What's king, penetration or expansion? And does it make a difference for pistols vs small caliber high velocity rounds like 5.56 vs full rifle rounds vs buckshot vs shotgun slugs or is it always the same damage modus operandi?
>>64971058.t gayTF
>>64971058>penetration or expansionWhy not both?
>>64971058fragmentation
>>64971058that game has tarded ballistics sometimes
>>64971058You need a bullet that will penetrate deeply enough to damage the CNS, blood vessels, blood-carrying organs, break bones, etc. while still causing a large enough secondary wound channel to maximize trauma and bleeding in the event that a CNS hit is not made. Different calibers, velocities, bullet weights, and bullet constructions will all have different trade-offs between these areas. Your selection depends on the intended target and purpose of the bullet. Above all else, the skill and accuracy of the shooter is paramount, no matter what is chosen.
>>64971058Hunting is different because you have the option to wait for the optimal shot alignment or have the option to not shoot at all.This is not a choice in self defense. It has to do the most work form any shot angle, meaning most tissue destruction.
>>64971060expansion tends to retard penetration
>>64971058Penetration. I've killed hundreds of deer with dozens of different calibers and bullet designs. Five black bear, one grizzly, more coyote and hogs than I could ever care to actually count. 62gr barnes vortx doesn't have a notably smaller wound on a broadside large body deer than either 160gr or 180gr of 30-06, same all copper bullet. I have seen both drop deer dead where they stood, and others run 100yds, all with jelly where their heart had been.I have seen and finished a lot of wounded deer. 99% of them are just awful shot placement. The other 1% are just creatures built different, like a cull spike horn tanking a .54cal muzzle loader at 50yds through both lungs, another hit clipping his heart while passing through both lungs, and needing to finally be finished off with a knife to the throat. His chest cavity above the diaphragm looked more like a semi truck impact than a gunshot wound. Don't know what he was made of, but wow.But for the most part, nothing survives long with a hole through the lungs, and nothing survives a hole through the heart. If your bullet is capable of piercing through the targeted vitals, the rest is basically fairy dust and skinwalker farts. I use primarily monolith solids (barnes vortx is awesome stuff) now just because it shoots consistently and I am lead adverse now.For what it's worth, every bear I killed was with 180gr core lokt 30-30 out of a model 94 and, inexplicably, it has also "stoned" more deer than any other caliber I own. Including a .300wby which, while producing gaping exit wounds, doesn't seem to actually kill deer any faster.As for handguns I carry whatever 147gr hollow point 9x19 I have on hand. Aim for the heart and so long as you penetrate, they'll die.
>>64971058Imagine capturing on film the exact moment the bullet entered this guy's balls, his pain is expressed so vividly.
>>64971103have you ever shot a standing animal with your 9mm?
>>64971108Several wounded deer I've helped track and more hogs than can be bothered with. It kills just fine. When I drop a trap on a weekday and need to just clear the pen, I don't run home to grab a rifle. I just smoke them with the pistol I'm wearing.
>>64971103>I've killed hundreds of deerStopped reading right there
>>64971114Interesting. Last year I had a mule deer I hit with a glancing shot. At some point when tracking it I came within about 20 yards of it and had my pistol aimed at it, but didn't take the shot because I lost confidence in my 9mm being able to penetrate the vitals of a head on deer. That moment convinced me to buy a 10mm. Glad to know I overreacted and wasted money.
>>64971147could be a culler on a farm
>>64971147I'm a crop permit shooter for several farmers and Michigan offers unlimited doe tags while Texas allows 5 deer. My job takes me between both states and I almost entirely eat game. It's not unusual for me to kill half a dozen does in a single evening over a basedbean field. When my freezers are full, I give them away to anybody that wants one and will come and get it themselves. One farmer digs a pit every year and anything we can't give away goes in the pit. Hate to waste the meat but his fields are unreal goose hunting and I get basically private access by being a shooter for him.>>64971152Head on 20yds is fine with a 9mm. It's not an ideal shot but I've also done it. Study game anatomy from all angles and you'll better understand the dynamics to where you don't have to stop and think about it. I generally carry a 1895 45-70 when tracking wounded game for others because it's usually dark and I get annoyed following blood for hundreds and hundreds of yards for guys who boast about magnum calibers and yet don't ever seem to make good shots with them.
>>64971152Was the deer wearing Kevlar
>>64971176you never know bud
>>64971174How do you get in on such a job?
>>649711529mm would’ve penetrated it fine, 10mm will just penetrate it more authoritatively.
