FCAS:France's Dassault says 'weeks' left to save Europe warplane projecthttps://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20260401-france-s-dassault-says-weeks-left-to-save-europe-warplane-projectGCAP:Money starts flowing for new GCAP fighter, as Britain sorts out financeshttps://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2026/04/02/money-starts-flowing-for-new-gcap-fighter-as-britain-sorts-out-finances/Canada Eyes UK-Japan-Italy GCAP Sixth-Gen Fighter Program Amid F-35 Reviewhttps://www.eurasiantimes.com/move-over-f-35-canada-eyes-uk-japan-italy-gcap-sixth-gen-fighter-program-amid-f-35-reviewLooks like FCAS has weeks left to make a decision and GCAP is resuming progress with a growing number of nations displaying interest.
>>65040543>France's Dassault says 'weeks' left to save Europe warplane projectDassault saying the partn... retarded and disgusting paypig to get bent surely seems to be working out as planned.
FCAS has been dead for months, it's just politics that's keeping it alive at this point, none of the actual industry partners are even trying at this point.
>>65040543I want 6th gen fighters to launch AA missiles out of the poop chute and have them maneuver like in the expanse with thrusters.
>>65040575They could salvage it into a tech sharing agreement, with both nations using common parts.
>>65040634Dassault doesn't want to share IP with Airbus, a potential regional competitor.Common parts only work if Dassault is willing to share the IP on how to build their shit, which they won't do.It's why they wanted 80% of the workshare on the manned fighter, so dassault didn't have to share any of their good IP with airbus.
>>65040644It's not uncommon for joint projects to have black box areas, not is it wrong to desire, there talk of them in GCAP.Also the 80% figure wasn't them wanting to do 80%, it was them saying they could do 80% of the FCAS.
>>65040543If either Italy or the UK manage to make France a GCAP customer I will forever worship them as Gods. I will eat ad drink tea and pasta every day.
>>65040693That'll never happen, at most I could see france buy a GCAP CCA, but not GCAP itself.Things would need to go tits up in a big way for france to ever consider GCAP over their own Rafale upgrades or a cleansheet 5/6th gen design like FCAS. Even if it's turboretarded expensive and they only build less than 100 of them.They need nuclear missile integration which I dont think the GCAP partners would do for france, and it needs carrier launch/landing capability, which also isn't something GCAP will offer anytime soon if ever.
>>65040706Italy is planning to build a nuclear catobar carrier. France could try to get them to switch to FCAS with the promise of tech transfer in the carrier
>>65040714Italy is far too steeped in GCAP to back out now.Further, the CATOBAR carrier plan is currently planning to field it sometime in the mid 2040s, a full 5-10 years after GCAP will be in hitting the skies.Far more likely Italy instead focuses on advanced carrier-capable UCAVs to operate alongside their existing F-35Bs instead of trying to navalize GCAP, or buying FCAS. Then maybe if they REALLY want to double down on the carrier idea they might see if lockheed is still making F-35Cs in the 2040s for them to buy. As it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than trying to navalize GCAP by themselves (as neither the UK nor Japan have much interest in a catapult-launched GCAP).
>>65040736>as neither the UK nor Japan have much interest in a catapult-launched GCAP).I wouldn't be surprised if that changes. When the F-35Bs are out of date they will have to find a new plane to be carrier capable, and no one is looking at any future STOVL fighters. So it's give up the capabilities or go CATOBAR.
>>65040818F-35Bs will be in service until the late 2070s or early 2080s under lockheeds current long term plans.The F-35Bs of the 2050s/60s wont be the F-35Bs of the 2020s.
>>65040824The F-35s will not be used for 70 years, that's a ridiculous claim. Also modification to a STOVL airframe will not be revolutionary due to its design limits.
>>65040844It'll still be good enough for the 2070s and 80s, especially when paired with more modern CCA/UCAVs.
