Why didnt eastern swords have handguards?They used swords for far longer than europe because they didnt learn about guns yet so how come their sword tech is still so shit? I hear that they are all horse archers but surely they have to dismount and fight after running out of arrows.
Did they not understand that their hands can get chopped off in duels?
>>65038361>Why didnt eastern swords have handguards?They did.>>65038363>Did they not understand that their hands can get chopped off in duels?That sword design is from 2000 years ago. European swords in that time period didn't have complex handguards either.
>>65038412>That sword design is from 2000 years ago. European swords in that time period didn't have complex handguards either.Yeah but when I look at qing dynasty swords, its the same design. 0 improvements.
I don't know shit about Asian swords, but you don't need a handguard with a shield or buckler since you use it to protect your hands.
>>65038361Handguards aren't some end all be all featureThey restrict grips you can use and maneuverability
>>65038464Hooking your finger over the crossguard gives you more control, which is why hilts eventually evolved protection above the crossguard like in the OP.
>>65038450Later Qing dynasty swords had d-guards just like Euro sabers did.Even earlier ones with just disc guards provide decent amounts of hand protection. Disc guards could get larger than you'd expect from modern replicas and provide comparable amounts of protection as European swords with side rings do.
>>65038477For thrusting only, you lose stability when cutting
>>65038549Finger rings are common on longswords.
>>65038607I knowI was literally just stating the fact that when you hook your finger over the crossguard you gain thrust control but lose cutting stabilityThere are pros and cons to different grips and knowing which to use in a given context is important hence why I don't care for complex handguards
>>65038607>>65038632To add: not saying a finger ring is the same as acomplex handguard, but I wouldn't have one either since it makes transitioning between grips cumbersome
>>65038361Search turkic sabre on google
>>65038361>shamshir >kilij >tulwar >katanaKys
>>65038758Those arent substantial guards. Im talking about the complex hilts we see in Europe. Baskets and all. Reasonable to conclude that Europe handguard designs diffused eastward so those near eastern peoples got crossguards on their swords while those in the far east had super small disc guards.
>>65038361It was likely due to different technique and usage of these swords. Elaborate guards are more of a dueling thing, they are not so useful in general war swords and especially when you are using a shield for blocking. Which was mandatory considering abundance of archers in the East. Little use for them in cavalry swords if you ask me as well - but they do make the sword heavier and thus slower.
>>65039113Europeans carried swords into battles as well and there were archers everywhere.
>>65039113>>65038970>Reasonable to conclude that Europe handguard designs diffused eastwardThe odd thing is that the shell guard seems to appear on Al-Andalus designs first.There also exist some finds of Han chinese training swords that did feature D-guards and shell guards, but that seems to have been a dead end.
>>65039213bollock dagger
>>65038361>hur dur horses>hur dur gunzYou think musketeers walked everywhere, faggot? Chinks suck at everything but theft and numbers.
>>65038361the purpose of a handguard isnt to block attacks. its to prevent your hand from slipping off the handle onto your own blade.tiny guards like on the jian or a katanas disk are perfectly adequate for that. same for european swords like gladuis and viking swords.now you will probably point out a longsword with crossguard or a baskethilt then say well these were designed to block. no shit.but those were more tuned for a 1 on 1 duel with swords.you arent parrying a spear stab with a baskethilt. you can deflect with the blade but you can do that with swords lacking the extra hand protection.
>>65039182The swords Europeans carried into battle were typically less complex than the ones they carried around town for dueling.
The pajeets loved strange guards. The blade is missing on picrel.
>>65039367Many military Katanas had much larger disks. It's just bias of later carry choosing small size for convenience and reproduction copying that.
>>65039732
>>6503973995% of anything to do with Katanas was all about the fashion of the period. When samurai started wearing swords with smaller guards it was because that was en vogue at the time. Fittings and scabbards were constantly being swapped out to match the fashion trends of the day--whatever color or artistic style was in at the time.