>>64971201Job or crop shooting? Job is in a giant industrial services company. As for crop shooting, meet some farmers. Most will gladly let you kill deer for them, there's usually a lack of guys good at it or guys who don't leave a fucking mess. I've been doing it long enough now that I have a handful of farmers I shoot for to get more or less private field access for waterfowl. As much as I eat deer, duck is by far and away my favorite.
>>64971147PHs in Africa who killed literal thousands of elephants back in the day will basically say the same thing. Read up on W.D.M. “Karamojo” Bell.
>>64971209Fuck off Nolan, no one cares.
>>64971209Ah I see, I misunderstood your post and thought you meant that game shooting was your job. Thanks for the replies.
>Not same trajectoryGAY
>>64971103Once had a deer run over 50 yards after getting hit at under 10 yards with a 3" Brenneke. When we cut it open the heart, one lung, one shoulder and part of the spine were gone.
>>64971235Who the fuck is Nolan?>>64971242Nope it's a hobby and cheap meat. Most farmers are pretty damn amicable to honest dudes who ask permission to hunt their fields. I still scout fields and ask the landowner if I can hunt it. Very few ever refuse. Once you're in with a few farmers, more of them know of you. If you're good at waterfowl hunting and they tag along and have their best day ever, even better. Be polite and clean up after yourself.
>>64971267I've had deer fall over dead with a simple double lung via 125gr G5 delivered with an old Matthews Outback which pushes around 300fps. I've had them bolt over 100yds missing a heart entirely. My own personal theory is it comes down to if their heart is expanding or contracting, and that a healthy mature whitetail can go a long way at a full sprint on one good pump of blood.I don't know the dynamics of why I have more deer fall dead where they stood using a 30-30. I use larger calibers, I use faster calibers, I use more modern bullet constructions. Remington hit on some bizarre black magic with their 180gr corelokt in that caliber, though. I've actually stopped using the 180gr Barnes in 3006 because the 160 seems to down game faster on average, given the same shot placement. Copper monos are speed reliant so there's that I suppose. I also enjoy .243 as a great all-rounder. Suppose I'm firmly in the camp that caliber in general doesn't matter and it's all shot placement. I wouldn't use military ammo just because I don't like pieces of jacket in my meat, although as a kid I killed a lot of hogs with 55gr fmj and head shots.
OP is LatinX
>>64971303>My own personal theory is it comes down to if their heart is expanding or contracting, and that a healthy mature whitetail can go a long way at a full sprint on one good pump of blood.Not a bad one. I once read that hunters in Africa noticed that some rhinos shot in the heart would die immediately while others would run and die later. When they dissected them, it was found that ones that died immediately also had several ruptured blood vessels in the brain while ones that did not die immediately did not. The theory was that a full heart that had not yet pumped the blood out of its ventricles out would cause immense hydraulic shock upon penetration of a bullet that it would burst the vessels in the brain and kill the rhino immediately.
>>64971103>>64971267You two, watch The Anatomy Hunter. Dude is my kind of autistic and seriously doing what I theorized was possible but done MUCH easier than I had considered. I mean, skinning a bear and opening its ribcage up in the field to pour bondo into it to mold the heart and figure out placement of organs autistic. One of the, if not the inventor of the 3D foam deer target with organs autistic. He has some theories on why good shots don't always work. One is whether the lungs are fully expanded or not when the arrow/bullet impacts and the other is kinda what's already been said; no two animals or situations are the same.
>>64971303Oh and you anon, read >>64971714. He mainly focuses on deer. Pic semi rel.
>>64971058>What's king, penetration or expansion?Penetration. Expansion is great in cases where penetration is basically irrelevant (ie. varminting) but outside of that it's pretty much ancillary.>And does it make a difference for pistols vs small caliber high velocity rounds like 5.56 vs full rifle rounds vs buckshot vs shotgun slugs or is it always the same damage modus operandi?It makes a massive difference. When you penetrate something with something else, like a durr with a bullet, you create cavitation. However, there are two different kinds of cavitation: permanent and temporary. Permanent cavitation is exactly what it sounds like on the tin while temporary cavitation is an elastic deformation - that is to say, the hole you make closes up again.While permanent cavitation is caused by any penetrating trauma, temporary cavitation is caused by velocity and with very few exceptions projectiles from handguns and shotguns don't reach the velocities necessary for this (at least not in a meaningful way) and their lethal mechanism relies on causing permanent cavitation and poking a [diameter]-sized hole through whatever they hit. Projectiles traveling faster than ~2200fps or so, on the other hand, cause significant temporary cavitation and the pressure wave they generate can cause huge damage to sensitive areas like the spine and the heart even without direct contact. It's more complicated than that IRL (for example, the temporary cavitation velocity threshold is inversely correlated with projectile mass so shotgun slugs can cause temporary cavitation at much lower velocities than, say, a 115gr .355 bullet from a 9x19) but down that path lies autism, LARPerating and fuddlore. You have been warned.tl;dr penetration kills but expansion helps it kill quicker and velocity is the most important factor in firearm lethality>>64971714>>64971729Giga-based recommendation.
