You have no stylish carry handle, you have no sleek integrated optic, you have no interlocking mags. You are sigger slop twisted by indian MIM parts and a terrible gas system into a crude mockery of H&K's perfection.
>>64978147Are they going to use the lower pressure non bi-metal case 6.8 for this? Or whats the point?
>>64978147>bubba's pissin' hot handloads™>out of a 10 in barreldios mio
>>64978147>think infantry, etcI was thinking infantry already, but now I want to know what's included in 'etc'.
>>64978154You remember how they reduced the pressure to ~70ksi to reduce recoil? Well, now they're back up to 77ksi in order to keep velocity up with this thing.
Go back to the M9 + M4 package as a stop-gap until all sigs are purged from service. Then we can move forward.
>>64978147Well yeah it isn't shaped like a fish
>>64978264>tfw you will never have a beautiful saltwater aquarium full of XM8s and F2000s
>>64978190it's just so fucking dumb man
in case nobody here has heard it, there's a joke going around where the new sig spear is proof that the army ordinance department can't actually specify anything but an m14.The joke goes like this. in 1945, the army ordinance department set about on a boondoggle to build the ultimate infantry combat rifle system, at the time 'spiw' or 'special purpose infantry weapon'. They considered and decided against the best rifles in the world, many of which would surpass all their expectations in other countries armies, and at the end, they settled upon a caliber conversion of the previous rifle system they had been issued, with a box magazine upgrade, and a failed attempt at full auto, which they quickly deactivated once it became clear that it was not only useless, but damaging to the guns.once again, we are at the tail end ofa multi decade infantry ordinance program that has considered and decided against better more proven options in favor of a caliber conversion of the previous service rifle, which is worse than useless in full auto.
>>64978381Should I be laughing?
>>64978274Its not a true salt water aquarium without keltec plastic and Chinese accessory batteries contaminating the floor.
>>64978381But think of the shareholders.
>>64978389Crying is also acceptable.
>>64978147Man, it really doesn't just look heavy. 7.3lbs for a 10" barrel weapon only. Meanwhile my ar 14,5" barrel with an eokek on top is that same 7.3lbs.
Should have it made a bullpup.
>>64978147>give us a SCAR and put two charging handles on it with a horrendous looking bronze finish
>>64978185mounted parallel for anti-air installations
>>64978147Perhaps the true XM8 were the friends we met along the way?
>>64978381>could have taken the EM-2 and made it better>could have run .270/.280 British>run 5.56 to control the small arms industry and fuck Europe>end up running back to battle rifle rounds after the Sandpit made it clear that drugged durkadurkas could shrug off 5.56 fine
>>64978147Why are nuSig firearms all so disgusting? I don't get it. It shouldn't even be possible.
>>64978190Holy fucking shit anything but a bullpup apparently
>>64978899unknown and unproven technology, maybe in the second half of the 21st century.
>>64978883The EM-2 is a meme stop with this, it was an interesting prototype that showed promise but was less developed than competitors, more expensive and needlessly complex.5.56 was the most sensible SCHV cartridge offered for NATO adoption. Regardless of "muh .280 superiority" it would have been replaced by 5.56 at some point anyway for the same reasons the Soviets replaced 7.62x39 with 5.45. It had nothing to do with fucking Europe.
>>64979023>EM-2>PrototypeIt entered service anon? Also the 4.85 would have been better than the 5.56 :^)
>>64979042It never entered service, it was given an adoption designation. They never made a single rifle in the No9 configuration so complete nonsense to say that it entered service.All EM-2s were essentially hand built one offs, none of them match each other and the final iteration of the EM-2 (with the shield wrapped around the gas tube to stop it spraying the user with hot gases) was never produced.Two guns in total ever made it to an actual warzone, one of which promptly had an out of battery on the range injuring the shooter. (This gun was later rebuilt for 6.25mm testing but that's another story).5.56mm was already in wide use with NATO nations (not just USA) before 4.85mm even existed, so was obviously the sensible route to adopt regardless of whatever 5% increase in performance you could maybe possibly potentially get out of it.
Ah yes the good old>we fix the original by making the update worseStrategy.Very nice.
Wait so we adopted a new rifle specifically to defeat body armor, and it had long barrel and retard pressure to do that, then we reduce the pressure to make the gun usable and now we can't pierce armor but that's ok because we don't actually need to do that, but the gun is still heavy as shit so we cut up the barrel but now the ballistics suck so we increase the pressure back to unusable levelsDid I get all that right?Christ, what a shitshow
>>64980443Yeah, and there's extremely heavy gaslighting that the rifle was never intended to defeat body armor. It still can if you use 6.8 XM1184, tungsten core, but it won't clear emerging Chinese plates reliably. Out of this XM8 you'll punch III+ ceramic all day using XM1186, but that's not the original Level IV target. XM1184 will get you through IV, but that's basically what 7.62 M1158 already does.
