This probably has been asked a lot, but are bolters realistic? And if they could exist, would they be as good at penetrating armor as the tabletop game suggests?
>>65028560>but are bolters realistic? Yes they are, look up the gyrojet IRL>would they be as good at penetrating armor as the tabletop game suggestsIIRC they are only AP1 on the tabletop, but I guess self-propelled explosive .75 rounds would work well against most light/medium armors
>>65028616You could probably fit a shaped charge in one using super special 40th millennium magitech
>>65028616Yo what the fuck, this is bloody neat. Through the cost per bullet, damn, shame they're so expensive.
>>65028560i the most unrealistic part of them is the tiny magazine most have, everything else techicaly exists if not combined together, gyrojets exist, explosive armor piercing ammo exists, .75 cal is just shy of 20mm so that definitely exists
>>65028616>Cased bullet, that has a rocket motor innit, that has AP capabilities that then explodes inside the targetThere is a reason hellguns are better
>>65028701Wait, what's a hellgun? You mean IRL?
>>65028638Eventually unless someone makes a fresh batch then there won't be any rounds available to shoot. Gyrojet ammo does go bad.
>>65028707https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hot-Shot_Lasgun
>>65028709Ammunition can go bad? That sounds horrible. I heard that the first M-16s to be sent to Vietnam were half-baked with non-uncorroding barrels and all. The jungle did them dirty in weeks.It does fit the Imperium's theme of being extremely inefficient when it's about Space Marines.>>65028714Oh. So it's not the recon lasrifle I get in Darktides, it's another, even bigger one.
>>65028560Not really. The have all the disadvantages of both rocket-type (i.e. gyrojet) and a traditional gun, while at the same time there's zero reason to think they're actually any better at penetrating anything.>>but but but anon they have BOTH a rocket and gunpowder, doesn't that make them betterFour aces is better than two aces and two kings. Pick whichever propellant is better (rocket vs. gunpowder) and use 100% of that.Gyrojets did exist, but they were also a huge failure. You absolutely could build a "bolter", it just wouldn't be any better than the alternatives.
>>65028560It depends what you mean by realistic. Something that functions like a bolter could be made, but there's nothing special about the design compared to a regular firearm, certainly nothing to justify the way they're depicted in the more recent lore stuff.Very roughly, they're basically a pretty bog standard 20 guage or 12 guage (depending on model/lore) shotgun that operates normally but happens to fire a gyrojet slug. I calculated it all properly at one point based on dimensions, pictures etc in source books and lore, and they're ok, but not amazing.
>>65028731>>65028737So basically they're only good in Warhammer because of space magic, okay.Still bloody good that it exists IRL. And I'm very amused to hear that gyrojets can go bad very quickly.
>>65028731>You absolutely could build a "bolter", it just wouldn't be any better than the alternatives.It's to do a high-ish velocity 15-20mm cartridge without needing a barrel long enough to burn all the powder or action strong enough to take the all the pressure (or a shooter strong enough to take the recoil) while also having muzzle energy high enough to wound at point blank (so no pure gyrojet).I do not advocate 40k or any of its nulore as anything but fanwank, but the concept isn't as self defeating as you say. It's not great, not awful, just OK, like I said at >>65028737.
>>65028747>Still bloody good that it exists IRLIt doesn't. If you put a gyrojet to someone's head and pulled the trigger, all you would do is make them very angry. They don't develop enough velocity to kill until they've travelled a fair distance. They were also incredibly inaccurate and unreliable, in addition to the ammo spoiling like the other anon mentioned.Bolters aren't really gyrojets, they're a hybrid between a gyrojet and a normal gun, something that's never existed. They operate like a normal gun (sans rifling, so a shotgun) but the bullet they fire is a gyrojet.
>>65028780Yeah but they're COOL
>>65028801I completely agree (about gyrojets).
>>65028812I mean, I would love to do a campaign, or even a video game that's about surviving Catachan with just your lasrifle and a knife, because I love the lore behind lasrifles, that they can be charged with any kind of energy, even body heat, but bolters are just satisfying to see.
If your average SF guy was an 8 foot tall, 700 pound steroid addled cyborg, would we see something like, say, .50BMG assault rifles?
>>65028780>>hybrid rocket gun has never existedDepending on your definition of "normal gun", rocket assisted projectiles are a thing, although they are restricted to artillery sized guns IRL.A bolter is essentially what you get if you scale rocket assisted projectile technology down to the size of a tube launched grenade, and then use that to make a barely man portable low velocity autocannon with a passable effective range.