I don't understand why India is screwing it's own Tejas and potential AMCA project to gift $40B to Dassault for 114 Rafales when>France is heavily in debt because of gibsmedats>Dassault is completely unwilling to do any tech transfer>Rafale frankly being outdated by the time the deal is done and planes deliveredThere was some.murmours of France having India as a backup option for FCAS but i don't see that happening
>>65040890>It'll still be good enough for the 2070s and 80sIt won't be, there are significant issues with it currently, including maintance cost and range. It is a halfway measure. Also about CCAs and UCAVs, the future fighters of the world demanding high electrical energy. Part of that is for the command of the uncrewed assets. If their assumption about the need of greater electrical energy is true then these unmanned crafts will be gimped if controlled by an F-35B.>>65040907>I don't understand why India is screwing it's own TejaBecause they are incompetent and can not build a good fighter. They even struggle with the simple stuff.
>>65040943I see it as more down to corruption than incompetance. For what it is supposed to be it's quite advanced it's just their ecosystem is terrible at mass manufacture. And then there's the issue of engines...
>>65040714>planning toThose plans will vanish into thin air when mil planners realise that the range of GCAP means they'd be able to patrol the entire med and all of North Africa without refuelers easily, that kind of money would be better spent on a new fleet of littoral ships
>>65040693The French are far too arrogant to do that, which is why they always hissy fit out of joint programs.>>65040907Corruption + Indians can't make anything good domestically ever.
>>65040943Fuck off pidor
>>65041501>Any criticism on a western system makes you Russian Stop being an utter faggot.
>>65040714>>65040736>>65040818Aircraft carriers Garibaldi (just sold to Indonesia) and Cavour are being turned into drone carriers, integrating the new Leonardo-Baykar Bayraktar TB3, just like the Anadolu carrier from TÜRKYİE.A new hypotetical larger carrier would probably use larger more advanced Leonardo-Baykar drones, just to keep the Piaggio Aero production lines busy.
>>65041809I think it's far more likely Italy does their CATOBAR studies and come back saying "nah we don't need it now that GCAP can fly 1500+ miles without refueling". Then they can focus on regular UCAVs instead of navalized ones.
>>65041827No one cares whether a nuclear carrier would actually make military sense, its main purpose would be to keep Fincantieri busy and allocate European defense funding to the developement of the Newcleo compact nuclear reactors for the future civil nuclear power plants.
>>65041853Fincantieri doesn't really care what they're building, and Italy has plenty of smarter surface ships they can buy first. More FREMMs, Thaon di Revel class, or the new DDX destroyers.Sure a nuclear carrier would be a big deal for Fincantieri, but it's hardly the ONLY work they could be doing. Also the EDF money for big "prestige" programs like that generally requires at least 2 or 3 participants; this would be an italian carrier, and france already has their OWN nuclear carrier so they sure as fuck aren't going to greenlight EDF funds for italy to get a subsidized nuclear carrier.
>>65040736It’s unlikely GCAP fits in a weight class to be navalized. Everything we’ve heard suggests that a very large plane is getting built, with the very long range figures to be achieved with a very large wing carrying a very large quantity of fuel, with large weapons bays leveraging the large airframe. That just won’t work when current western arresting gear maxes out at about fifty five thousand pounds.
>>65040943There are compromises with the A and C that stem entirely from design choices necessary for the B. The Harrier is coming up on 60 years in service. It would not be at all strange for the F-35B to surpass that, as it’s not all that likely anyone is going to want to foot the significant bill that would come with developing another supersonic VLO STOVL fighter. The US Marines, British, Spanish, and Italian navies are the only customers for that sort of aircraft, and the biggest thing they have in common is that none of them can afford that sort of development program. JSF was already a massive handout to those services by the US Congress, largely at the expense of the US Air Force.
>>65041959I mean, I largely agree, which is why I don't think it would ever happen even if Italy DID build a CATOBAR carrier.And yeah, i'm pretty sure GCAP's empty weight is approaching 50-60k lbs, let alone once you add in reserve fuel and unexpended munitions.
>>65041380They are rightfully arrogant. They are the only europeans that are almost fully soverein as far as defense industry go. They paid the price for this over the years, why should they share with fags who let their industry crumble as they bought american planes?
