Do battle rifles still make sense in modern engagements? Whether from a fighting the govt standpoint or warfare in general?
>>64973583They make sense as DMRs or possibly if used by a country that has a lot of really barren open land where firefights over 500m are likely. Otherwise no, not really. They are just really cool.A short barreled version is mostly idiotic because it is neither fish nor fowl. Only good for shredding through walls but that's a dumb feature to focus on in the first place.For civilian use they make some sense because they don't lose much from not having a fully automatic function, but the weight penalty is still substantial. Great for hog hunting though.
>>64973619I always wondered why you saw so many short barreled battle rifles in the GWOT. HK 417 assaulter, SCAR H CQC, G3kA4 all 12-13 inch barrels.
>>64973583I don't see why they wouldn't? A gun is a gun, just use what you like
If you need to punch body armor, get through barriers to get at people, or need to get through vehicle armor, real fuckin' NATO is a lot more persuasive than 5.56 with the appropriate ammo.
the only way it would make sense is if they could build a mildly economical round that punched through modern ceramic plates.
>>64973623I think they were trying to minmax them to get the best of both worlds. GWOT often involved vehicle deployment (helicopters and MRAPs) so the rifles had to be short, plus a lot of room clearing. At the same time they wanted more range than an 11.5" 5.56mm rifle can offer, being able to penetrate mud walls and have better probability of a hit dropping a target beyond a few hundred meters. A short battle rifle can theoretically do that, but is damn near unusable in full auto, longer than a comparable carbine because the receiver is still longer even if the barrel is cut down, and still relatively heavy/awkward. 7.62x51mm does suffer a little bit less from short barrels than 5.56mm but it does suffer. A short .300 BLK or 7.62x39mm carbine would have made more sense.I don't think this concept was ever particularly successful, but I defer to anyone else who may have had actual experience using these types of weapons in the sandbox because I haven't. I've only shot some at a range.
>>64973656Not happening unless new propellant is developed that allows XM1186 or M80A1 (6.8 or 7.62) to greatly exceed current velocity. They aren't quite up to par with M2AP at 2,910ft/s, which is the Level IV spec you need to significantly beat.Tungsten-rated plates are more common and cheaper than they've ever been, so if you're trying to just clear Level IV you're two steps behind.
>>64973675Here comes the plate retard. Just fucking magdump them idiot. Nobody is shooting at plates. If you know the cunt is wearing good armor just shoot neck/head/pelvis. Defeating body armor is a completely unserious requirement for a round.M2AP is for punching through cold war era lightly armored trucks not body armor
>>64973689nigger shut your public range only ass up. you don't even do work in a bay. no one is impressed by you saying "bro just aim for their pelvis" when you cant even do that in tarkov, you just tell other people to do it.
>>64973689>Just fucking magdump them idiotThis was discussed before, you're aiming AROUND the plate which means unless you can hit the head / neck you aren't getting vitals. You're also likely going to just trade hits with who you're engaging. Hypothetically what happens if you mag dump your opponent, he mag dumps you, you're both bleeding out in the femorals, fucked up pelvis, with no immediate aid available? You aren't getting away clean. Or you could just punch the plate with the appropriate ammo, and mag dump said plate to maximize effectiveness. Maybe you'll hit the head too! Great!>If you know the cunt is wearing good armor just shoot neck/head/pelvisYes, because the average person is going to be able to boom headshot people on the move like he's CAG. Please watch the average cop shooting to see the types of "average" concerned with dudes wearing plates. They aim center mass for a reason.The pelvis is much easier to hit than the head, but is not a vital area like what's covered by the plates. They'll bleed out, but a lot slower than if you take the heart out. If they're drugged and/or adrenalized they can remain combat effective until they exsanguinate. You could end up trading kills. Even if you destroy the heart, the brain still has up to 15 seconds of oxygenated blood. You have to mag dump plate or no plate.>Defeating body armor is a completely unserious requirement for a roundGood lord, what the hell is 6.8 XM1184 supposed to be doing then? Or the new 7.62 M1158? Or 7N37, or 7N39, or DVC-12, or frankly even M855A1 - which while not purpose based AP does a bang up job against basic Level III business.>M2AP is for punching through cold war era lightly armored trucks not body armorIt's actually from WW2, not the cold war, and yet does the job so well against body armor it's been the NIJ's round of choice for Level IV protection since 1971.