>>65028616Throughout most of 40k history boltguns were AP5 (as in ignores 5+ or worse armour saves, doesn't affect 4+ or better).
>>65028717Yeah, less like the scout lasgun and more like the helbore lasgun from that same game.Also, the scab gunners have volley lasguns.
>>65028630>You could probably fit a shaped charge in one using super special 40th millennium magitechYou could do that with todays tech, we have had HEAT munitions since the second world war, i would be willing to bet without a doubt that some Barret engineer could put a shape charge in a 20mm projectile.
>>65028893The Hellbore lasgun? The one that charges very strong shots?Are you telling me that a hellgun fires these kind of shots constantly? When do I get one?
One weapons system comes to mind immediately, but it's classified. Try again next week Ivan.
>>65028903There are probably some bombs that feature some small engine to better penetrate bunkers or whatever.
>>65028560>want big bullet to go fast>want to shoot rapid aimed shots in semi-auto>don't want the bullet going too slow out the end of barrelIt's not ridiculous for something which is supposed to be used by elite troops who have the skill to make sure their expensive ammo actually hits the target. Honestly a lasgun is more unrealistically portrayed since there is no reason for a real laser weapon to be shaped like a 30cal rifle from 1900 and act the way it does. You want a hypervelocity round so you stick a rocket on it. But don't want to slow your rate of fire, have huge recoil(Gdubs forgets this constantly because recoil is cool to them), or have a slow ass bullet coming out the barrel like gyrojet which had and open barrel which only guided the round, so you slap a small pistol sized charge on the back to get the bullet out of the gun before the rocket motor fires. It would work and is based on real principles unlike almost any other infantry weapon in 40k besides stubbers(guns) and autos(caseless ammo guns). It would be retardedly expensive, if you ever played Dark Heresy you have a choice between ammo and eating for a month. And it would very specific utility, being overkill for most targets and underpowered for most armor. Basically the Inkunzi PAW.https://vocaroo.com/147gSvgdJlgj
>>65028560They'd suck ass. Bolters are t even all that great at defeating armor in setting, people just like to exaggerate because 40k fans are fucking weird about everything being the STRONGEST EVER.
>>65028840This is actually a really though provoking point. The average man, being 5'9" 165lbs by 3rd world shithole standards. Most arms manufactures make guns that are so small they cant be comfortably handled by anyone with big hands, or long arms, so if everyone is SF was a mega meathead, weapons design would change. Guys don't even have to be 700lbs, even 300lbs average would dramatically change weapons design for clandestine usage.
>>65028923>there is no reason for a real laser weapon to be shaped like a 30cal rifle from 1900 and act the way it doesWait, what do you mean? That a laser weapon would behave more like it does in Helldivers? Like, shooting one continuous beam, instead of shooting a blast at the speed of light?
>>65028928Don't mention to one of the emperors cock polishers that humanity was 10X more advanced 25k years ago, that's heresy.
>>65028933There is a reason that zero military laser weapons IRL are pulse, and they are all continuous. Styropyro did a great demo of this and the reasoning behind it.
>>65028928>>65028937Are you okay? Did a 40k fan touch you inappropriately? Is that why you're hurt?
>>65028933Its more that it wouldn't need a long barrel on it which does nothing, the laser might be vaguely rifle/crossbow shaped so a human can hold it steady but whether it emits a pulse or continuous beam it doesn't need to look like a moistnugget the way the standard lasguns do.
>>65028940Isn't it because lasers lose heat way too quickly to be reliable? That's a shame, the laser weapons in Warhammer are honestly the best, I bet any army nowaday would pay pure gold for a weapon that is easy to maintain and basically requires no ammunition.
>>65028950Oooh, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. More like this, then?
>>65028937>make a statement of fact which is widely known and continuously repeated by every semi-literate faggot in-settingNigger are sure you understand why this setting became popular among nerds and why they hate GDubs? Besides price gouging.
>>65028957Cookie bowcasters are a mix between plasma and projectile weapons
>>65028969I mean in appearance, not in function.
>>65028937My understanding is that they use the mystification of tech to be able to justify why lasguns can look like the way they do, why efficiency and effectiveness takena backseat to symbolism and mysticism.