>>65042722Because you can't say we all need to get together and join hands in European defense without giving up ANY IP/technology to your partners.France wants to pretend they're pro-European defense, but what they really are is pro-French defense, and they would happily watch the rest of the European defense sector burn if it meant France could sell to whoever was left. If france wants to swallow their pride and accept 40 billion euros from german to build a new fighter jet, then france needs to be willing to give germany something back in recompense, especially when you're asking germany to fund a jet that does a ton of VERY expensive shit that germany has no need for (CATOBAR capability + nuclear missile capability). Then you ALSO expect to stiff germany on the workshare portion of the jet you want them to fund half of on top of it all.It's insulting, and frankly absurd that france expects anyone to take them seriously when they've done the exact same shit in the past to other european defense programs.
>>65040844The radar for a block 4 F-35 won't even fit on a block 3 airframe. There will be lots of compatibility breaking changes along the way, but the F-35 will be the naval aircraft of choice for the foreseeable future.
>>65042737>be German>have nothing to add to a fighter program but money>withhold the money>get offended when dassault asks why they're being forced to work with the krauts who can't contribute anything at all
>>65042737strawman and projection, I could write a whole 2k character post about defense procurement to prove you wrong but I don't care to reply to some retarded faggot in a serious and constructive way so I will just shit on Germany instead because you're probably from there either as a native or as some migrant from a shithole. Even if you are not, the germs deserve it anyway.if anyone want to see anything in europe burn it's germany, always the most servile faggot to any outsider. Always buying american jets over european jets, flashback to that f-104 scandal where their biggest ace kept protesting against that shit plane. Always fucking up their neighbors economically, like trying to fuck over nuclear power including in France because it's somehow not eco-friendly enough then proceed to buy russian gas and finance another pipeline thanks to all those ex-stasis connections. Always being the image of a pussified EU who bend over at all time and just reply with "prayers and thoughts". Ursula got into some scandals as minister of defense yet the germs still shove her into an EU leadership position. The germs had a budget comparable to the French for their defense yet what did they had with that? I can tell you what they didn't have over the french, a native jet fighter, a native nuclear carrier, native nuclear submarines, a fully native nuclear weapon program, a fully native balistic missile program. Oh and the French are by far the most important contributor of the ESA thanks to their technological advance. What is german technology? Closing down nuclear plants and re-starting coal plants because it's the eco-friendly thing to do; truly they do science differently in germany.Spain is also in that program yet you don't hear shit from them. Looking at both country's leadership, I would trust spain to not do a 360 and walk out only to buy more american shit unlike the other country. Ain't no way I'd give out my technological edge away to someone as unreliablefag
>>65042970I can basically guarantee if Germany leaves FCAS, Spain will follow.
>>65042970>HOW DARE YOU BUY AMERICAN!?!?!?!? THAT'S A BETRALY OF EUROPE!yet when france needs a CATOBAR AWACS, they bought american.When france needs an electromagnetic catapult for their new aircraft carrier what do they do? Yep, they buy american.France needs a new drone? You guessed it. American. France operates 12 MQ-9 Block 5 ER drones. Then when Germany needed a new jet to keep up their nuclear sharing agreement with the US, Germany was forced to buy the F-35 as no other jet in the world was cleared to carry the B61 nuclear bomb. Did france offer to sell Rafale with french nuclear weapons to germany as an alternative? Nope. But when germany bought the F-35, which again, was the only plane in the world capable of fulfilling that mission, France acted like germany betrayed all of europe. Yet anytime france needs something they can't get from anyone else, they're happy to buy american.It's just fucking pathetic.
