That pattern doesn't look like someone who is defeated or someone who is making a comeback, it looks like someone desperately stalling for time by trying to make limited resources last as long as possible.

As long as America achieves their war objective before time runs out, Iran will lose. I can't remember what America's objective is though.

>>65043226
>I can't remember what America's objective is though.
Basically "keep Iran from doing this ten years down the line with an extra million drones". They're in the downward spiral, there was no appreciable chance that the IRGC was going to lay down and die without doing some sort of retarded chimpout, might as well get it over with (and be sure to crater their military industry so that you ARE only doing it once). If somebody removes the government now, great, we can get the humanitarian aid rolling and start getting them back on their feet. If not, then they'll be out the door soon enough anyway. Now the sticking point is just convincing them that no, they do NOT get to be the arbiter of who goes through the Hormuz. That seems to be where the Gulf states are going to get involved, it looks like they're going to be the ones running convoy security, because it beats letting their own economies implode.

>>65043238
The two biggest miscalculations seem to be that the Iranian people would be willing to rise up and overthrow their oppressors and that the other nations would step up/in to assist.
I don't agree with how everything has been handled, but even I'll admit I'm a little surprised at those two as well.

>>65043285
Last word on the matter was to stay safe and wait until the bombs start dropping. I'm not particularly surprised that nobody wants to go and do it with ordinance still coming down on Tehran. I don't know the Iranian people well enough to assess if the odds of them doing it right then get better or worse over time, but I highly doubt that the IRGC is going to prioritize getting the water situation stabilized when they have an entire military industrial base to rebuild, and that's going to bite them in the long term.
For other countries, there's been a lot of mixed messaging on that, because Donald Trump is Donald Trump. On the whole, Iran really fucked up by directly antagonizing everyone in the region that tried to stay neutral instead of leaving them to gripe at the US. With the notion that Iran is going to be sensible off the table, the GSS talk about jumping in has been getting more organized over time, so they should be along before too long. The UN resolution stalled out because Russia and China did exactly what you'd expect, but the desire is definitely there in platonic form, they just need to hammer out the details.

>>65043285
The first was easy to call. The Iranian people WERE willing to rise up and overthrow their oppressors, but American power was busy in South America at the time so the regime just put down the protests and killed all of them. If America had been in the right place at the right time supporting/defending the protestors they might have had a good chance to go in and clear out the enriched uranium too. Might have been too busy with protestors to close the strait too.

>>65043285
They overwhelmingly support their government anon its not Syria. Otherwise you wouldn't have to try and sanction them to death / destroy their infrastructure to force them into desperation

>>65043226
The timeframe on readying drones is an interesting question. Iran probably has a lot of "pile of flight controllers in PCB form - unassembled, no wires", "tubing", "pile of plastic skin moldings" and "motor - still in box" type stuff (more than drones even before the war). Each of those is going to have to be made up and tested, transferred to a unit, run up then mission planned, then transported. That is going to take weeks if not months. What you're seeing at the moment I think is still ready-action drones and missiles, fully serviceable - it hasn't been long enough. Because of this I think they've got a lot more stay. tl;dr not even started into the knockdown kits let alone Chinese import pallets.

>>65043219
Iran can't really win through conventional means, so it's trying to raise the costs of prosecuting the war on the entire planet. That involves essentially terror bombing Israel and striking economic infrastructure.

Don't get me wrong Iran has also caused some real damage to U.S. equipment, but nothing that has meaningfully impeded operations. Don't expect this to change.

Funnily enough, the real contest of wills that determines whether this war ends isn't between Trump and the IRGC, but rather Trump and the rest of the world. Iran is betting Trump will cave before the rest of the world dogpiles on Iran to re-open Hormuz

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>>65043326
>They overwhelmingly support their government
Which is why they riot several times a year, and every decade or so the government culls them by the tens of thousands.
>inb4 da jooooooooooos

>>65043326
>They overwhelmingly support their government
Do you just not comprehend how maximizing a lie makes it less believable than a smaller one? Like on dating profiles, do you claim to be a 9-foot tall trillionaire?

>>65043337
>Funnily enough, the real contest of wills that determines whether this war ends isn't between Trump and the IRGC, but rather Trump and the rest of the world. Iran is betting Trump will cave before the rest of the world dogpiles on Iran to re-open Hormuz
It's funny in a sad way that I can't decide if this was the best or worst idea they could have come up with.
>t. 3-time Trump voter

>>65043337
The funny part about that calculus is that even if the US fucked off tomorrow, there's no reason to believe Iran would stop doing the funni since they're gonna need to try and exort the globe for money and aid to try and stay in power, which is part of the reason that this had to happen at some point as the previous anon pointed out. I feel like what really sealed Iran's fate was arming the Houthis to fuck with global shipping, proving that they were irrational enough of an actor that they couldn't be allowed to continue to threaten the Straight, much less doing it from the relative safety of being a nuclear nation.

>>65043352
Yes Trump's erratic style makes it nearly impossible to evaluate anything he does.

I think it's fair to say he flew by the seat of his pants on this one. However at bottom I think the calculus is correct, Iran was never going to be weaker, and there is a once in a generation opportunity to reshape middle eastern security dynamics in America's favor. On the flip side, functionally no coalition building was done nor any stockpiling to negate the effects of an oil shock, so things feel very slap dick.

>>65043350
It's obviously difficult to measure who supports what in non democratic countries but as far as I know there have been no instances of Iranian (para)military units rebelling, going rogue or attempting coups which is more than can be said for a lot of other nations.

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>>65043337
>the rest of the world dogpiles on Iran to re-open Hormuz
As a European I don't understand why our governments are so passive here. We buy oil from the middle east, we need the strait open. Why aren't we protecting shipping?