>>65028952Its basically because the pulse frequencies that pulse lasers operate at is so incredibly breif, that even though they reach temps comparable to the suns core, it only lasts for a fraction of a nanosecond. >>65028958Just write the mechanicus a blank check and get back to the good ol days.
>>65028996So the lasrifle are unrealistic, but that kind of cracking shot that we see kinda are?
>>65028982Yeah exactly, i wish they made more battle rifles with modern aesthetics, the OO Hcar comes to mind. Why someone hasn't made a 13lbs naked modern G3 is beyond me.
>>65028999Yeah, what would be more realistic is a continuous laser set to cycle in quarter second intervals every time the weapon is fired, however it would also 100% blind every person who even looked at the rifle or the target while it was being fired.
>>65029002Wouldn't it be a good reason for the long barrel? To hide the emitting light? Well, the landing blast would still blind people, sadly.
>>65029006Doesn't really work like that, the entire beam would still be a blinding hazard. Thats why i think Lasguns would make more sense as a superheated plasma, rather than a "laser"
>>65028760>while also having muzzle energy high enough to wound at point blankThat's really where the design falls apart. A large-caliber projectile that's full of rocket fuel is very heavy. If you want that to exit the muzzle fast enough to be a meaningful threat to something lightly armored at point-blank range you're talking about cartoon levels of recoil.
>>65029072Hence why only superhumans wearing power armor can effectively wield them freehand.
>>65029023Why so? Aren't laser pointers invisible unless they hit some dust in the way?
>>65029123At those power levels required to do the damage that is seen in game, the laser would be so powerful it would literally atomize the air molecules and any dust in its way, once again, check out Styropyro's video on the laser tattoo removal machine. He explains it better than i ever could.
>>65028905>When do I get one?That's heavy stormtrooper type equipment, they're generally fed from a backpack-mounted fuel cell thingy.
>>65028731Wouldn't the gyrojet design be pretty beneficial when fighting in space/water as the rounds would continously accelerate? They are space marines after all and the bolters were designed to fight in every enviroment possible.
>>65029143Alright, will do. I'm curious now.>>65029144Gotta become more than a ground agent to get one, then. What a shame, the Imperial Guard has all kind of fun toys, but to use them, I either play Darktides, or try to mod Arma 3.
>>65029151>in space?Not really, regular bullets would reach stupid velocities anyways>in water?Not really, proper underwater projectiles are more like long darts.
>>65028560>are bolters realistic?No.>would they be as good at penetrating armor as the tabletop game suggests?Also no. You're missing the important question OP. >Are bolters almost perfectly designed for the ridiculous levels of 'over the top' and 'so far past the line it can't remember what the line looked like anymore' that 40k is built for?Yes.
>>65029785Not what I asked. If you want to be an obnoxious know-it-all, reddit is that way.
>>65029851>asks retarded question>demands retarded answers>gets butthurt for retarded reasonsReddit's over there m8.
>>65028941He is right
Ha, here come the Discord group.You lads need a better hobby.
>>65028828>I love the lore behind lasrifles, that they can be charged with any kind of energy, even body heatLasrifles, by virtue of this lore, are less than lethal weapons. In the original lore, they were barely a step up from a flashlight, and it was only the massed fire of guardsman that was threatening. This interpretation is more accurate than the later SpaceBattles power-fantasy-escalation wank. You can calculate the energy that goes into a battery from charging it from an external power source, then divide it by the number of shots and model that power output as a laser, and doing that for a lasrifle you get a laser that would penetrate at most a few mm per shot, and would mildly sting to be shot by.
People claiming that a bolter wouldn't be effective at penetrating armor seem to not know that it's not simply a slug, but instead a miniaturized APHE warhead, with specialty ammo available that allow you to switch to something with even further AP properties with just a change of mags. If we ignore the usage of real world names and realize that it was a bunch of retarded no-gunz brits trying to come up with shit in the era before the internet, for the same reason the Land Raider is canonically armored like a WWII tank at best, and look at what they were conceptually trying convey, they'd very much be a major threat to light armor and certainly anything wearable.
