Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't FLAK guns be much better and cheaper at drone killing than these million dollar missile systems? I mean surely someone is doing it?
>>64966737What do you think Ukrainians are using against drones? It certainly isn't ESSMs/SM-2s.
You are right anon thats why these systems are kinda making a comback
>>64966737Yes
>>64966749>What do you think Ukrainians are using against drones?
>>64966737Yes. And even have proof via 1970's Gepard and now Skynex both downing Shaheds.The problem is simply that the leadership is focused on big-ticket & offensive spectacle. There's also a slow and fairly min-maxxed selection process.Tools like picrel, or Stryker M-CUAS, or LEONIDAS, et al, will continue to slowly fall apart in motorpools while allied Arab oil depots continue to quickly fly apart.
>>64966905>>64966766It blows my mind that these drones travel ad sub 300 MPH and we've had systems for shooting down flying aircraft since WW2 that can do the job and yet countries dump billions into expensive ass missile systems for anti drone ops when for that price they could make hundreds of 40 mm Bofors clones
>>64966924Flak cannons aren't a silver bullet, despite working. Because their range isn't that big, so you'll need a fuck ton of them.
>>64966737You're not gonna believe this
>>64966929Adjusted for inflation one 40 mm Bofors gun is 150k-300k. Ammo is 180–220. You average anti-drone missile is 100k-200k. Of course the radar guidance and all that would tack on a couple million, but in the long run Flak guns would be cheaper. This is likely well known by countries that are planning drone and ant-drone warfare, Like China.
>>64966905 (me)Oh, and even better I should've posted M163 VADS, a damn Vietnam-vintage 113 mod.Ppl sometimes look at AD tracks like Shilka or Gepard and say, "oh and I bet it would shred ground targets in ground fire support too wouldn't it?" and usually it's all theoretical, yet in Desert Storm VADS actually did get some anti-ground action since air targets were slim. And it shredded ground targets.We've min-maxxed ourselves into a corner for the moment. It will feel like an eternity until the Pentagon gets its head out of its ass l.Btw this would be a perfect time for Palmer Luckey Anduril to swoop in and save the day Hawaiian-print style. Where's that fucker?... yeah....
>>64966737>40mm gun 1 km range $3000>40mm gun 3 km range $30000 (10rds)>Ukraine tek 25 km range $2500
>>64966946
>>64966941>Adjusted for inflation one 40 mm Bofors gun is 150k-300k. Ammo is 180–220.Dozens of rounds to hit Shahed at 1 km range with impact fuse. Hundreds to hit notorious Lancet.
>>64966946Good, now stock pile hundreds of thousands of them for drone swarms. Guns are simply better for the low height, low speed, drones. The fact many nations are bring FLAK out of retirement proves they are just better and cheaper for drone killing. It is far easier and cheaper to produces and stockpile thousands upon thousands of rounds of FLAK ammo that can also be repurposed to anti infantry needs if need be. >>64966962Still cheaper and easier to stocks loads of ammo. Again, real world militaries agree. Hence reviving flak platforms.
>>64966946>>64966953Earlier today on some Fox interview with "Brian Kilmeade," Trump ruled out getting Ukrainian help. So no, we won't be getting Sting or Wild Hornets advice.Petty cunt doesn't want to owe Zelensky favors, I guess.With luck, the allied Arabs who ARE taking Ukie advice will compensate for our chief moron.
Giant flak guns and the big vehicle to haul them are a giant arty target. The true future system is a combo of cheap missiles for long range/important targets with a backup machine gun for swatting cheap homebuild type of shit. Something small enough to be mounted in a pickup bed via pallet system where it can then be dumped off at a location if needed.
>>64966988You raise a good follow-up question as to why L3Harris isn't absolutely Taco Bell-shitting out APKWS / Vampire kits.
>>64966941It's all about radars, sensors, computing and automated targeting. Also, ideally with programmable fuse ammo. That's isn't as cheap.But yeah, using serious conventions AA missiles is retarded.Ukie drone interceptors are a 10-15 thousand per drone, down to a couple thousands a pop if the order is big enough.
>>64966982 >Trump ruled out getting Ukrainian help.Guess Volodya's home video collection, starring Donnie cornholing lolis, really is that big.