>>64973689
Yes because 5.56 is a little bitch round for faggots that has only managed to survive this long due to almost exclusive use on pajama wearing rice farmers, goat herders, and narco monkeys and it still requires multiple center mass hits most of the time to really bring them down in blatant under performance. If it can’t do the job consistently with one shot it’s shit and /arg/ trannies need to get the fuck over it because ultimately it is fine even if not ideal for home defense and none of them are actually going to be duking it out with the feds or the blue helmets anyway so they can enjoy their fag shit.300 Win Mag should be standard issue.>Youre retardedYou’re a pussy and a fag>But m-muh capacityIf you don’t have to shoot someone multiple times capacity doesn’t matter fag>B-but muh recoilThe fact you cry about recoil is proof you’re a pussy and a fag>But muh p-plates!300 Win Mag with AP rounds have been proven to regularly punch through even level 4 plates>W-well barrel life!We spend billions of dollars on all kinds of retarded shit and you’re bitching about barrel life on a rifle? Shut the fuck up fag.>…O-over penetration though!Sounds like a problem for whoever is standing behind the enemy fag.
>>64973816You're out of line but correct. M2AP at 3,200 or above claps even serious IV+ plates like XSAPIs and Adept Colossi.
>>64973830>You're out of lineOut of line for the fag parade maybe.
>>64973835In the year 2077, what makes someone a criminal?Getting cock (through a Level IV codpiece).The big question is how to get .300win performance out of a platform that isn't an existential crisis to do close quarters with.
>>64973583>still make senseNo, they still don’t make sense. They have always been a meme category. They exist, and will continue to exist, because of war gamer fallacies, and because they are simply cool.
>>64973842With ear pro standard issue I fail to see the problem.
>>64973859You need a good length barrel to get .300 winmag up to Level IV punching velocity. Muzzle flash indoors will be excessive unless you use a suppressor. Use a suppressor and now the gun is a metaphorical yardstick that'll be awkward to run corners with.If recoil is a problem you'll need a brake, which makes the flash issue a lot more serious AND may be too much even for a lot of ear pro.Since we're on the topic, it's about a pound to a pound and a half between plates which stop M2AP at 2,910ft/s and plates that stop M2AP at 3,500ft/s or above. My Protech 2230s are over a decade old and stop M2AP at 3,510 at 7.5lb. They do not take advantage of the great leaps made in PE and ceramic technology since 2015.If our guys are rolling on dudes with big ass .300 winmag musketoons it's only reasonable OPFOR will roll heavier plates. The battle between sword and shield continues.
>>64973583Sexy rifle.
>>64973870>Barrel lengthBest argument I’ve heard yet. It can be mitigated with a bullpup design>Muzzle flashIf you’re down range you’re always wearing shades/eye pro or nods anyway and for CQB this is a bigger issue for the enemy than a kitted out American soldier. Ziggers never wear ear or eye pro from what I’ve seen and the potential for this weapon to disable the enemy through sheer concussion is a realistic possibility At the end of the day though this falls firmly under the stop being a faggot category of issue resolution imo.>Better armorLook you can play the cat and mouse game of better armor and better armor penetration forever. At the end of the day you’re not going to convince me that just fragging out some juiced up bug man in a juggernaut suit or rolling in tanks is inferior or that .338 wouldn’t also fuck extremely hard but we’re talking about standard issue vs standard issue.>LeafsLevel 3>French3>RussiaI dont even believe the BR5 is level 3 if I’m honest>ChinaI’ll believe their temu dogshit is level 3 when I see it with my own eyes>IndiaTechnically possible they’d have level 4 since it’s procured on battalion, brigade, or personal level but I fucking doubt it
>>64973619fair
>looking at semiauto .308>its all 12-14"I feel with .308 out of a 16" would be one of the few times that barrel length would actually excell and make sense.