>>65028560The standard bolt's APHE is very poorly designed. It can definitely be designed better, chiefly by throwing away the entire design of the standard bolt. The AP core is basically slug-shaped and has terrible sectional density, making it unoptimal for armor penetration. HEDP makes more sense for something that you want to be armor piercing and explosive. Sure, it can be claimed that the behind-armor effect won't be as large, but that's only true for a specific range of armor coverage (has to be full body coverage otherwise you can just detonate on impact) and armor strength. Against more armored targets a shaped charge will succeed in penetrating armor that the poorly-designed AP core of a bolt can't deal with. While against lightly armored targets you will have more explosive available. Not to mention a shaped charge going through someone's body has significant behind-armor effects anyway.>>65029072>while also having muzzle energy high enough to wound at point blankThe design falls apart because of that, but there's a bigger problem (that's also compounded by the excessively heavy projectile). From an engineering perspective, you're going to want to engineer the bolter so that muzzle velocity is the maximum velocity (there is no point in going any higher after all, it's already lethal), and the rocket propulsion is there to maintain that velocity. Since muzzle velocity is already lethal enough, then adding the expense of rocket propulsion just doesn't make sense. Velocity doesn't drop off quickly enough to justify a second stage. It's not like as if bolters are artillery pieces shooting something 20 miles away to the point you will get an appreciable drop in velocity. Just add slightly more muzzle velocity instead, it's not even a significant increase in recoil and you result in a much simpler and efficient bullet. Instead of adding all that extra propellant to the bullet, take that mass and use it on a buffer tube system to soften the recoil instead.
>>65030328>not simply a slug, but instead a miniaturized APHE warheadA slug would be more penetrative than 40k APHE, because it wouldn't give over volume to HE and so would have higher sectional density. The designs are otherwise like.
>>65030458>there is no point in going any higher after all, it's already lethalLethality isn't digital. Being able to kill an unprotected target at point blank but a protected target further from the muzzle is not equivalent to only being able to kill unprotected targets at all ranges.It's an engineering tradeoff. You want a 20mm gun and you want it to have enough velocity for light armor penetration (ie you don't want mum to say that we already have a 20mm gun at home but it's actually just a 12g shotgun), but you don't want the weight and length of a regular 20mm gun, you want recoil to be manageable and you still need it to have some lethality at point blank. The answer is to accept the tradeoff that you only do some of you acceleration inside the gun with powder to get it to the marginal lethality threshold and do the rest outside of the gun.It's not self defeating like you want to pretend. There's a conceivable reason for it to be a valid engineering tradeoff, assuming you can swallow the idea of needing a 15-20mm bullet in the first place (since that's what constrains the velocity, and thus AP, you can generate before meeting the recoil/gun size/weight limits).
>>65029109>Design a projectile to reduce recoil>It produces more recoil than a solid bullet wouldHmmm...
>>65030582You're speaking nonsense. You want it to be most lethal at point-blank, that's not negotiable. Both from the standpoint of real-life and in-universe. Designing a bolter to be less lethal at point-blank goes against everything it stands for, and how it's used. You can say that's how a bolter is, and I would agree, but all you'll be doing is admitting it's a terribly designed weapon.
>>65028717>Ammunition can go bad?Yep.>That sounds horrible.It is.>I heard that the first M-16s to be sent to Vietnam were half-baked with non-uncorroding barrels and all. The jungle did them dirty in weeks.Not exactly. The .223 Remington (5.56x45 in .mil service) and the AR-15 (M16 in .mil service) were designed around each other and the "advisors" in Vietnam and the ARVN troops they were working with loved them. When the AR-15 began being issued generally, issues started popping up for two main reasons. The first reason, and the less important, is that there wasn't proper training on how to clean the guns or proper issuing of cleaning supplies. The second, and much more important reason, is that the powder in the ammunition was changed. You see, smokeless powder is manufactured in one of two different ways. You have extruded powders, which are produced by basically putting the wet powder through a press to get small sticks, and ball powder which is manufactured by basically putting a bunch of chemicals into a vat and stirring them until they form tiny little droplets. The time to manufacture a batch of extruded powder is two weeks while the time to manufacture a batch of ball powder is less than two days, plus ball powders are more stable in storage, safer to manufacture and are generally just better hands-down than extruded powders for large-scale manufacture. The .223 Remington was designed around an extruded propellant, but the volume of ammunition that the government needed was so huge that extruded powders were just too slow to manufacture; there was some testing and some bureaucratic and business fuckery and eventually procured .223 ended up being loaded with a ball powder that worked fine in larger-caliber rifles but caused issues in the M16.tl;dr the M16 was fine but government and business shenanigans led to the ammo getting messed upHere, have some autism.https://web.archive.org/web/20230204110350/https://looserounds.com/556timeline/
>>65028560>would they be as good at penetrating armor as the tabletop game suggests?I thought bolters sucked at penetrating armor on the tabletop
>>65030605You're the one speaking nonsense lol, because you're treating nu-lore descriptions of "what bolters stand for, and how they're used" as something worth acknowledging the existence of rather than as toilet paper with words written on it for people with the maturity and mental capacity of small boys.