>>65042997France bought the tech and research material for the EM catapult not the catapults themselves.>sell french nuclear weapons to germanyAre you genuinely retarded? Nuclear sharing isn't the same as selling and selling is prohibited by the non-proliferation treaty. The b61 is a gravity dumb bomb, any plane can carry it with modifications.Once again missing the main difference in mentality. France buy american as a last resort, while it's the German's default mode. This is explained by their lack of native industry which they lost over the years by buying and not spending time and money on it. The French played the long game and spent more to gain more in the long term. It's inconceivable that they would forsake all that to some untrustworthy partner. In the realm of aerospace defense, technology is EVERYTHING otherwise Saudi Arabia could make their own F-22 and B-21 if money was all that mattered. Germany bring fuck all to the table. France would gain more from taking 5-10years longer to build it while keeping their technological secrets and edge than give out the fruits of their labor like a whore running after a wealthy client.You previously talked about France needing to give something in exchange for that deal, but you got it backward. If France could find someone to foot the bill instead of Germany, what difference would it make? None. If France can get some guaranteed buyer without any faggy german interference about the sale and usage of the plane, they would once again gain more and still get their money's worth.tl;dr German is not a serious country when it come to making war jets, they are nobodies and trying to buy your way to the top doesn't make you a big dog in the game
>>65043048>France bought the tech and research material for the EM catapult not the catapults themselvesNo, they're officially buying 3 US made catapults, confirmed in the budget just a few weeks ago, and they have "possibilities" for french alternatives, but the current budget is paying for 3 US made catapults. And while yes the B-61 is a "dumb" bomb that "any" plane "can" carry, the only new plane currently CERTIFIED to carry the B-61 is the F-35A. And the US isn't going to certify the Rafale to carry the B-61, so it's not like germany can buy the Rafale and just expect the US to magically certify the B-61 for deployment on it. The US are the one that has to do the certification, it's not something france can do, or germany can do, it's something only the US can do.Also I never meant france should SELL nukes to france, but do nuke sharing like the US does while selling the JETS to germany. Even the nuke sharing stuff france JUST started talking about is talking about deploying french jets with french nukes and french pilots under french authority in other countries, it's not ACTUALLY nuclear sharing like the US does it (where the planes are yours and the pilots are yours, you're just getting the bomb from the US). TLDR; you're totally uninformed, or are misrepresenting the situation to make france look better, in either case you're wrong.
>>65043077>france should SELL nukes to francefrance to germany, not france to france.
>>65041809>Garibaldi (just sold to Indonesia) and Cavour are being turned into drone carriers, integrating the new Leonardo-Baykar Bayraktar TB3,First of all, only the Garibaldi is being converted to drone carrier, and Indonesia will not use TB3 drones. Second, the Cavour will start hosting some TB3s, but its main role will still be as an F35/Heli carrier. Second, it's TURKEY. Stop pushing that retarded name.
>>65042722I meant arrogant in that they think they know better than everyone else even when they are doing obviously stupid things.They think everyone is so stupid that we can't see the only thing they're interested in is themselves and their own defence which is why they tried to sell weapons (Mistral) to Russia for years and do still sell weapons to India, which instantly compromises any kind of security around operating parameters (look at the Scorpene leaks for example).>>65043077>TLDR; you're totally uninformed, or are misrepresenting the situation to make france look better, in either case you're wrong.This. Highly suspect he's French, you can always tell by the "we're the best we never do anything wrong and you're stupid for pointing out that we did exactly that" attitude. You can see it when they talk about "untrustworthy partners" whilst not even 10 years ago France was selling tech specs for Mistral + Scorpene to India and Russia lmao. Same way YJ-8 missiles came about because China didn't pay the high price France wanted for exocets (ergo France was willing to sell fucking communist China exocets). Same way the Harbin Z-9 is a copy of a Eurocopter Dauphin because the French in their infinite intelligence thought it was a good idea to give TDPs to the Chinese to build up their helicopter industry. But yeah, the Germans are untrustworthy partners lmao.