>>64980481The answer was 7.62 all along, and they just didn't want to do it even though they already had the round to do it like 10 years ago. I hate this stupid shit.
>>64980510Really decades even, since M993 will pop most Level IV if it hits at 3,050ft/s or above. M1158 is supposed to be a better performer. Use hybrid cases to pump the velocity up through higher pressure.
>>64980517There was a guy selling a few rounds of M1158 on the clearnet a few weeks ago. I have never seen a more blatant retard in my life. Godspeed, you felonious dipshit.
>>64978147They ate shit with this one. They could have increased the case diameter with a rebated head giving up some magazine capacity and came near enough 270-08 velocity in the ar-15/m4 platform. They could have just swapped uppers and magazines. But no. Some aggressive know it all nerd tried to max out a 270 magnum then some fucking legit retard designed this rifle bandaids and all. Fuck we live in the worst version of the future.
>>64980522I think we discussed that before. The underground ammo and gear trade is really interesting. M993 goes around every now and again, but they are controlling M1158 a lot better. On another note, pic rel is a set of extremely high end plates, "missing" from DEVGRU or 24th STS, that just sold for $5,000. Eye-watering for ~15 year old used plates. A lot of this stuff happens off internet, armor and armor-busting ammo alike.
>>64980522There's nothing illegal about possessing M1158.
>>64980536Possession is fine. Where it gets murky is selling it, since the chain of custody is that it was stolen and somehow ends up in your hands.Given M1158's alleged reputation as an XSAPI-killer they're probably not too keen on letting it float around in the wild.
>>64980536No recreational use. We talked about this in /brg/. It's not only illegal to own (because it is stolen property since the sole owner is the US military), but it doesn't have a legal carveout like M80A1 does.
>>64978190I see they're going with a gun designed for literally no one as their main service rifle that's theoretically going to be used by their entire organization.
>>64980585>but it doesn't have a legal carveout like M80A1 does.M80A1 doesn't have a sporting use exemption. Are you thinking of M2AP?Rules are similar to "milsurp" plates. Yes, CID can come knocking for those ESAPIs you bought on ebay. They need a warrant if you don't comply. Are they going to go through the trouble? Absolutely not. Stories of people getting rolled on by CID or NCIS evaporated in the late 00s to early 10s, not unless the plates are like >>64980535.
>>64978847Literally anything they have to do to not adopt the XCR.
this shit is so gay just fucking take the General Dynamics/Star bullpup with the chode suppressor it looks sick as fuck plus the polymer ammo.
>>64980510>7.62 all alongit's called 6.5 Creed and it's widely available and they could have made an actual DMR and keep using the M4s and let HK take the MG contract with their new light MG.
>>64978147this thing will be as short lived as the M14
>>64980585>No recreational use. Nigga we are talkin about ammo, not weed.
>>64978883>drugged durkadurkas could shrug off 5.56 fineIs this honestly a thing tho still? I thought it was due to firing m855 out of 14.5 inch m4 carbines causing only icepick wounds but m855a1 fixed that by giving reliable fragmentation/tumbling etc out of the 14.5 inch barrels of m4 carbines?Is there even one case where NATO or US troops died due to 556 not killing drugged durkas fast enough and an actual battle was lost because of 556 performance?
>>64980781>Is this honestly a thing tho still?It never was.The whole "drugged out/fanatical enemies keep shrugging off our weak-ass bullets" was always a retarded cope.They said the same thing about 5.56 in Vietnam.They said the same thing about .30-carbine in Korea and WWII (The soviets also said it about captured and lend-lease 9mm and .45acp guns in WWII, with stories about the bullets failing to pierce thick clothing.)They said the same thing about any and all handgun cartridges in WWI, and in the American-occupied Philippines following the Spanish-American war.They said it about .30-40 Army when it replaced big-bore black powder cartridges.Before that they kept saying it about anything smaller than .45-70 during various skirmishes against wild indians.It was never true. It was always a cope. Anything less than a shoulder fired canon is decried as "too weak to kill" by proud morons who refuse to admit to themselves, and/or others, that they failed to score decent hits, or completely failed to hit their enemies in the first place.