>>64971102>tends toThats why you have more sectional density and energy rather than become a single minded fag
>>64971058For wildlife it depends. Bears and boars you want hard cast. cats and dogs you want expansion.
>>64971058Penetration, always. Expansion is for liability purposes, so a police round doesn't go through the person and hit someone else. Or yours if you live in an apartment. Basically hollowpoints are for cucks. Oh wow, your 9mm round expanded to 14mm? Big deal, it doesn't matter. Mine actually made an exit wound so you're bleeding out of 2 holes.
>>64971873>bears and boars you want hard castYeah, not quite. Hogs are easy. Black bear is easy. Normal spitzers are fine for that. Or fjhp mag pistol is fine too. Moving up to brown bear and grizz is next level. Blasting hard slugs at these is retarded unless you're doing it at range in open country. If you're hunting in brush and your stand-off is less than 300m, you really, really need a max energy dump in the game with every shot. That means a heavy belted mag cartridge right off the bat and expanding spitzers, boat tails, or plastic ballistic tips. Fucking around with hardballs in the brush is a good way to get dead.
>>64971869we don't sign our posts here
>>64971890You just did
>>64971873>>64971886>>64971884the meat eaters guy and I think like spomer and/or the buffalo bore guy, I don't remember, but the meat eater guy was in africa and he was using a bolt gun that had a copper hollow point as the first mag in the ground followed by copper solids and his guide I think was using copper solids in a double rifle
>>64971896Africa is an entirely different proposition. You're facing extreme penetration problems there with rhino, elephant and insane water buff, so you make it up with nitro-express doubles. It's all about energy dump. Got to get the energy in the cavity first, then dump it.
>>64971303.243 is underrated.
>>64971886>hardballs in the brush is a good way to get deadDepends on how many you use.https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/ak-74-vs-brown-bear-outside-of-anchorage.182309/#post-3217888
>>64971948That's not hunting, asshat. That's obscene.
>>64971303Heart shot kills slower because blood pressure stays static and the deer running is a little like them giving themselves CPR.While the Hilar shot (invented in New Zealand) hits the blood vessels and nerves but also keeps the heart intact, it quickly pumps the blood out of the internal wounds and causes a rapid loss of blood pressure
>>64971058faggot muslim threaddeport them all
>>64971886>you really, really need a max energy dump in the game with every shotNo, you don't. You need something that will expand reliably and will penetrate without a single fuck given about how many bones are in the way. Heavy controlled expansion bullets like A-Frames are the gold standard for anything especially large and/or tough.>That means a heavy belted mag cartridge right off the batOh fuck off; in coastal Alaska outside of Kodiak most grizzly boars are ~850lb (about the same weight as a small-ish moose and about half the weight of a cape buffalo) and those are on average several hundred pounds larger than the ones in the interior and Canada which are basically the size of a large black bear. Something in the neighborhood of .35 Whelen or 9.3x62 or a stout .45-70 is plenty adequate for everything except the real monsters, like if you're going to Kodiak to try for a new world record or if you somehow get permission to to kill a polar bear or something similarly outlandish. While the most common choice for guides in big bear country is indeed the .338 WM, which is a belted magnum, it only has about ~300 foot-pounds over the non-belted cartridges I listed and I would be willing to bet that heavy -06 loads have accounted for more brown and grizzly meat in the freezer in North America than anything else by a comfortable margin. At least as far as "ethical" cartridges are concerned; I'm not counting natives popping game animals in the head with rimfires and .223.
>>64971975Bullshit. A deer heart shot blasts both lungs too if it's from the flank. They drop like a fucking rock. That's bad shot placement in any case, because it fucks shoulder meat. Neck shots are superior. Cut, or shock the superior spine and no meat is damaged and you don't have to chase anything. Ever. And nobody in New Zealand "invented" a shooting technique, midwit. Woodsmen in North America were deerslaying 200 years before a white guy set foot on kiwiland.