>>65043048>France would gain more from taking 5-10years longer to build it while keeping their technological secrets and edge than give out the fruits of their labor like a whore running after a wealthy client.Lmao, I should have included this amazing line in my last post. >>65043631
>>65043543https://theaviationist.com/2025/02/17/baykar-indonesia-drone-factory-deal/
>>65042997>yet when france needs a CATOBAR AWACS, they bought american.>When france needs an electromagnetic catapult for their new aircraft carrier what do they do? Yep, they buy american.>France needs a new drone? You guessed it. American. France operates 12 MQ-9 Block 5 ER drones.>>65043631>not even 10 years ago France was selling tech specs for Mistral + Scorpene to India and Russia lmao. Same way YJ-8 missiles came about because China didn't pay the high price France wanted for exocets (ergo France was willing to sell fucking communist China exocets). Same way the Harbin Z-9 is a copy of a Eurocopter Dauphin because the French in their infinite intelligence thought it was a good idea to give TDPs to the Chinese to build up their helicopter industry.Yup, France is demonstrably the worst European "ally" and you can directly show how France has propped up Russian and Chinese military technology for coming up on 50+ years, all while pretending they're the only ones who actually care about European defense.
>>65040693>drink pasta
>>65043989Nevermind I'm retarded and read only half the sentence. Carry on.
>>65043989>>65043991Duality of man.
>>65043952Adding to this, I didn't even mention that Type 054 frigates are powered by French engines and that HQ-7 SAMs are based on French SOLD data/tech specs for Crotale. Also Chinese Type 730 CIWS is ostensibly derived from French sold equipment. In a funny turn of events some ships in the PLAN are basically entirely French armed/powered.In fact even as late as 2018 Thales (which is part owned by the French Government) was supplying Russians with helmets for their jets among other various assorted electronic components for aircraft. Going further back it was France who supplied Saddam with jets and exocets, exocets which eventually hit the USS Stark. Not even finally, the Chinese PL-7 air-air missile is a copy of a French R.550, I wonder how that happened?I could go on but I think the point has been demonstrated. The French defence industry (and Government) basically sold to any despot who had enough money because they are extremely corrupt (Thales to this day still has multiple major ongoing corruption scandals), all of this required export permits from the French Government. When French people come here and bang their chest about how they're the best it's because they're either outright lying/scheming (French trait) or they are completely ignorant. Like you say, France basically propped up particularly the Chinese MIC in terms of R&D for decades.
>>65043997Honestly when the FCAS meditation dies in a week or two, Der spiegel or similar should publish deep dive reports into these exact French deals.Don't even mention FCAS, just write a dozen articles all directly pointing out french perfidy.
>>65042970>no native nuclear submarinesNuclear armed, yes. Nuclear powered, not even close to a necessity, with modern AIP advancements.Small u212a could already made 3000 nautical miles from Portugal to Florida without any snorkeling. I doubt the larger 212cd would be any less, with the improvement in fuel cell efficiency, and hopefully a reformer. TKMS has been teasing with a submarine reformer for nearly two decades.Tell me, will nuclear propulsion make a difference if chinks decide to flex their muscle and take French territory in the Far East ? Cause I’m pretty sure french cannot sustain a prolonged war that far away(desu, no one can, aside from the amerisharts)
>>65044031France sure as fuck isn't steaming to polynesia at 20 knots sustained with an AIP system lol.With AIP all your energy is precious limited currency every single joule spent reduces time on station. Any time spent in a less efficient running regime e.g. moving at speed to get ahead of a target, means you will have to start for home port sooner. Nuclear's ability to steam faster in safe areas lets you range further before crew fatigue sets in, having no energy constraints lets them flank to position and bag prize targets even at the very end of a deployment. Ultimately it all comes together to nuclear just being the obvious option for nations which want to do blue water offensive operations with significant time spent away from port.
>>65044056>blue water offensive with significant time spent away from portGood, now we can agree on that. Except French SSNs is also among the smallest, and you sure as hell ain’t generating crew supply out of the reactor, and small SSNs also mean less space to effectively carry out all the noise dampening measures. So you are left with something that’s inferior in acoustic stealth to both AIP or advanced SSN like Seawolf, while being just a bit better in endurance than AIP. Or French crew can somehow, magically conserve their supply during transit to their assigned patrol zone?France is poor, henceforth anything they do is just a piss poor attempt at mimicking superpowers, except they haven’t been one since the 1800s. The same goes for nearly every French system, maybe aside from actual nook themselves
>>65044082Buddy, i'm not French and i'm not here to defend their subs. I think their decision to use LEU is dumb as fuck - but i'm also not going to pull shit out of my ass like you and say they're definitely louder than AIP because I don't know that they are and neither do you. Some reactor designs are extremely quiet. and again, you're ignorning time. A nuke can go a lot further in three months than an AIP and in a wartime emergency where you're out there a lot longer than expected you don't have to get anxious about your fuel and water, only your food.