HK should have stuck with the funky and soulful Space Age concept instead of the soulless Audi-ized final design.
>>64980916Can't tell if G36 or FAMAS.
>>64980750He used the wrong term. Correct term is sporting use exemption.>>64980781Half of it is what you said. Other half is that people were straight up missing. A1 is a far better round. If you need to mix good terminal performance with better AP than A1, turn to Nammo Power Ball or Liberty T3.Problem is that true AP sucks ass at terminal ballistics.>>64980841On the money.
>>64981223>True AP sucks at terminal ballisticsLOL M61 ammunition is just fine.
>>64980615>M80A1 doesn't have a sporting use exemption. The fact you can buy it on Boomerbroker from guys with FFLs tells you it does. I am staring at thousands of rounds of this shit right now.
>>64981412>LOL M61 ammunition is just fine.>I was talking about 5.56>This dood talking about 7.62It's all relative brah. Compare terminal ballistics to M80A1 or something like TMKs and get back to me.
>>64981485Lack of enforcement doesn't mean sporting use exemption. I can go buy green cover or blue cover ESAPIs from ebay, tacswap, armslist, gunbroker, your choice. They are all government property just like the M80A1.
>>64981508I don't need to do anything but compare it to that micro-peen trash you were moaning about and be smug .
>>64981571Oh so you're one of those real fuckin' NATO guys. In which case I say... based.
>>64978147They should make the barrel even shorter, perhaps 7 inches, and make the chamber pressure higher (at least 120k psi)
>>64978190a fitting gun for this admin
>>64981513Not from FFL holders, and that's my point. You buying stolen shit from Johnny on the Street does not = guy with an FFL who doesn't want to lose it because he made an easily traced transaction. You know that, I know that, don't be disingenuous it's unlikable attribute.
>>64981603I think they've stated that over 120k is possible.
>>64981696>Not from FFL holders, and that's my point.Well actually yes, there's plenty of FFLs that sell surplus and "surplus" on the side, plates included. That is not BATFE's department.>You buying stolen shit from Johnny on the Street does not = guy with an FFL who doesn't want to lose it because he made an easily traced transactionAgain, ATF doesn't care about plates. They care about FFLs being compliant with FFL things. I don't even think they care about ammo actually, hence my point that this is a LACK OF ENFORCEMENT issue, because almost nobody is being prosecuted for selling AP "pistol" ammo whatsoever except as a tack-on charge when they've already got you on something.>You know that, I know that, don't be disingenuous it's unlikable attribute.You do realize the ATF actually says when they make a sporting use exemption, right? M855 has one, M2AP has one. I do not recall them ever making one for M855A1 or M80A1. Yet people are selling far more serious tungsten AP like M993, Swiss P, M995, freely because of a lack of enforcement.
>>64978883for fucks sake, .280 retards are the dumbest motherfuckers on the internet. it was almost as heavy as 6.5 carcano and had dogshit ballistics past 400 yards, the only advantage of the round was locer recoil
>>64978147They're gonna end up adopting the not-XM8 instead and give up on the crackpot idea of penetrating level 4 bodyarmor at 400 yrds.
>>64978190>now they're back up to 77ksi in order to keep velocity up with this thing.SIG is probably still floating the wild claim that this thing's barrel can somehow outlast 12 thousand rounds fired through it.
>>64981804Sad! Moot point anyways, China is making great strides in body armor development. Militech is comparable to many domestic US companies like Hesco and Highcom, and that's just a development from the last few years. Gilliam Technical Services' Model 8002 IV++ plate stops M993 and even harder threats cold, using chinese materials.China has patented SiC-TiB2 and even B4C-TiB2 ceramics. The XM7 will need a 16" barrel or more to reliably punch these plates with XM1184, and more PSI while we're at it. Much more.
>>64981873
>>64978147Lol they made it even crappier, again. Can't make this shit up.
>>64980965It is a FAMAS36-G model
>>64981584>>64981571>>64981508>>64981412As a fun aside, M80 has really terrible terminal performance compared to the 30 cal ball that everyone else was using in the Cold War for 7.62x51.There was a yuro study into it some time after the US 5.56 tests that demonstrated fragmentation where the US concluded that frag made SCHV (M193) at least as lethal as M80 (ie terminally performant). Some yuro officers were puzzled by the results of the study since they carry the >implication that 7.62 doesn't fragment at high velocities/close ranges. But they'd shot things with 7.62 and it totes fragmented, to great effect, so what gives? They asked Fackler about it and he basically shrugged, so they did a trial where they yeeted the 7.62mm service cartridges from most of NATO and the third world countries of Scandinavia into gel, and lo they discovered that M80 didn't fragment at all but everyone elses did out to like, 150m (I forget the specifics, take this with a grain of salt and find the study if you are interested).So anyway, yet another weird little factoid onto the pile of things that the US fucked up with 7.62 that made it make sense to get onto 5.56 practically instantly while most of NATO only did it decades later (and fucked it all up with SS109/M855).