>>64971886I recommend 416 Ruger, it's like a Rigby but cheaper and the guns chambered in it aren't $15,000
>>64971996Literally nothing you posted there refutes anything I said, dumbass. Getting the energy IN AND LEAVING IT THERE is the point. Secondly, >the most common choice of guides in bear country is .338 magshould have made you stop for 2 seconds and think before you stepped on your dick.
>>64971152Wait so you never shot the animal with a 9mm but became convinced by ghosts and dreams that it wouldn't work, and so bought another gun?
>>64971983what the fuck are you talking about?
>>64972036do you not?
>>64971929>zippy and does well to distance on calm days>minimal recoil >grenades vitalsIt's wild it was invented in 1955 and still competing today with all the sneedmore and arcs and whatever else. Great for a kids first deer rifle, and my dad still hunts with one because it's a light rifle and the recoil isn't hard on his bad shoulder.>>64971975Double shoulder isn't a kiwi thing you fag. Hunters here still do it in droves and it's for some reason synonymous with the 3006. But it ruins the front shoulders which is fine meat for burger, jerky, etc.
>>64971975>Heart shot kills slower because blood pressure stays static and the deer running is a little like them giving themselves CPR.That doesn't make any sense, ignoring the massive loss in blood pressure from the destruction of the heart and all the blood in the atria and ventricles dumping out; CPR is just artificially pumping the heart which is now a giant crater or has a gaping hole in it at best, meaning by that logic, it's dumping blood from it's circulatory system as the animal runs.
>>64972009>Getting the energy IN AND LEAVING IT THERE is the point.That's not what you said. If you want a "max energy dump" then use a frangible bullet - it'll dump all of its energy at once. If you meant something else you should have said something else.>Secondly,>>the most common choice of guides in bear country is .338 mag>should have made you stop for 2 seconds and think before you stepped on your dick.Guides are always over-gunned and their recommendations for people coming up to hunt are also always excessive because they want Flatland McFudd to be able to break both shoulders at 300 yards with a point-and-click shot despite the fact that most of the shots are going to take place inside of 100. I've lived in coastal Alaska and I'm telling you that heavy -06 is hands-down the most common cartridge for putting a brown in the freezer and most of the locals who are also "gun guys" prefer heavy non-belted cartridges for hunting browns and slug guns for bear protection.
>>64971743Dude randomly popped up in my recommendations one day and I about shit a brick; I just wish there was someone like that who focused on smaller game as well. His method of using sharpie on the heart to preserve orientation was something I'd never have thought of. Honestly I'd probably overcomplicate it and figure freezing would be necessary for what he does.
>>64971102Not a real concern on anything larger than pocket pistols or on game less than 500lbs. You live with little to no expansion in .32 and .380. If you’re shooting elk or anything larger, there are a plethora of rifles that can shoot clean through the animal lengthwise AND have expansion.
Penetration. I hunt whitetails and the occasional mulie with 6.5 creedmoor and in my experience expansion bullets will kill a big buck but also make them a bitch and a half to find afterwards. Most of the shots I take are between 100-200 but I’m not scared of pushing out to 440. Sometimes the wind, terrain, and deer just won’t make things easy.As far as shot placement I prefer the shoulder. The scapula is the gold standard in my book but I tend to aim low because accuracy when you’re cold as fuck typically goes down for everyone. Assuming a 200 yard zero that puts you right on the money anyway at 100 and I’d rather focus on my shot that perfectly ranging an animal. Dropping dead on impact is the ideal outcome imo even at the expense of some meat. I’m also of the opinion that it makes more bad shots into clean hits or misses than the traditional heart shot does. Since I started targeting the shoulder I’ve noticed a big difference in deer dropping immediately, dropping sooner, and more opportunity for follow up shots as it really slows them down.
>>64971103Culling tags or are you old as hell? Good write up either way. I agree with everything you said. It comes down to shot placement. People get way too worked up on caliber and power.It’s funny you mention .30-30 because back in its day that was the high velocity, powerful .30 cal rifle. It was eclipsed shortly later obviously, but it was powerful when introduced. Animals haven’t gotten tougher since then.
>>64973419I think it was technically power crept before it even came out. .30-40 and I think .303 savage are both older than .30-30 and are more powerful higher velo but winchester had better marketing and it's not like .30-30 doesn't work