>>65043365
Did you miss the recent string of anti government protests in Iran that resulted in a long internet blackout and the literal gunning down of thousands of civilians by said government?

>>65043357
Iran's response to the war definitely vindicated the notion the regime simply couldn't be allowed to contine to husband power. We can quibble with the execution, and Trump's uncanny ability to pass off nearly every longstanding ally, but anyone who thinks the Iranian regime wasnt in need of a brutal skull fucking is a room temp IQ retard who hopelessly partisan.

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>>65043368
Not really

>>65043365
They literally had riots in the street a couple of months ago to the point there was deathsquads going through the hospitals to execute the dissidents who'd survived. They have two parallel military systems, the normal Army/Navy and the IRGC who also are an Army/Navy because half their job is to prevent the other from coup'ing the government.

>>65043368
It would cost money and expose soldiers to risk, which are both bad publicity, and even worse because orange man bad even when he's right once in a while. The US broke the status quo, so clearly it's the US's job to fix it. Please pay no attention to how the Euros cucked out on the Houthis and the US had to try to fix that one as well despite the much higher percentage of shipping that went to/from Europe compared to the US.

>>65043368
Oil tankers are big, slow, fragile and very expensive. The owners and insurers aren't going to accept WWII convoy protection numbers where 1 in 20 ships don't make it.

>>65043357
>previous anon
present
>I feel like what really sealed Iran's fate was arming the Houthis
I tend to push it all the way back to October 7, in part because of how it emphasizes the difference between true de-escalation and the stalling tactics that people try to pass off as Iran not being belligerent. Iran COULD have disavowed Hamas on the spot, handed Israel everything they had on them, and sent aid to help with the shitshow that Gaza was about to turn into, but they were NEVER going to do that, because that would have involved burning the entire Axis of Resistance when they turn around and go "what the fuck, this is literally what you brought us all together to do". Those are the very painful kinds of things you have to do to truly make peace, and Iran has never stepped back on that level, so they chose to ride it out to the bitter end.

>>65043368
I genuinely don't think the Euro's can cobble together a battle group in less than a couple months.

Genuinely what do you have to send the ME without pulling assets off necessary patrols? Most Euro navies and airforces are built around the absolute bear minimum without any global power projection.

>>65043368
every euro spent on blowing up muslims is a euro that is not spent on paying said muslims to move to your country and rape everyone.
An unacceptable tradeoff by EU standards.

>>65043379
correct, the Iranian government is so fragile that a couple thousand protesting durkas was merely hours away from toppling it completely while the most advanced superpower on earth using every weapon at its disposal for an entire month has been stopped dead in its tracks by said same regime

>>65043368
It should be Asia if anyone.

>>65043357
>proving that they were irrational enough of an actor
it proves that they are willing to take action against third parties when Israel misbehaves.
>>65043379
while we should have done more with the houthis. they only started shooting at shipping after the Israelis started to misbehave in gaza.
as such the houtis, iranaians and most European countries agree about the base issue, israel abusing it's carte blanche.
that being said we should be punishing them for hurting us economically.
but in order to prevent further fuckery pressuring Israel to knock it of might be the cheaper and easier path.

>>65043379
>>65043371
The protesters getting gunned down easily and survivors being mopped up by death squads is what high government support looks like. Low support results in Euromaiden where almost no one dares to pull a trigger, or the Russian or Syrian civil wars where every political tendency abruptly has a combined arms division.

>>65043357
They already came out and said the strait is closed indefinitely. You gave them casus belli for it why should they stop.

>>65043388
I can see that argument, but I would say that Oct 7th, while not a great day for Iran, wasn't a definitive tipping point on demonstrating that Iran needed to go, in part because every intelligence report suggested that they were just as surprised as the jews and the rest of the world. No one really expected them to disavow Hamas, for the political reasons you've identified, but it wasn't until they decided to double down and explicitly continue to make themselves an issue through their proxies that it went from Iran is a future problem to Iran is too much of a problem to be worth not dealing with it.

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>>65043403
>they only started shooting at shipping after the Israelis started to misbehave in gaza.

>>65043404
It was foreign mercenaries doing the gunning down, anon

>>65043408
The real issue is Israel went nuclear after Oct 7. Bulldozing Hamas and paging Hezbollah. Then Syria fell, and Jolani killed or bribes all the Shia proxies loyal to Iran. Iran essentially lost its major insurance policy against Israeli escalation. Hence Israel finally striking Iran. Now Iran is essentially pulling its final nuclear option to close the Strait.

>>65043410
yea sure, hamas started it
but that doesn't take away from the fact that shit didn't start until Israel started to flatten gaza.
something most European governments also apposed
just like the current closure of the straight started with Israel blowing a good chunk of Iran's leadership
it's the MA you can go back to Cain and Able if you want to find out whom struck first.
the point I'm making is that they aren't irrational, they aren't unpredictable and their motive isn't fundamentally opposed to the EU's

>>65043403
Any self-respecting country would have turned gaza into a smoldering crater after what Hamas did.

I understand its very fashionable to hate the jews, but Oct 7 on a population basis was the equivalent of ten 9/11s. If a bunch of Canadians swept across the border and killed 50k Americans and took a bunch of hostages back to Ottawa, I wouldn't support anything short of gassing them.

>>65043426
>Europe is willing to destroy its alliances, economy, and dignity to show some solidarity with random Muslims
That tracks.

>>65043408
>>65043388
I know you are being disingenuous tards that are purposefully ignoring that Iran was willing to negotiate with us and we were the ones that backed out of said nuclear deal (that they agreed to) as well as Israel instigating half of this but thats ok, the approval ratings speak for themselves

>>65043429
>OY VEY OCT 7TH WAS LITERALLY 10 9/11 HOLOCAUSTS AT ONCE
actually kys

>>65043408
Fair assessment. I look at it as more of a single intermittent war, so I might blur things together more than others, but I agree that the defining feature of the Iranian approach has been their willingness to spill their spaghetti all over everyone else's plates and hope that it makes everyone angry at somebody other than them.
>>65043423
Also this. They did not properly asses the can of worms that was getting opened, and it's driven them to increasingly high-collateral options to try and stay in the game as everything's fallen apart around them.
>>65043410
>>65043426
Play nice, you two. This is the one fucking good war thread up right now, I'd rather not see it go to fuck.