>>64967000>APKWS $30000 8 km range>Sting $2500 25 km range
>>64966974Hundreds of thousands???
>>64966974>Good, now stock pile hundreds of thousands of them Just place an order, ukies will make a million of them for you kek>for drone swarmsNigger please
>>64966982>Trump ruled out getting Ukrainian helpHe literally lied, Ze man confirmed afterwards that US asked for ukie support
>>64967022Well now that my head cooled off a little.We don't know what's happening realistically.This could be a Hitler vs the StG-44 situation. Maybe we've got military staff trying to get Ukrainian help without Trump realizing.It's also possible that CENTCOM or some Pentaton went asking, then Trump caught wind, and shut it down officially.We must wait and see... (more unnecessary explosions and dead client-civvies)
>>64966749>>64966941>>64966737War is a circle. A few years ago everyone mocked the DPRKs massive numbers of AA guns and habit of putting a KPV on anything that moved, now any nation threatened by cheap drones would love to have 1000+ radar guided ZPU batteries or functioning KS-19s.
>>64967044Funny thing is, the stockpile was purely pragmatic. They used what they had. Howes to show keeping "old" stock of military junk can pay off. Gets me thinking about how Russia could have made a better opening offensive if they secretly got thousands of those tanks in storage up to snuff for the opening push in the war.
>>64967047>if Russia had...that pile of "ifs" could rebuild the WTC
>>64967017Yes, Drone Swarms. Swarms of drones. Not a hard concept. Iran and Ukraine have shown us how effective and annoying drones are. Taking out much more expensive targets. They have also shown use that current anti-air theory is expensive, not enough. Again, you can store millions of rounds of anti-air rounds, you can make millions of rounds far cheaper than thousands of drones. We already have the infrastructure for making bullets, every country does. You cannot argue this. It is the reason FLAK is making a comeback and old aa systems are being revised or unretired. Until you can make anti-drone drones as quickly as you can make bullets, bullets with always be better.
>>64966924>countries dump billions into expensive ass missile systems for anti drone ops when for that price they could make hundreds of 40 mm Bofors clonesYou're forgetting the important part, cheap effective weapons systems are not as lucrative. It shouldn't come as any surprise that not only are the permanent members of the UNSC the biggest weapons suppliers, but they're also the ones controlling the sales of weapons to other countries through both sanctions and 'peacekeeping activities'.
>>64966962>with impact fuse.This isn't 1930, we have proximity fuses now
>>64967092This is the main reason. Until drones start hitting the MICs bottom line, they will keep pushing 150k USD missiles and their support for shooting down 500 dollar drones.
>>64966737FLAK is outdated and useless, but anti-aircraft guns are a valid solution to large drones
>>64966982This >>64967022, Zelensky in a very indirect way basically said that Trump's bullshit is pretty much that.I'd imagine he's very much used to it now.
>>64967047It is a weird national pride thing. Because of how it suffered from US air power KPVs were the second weapon the DPRK was ever able to manufacture domestically, the first being their PPsH variant the Type 50. They actually could make KPVs before they could make rifles. Sung just said 'fuck it make more KPVs!' and things just got out of hand. Now suddenly they are useful. In Sung's defense i don't think anyone ever complained about losing a war because they had a quarter million 14.5mm HMG barrels at their disposal. >>64967052>If Russia had....Well they didn't did they? Now their armor, artillery and MLRS stockpiles are dwarfed by...Oh wait, thats right, North fucking Korea.>>64967178KS-19s are amazingly useful guns (not just as AAA but as regular artillery) if modernised, they are probably the best autoloading ground based DP gun ever mass produced. Of course Soviet missile retardation saw them abandoned so only a few people (PRC until recently, DPRK) actually use them in a updated AAA network. Pic: My true Norkfu equipment wise. She can fit into a ZSU-2 mount so she can go into those twin 14.5mm turrets they love so much.
>>64966737the main issue you run into with flak is the fuse timing. there's solutions, but if you go with the cheapest possible flak options you have to make sure your ammo is the right range, or you need a direct hit to score a kill. that's why the modern iterations being researched and deployed use proximity fusing or variable fusing. so you can't just take an old flak gun out of storage and hope to knock drones out of the sky.
>>64967000>Hilux not included