>>65030605>>65030649Like, Jesus Fucking Christ can you even imagine writing the words:>Designing a bolter to...>... goes against everything it stands for, and how it's used.unironically?Everything it stands for? Are you going to start tearing up and sing a national anthem? Recite the imperial creed? How it's used? Are you going to start regailing me with tales from whatever fanfic-tier Black Library drivel was last released that describes Space Marines as nothing short of homoerotic military-themed superheroes as evidence of the proper doctrinal function of a bolter?God, talking to anyone associated with 40k without them immediately self parodying in the cringiest way is fucking impossible.
>>65030649Yeah I'll take one for the team and bite. What on Earth are you talking about?
>>65030154Why is there a discord circlejerk/raid group for literally everything? It's everything that makes r*ddit gay turned up to a million.
>>65030675In the grimdark future of 2026, Games Workshop has written so much low quality pulp genre fiction mythologising and increasing the perceived power of pretend Space Soldiers that people on the internet will tell you that the weapon they carry "stands for something" and then tell you that the engineering tradeoffs of that weapon go against that.Now, specifically, in OG lore, bolters weren't particularly special or effective. They were just big, dumb, unweildy, semi-gyrojet guns. But at that point Space Marines didn't do flips or put pic rails on stuff either, and Space Marines also weren't particularly special or super effective - they were the best humanity could muster, but that was nothing particularly special.
>>65030154>>65030698The real question is, can these people do a better fucking job so that I don't have to put in the work to bully these nerds myself?
>>65030704Yeah, got it, you're just mad because you put forward the incredibly stupid argument that being weaker at short range is a good thing and then got put down for it.
>>65030605>You want it to be most lethal at point-blank, that's not negotiable. Both from the standpoint of real-life and in-universeIn universe, point-blank is handled by chainswords, combat knives, power swords, and other melee weapons wielded by the genetic mutants wearing portable APCs, as well as non-point blank but closer range being the job of dedicated specialist weapons with meltaguns and flamers.>but that's stupidYea, well, 40k operates largely on rule of cool but is also mostly internally consistent with it's own stupid caveats if you accept that melee weapons are viable.
>>65028560It’d be a great way to sling lots of little grenades very fast at the enemy, but it’d be bad in real life due to the size and weight of the ammunition. A normal human isn’t carrying more than three magazines for it at a time, and humanoid robotics are superior to power armor until Skynet actually happens.
>>65030813>In universe, point-blank is handled by ...and pistols. They've even returned the rule that allows you to shoot pistols in close combat in recent editions.Also point blank doesn't mean actual melee, just close-range. You're on /k/, shouldn't you know this? Not to mention for most of the setting's history, a tactical marine wouldn't even have a chainsword available and would have to make do with a combat knife. The most dangerous enemies are going to be close up too. After all, if you want to shoot something far away, just get the Imperial Guard to fire artillery at it. A space marine's typical experience also covers close-range fighting far more often than long range fighting. They're elite troops meant for assaulting space ships, urban areas, and bunkers where their qualitative superiority abilities matter, not for trading long range fire in open space (although they can do that too of course). It makes much more sense for a bolter to be designed to be more powerful close-up.>but that's stupidWell I'm glad you agree. Stop getting mad and making excuses just because someone called the bolter stupid. It's literally what OP was asking for.
>>65031033>Also point blank doesn't mean actual melee, just close-range. You're on /k/, shouldn't you know this?>After all, if you want to shoot something far away, just get the Imperial Guard to fire artillery at itAlso, for at least back when I was playing the game, marines in melee and bolters had equivalent strength, and melee weapons outside of powerfists, and derivatives like chainfists, didn't change the strength but simply provided more attacks or armor penetration. The point of the bolter is to allow the marines to expand their lethal range by allowing them to reach out and touch people, while anything that's close enough that the relatively slow acceleration of the gyrojet round would be an issue still has to contend with the explosive payload of the bolt shell itself, as well as the murder machine perfectly capable of punching through steel walls. Marines have already won, against most foes, if they're getting to CQC where their numeric disadvantage is less of an issue and they can leverage their individual strength, quite literally in this case, while bolters provide them with an option for dealing with threats that either outclass marines in melee or are too difficult to pin down long enough to close the distance.