>>65043433
Iran's negotiating position was minor concessions on nukes in exchange for.m money to pay proxies and build its missiles and drones. Its a retarded deal that only a dummy like you would consider.

>>65043423
Yea, but they had the option of doing what the Saudis did after 9/11 and toning the supporing terrorism down to acceptable levels of only fucking with other shitholes, which no one in the first world really cares about despite protests otherwise. Turkey as well, for that matter, gets up to a lot of stuff the US and the EU wishes they wouldn't, but it's low level enough stuff that it's tolerated. Contrast that with Iran deciding it was going arm the Houthis to grind global shipping to a halt for months, and you can see the difference.

>>65043426
The point, my brown little friend, is that there are acceptable and unacceptable levels of fucking with the people you don't like on an international stage, and touching random boats isn't on the list of the former, and doing it through a proxy is the geopolitical equivalent of playing "I'm not touching you" in the backseat with your sibling. Smuggle weapons to Hamas, give them to Hezb to shoot at the jews, and other things that were the status quo would have annoyed the rest of the world but not made your continued existence a threat to global stability, if you can't just shut the fuck up and get rich like the rest of the Arab world. The US doesn't want to have to play peacekeeper for international shipping while they need to keep CSG ready to go fuck the chinks, and it's one thing if it's a hypothetical problem, another if Iran has already shown they're willing to do it for the lulz.

>>65043432
>Europe is willing to destroy its alliances, economy, and dignity to show some solidarity with random Muslims
>reality
pick one and only one
Europe isn't getting involved militarily because it's easier and cheaper to work things out diplomatically for them
they didn't start this party, weren't invited to it and it's not that much of a problem for them.
besides Trump told them to focus on russia so why should they get involved in the ME again?

>>65043444
The way I remember it the Houthis didn't do shit to global shipping until months after it was obvious the Israelis had won and were extending the engagement to kill more arab children.

>>65043341
People in Bahrain also riot and they're actually ruled by an unpopular minority which was justification enough for you to fund an arm a civil war in places like Syria so why arent you pushing for regime change there? Oh right

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>>65043452
There are much faster and cheaper ways of doing that.

>>65043452
Tell Hamas that they should surrender and stop dragging it out then. The jews continue to flatten Gaza because Hamas hasn't gotten the message and continues to cut their own wrists to have blood to throw at the Israelis. If they actually wanted to commit a genocide, they could just stop providing food aid and let the brown retards starve, which is a lot cheaper then bombs by virtue of actually costing nothing instead of requiring money to be spent keeping them alive.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/2/8/hamas-leader-rejects-disarmament-while-israeli-occupation-of-gaza-continues

>>65043444
The problem is Iran is not a rational regime. Its actually a Shia death cult whose constitution lists the head of state as the occluded 12th imam. The regime's goal is to reveal him and bring about the end of the world.

The Gulf monarchies have the benefit of being greedy assholes rather than ideologues. Iran reinvest its profits into terror. Tehran doesn't have water; meanwhile the regime has built sprawling underground missile cities. There is zero chance of doing business with these people. Real peace to the ME can only come if Iran changes its trajectory.

>>65043452
Well then you're a moron because the houthis were htting shipping within a month of Oct 7.

>>65043444
>is that there are acceptable and unacceptable levels of fucking with the people you don't like on an international stage
if it's so unacceptable why didn't the rest of the world including China ect. obliterate them?
you make a claim that simply isn't backed by how the world reacted
>The US doesn't want to have to play peacekeeper for international shipping
if it doesn't give Israel a carte blanch to do what ever it wants to do it won't have to keep getting involved in the ME.
Israel as a state is secure oct. 7 was humiliating and painful. But it doesn't challenge it's existence as a state or nation.
>already shown they're willing to do it for the lulz
none of it's for the lulz, if it was they'd have done it at some other time for no good reason

>>65043467
>The regime's goal is to reveal him and bring about the end of the world
so they are christian zionists

>>65043368
where from Europe you're supposed to be? everyone hates Trump and don't want to help him and especially don't want to get involved in another ME adventure.

>>65043374
>get bombed to shit out of nowhere for 2nd time in one year and this time leadership assassinated in the middle of talks
>still fight back however they can
>see we told you they were fucking crazy!
What do you gain for being an unpaid

>>65043477
Lol is the word shhill auto deleted.

>>65043477
>Iran a good boy, he dindu nuffin he was just tryna to negotiate n' sheet, we need sanctions relief for dem programs

Just ignore it, please. I'd like to have one thread stay worthwhile.

>>65043435
I'l do my best to keep it as polite as possible
I'm simply pointing out that form most European capitals POV getting involved would cost them more than it benefits them and that they have a history of successfully engaging in diplomacy with Iran.
hence fence sitting and not rewarding Israel by getting dragged in is the better option of them.
if at some point they do have to act that's still and option but until then they can keep talking.
that Iran is willing to let European flagged ships use it's territorial waters route shows that it is willing to talk with them as well

>>65043467
As opposed to the evangelical death cult of Hegseth and co.

>>65043468
>if it's so unacceptable why didn't the rest of the world including China ect. obliterate them?
Did you miss the EU and the chinks sending ships to the area to escort shipping before they realized it was expensive and left it to the US because they're the global police, like it or not, you dumb fuck?