>>64973935I'll give you credit, you're good. I'll address each point in turn.>It can be mitigated with a bullpup designRM277 should have won the XM7 competition, I agree. It had some issues but so does the SIG. With how the program HAD to pick one, should have been the bullpup.>for CQB this is a bigger issue for the enemy than a kitted out American soldierI'm concerned about our dudes' NODs. They'll autogate from these cannons and disrupt effective flow state operations if you catch my 1-800-tactalk drift.>Ziggers never wear ear or eye pro from what I’ve seenYeah they're retarded.>Look you can play the cat and mouse game...Agreed. Russians are rolling "BR5+" Granits rated for 7N37 with test report to prove it, but not in significant numbers. Chinese are getting very good, as seen with Militech, LAPG, and Longfri, at basic Level IV on the cheap. There is significant corroborative evidence that Adept sources the ceramic for the Archon and Colossus from China. Gilliam makes his IV++ 8002 plate using Chinese materials, which is tested for .300 winmag Swiss P AP - that's serious tungsten core. It's also $314 a plate if you want it.>just fragging out...Yeah, explosives cheat code armor. This has been known. Plates ironically matter more if we're talking CONUS civil unrest, because explosives aren't as common.> or that .338 wouldn’t also fuck extremely hardOh it would. .338 Swiss P AP or AP529 or 7N49 clears almost all known plates (all commercially available ones).>but we’re talking about standard issue vs standard issue.Of course. Russia can't even standard issue BR5, let alone the new BR5+ business.>I dont even believe the BR5...It's held up to B-32 API fine, or even M2AP at lower velocity. Keep in mind they use it with soft armor and a CAP heavy duty trauma panel, so it's bulky as shit but BFD is super low.>I’ll believe their temu dogshitSee Buffman.>IndiaThey did a crash course on B4C and SiC and their armor industry is actually decent.
>>64973935Also, if you ever want to laugh at how far ahead American armor is versus everybody else, see pic rel. DEVGRU Ceradyne plates from the early 2010s or so that literally weigh four pounds a pop. Concealable, apparently Level IV standalone. Sadly Ceradyne is toast so the best you're going to get is a set of four pound LTCs that only stop B-32 API or 3.5lb LSAPIs that stop M855A1 + M80 + BZ API.A set'a'these was for sale on ebay for $4,250 (yeah) but the listing got yanked.
Desert Tech SRS-M2 with some modifications sounds like the ticket>Chambered in 300 WM and .338 LM and easily interchangeable>Bullpup designCuts down on length>26” barrelFuck your plates>37” OALStill shorter than those old M16s>9.3 lbsWe can put her on a diet>Adjustable triggerBased>Range1325m>Magazine CapacityThe real issue. Anything more than a 10 round mag makes shooting from the prone position at an upward angle impossible. For CQB this would not be an issue.>Pic rail mounts for accessorizingAlso it’s owned by racist polygamist mountain Jews so the politicians will never give them the contract it deserves.
>>64973989We're gonna quickscope the enemy? God damn that's based. Cue the music:>https://youtu.be/FXLY_5xaYFo?list=RDFXLY_5xaYFo&t=111Anyways, yeah, unless the Chinese truly master the B4C-TiB2 ceramic they patented a year or two ago they can't match that with plates of reasonable weight.
>>64973995Just trim the stock down, get rid of the fancy pistol grip, slap an EOTech on top, and swap the bipod for a k grip and we’re good to go.
>>64974000I can't deny those digits. I say we award the ammo contract to DSG and purchase their 308-grain XMP ultraheavy 7.62x51 AP but in .300 winmag.1. Barriers, bye-bye.2. Plates behind the barriers, bye-bye.3. The guy standing behind the guy you're shooting at, bye-bye.