>>64988599I dug up the study myself. Picrel is a decent summary of the results in question and it's not exactly as I remember, but the gist is about right. It's worth a look though.>Terminal ballistics of 7.62 mm NATO bullets: experiments in ordnance gelatin
>>64988630And just as a further aside, the definitions they use here for fragmentation vs extrusion are a little hazy:No definition is provided for fragmentation at all, but based on the pictures I take it to mean that the jacket of the bullet breaks and the comes into pieces such that identifying which one should rightly be called the bullet anymore is a little meaningless.They define lead extrusion as the bullet losing more than 0.5g of mass (about 5% for these bullets), but presumably not qualifying as "fragmented" in that the jacket is largely intact and there is still a clearly identifiable single bullet. They don't list the amount of mass not retained for most of the bullets and velocities.This is interesting mostly because most of the il and ilr the amount of mass being lost would probably qualify as light or partial fragmentation for the purposes of assessing terminal ballistics. Certainly even just from the diagrams, the il and ilr tests appear to produce temporary and permanent wound cavities that are nearly twice the maximum width of the intact M80 at similar or lower velocities, penetrating to only about 70-80% the depth but with similar or greater total wound volume.Basically, M80 probably kind of sucks compared to other general purpose 30 cal. I wonder if M80A1 fixed it.Final thing, probably the funniest bit: The study was being done to try and eliminate all fragmentation and minimise extrusion, because Europeans are utterly allergic to having effective militaries to such an extent that they'll purposefully misinterpret rules about bullet design to force themselves into make their bullets work worse.
>>64988599>>64988630>>64988719I presume M80's copper jacket and lead core is strong enough that it simply wont allow the bullet to deform when striking soft targets unlike the euro rounds that showed some form of deformation or fragmentation.Maybe M80 was designed to not deform/fragment for maximum penetration against all kind of targets. Muh deep penetration aganst soft hard targets like wooden doors or thick winter coats lol, the korean winter coats memes might have mind broken the US army post korea that a large number of officers thought it was true and wanted a bullet design for the 7.62 that wont get a korean war repuation so it cant be allowed to deform since we obviously need all the pentration that you can get out of a lead core 7.62x51 round, even when we know now that it is a complete lie and 30 carbine can pen a thick winter coat no problem.
>>64988836M80 was commonly steel jacketed.
>close quarters>20 round mags>insane concussion indoorsIt just seems like a bad idea.
>>64988862M80 is steel jacket? Damn I thought it had a copper jacket but guess im completely wrong. What about the other 7.62 Nato rounds? Are they also steel jackets?
>>64988893Everything up to M80 was also steel jacket. Gilding metal was a secondary option.
>>64988836It's almost entirely that the jacket is thicker. It has a 0.8mm jacket vs 0.55-0.75mm for the other first gen cartridges there. The ones redesigned to not fragment were 0.8mm but they fucked up the bases to begin with so rhey were still getting some frag and extrusion. Generally though, you're reading too much into it. M80 is from the late 1950s. Terminal ballistics was not well understood and wouldn't even start to be for a few decades. It's just not a well designed bullet for terminals.>>64988862>>64988893Usually copper jacketed, but not uncommon for it to have a steel/copper bimetal jacket. However, the tested M80 in the study above are all copper (copper/zinc alloys) jackets and they include a cross section of one. All of the tested bullets were such gilding metal jackets.
>>64988946A couple of small corrections on closer reading:The bullet that fragmented the most was actually a steel-gilding bimetal jacket (but also had the thinnest jacket), but all the others were just gilding metal.The lead alloy probably did play a bit of a role in the amount of extrusion. The three bullets with the least/least reliable extrusion all used harder lead alloys (10-14% antimony) than the ones that extruded more (1-2% antimony). This isn't discussed by the authors at all, but I interpret this as something they knew because they swapped from softer alloys to harder ones in the later production bullets they were testing, and those iterations were to try to reduce fragmentation (which was fixed by changes to the jacket design) and extrusion (which isn't commented on).Having said all of this, only the M80 and M/94 experienced no fragmentation or extrusion at all. The Raufoss bullet was still experiencing extrusion despite using the harder alloy, just at higher velocities.