>Israel as a state is secure oct. 7 was humiliating and painful. But it doesn't challenge it's existence as a state or nation.
Iran as a state was secure. Oct 7th's ramifications on their proxy terror network were humiliating and painful, but it doesn't challenge it's existence as a stat or nation, right up until they doubled down and made themselves a problem which was disproportional to what they were supposedly using as a causi belli.

Hamas getting Gaza bombed because they're retarded is not carte blanche for Israel to do whatever they want, because they'd like to shove them into the fucking Med and not have to deal with them anymore, especially since the Gazans have managed to cause enough problems that literally every surrounding nation will refuse them as refugees, including fellow Arab nations like Egypt and Jordan where they've both tried to start a revolution. I genuinely have no idea what's going to happen to Gaza after Hamas either surrenders or runs out of 70IQ teenagers to get themselves killed, because Israel clearly is not going to tolerate Gaza being allowed to ever do an Oct 7th again, but no one is going to take them for reasons stated previously, and quite frankly, I don't really fucking care because they've brought this misery on themselves by being perennially retarded.

It seems like the two positons on this war boil down to

>Iran' regime is a regional cancer that was long overdue for destruction or defanging and now was the last best chance to do so

>Trump's needless belligerence has pushed the region and the world into chaos with no plan or exit strategy

>>65043498
Christians > Muslims

>>65043501
Those aren't two positions. Trump is a bungling retard and this could have been handled much better, but Iran needed to die and this was a wonderful time to do it because the jews had neutered Iranian proxies as well as actual Iranian military capabilities earlier this year, and it had to happen before they became a nation with a credible nuclear deterrent to enable their bad behavior.

>>65043501
War is awesome when you're winning. It sucks when you're not. Unprecedented levels of cope get generated from both sides depending on who's winning or losing. If the US achieves its goals, whatever those are, history will become
>Iran' regime is a regional cancer that was long overdue for destruction or defanging and now was the last best chance to do so
and if it fails, it will become
>Trump's needless belligerence has pushed the region and the world into chaos with no plan or exit strategy

>>65043508
Excellent point.

>>65043491
Negotiations from a position of clear and demonstrrable weakness..bold strategy, lets see how that plays out. And pissing off other players in the gulf sure adds to the flavor considering Iran is barely the 2nd largest exporter of oil in the gulf, 3 times as small as SA and barely above the likes of the UAE..which already pulled out funding for the Rafale F5 developmen.,

>>65043505
>this could have been handled much better
Could it? In my the costs of coalition building have always been the death of decisive action. They definitely would have sent Khameini into hiding.

>>65043499
>EU and the chinks sending ships
but annon it's unacceptable
they wouldn't just accept it because it's expensive?
it's almost like people don't like it but don's see it as worth enough to go get involved in a war over it
just like today

>gazans are retarded
true, I also agree that hitting them after oct. 7 is bad in and of it's self. but it crossed a tipping point where it wasn't proportional at all and that's when Israel lost most European capitals.
they saw Israel going to far (for them) because the US the only one that could tell them to knock it off not doing so. this then caused their shipping to get hit.
so they are paying the price for something they also don't like but can't do anything about because that's the US's guy in the ME.
for them returning to a status quo ante bellum is just as good as any of the other outcomes and a white peace is usually the easiest to get

>>65043475
This. I don't understand why americans think we should lift even a single finger to help them in this 100% unneccesary conflict they started.

>>65043491
I have the strangest feeling that we've had this conversation before, but it's a big board (lol).
As an interim, that works well enough. Every ship Iran allows through brings down the Brent index that much more. As a long-term, leaving Iran in a position to do this shit all over again whenever they lose izzat and feel the need to swing their dicks around is just not acceptable. I suspect that a lot of countries are going the negotiation route precisely because they don't expect Iran to be around in its current state for much longer, so it's the easiest way to get their shit back to normal as soon as possible. But the US pays the eternal price of ruling the waves, which is that to some degree, every boat is your boat, and you have to give a shit about it. And as I've stated, the GSS are the ones in the real hotseat economically, because they bear the brunt of every stalled ship just as much or even moreso than the country it was trying to deliver to, hence my expectation that they're going to commit to a forceful opening.

>>65043521
Because you screech and beg all the time about how we need to open our assholes and wallets for Ukraine, then turn your backs on us when we attack a country who's foreign policy is "Death to America."

>>65043226
>their war objective
Which is? Suck Israel's dick?

>>65043523
You do jack shit for Ukraine. You've been the most unreliable 'ally' this side of the universe, even though you literally signed what basically boils down to a defensive pact with them when they gave up their nukes. Europe BUYS your weapons from you and give them to Ukraine, and you call this 'helping'. S

>>65043523
Ukraine is flat terrain on Europe's doorstep. Iran is a mountainous region halfway across the world. What would European militaries even do? There's no reason for NATO to get involved - no NATO member was attacked. What, European ships are supposed to gather "delayed courage" and escort tankers under missile fire in perpetuity off the coast of Iran while the US backs off? Literally what is the logic here?

>>65043524
>being intentionally obtuse

>>65043520
>wasn't proportional at all
>they saw Israel going to far (for them)
Common emotional point. Doesn't hold up from a military perspective, but most of the world can't tell the difference between "warcrime" and "war is hell".

>>65043519
Moving 3 months ago during the riots would have been better if we were after quick and decisive action, even if it wasn't as much shock and awe on day zero. Not having Trump making random tweets about running the straight and blasting the Euro leadership, somewhat deservedly but still, would have been better. Not having burned all military alliance bridges on refusing to play ball with Ukraine, then doubling down with threatening fellow NATO members, before wanting support would have been much better. I don't personally take anything Trump tweets about to be serious, but if he had a press sec who's entire job was to stop him from sticking his fucking foot in his mouth, this could have been handled better, much less on a kinetic level.

