for the source.https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/64753944/#q64755735
>>64965482$75,000 * 400 * 365 is $10.95B.
>>64965490Oh yep you're right, I accidentally typo'd 265 instead of 365, my bad.
>>64965490Just for context, this is about as much Russia's whole military budget was in 2000 or 2001.
>>64965484Bro thats the geran 4 and 5, the ones with jet engines. I dare say the ones with propeller engines are way cheaper.
>>64965520The prop ones require the same JATO rockets for ground launching.
>>64965534Si you're just gonna totally ignore that jet engines cost more than propeller engines?
>>649655401-3 million rubles is just the launch cost, it doesn't include the cost of the drone. Look at the image in the next post for the cost of a "shahed" (Geran-2).
>>64965473>muh boogeymanThere, saved everyone from reading a paragraph.
>>64965562>please don't read it, it explains what i do and then i can't do it anymore or must come up with something newftfy
>>64965571>ur muh boogeyman
>>64965549He won't unless you force him to, his whole scheme can be dumbed down to two core mechanics:1. Intentionally ignore any information that contradicts his set endgoal of the discussion, while constantly repeating his own points and false narrtives to make it look like that's what's everyone should take as the base of the discussion.2. Endless cycle of comprosises from your side while he never accepts he is wrong or ever even admit he was wrong with something without getting something in return. Best you can get from him is scraping he might be wrong on something in exchange for you to accept to be wrong on something else or that he is right on something.
>>64965604You're just describing how everyone on 4chan argues.
>>64965629No, not even remotely, but i guess you are too far gone to even realize that. >>649656043. Replies to or tries to nag about everyone that possess a real threat to him to get people to interact with him and the unending urge to have the last word.
>>64965653>No, not even remotelyThis is probably why you think everyone you argue against is one guy, it's not one person who argues like this. not everyone you disagree with is your boogeyman.
>>64965676Your inability to self reflect or observe isn't compensated by your ability to come up with cope, it's rather the opposite.
>>64955809not ten thousand dollars?
>>64965562>yOu CaNt ReGoNiZE iDiOtS oN tHe 4cHaN!
>>64965691Looks suspicious since even human-powered bikes can cost as much
>>64956099It's not the precision which costs things, but low production numbers and production methods used in them. Just labor in general is a big factor. When you have retards manually making fiberglass or carbon fiber shells using molds and such that like a big chunk of potential efficiency which goes out the door right there. Same thing with basically anything.
>>64965691Okay, its a 49cc engine, so too small, it doesn't have 50 hp, far from it, it probably will die if it runs at full load for an hour, it probably wont even run at the temperature and altitude it needs to, so what is your actual fucking point? Either make a real comparison or shut it instead of trying to look stupid.
>>64965701>everyone who disagrees with me is one person
>>64965728NTA>decide to check out ebay for 50hp engines>2 stroke boat engines since why not>see prices vary wildly from 2k to 4k for used ones>check out new ones>5.5k to 7kWell, that's pretty damn expensive. This doesn't factor in the weight aspect either which is definitely gonna drive costs up.
>>64965745How many times have you already said that in a similar situation? Because i have seen your little tantrums before, hence why i replied. It is a bit telling how often we get this when you are depraved from the attention and discussion you so forcefully demand and how it doesn't happen in other situations. Nobody owes you shit, fucking accept it or go to therapy.Did i do this right, will i now get my inevitable schizo reply from you?>>64965771It's even worse with engines meant for flying, there is a reason why so many different small airplanes all use just a few bunch of different engines. I mean beside the typical regulatory shitshow involved. When people see the aircooled engine of the Shahed clones, they look to them like the ones from a scooter, but they fail to realize that it is actually bigger and got way more horsepower. To be fair those engines simply look pretty similar through the whole air cooled design and how most people expect some kind of water cooling above a certain amount of engine power.
>>64965771Yeah, 50 hp and 35 pounds is squarely in aviation engine territory. Even the cheap knockoffs will be expensive.
>>64955255>Anyone over /diy/ can build you one for less than $5k.And you'd get what you paid for with that: A non-functioning piece of shit.
>>64955453I wonder why you stop at the dornier? Can't you go back further than that? What were the influences on the dorniers design?
>>64965890>still believes everyone whos disagrees with him is one person and has the gall to call others schizo
>>64965990>he says to the third different person in the same thread
>>64966003NTA btw
Post so predictable and pathetic it isn't even worth a (You).
>>64965890>Did i do this right, will i now get my inevitable schizo reply from you?Spoiler: the answer was yes.