>>65038361they did>>65038412>>65038361Japanese swords were fitted with large disks for battle (tsuba)In most caees after the 1600s most 'oriental arms' are made with either European steel or blades, in places like North Africa etc etc and expandinng as empires did, most Indian sword plades were being imported before even the British completed the conquest of India. Neither do European swords (the small sword WAS the most lethal and longest used model for foot) guards became minimised to facilitate carry. They conntinue primarily on swords that were also or may also be used on horse (even infantry officers spend most of their him on horseback). That is due to the slashing nature of combat from a horse after the charge or to prevent the horses bridle being seized. The majority of modern pundits on swoards generally are short lived and have no idea how predominat the horse was or why certain swords were preferred like what is now called a spadroon but back then was a cut sword or sheer sword. One of it's primary functions was to stop a crook or mutinous soldier taking hold of the bridle of the horse you were on. You have exceptions like heacy cavalry were their swords were subsitute lances that might cut but in general ignore anything said about swords that does not also discuss horses.
>>65039810>Japanese swords were fitted with large disks for battle (tsuba)lot of good examples here.https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/49489-large-tsuba-for-pre-edo-period/
In general swords that wre personal carry for self defense tend to evolve to make the hilt less of an inconvenience worldwide, whereas swords for military use have fairly reasonable guards, the japanese swapped them in and out. The rapier was a pain to carry, got covered in shit and was more used to slap beggars and whores away with the flat that it was used in combat. It was quite short lived. The small sword was king for 300 years but it was no use if you were traveling and on a horse. Highway robbery was a real problem for a long time, Typically at low light dawn or duck via .a group of men between 3 and 6 at a turn with trees growing over the road to darken it, two with pikes behind or and two in fronnt and then one would seize the bridle. Once they got the bridle you were done. You still had a hope of getting away up to then. It's hard to deliver a goot thrust froma hehrvous horse over your left side in the twilight or diusk, it is a lot easier to half sever a fore arm with a swipe and you will probably be ducking a pike thrust. That went away when robbers could afford flintlocks in a large calibre that could just kill the horse with a single shot to it's chest .Another reason people stopped carryig swords for travel. THis is how most people got from a to b or back home after a social evening while a little drunk. It's hard for you all to unnderstand what life was like back then. There wree no police and a lot of desperate people. Places like Paris. London, Dublin and Amsterdam, Hamberg and Colognee were visions of hell swarming with impoverished drunks and destitute women and children, all sea ports were dangerous
>>65039732weird condom
>>65038970Probably because cavalry was the primary users of swords in the east. The katana doesn't even become the primary weapon of the samurai until then of the sengoku period when they became required to carry them on a daily basis.
>>65039768I'm imagining the court gossip:>Hey, did you see Hideyoshi over there?>Lol, yeah, Chrysanthemums on his saya in winter? What is he thinking?>If you think that's bad, last week Katsuhiro was wearing those lame deer Menuki with the fucked up antlers again>I thought we told him to throw that shit out? Nobody wears deer anymore, plus they have a Korean look to them if you know what I mean
>>65038361https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59-9PlB-F1Y
>>65039374I mean, thats only bescause by the time complex hilted swords started popping up, gun tech was also making strides, but Even in the 17th century, well into the musket and ball era they were plenty of people who carried full on basket hilt broadswords into battle.
>>65038361were nips and chinamen regularly fighting other sword users with their swords? I thought they used way more polearms than swords due to japan having basically no iron deposits due to the way the island of japan formed
>>65038755>esl spelling of sabergood morning, saar!
>>65041372I know people say that the Japs had very little iron, yet at the same time the nagamaki was a very common battlefield weapon in Japan and that took twice as much steel to make compared to a Katana. Also, naginata were larger than swords as both of these weapons were commonly shortened to make swords. I don't think the choice of polearms over swords had much of anything to do with iron availability.
>>65038758>>shamshir>not scimitargood morning, saar!