>>65043368
Trump spent a year telling Europeons that they were useless, irrelevant and weak, and sanctioning them. Now he's begging for their help and getting upset when it's not coming, and Europes right. This is Amercias mess of their own creation, get fucked and solve it yourself. I'd almost have preferred Kamala Harris by this point

>>65043405
Since you say you've closed the strait forever why shouldn't the US murder you to the last one? Looks like the only way to open the strait.

>>65043526
>You do jack shit for Ukraine
Except provide the intelligence, equipment, ammunition, and financial aid that has propped up Ukraine since Russia invaded
>>65043527
So basically we're only allies when it suits Europe? America is expected to fly across the ocean to Europes aid, and the Euros feel no obligation to reciprocate.

>>65043516
>clear and demonstrrable weakness
how so? all their arrows are still in their quiver if anything they hold the position of strength. if they where to come in on the US's side they could very well be what is needed (having a fleet of modern minesweepers ect.) to break the straight open and fuck the whole Iranian strategy.
this gives them leverage
it allows them to go to the Iranians and demand them to let their ships pass or else they'll get involved
but they don't even need to get involved
they get less than 10% of their hydro carbons from the Gulf and being the second richest region in the world are the second best placed to tank the rising oil prices
the better question is wtf are the Asians going to do about this?
they get most of their hydrocarbons from the gulf and their economies are more exposed to the oil price shock

as for Europe's relationship with the Gulf states.
they share a similar diplomatic outlook to Iran, we don't like the regime but we do have to live with them.
>UAE..which already pulled out funding for the Rafale F5 development
>The dispute centred on access to sensitive technologies, particularly in the field of optronics, which Paris refused to share.

>>65043536
Don't forget that he threatened to invade Greenland several times, and those threats were credible enough to warrant actual preparations against invasion by the EU.

>>65043544
Trump never threatened to invade Greenland. He said he wanted to take it over and the women in charge of Denmark and the EU freaked out.

>>65043433
>Iran was willing to negotiate with us
Did Iranian officials really have to heave negotiations with irgc? Really shows.

>>65043536
>oh my god he insulted us, we can no longer set rational policy
Very feminine way to run your countries

>>65043540
You provide intelligence, until you suddenly don't and cause a myriad of Ukrainian deaths and lost territory.

Regarding the rest, you are basically war profiteers at this point. You SELL your equipment to Ukraine.

>the New Yorkers are waking up
oh you

>>65043540
You're not reading a thing I'm posting. There is NOTHING European militaries can do to guarantee tanker safety in the strait, full stop. Even bombarding Iran with WW2 levels of munitions for months wouldn't do it, because all it takes is one guy with one drone to sink a ship in the year 2026. The ONLY way for this to be resolved is either through diplomacy or levels of land war carnage that would make Antietam look like a children's birthday party. Trump is trying to set things up for diplomacy, but he could easily be drawn into a proper land war in Asia, deluding himself into thinking Iran can be conquered by military means.

>>65043501
The exit strategy is the million dollar question. I first heard about the strait of Hormuz from my fathers magazines from the 80s. Peak pax americana neocons 2 decades ago decided against it. It feels like it was a hot potato no president wanted to deal with. It took the convergence of mercurial narcissist president+war hungry secdef+peak bloodthirst Israel+the precedent of Venezuela to give them confidence it's gonna be a quick in and out.

>>65043540
Stop pretending that you were helping Ukraine for the EU's sake. You were obliged to because of previous events.

>>65043540
This, the strategic and national level intelligence the US provides to Ukraine alone is worth its weight in gold, and lets not forget starlink.
>>65043542
and what leverage would that be exactly ? this is exactly what trump has been trying to prove, the EU has no ability to project power or conduct and meaningful global operation on scale.
>>The dispute centred on access to sensitive technologies
True, but im sore coping out to Iran and France blocking a UNSC resolution(together with China and Russia mind you) to force open the straits will slide well down GCC throats.

>>65043547
Words show intent, and they have consequences, as you are currently finding out.

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>miggers still seething that we won't die for Israel

>>65043550
How does any of that cancel out all the help we provided? Willingly. Tens of billions of dollars, if not more, to help out Europe. And yes, some of that aid has tapered off over time, as its become apparent Europe has no exit strategy in Urkaine. Nonetheless. We helped. Right away and significantly. Very telling the Euros didn't deem it necessary to return the favor.

>>65043549
If you say 'sorry' and 'thank you' we might reconsider.

>>65043522
the thing is that you can only prevent Iran form doing this by moving the straights or moving Iran.
you are saying that we need to somehow take away the UK's power to close down the Channel for shipping. That's not going to happen unless you bomb them back to the stone age and keep bombing them to keep them there.
the best option for every country other than Israel is to solve this diplomatically. To find a solution where open and free navigation trough the Straights is in everyone's best interest. Just like it was before Israel decided to wipe out Iran's leadership.
>>65043530
emotions make people vote
that being said Israel and Europe have a messy relationship. Europe follows the UN in that it's occupation outside of the 1967 borders is illegal and sanctions products from those settlements. but it's still willing to buy and trade with Israel as a whole.
Israel in the other hand has it's finger in every far right party in Europe and is funding some of the very selfsame parties that the power that be want to keep down.
they aren't friends but they are neighbors and hence have to live with each other.
the Europeans don't like that they can't influence their neighbor. but every time their neighbor acts out they are getting (some of) the flak for it
>>65043540
by not involving Europe before starting this war the US told Europe that they aren't their allies in this

>>65043475
NTA, and I don't know if I represent a majority opinion in my country, but

1) I don't like Trump and am frankly quite scandalized about way he does things. I despise his arrogant gloating, his contempt for death of innocents and victims of aggression, his abusive transactional mindset, his mockery and insults for people acting in good faith. But it's not just about form, it's rather about erosion of standards we as people could hold ourselves to.
2) However, credit where it is due, he is right about this - Europe should be able and willing to deal with problems, be it Russian aggression or Iran's antics, and it should pull its own weight.