>>65044100>they're definitely louder than AIP because I don't know that they are and neither do you. Some reactor designs are extremely quiet.Having a reading comprehension again? I didn’t even mention all nuclear sub, just the small design ones, much like what French are using. There’s a reason the usn forfeit on small SSNs, and even Russian, duo their limited budget, has never embraced the idea of small SSNs, aside from a few experimental hulls.Rubis, and even the modern Suffren are definitely among the smallest SSNs out there. Stop equating French half assed solution with any proper built deep sea boats
>>65043834The Cavour is still not being converted as a drone carrier, its main role is still deploying F-35s and helis, like the new Trieste. They're just giving it drone capabilities.
>>65043997>The French defence industry (and Government) basically sold to any despotAmerifats propped up pakis (F-16s, Patton tanks) and turned a blind eye to their nuke thefts just to spite India. If the French do it what's the difference?In fact US had a melty when India bombed hangars housing paki F-16s and Nur Khan which houses US nukes
>>65044137The convertion has started and manned short range fighters have no future
>>65044206Sure thing roach.
>>65044181The difference is the US doesn't pretend they're morally superior while doing these things.They know they're being capitalists just looking for the best sale.But even the US tries to avoid handing over technology directly to china when it can be avoided, unlike France who see it as a sales opportunity. Then france wants to stand on the world stage and proclaim to europe they're the morally superior option over buying US arms and that the only way ensure European sovereignty is buying french defense goods, all while ignoring they're the primary reason china is anywhere close to the west in several key defense areas.
>>65044217>the US doesn't pretend they're morally superiorLmao good one. They're just as bad if not worse. Can't cry about French selling to whoever inc chinks unfortumately when US sold their wares to fucking terrorist pakis of all peopleThe French are arrogant cunts, and they can afford to be because they were smart enough to keep an independent MIC. Although for how much longer who knowsTheir independence from the amerifats is precisely the reason countries such as India choose (have no other choice but to) to buy from them even at extraordinary exorbitant pricesIndia agreed for US to supply 180+ F404 GE engines for their Tejas. US has delivered 5 in 2 years effectively choking the project.
>>65044262So what american programs were directly handed to china over the last 30 years?We've already detailed around half a dozen from france.YJ-8HQ-7R.550Type 730 CIWSSEMT Pielstick diesel enginesHarbin Z-9And again, france sold exocets to saddam who then killed 30+ americans with them.Your argument doesn't really hold much water in my eyes.
>>65044280>>65044262>Don't buy american weapons that's anti-european!>when france does it though it's fine>Don't sell weapons to evil countries!>when france does it though it's fine>stop supplying weapons to terrorists!>when france does it though it's fineDo you see the trend here?
>>65044280>>65044294Why would USA need to? France is a much smaller MIC of course they are need to hard sell more. US recently upgraded pakis F-16s and despite them you know, housing Osama Bin Laden...The quanity may differ but the level of perfidy is still no different. The point is they and Russia have proven more reliable suppliers than the US.
>>65044311>The point is they and Russia have proven more reliable suppliers than the US.Ahhh, so you're just a pooskinned retard.Please continue.
>>65044311So your "reliable supplier" (France) is currently refusing to give you the source code for the $40 billion jet you're about to buy (Rafale F5), and your other "reliable supplier" (Russia) is so busy in Ukraine they can't even send you tank parts on time. It sounds like India isn't choosing France; India is being taken for a ride because they're too mad at GE to look at the math.France is the perfect match for you, you'll be very happy together.