>>65031062Okay, but are you aware that point blank doesn't mean actual melee, just close-range? Because despite having quoted it your entire reply seems to lack a complete awareness of that simple fact. Also there's big difference between being able to stab something and shoot something from 25 yards away. And more importantly, Marines are far more likely to be shooting at close range than long range.Also, what point are you trying to make here? You talk all this shit but why?
>>65031080And you're aware that there distances between point blank and artillery, if you even have it on station when you're doing a drop pod insert deep behind enemy lines to snipe a HVT, which is Marine's primary MO, right? Marines are capable of sprinting at 50ish MPH, so 25 yards is more then close enough for them to close the distance for melee if they chose. Meanwhile, you're hung up on bolters making a small sacrifice in lethality at that range, where you somehow need a target who's tough enough that the HE charge in the shell isn't enough firepower but a couple extra hundred FPS is, in exchange for much greater lethality at the ranges where Marines are likely to be using their firearms by providing a flatter shooting projectile as well as general range extension.You're the one who's coming into the thread, acting as though everyone else is retarded for not bowing their heads and accepting your divine wisdom as gospel, and then throwing a shitfit when people call you retarded for saying retarded things. If you don't want to engage within the constraints and premise of the universe, you're welcome to close the thread. This is 4chan, no one will be able to know you've been in here being a raging dumbass the next time you post.
>>65030734>the incredibly stupid argument that being weaker at short range is a good thingAre you willfully retarded? The argument was that being weaker at short range is a necessary engineering tradeoff to build something that fires 20mm from what is essentially a subcarbine 12" barrel in the form factor of a blown up machine pistol with an action that can cycle and still be able to penetrate armor at any range. The only solution that satisfies all the silly constraints on the design is to sacrifice as much muzzle velocity as needed to get in under the barrel length and action weight constraints, and then to meet the armor penetration constraints with acceleration outside the barrel. Your valid solution space is then everything under that muzzle velocity and you have the option to make something that penetrates less armored targets at point blank (a hybrid gyrojet/gun with mv high enough to penetrate unprotected targets at point blank) or something that can't penetrate anything at all point blank (pure gyrojet).Your """solution""", optimising for maximum propulsive efficiency over longest distance with base bleed or RAP for a low and constant velocity projectile, does not meet the constraints since it can't penetrate any protected target, and is, in practice, actually just a useless concept for a gun.Your other """solution""", which is just an unpowered bullet to maximise MV, also doesn't meet the constraints, because either you've literally just made a low pressure 12g shotgun that can't penetrate (if you stay inside the barrel and action constraints) or you've made some kind of manually operated wristbreaker with an interrupted screw that flashbangs the whole world with unburned powder every shot and still gets shitful MV.
>>65031110I see, you're claiming the bolter is meant to just not work at close range. Yeah, you're retarded. But I'll just carry on arguing instead of just calling you retarded and moving on. I'm just curious to see how you respond.- Bolters are used by more than just space marines. Bolt pistols especially are used by a lot of unaugmented humans.- Do you think the change in 3rd edition where close combat weapons gives an extra attack makes sense if a bolt pistol doesn't work at close range?- They retconned bolters to have the so-called "kicker-charge" specifically to make bolters work at close range. Now I'm not going to pretend that original bolters, as described, would had worked at close range. But that wasn't clearly wasn't the intention even if it was funny.-Space marines are consistently shown in every single media, from core rulebooks and codexes, to books and computer games, to be firing their bolters at close range, even melee range, and having them fully working and penetrating armor.-Earlier you repeatedly admitted bolters are stupid and now you've shifted goalposts and gone from "okay bolters being bad at short range is stupid but it's 40K" to "bolters aren't stupid, it makes perfect sense to be bad at short range"
>>65031179>you're claiming the bolter is meant to just not work at close range>you somehow need a target who's tough enough that the HE charge in the shell isn't enough firepower but a couple extra hundred FPS isC'mon, anon. I already told you that you can slink away and no one will know that you have brain damage until the next time you post something this retarded.
>>65031182No argument to these reasonable points? I accept your concession.
>>65031186>no, you have to engage all of my points while I refuse to engage yours>why aren't you treating me like I'm arguing in good faith!
>>65030612Why make extruded powder then if ball is so much better?
>>65030255No. Even in the og 1987 lore they are described as being able to sever a limb with a shot.