In this case I would be supportive of both helping USA especially when it seems like it miscalculated and overextended itself, and absolutely NOT actively undermine it.

>>65043550
>You provide intelligence, until you suddenly don't and cause a myriad of Ukrainian deaths and lost territory.
Interesting way of conceding that the US offers capabilities the Europeans lack.

>>65043568
Very telling that you can't tell the difference at all between aiding a defender attacked without provocation who faces genocide if he loses, and aiding an attacker who attacks without provocation and loses face if he fails. The US wants to act like Russia, they get treated like Russia.

>>65043554
You're also forgetting that in the 1980s the U.S. was sucking down crude from Hormuz. Now its a negligible share of our consumption and absolutely dwarfed by America's own energy production.

>>65043568
Yes, you did help Ukraine, and yes, that was and is valuable. However, during this Iran conflict you very suddenly decided to poke a hornets nest without consulting any allies. Those allies are currently still occupied by the Ukraine war and can't refocus since the war is literally on their door-step. The Iran conflict was very ill thought out, and you were the aggressor.

Also the Ukraine exit strategy is very clear and simple - prop up Ukraine until Russia collapses, which is happening right now in slowmotion

>>65043475
>>65043521
Very organic, pidor.

>>65043561
>this is exactly what trump has been trying to prove, the EU has no ability to project power or conduct and meaningful global operation on scale.
they have the materiel needed to do so
but they simply don't want to do so
they have all been empires and covered themselves in glory on some foreign shores more than the US has. but they as nations simply don't want to anymore. their empires have come and gone and with it the drive to get involved for no good reason.
so they look at this mess and they calculate that it will cost them less to simply not get involved (to much) and let things play out.
and the same goes for most of the Gulf states, they also know that if trying to force the Straights fails it will harden Iran's position and make this war last longer.

there is also a contradiction in Trump demanding that Europe do more to defend it's self and then demand that they get right back into an other round of global policing the ME for the US (and Israel).
Europe already got rid of the legacy of it's cold war armies in order to switch to an expeditionary model because the US asked them to

>>65043582
Do you really but the Russia collapse any day now meme. Its been four plus years at this point. Can we accept a negotiated settlement is the only way Ukraine ends

>>65043584
>everyone I don't like is a brown shill

Stop acting like a 2010's feminist

>>65043568
you helped by providing intelligence and stockpiles of old equipment
no one asked the US to risk it's own soldier to go fight in Ukraine
the US is currently asking European countries to go risk their fleets in opening waters it's own navy doesn't risk sailing in
and that last sentence is the important one, why should the Europeans (or the tanker fleet) follow where the US doesn't dare to lead?

>>65043575
Yes, it did.
It's one of the things I appreciate US for and maintain hope that there is yet hope for the country. Actions are more important than words, but words are not meaningless either.

(not that anon)

>>65043587
and it will end in a negotiated settlement when russia comes to the negotiating table with it's tail between it's legs
the EU can keep funding this war for all eternity if it has to

>>65043587
Yes. Ukraine is currently gaining more ground than it loses. The sanctions combined with Ukraines long-range economy targeted bombings are starting to accumulate and manifest into real world shortages. Ukraine can keep up the fight perpetually as long as they have the economical aid of the EU, Russia can not unless China or some other external force decides to prop them up. Sooner or later somethings got to give.

>>65043579
Im sorry, isn't Iran Russias major ME ally and provided the drones that have been slamming into Ukrainian pre-schools and thermal plants? Maybe its wise not to permit Russia and its pals to have a chokehold over Hormuz and the Red Sea trade routes that Europe relies upon. But I guess Europe doesnt have any reciprocal obligations to help the U.S.

>>65043601
We have no obligations to help you during your wars of unprovoked aggression, that is correct yes.

>>65043598
>>65043599
Soon or later/eventually isn't an exit strategy. It's hope. And that's a perfectly valid strategy for the EU to pursue. Still the U.S. is directly and indirectly facilitating Europe in this mission, in addition to the earlier major assistance to Ukraine.

Contrast that to the Euros actively undermining the U.S. by denying bases and vetoing at the UN.

>>65043594
>hope for the country
You realize Europe is cooked right. Whatever happens in Iran, the U.S. will ne okay. I genuinely don't think Europe will be recognizable without dramatic change in how you all run shit.

>>65043601
it's not wise neither to push Ukraine to surrender to all of Russia's demands and downplay the role of their intelligence in Iranian strikes because the orange pedo wants to suck Putin's cock that badly

>>65043572
>emotions make people vote
Yeah, I meant that in a C'est la vie sense.
>you are saying that we need to somehow take away the UK's power to close down the Channel for shipping
In large part, it's a matter of desire. There are two things that deter a country, not wanting to, or not wanting to suffer the consequences of doing it. Iran wants to, at BEST, establish an indefinite toll booth on the Hormuz and use it to prop themselves and their proxies up.
>bomb them back to the stone age
That can be arranged.
>To find a solution where open and free navigation trough the Straights is in everyone's best interest.
And the best way to get Iran to that point is to convince them that the alternative is getting bombed back to the stone age.
>Just like it was before Israel decided to wipe out Iran's leadership.
But Iran DIDN'T consider it to be in their best interests. Leveraging the Hormuz has been part of their MO since the 80s. Every other time their pattern of belligerence has come back to bite them, they have leaned on the Hormuz to try and re-assert control of the situation. The UK doesn't regularly threaten to shut down the Channel, in large part because they aren't funding Anglican militants to start shit in Germany and then getting their shit pushed in.