>>64974013>The average grunt can now disable an entire supply convoy
>>64974031Why stop there? Load it into M134 miniguns on tracked UGVs. Empty the whole belt into those bitches, and your budget.
>>64973960>Explosives cheat code armorThe further we get into the weapons development tree the more obvious it becomes the Geneva Convention is gay and should be ignored and that the XM-25 was the solution all along.
>>64974054You are now aware RUAG manufactures exotic thermobarics called Starblast and preformed tungsten fragmentation grenades called Pearl which are designed for this precise issue.
>>64973583I honestly don't get the difference. What is a battle rifle? What is an assault rifle? Why not it is both?
>>64974258Battle rifles are full power cartridges like 7.62 NATO or 6.8 Furry. Assault rifles are smaller calibers like 5.56, 5.45, 7.62x39, .300 Blackout. The distinction is that assault rifles are lighter, easier to handle, and are a lot easier to control and carry a lot of ammo for. Battle rifles are meant for longer distance engagements and have more authority against both soft and hard targets, but are heavier, recoil more, and it's more difficult to carry large amounts of ammo for them.
>>64973881It is.
>>64974264Thanks anon. You could have bullied me but u gave me a nice explanation.
>>64974445You're welcome.
>>64973718NTA but wouldn't most plates be pulverized if they were magdumped with something like M80 ball? I don't think ceramics are tested against 20 round repeat hits and I can't find anything on actually trying it to see the results.
>>64973583>Do battle rifles still make sense in modern engagements?Having a few DMRs for your more accurate troops does make sense. Forcing every infantry unit to carry one honestly does not.>>64973667>7.62x51mm does suffer a little bit less from short barrels than 5.56mmNTA, but that is a lie, at 11"-13" barrels, a .308 has about the same terminal effects as a .300 BLK, lots of its power is lost. If I were the guy carrying the DMR, I would not want to go shorter than 18".
>>649738168/10
>>64974639Level IIIs are good for six hits of M80 at 2" spacing in a 6x8 fair hit zone for a 10x12 plate. If you get spacing closer than 2" they are not required to stop hits.Many IVs will fail the III test since IV is only a one hit requirement.
>>64974767>Having a few DMRs for your more accurate troops does make sense. Forcing every infantry unit to carry one honestly does not.yea this has been my thoughts on it too. i got the sense that 90% of what infantry does is try to actively or reactively suppress an area, and for that end 5.56mm seems like a much better choice because of more rounds down range. its not like the opposition is going to be like "nah bro thats only 5.56mm and im wearing level 3 plates" when they are being shot at. and then DMRs would handle the actual targeted return fire that's supposed to actually drop people with intent. maybe DMRs should instead make up like half of the troops instead of just a few though. idk. the marines seem to think that everyone should just be doing everything with M27s
As a civilian any rifle that still has good lethality past 300 meters is good. If your goal is to harrass enemy militaries either you want point blank ambushes or fire from so far away they cant pin you down immediately. Giving everyone an irons only 20"+ musket isnt as useful but giving a few guys a 16-20" gun that can make cover into concealment is fantastic in cases where a 7.62 machinegun isnt available.
>>64973583They make sense in mountains, where you have long line of sight.
>>64975540We saw during the first few months of the Ukie war that most of the kills were from DMR and snipers, but once the trenches were built, now most of the kills come from carbines and what my country calls "SBRs". This only confirms a need for diversity, not specialization.>>64975540>the marines seem to think that everyone should just be doing everything with M27sThe marines are downsizing for multiple reasons but primarily because they are poor compared to the other branches and secondly because they want to be a quick reaction force akin to the Army Rangers or British Royal Marines. The marines get what the Navy allows them to have. What the Marines do is a very complicated discussion since the government has been trying to disband the USMC since WW1 ended, but the USMC keeps proving their worth (every branch except the USMC and Navy would like the USMC gone).