>>65031266You will have no difficulty referencing this.
>>65031199the ball propellant burnt dirtier and had a higher and later peak pressure, which dumped a lot more energy into the cycling of the action and caused it to run faster and more violently, which produced failures to feed, case head separations, bolt breakage, hammer follow, etc.burn rate is a function of surface area. only surface can burn, and as propellant burns away, its surface area available to burn changes accordingly. not sure how much the geometry of the propellant mattered vs its composition in this case, just remembered i had this picture and thought it was neat.
>>65031578Lasguns are explicitly described as causing small explosions at the point of impact, as the pulse of light superheats the material and causes it to suddenly ablate away, violently vaporizing. 3rd edition core rulebook, page 61. And a common sense reading of the rules would tell you that a lasgun must be about as dangerous as an assault rifle or battle rifle, since both lasguns and autoguns are strength 3 weapons.
>>65030612This contradicts a book I read that claimed that the AR-15 WAS shit, and it would corrode quickly, but the army refused to admit malfunctions and blamed soldiers instead for not taking proper care of their weapons.>that captcha I NEVER VISITED /int/ HOW WOULD I KNOW
>>65031658But Anon, he said that this was "spacebattle" wankery, so clearly he's right and you're wrong.
>>65031676And now the fool will learn that 40kbabs are the community most willing to argue the most inane points brought up in a throwaway text from 1990 for hours on end. Or at least in the top 5.
>>65028940>StyropyroThat boy ain't right.
>>65028969>Cookie
>>65028941Space Marine powerwanking tourists who own one (1) badly painted mini from visiting their local hobby store painting classes once and then never touching the actual hobby ever again are the bane of the 40k communityt. 40k fan
>>65031700So... literally everyone on /tg/? 40k fans are hardly different from World of Darkness or DnD fans.
>>65031659The captcha is the new april fools thing, it doesn't even work.
>>65031658Page 61 of that rulebook, which uses only the words "small explosion" is entirely consistent with vaporising 1-2mm of the struck surface in a tiny area, dealing only superficial damage, which is what the actual maths of the amount of energy in a powerpack based on how it can be charged supports.
>>65031793you should probably kill yourself dude
>>65031658>>65031801He's right though. I'm not him BTW. No really I'm not. Interpreting a "small explosion" to mean "severing limbs" is pretty wild. I will agree though, a lasgun is only meant to be about as dangerous as an assault rifle or battle rifle. The blowing away limbs thing is usually used by fanwank to mean that the lasgun is at least as powerful as 50 cal.
>>65031199>Why make extruded powder then if ball is so much better?Just because ball is more efficient to manufacture doesn't mean it's "better"; extruded powders have characteristics that ball powders don't and vice versa.>>65031659>This contradicts a book I read that claimed that the AR-15 WAS shit,If you were a SOF doing SOF things in 1962 with hand-picked batches of ammo and you knew how to take care of your weapon, the AR-15 was the best infantry rifle on the planet by a comfortable margin. If you were a stoned grunt in 1966 going on patrol with ammo that literally broke your rifle when you used it and you heard somewhere that your rifle is "self-cleaning" so you don't clean your rifle as often as you should then you're honestly better off looting an AK and using that.>and it would corrode quickly,Corrosion wasn't the problem, it was broken parts and fouling.>but the army refused to admit malfunctions and blamed soldiers instead for not taking proper care of their weapons.Yeah, they did that.
>>65031801I accept your concession. I wouldn't to detain you from your Horus Heresy bolter-wank a moment longer.
>>65031811he says only superficial damage, you say he's right, superficial like an assault rilfe. i say he should kill himself for doing real world physics with the fluff of a tabletop game and you should kill yourself for not knowing what agreement means. i will allow you the dignity of choosing which gigachad i should be portrayed as.
>>65028560They are posible to make and yes they would be probably good at penetrating armor Being a 75caliber but the cons are they are werry expensive to make plus who would use them when other weapons are good enough for the curent Job any way so why bother
What about chainswords?
>>65032145They'd instantly stop and get clogged.
>>65031722He really isn't. Had some video a while ago that he had to stop making videos because he was going to the doctor too much. He thought he had testosterone deficiency because he's 33 and still looks 18, but it turns out his test levels are literally off the scale, which, combined with his looking 18, means something is going fucky wucky in his endocrine system. Idk if he's done a medical update since.
>>65034030>he's 33Holy crackers really