>>65043609
Although I agree that denial bases was a dick move and wrong, equating Iran and Ukraine is just arguing in bad faith.

>>65043612
>Europe is cooked because it doesn't cave in to bloodthirsty tyrants in Tel Aviv
stage 3: anger

>>65043601
it would be good yes, but Iran is much more a mercenary force.
it's buddies with russia and china because no one else will be buddies with them.
they aren't allies co-coordinating strategy or taking one for the team. they are like the axis in WWII fighting their own little wars for their own petty interests united only because they where fighting some of the same people.

When Iran weren't getting sanctioned into oblivion they had very cordial and friendly relations with most of Europe and has a good chunk of change worth of trade with them to.
also they didn't close act because russia asked them to but because of things happening in the ME.
as such for the POV of many European capitals diplomacy very much is the better option and the US rushed in more or less blindly

>>65043609
It is not hope, it is a fact. The EU has infinite resources compared to Russia. With infinite vs finite, finite loses, it is just a question of when.

Also, there's a world of difference between assisting a defender vs aiding an aggressor. You could claim that it is often morally correct to refrain from aiding an aggressor.

>>65043590
Everyone pushing a certain narrative IS a shiIl, yes.

>>65043619
>hey are like the axis in WWII fighting their own little wars for their own petty interests united only because they where fighting some of the same people.
NTA. The difference this time around, and the reason we're not calling it WW3 yet, is that blue team is doing the same.

>>65043609
>Soon or later/eventually isn't an exit strategy
it would also appear to be the US's exit strategy in relation with Iran.
the key difference here is that with Ukraine it was started by a third party to the US-Europe relationship, a common adversary.
with the Iran war the US started it without any forewarning to Europe.
you can't expect the same outcome for a different starting point

>>65043587
Call 112 pidor.

>>65043612
Oh I don't doubt there will be developments in EU, good or bad is going to depend a lot on each of us here.

For US I only hope, that it will end up recognizing what did make America great, and that nihilism and sycophancy is not it.

>>65043568

>Exit strategy

The exit strategy is to stop wringing your hands, put your big boy pants on, and start wringing Putin's neck, you tremulous itch-tits-having eunuch.

>>65043616
Ukraine is the major foreign policy issue for Europe. You expect and demand American help. Which was provided, generously. Even though USA hit the pause button on direct aid in 2025, no single country has yet to contribute the more than the USA. Despite the fact that we are an ocean away. And we still provide important intelligence and access to key equipment (even if it's now being sold instead of donated) that Ukraine can't get anywhere else.

Iran is a major foreign policy issue for the U.S. Yet Euros feel absolutely no obligation to help. In fact they've actively undermined America. Even though Iran is one of Russia's main allies.

The conflicts are not directly comparable, but it's hard not to wince at the double standard.

>>65043635
Trump has literally being going around the earth whacking Russian allies and seizing his ships. The fact he doesn't screech like Kaja Kallas doesn't mean Russia isn't getting squeezed by the US.

You have to understand Trump is a 1970s sleezebag businessman. The number one rule in that game is don't talk shit about the people you're trying to fuck over. You've got to pay attention to his actions.

>>65043644
right now he's letting Russian tankers supply oil to Cuba despite the blockade, quite literally sitting in the cuck chair while Putin helps him circumvent the US' own sanctions on Cuba lol

>>65043614
it would appear that the bombing them back into the stone age strategy isn't working (as fast) as planned
In general it is in Iran's interest to keep the straight open because doing so let's them make most of their money.
that's why they don't mess with it unless they are directly attacked.
it's nice of you to point out the 80'ies tanker wars. that started when Iraq invaded Iran and started to attack it's oil infrastructure and tankers.
we can see a clear line of continuity here.
When you fuck with us directly we close the Straights. When you don't we'll happily keep it open for decades on end.
the thing we'd need to make them more honest is for the Gulf state to also get the ability to close the Straights. that would also address the issue of any tolls being levied on it.

asking Iran not to leverage the Straights would be like asking the UK to just not leverage the Channel and letting Napoleon cross freely.
The UK stopped leveraging the Channel because it and the continent learned to get along.
this is also what ultimately will bee needed in the Gulf. for the IRGC to stop meddling with other peoples affairs and for other to stop meddling in theirs
again you can't move those countries so learn to get along or learn to be poor again are their only long term options

>>65043634
Trump talks mad shit, but his substantive polices are directionally correct. Even if the execution is occasionally lacking.

>>65043637
>we are a county of over 350 milion people
>we have an economy over 31 trillion
>why hasn't any one of your countries individually done more even touch your largest country is a fifth the size of our population and economy
you are making shit arguments to try and defend a shit position an are in effect "what about"ing like a thurdy shill

>>65043637
The US is nowhere near the top contributor to Ukraine when you factor in the size of the nationsl econony. The US has contributed measly amounts in relation to GDP, while many EU nations have contributed sizeable percentage points. You can't expect fucking Latvia to contribute more than one of the largest economies on earth, that would be retarded.

The fact of the matter is that the EU has contributed more to Ukraine in monetary terms than the US has.

Regarding Iran. a) You were the aggressor, b) The war was unprovoked, and c) You did not consult your allies (who you previously claimed were not allies plus threatened with invasion) beforehand.

>>65043549
You're doing the thing again man, insulting while pleading.
In your painfully obvious attempt to goad others (that you didn't inform beforehand) to foot the bill of this mess you're giving them the perfect excuse.
If the world's largest navy that's already present in the area can't do it what hope do we have with a fraction of the budget. Plus it'd take us a month+ to get ships there.
>>65043581
If your currency is the world reserve you're always vulnerable to crises in globally traded commodities.

>>65043657
What does per capita have to do with anything when absolute aid is all that matters? What's more useful a battery of American HIMARS that represent 0.0000001% of American GDP or 5,000 flashlights from Estonia that's 0.1% of teir GDP.