Can you two retards stop arguing over how you're totally not the same people while accusing each of being the same people and shut the fuck up
>>64966183Sir, this is a contaiment thread.
>>64966190Can we move these two guys to the loud retard thread and leave our dronefag containment thread in peace?
>>64966183What is there even to discuss at this point though? The last two thirds of the thread was essentially just a cycles of people showing how expensive the shaheds are with links and sources and the other side going "nuhu, they are cheaper! why? i dont know why, they just are!" and then the cylce began again. The threads dead, Jim.
Its more like 4000 a pop actualy.Cirno talked aboit this
>>64966205It's just the token 'i am just asking questions' idiot that gets bullied for his constant implications and ingenuine moves by the rest of the board, pal. If there would have been anything that still needed to be discussed, it would have happened on its own. So dont be too surprised when i'm raise an eyebrow to your assertions to what is supposed to have happened here.
>>64966206Whats even the point? It's 30000 vs 45000, what difference does it make?
>>64966235Did you not hear me the first time? Shut the fuck up retard and fuck off.
>>64966255Yeah this will fix the thread and wasn't your problem form the beginning anyways. Any second now...
>>64965890>>64965728Why the fuck do you need 50hp retard? Just increase the wingspan and you'll get more lift.
This thread made me believe the 'shaheds are super super super cheap' club may have a large venere diagramm overlap with the club of retards.
>>64966367>30000$ is cheap but 45000$ is super expensive The only retards here are people like you who engage in this stupid argument.
>>64966249>what difference50% increase
>>64966382>baiting and strawmaningcase and point
>>64966228It's actually free. Why have a 1.5 trillion dollars defense budget when you can have infinite free spicy doritos?
Look at this shit.Cylinders? Cast aluminium.Cylinder heads? Cast aluminium.Crank case? Cast aluminium.Sure this all needs some machining, but 99% of the engine gets most of it's shape by casting.Aluminium castings are pretty cheap.The crank shaft for a 4 cylinder boxer engine like this also isn't crazy complex.The pistons likely are also cast aluminium.They likely use a sleeve or coating for the cylinders.It has good power to weight ratio because it's air cooled by the prop wash, if you run this stationary it will overheat quickly. But it is a very simple engine, and the ones they slap on drones aren't build to the standard of the german original.They won't last - but they also don't cost 17,000$. They cost 1,800$. From china.If you buy a container and figure out yourself how to dodge sanctions, that is.With sanction tax and the current premiums ofc prices can be inflated.You bet the fucking russkies make this thing for the cost of 20 bottles of vodka.
>>64967294Machining to sufficient tolerances repeatedly is an actual cost, anon.>Setting up casting line>Yes each cast assembly costs hundreds in raw alloy stock but you need to actually use market rates, energy costs and paying for labor (even Russians won't work for free) since castings need to be cleaned a little>Setting that shit up in a machining center, dealing with any embedded grit that'll accelerate carbide wear rates>Doing QC so your engines don't shit themselves after flying for 30 minutes because your carbide tooling is worn out and tolerances were slipping>Price of carbide has skyrocketed too>Machine shop could be making other shit for more profit if you're subcontracting outAll that shit adds up to real money whether you're Chinese or Russian.
>>64967294>They cost 1,800$.>If you buy a container >You bet the fucking russkies make this thing for the cost of 20 bottles of vodka.>look mom, i posted it againGeez, he is still going. But i guess when you believe and parrot the russian porpaganda you kind a need to be a certain degree of stupid and brain damaged.
you can always tell this particular lolcow >>64965473 by his awful spelling
>>64967714>whine about muh boogeyman>do the same thing a little laterThe insane asylum isn't sending their best.
Nobody tell him, okay?
>>64955428The only good part of Shahed draggy kite design is its good for takeoffs and rapid deployment since its compact and doesn't need a removable wing. The US should have gone straight to next generation mini cruise missiles - prop in tension, slick fuselage, high aspect ratio wing for speed, snappy takeoff. Optimized for anti-interception not rapid deployment.
>>64967753We already have half a dozen different cruise missiles for that.
>>64967753I thought about this due to the other thread on an Iranian drone-launched anti-air missileif you want speed and "snappy takeoff" you need to bolt a rocket-assisted takeoff on to a LUCAS. go back to the very first US surface-to-air missile, the BOMARC. it was basically a primitive jet plane with a couple of rocket motors for very-short-takeoff that would drop off after burnout.
>>64967312>I'm dumbWe know.>>64967346>I'm also dumbWe know.
>>64967889>you need to bolt a rocket-assisted takeoff on to a LUCASHow do you think LUCAS is launched?
>>64967892good pointhigher impulse rocket then