>>64981702I think it's been stated without evidence that the action is proofed for 100k which fits 77-80k being the service limit.
>>64989317Of course it has. But Sig has teased the idea of service pressures over 100k, meaning a proof pressure potentially as high as 150k.
>>64978147>10" barrel with a round so hot it needs a steel cap to keep from splittingWhat the fuck. This thing must look like a dragon on the range.
The NGSW problem is Sig built an LMG. No amount of changes, tuning, materials, or catridge differences will unfuck it as a service rifle.Although the problem began with military budgeteers demanding common/shared platforns for cost reduction.Well guess what, you have a service rifle that already needs to be replaced and an LMG that cant carry enough ammo and needs to be replaced.Turns out the cheaper option is just having two different guns for two different purposes.I can spend $6,000 upgrading a $6,000 sedan to tow 4 thousand pounds and end up with a shittier sedan I no longer want to drive or I can just buy a used truck and have payload AND 10,000 pounds towing, and a regular sedan.Fucking dead society. Profit maxing stupid ass dead society.>>64989376You'll excuse me for my doubts that the rifle as-a-whole will remain functionally reliable at 100k psi.
>>64989390Imagine the amount of VA claims due to concussions. On the flip side, if you need a building cleared, just send your designated hearing impaired grunt and tell him to start blasting from the entrance
>>64989405Are you a fucking LLM? You seem to be mixing up the losing GD entry with the Sig entry that won IRL.
>>64989780Explain to me how and why the fucking spear weighs as much as a full frame ar-10 while addressing my claim of it being LMG-first, service rifle second.This shit is inexcusable.>bro r u an el el ehm?!I'M NOT WILLFULLY RETARDED LIKE YOU.TAKE TIME, USE WORDS, DESCRIBE YOUR THOUGHTS AND MEANINGS ACCURATELY.
is this what it felt like to be the m14 fags looking at 5.56you gotta feel bad for them, at least a little
>>64994000M14 fag here. Also, garandfag. Also, M60 gunner veteranfag. Speaking for only myself, .22 caliber shittery has never been on my dance card. I shot that crap for rifle quals every year because it was required. 5.56 is great for injuring civilians in the open. If that's your goal in life, congratulations.
>>64994354and there it is
>>64989376>But Sig has teased the idea of service pressures over 100k, meaning a proof pressure potentially as high as 150k.>proof pressure 150k>service pressures over 100kAt what point will the chamber preasure turn the XM7 or XM8 into a pipe bomb? Is it worth it to have a service rifle with that high chamber preasure considering soft factors like rifle service life and parts reliability + durability?
i can kill anything short of big game with anything that comes out of a barrel sufficiently fast and straight enough. arguing about ammo is for babies.
>>64978147I think what's really dumb is the fact that they made it have a fixed stock but didn't bother to elongate the receiver so it has a buffer tube. It's literally just the old stock but with the hinge removed and pinned to the rifle so it doesn't fall off. You have like 4 inches of space that is used for nothing. So silly.
They make the barrel any shorter and the thing is gonna knock itself apart whenever you try to fire it
>>64999812Sounds like you're argument in favor of a bullpup design.
>>64999889since i'm not giga retarded i can practice and commit whatever operating procedures to muscle memory that's required, so i don't really give a shit what i shoot as long as it's at least somewhat practical. if for some wild reason i'm ever required to load a bunch of things onto rail space though i'm going to demonstrate a preference for a traditional rifle layout. you're very good at dying on hills though, i commend your stubborness.
>>64999909The way you type does make you sound like a meathead, to be honest.We could just make a bullpup with long rails, though.
>>64992027>Explain to me how and why the fucking spear weighs as much as a full frame ar-10Because it's a piston AR-10 that fires a necked-down .308 loaded to 77,000 PSI.>>64999777Clearly it's not worth it since they're not doing it, but Sig seems to think it could reasonably be done. The Textron gun actually had even higher pressure than the Sig.
>>64999918that sounds like it would ruin the parts of a bullpup that are good.
>>64999955>>64999918You could also just integrate the LAM into the optic and bipod into the foregrip and then you don't even need rails. What else are you strapping to your guns?
>>64999963if they ever make a lam/optic combo that isn't shit, sure.
>>65000025XM157. Sure it's got problems now, but the US military has a great track record at polishing turds.
>>65000025>a lam/optic combo that isn't shit,Kneel to the hydra mount.
>>64978147Give it to the cops, save money on buying flashbangs.