>>65039182the complex handguards on the yuro swords didn't start happening until the yuros transitioned from using shields to using more armor and 2 handed polearms or they were common for personal defense swords that were used without a shield in daily life
>>65039768most of George Washington's swords, with the exception of some that were gifted to him, were super fashionable at the time. Like he had one that has a simitar like blade and handguard with green ivory
>>65041372The Japanese have enough iron for a pre-industrial society, they also freely imported billets from China. It's just that the Kanto plains, where the war horses were raised, had nothing but iron sand, so the technology of turning that into billets was of some importance when the factions there tried to supply themselves with arms.
>>65039864those places are still filled with violent thugs
>>65041388>Brits are ESL>Nonbritish ESL are automatically indianHow stupid and american can you be?
>>65041529all nonAmericans are ESLs, thirdie
>>65040147like that all over the world. european courts revolved around fashion. it's the human condition really. part of growing up is learning that men gossip like women. enlightening.
>>65041641The difference is that while Euros (etc.) swapped swords according to fashion, the Nips customized their existing ones by changing out all the various fittings and accessories constantly.It's the difference between>I've had this side-sword for a few years now, it's not so special anymore, better get a rapier like the cool kids have>It's fall now, I guess it's time to swap out the carp-themed fittings for the ginkgo leaf ones.
>>65038361>They used swords for far longer than europe because they didnt learn about gunsSome of them had guns before Europe and used them quite extensively, yet still held on to swords anyway. Turkey and Iran for instance>have to dismount and fight after running out of arrowsNah, now you're just light cavalry. Turkey and Iran just kept on using the kilij/shamshir. What's interesting is Afghanistan and India have basically the same exact sword, but with a different hilt that (generally) had a knuckle guard.
>>65038970>Those arent substantial guardsfuck off m8
>>65039732Oh right, THOSE weird fucking swords. You'd really just strap it on like a gauntlet, horizontal grip and all (so, almost like a katar dagger, but long and armored).I guess it must have worked out at least ok? It became a style and a number of them were made, given that it armors your hand and arm, I'm assuming that it's expected to be used for parrying swords a lot.
>>65039732>>65042013jeets have retarded ass bendy swords. they just do retarded shit that has nothing to do with how good those weapons are in combat. there's a reason why portugal is the only nation to ever lose a war to jeets
>>65041733Even in Europe it wasn't uncommon for older swords to be remounted in new hilts.
>>65041967jeets got their tech from Europe through Arab spice trade. When people talk about the east, they dont mean south asia. they mean the actual east like china vietnam thailand japan
>>65039741Those names literally mean "frankish katti", so they were Euro-style swords.
>>65038363Does anyone have the jian copypasta?
>>65039864>That went away when robbers could afford flintlocks in a large calibre that could just kill the horse with a single shot to it's chest Depending on region, some robbers would still try to do it the old-fashioned way, with sharpened bits of steel on pointy sticks. In some places, being a criminal wasn't an automatic death sentence (replaced with deportation to the colonies), but using a firearm in felonies would always mean summary execution if caught.
>>65042070Unlike flashy fairground toys like the urumi, pata were considered "serious" warfighting weapons when wielded by a decently-trained soldier.
>>65042916I posted the previous image of one, but to me it feels less like a battlefield weapon, and more like some kind of duel weapon.
>>65042916>>65042953they're indians. the only time indians ever won a war was against the portugese. their weapons weren't great
>>65041641Fun aside, there was a brief intersection in sword cultures during the Dutch/Portuguese period of trade with Japan. What this largely amounts to (inasmuch as what has survived and been cataloged), are smallswords in the Northern European (as in north of the Alps) form, with decoration emblematic of Japanese sword design. Usually called Sawasa swords, they're really cool and I've only ever seen the blackening/bluing and lacquer like this done on some giga rare Napoleonic era French turbo high ranking presentation swords. Usually Euro blades with Japanese made hilt fittings, look at the huge physical difference of the relief details on the pommel and inside of the guard. >More photos here: https://friedlandarms.com/an-early-sawasa-hilted-small-sword-with-scabbard-circa-1690-1700/