Importantly in the first years of the war, when the situation was most fluid and dynamic, and Ukraine was stunting entire axis of advsnces and launching major counteroffensives, America was providing more aid than the EU. Despite the fact the EU is about 50% bigger population wise.

You're just doing everything to discount the massive amount of help the U.S. provided Europe when asked to take the sting out of the fact Europe can't or won't help the U.S.

>>65043661
>You were the aggressor, b) The war was unprovoked
Repeat that ten more times pls.

>>65043664
>>65043661
Then we should stop being allies. As you've said our aid to Ukraine isn't valuable, and Europe doesn't want to help in Iran. It doesn't seem like Europe has much to offer the USA and the USA doesn't have much to offer Europe.

>>65043669
due I'm pointing out that you are asking why there isn't a single European country that has provided more in absolute terms than the US as a whole
that's like asking why there isn't a US state that'd given more than the EU combined

the US chose to help Ukraine because a) it has treaty with it obliging it to do so
b) because it's in it's own interest to blunt russian aggression
c) it was working with allies to do so

you will note that a) Europe doesn't have an obligation to help the US in a war that it chose to start.
b) Europe has no interest in encouraging the US to start frivolous wars
c) the US didn't even bother asking them until after it became clear it wasn't going as planned

>>65043669
Percentage points matter when you try to essentially shame the EU by claiming that the US has helped more than their individual countries compared individually in absolute terms. The point is of course true, but very disingenous since the EU taken together hss given more in absolute terms, and the individual countries have given more in relative terms (i.e suffered more economically as a result of the aid).

Also, why should the EU help the US in american wars of aggression? I genuinely, as a euro, don't understand the thought process. Do you think that by helping Ukraine, a country under attack, you purchased some sort of coupon that you could in the future cash in to force the EU to attack another country in a war of aggression?

>>65043678
Ok, I have the papers right here, just let me get a pencil.

>>65043675
how did it provoke the war? by the US backing out of the nuclear deal?
>>65043678
US aid to Ukraine is very valuable both for the Ukrainians and for the US who gets to degrade russian capabilities for pennies on the dollar
Europe wasn't asked to help with Iran, it's been told to go open up the Straights after the USN said it wouldn't
allies aren't your lapdogs and as the leader of an alliance you can't ask the rest to follow where you daren't lead
also it was the US that got art.5 limited to the Europe and North America
the US as asking a defensive alliance that cover an other part of the world to come do what it doesn't have the balls to do in a war it started
comparing that to giving aid to a third party is frankly not just stupid but malicious

>>65043696
>I genuinely, as a euro
Are you from Spain by any chance ?

>>65043649
>learn to get along or learn to be poor again are their only long term options
Iran has chosen to be poor for decades, because that would involve walking back the whole DEATH TO AMERICA DEATH TO ISRAEL part. It would objectively be in their best interests, but their logic doesn't work that way. The only thing that has stopped them from being another Saudi Arabia has been their unwillingness to chill the fuck out, because they built their entire raison d'etre on jihadism. And if you give them the encouragement of showing them that the US will fold to pressure on the Hormuz, then they will KEEP doing it. They have said as much, it is their declared plan to "not go back to the pre-war status quo" regarding the strait.
>When you fuck with us directly we close the Straights. When you don't we'll happily keep it open for decades on end.
"I will ruin the world because a country I have picked fights with for decades got sick of my shit" is not a healthy relationship. That's the core of my more provocative countrymen's issues with Europe's stance on the matter. By virtue of being the center of the global commodity market, the US HAS to give a fuck about the well-being of everyone else's economies, as well, and the degree to which one of the main powers capable of at least pitching in is okay with sitting back and letting Iran abuse them like that is frustrating.

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>>65043688
There's still a basic incongruence that America, which you may note is not located in Europe, has provided more help to a European country than any single European country has. By any measure that is extremely generous by Americans to our European friends.

Now of course, I wouldn't expect Europe to provide anywhere near that level of assistance against Iran, but some EU countries have been actively undermining America's efforts.

>>65043704
No, I am sadly a Swede.

>>65043701
I'll get my quill and ink (I wasnt beaten enough as a child)

>>65043696
I would have thought $126 billion, or whatever the exact figure is, would have at least gotten us basing rights. Apparently not.

>>65043549
Trump is the most woman leader out there, having social media bitch fits over perceived slights and putting personal relationships over everything else. Treating friends like shit then sucking Russian and Isreali cock and acting all shocked when told to stfu

>>65043709
Huh, unexpected to be honest. was expecting some kind of far western European since they seem to be the most vocal opponents of the US.

>>65043716
You thinking about sucking cock a lot don't you.

>>65043703
God forbid we expect Europe to police a waterway it relies upon.

>>65043703
Iran has been hostile to the U.S. since the revolution. It's first act of foreign policy was taking our diplomats hostage in 79. This has been a long time coming.

>>65043721
the waterway was fine because you started shit

>>65043705
>Iran has chosen to be poor for decades
you want to bring up history but only to the cut of point you want because it suits your narrative. and that cut of point is right after the Iraq-Iran war. Just as with the tanker wars in the 80'ies you conveniently leave out what started it.
right after the revolution overthrew a very unpopular very brutal and cruel dictatorship propped up by the west. they got attacked by Iraq with the support including arms shipments from the west.
that war made them adopt the whole deathcult mentality and made them feel like if they don't control the whole ME it will happen again.
it very much isn't a healthy relationship or a fun neighbor to have (or a place to live in).
none the less it is the Iran that exists to day and thus the Iran we are going to have to account for going into the future.

we can spend spend weeks discussing who did what first, just like the French and the English. But that frankly won't help us going forward. As such if you do care about the world economy as a part of it or as it's hegemon. you should be striving to get them to adopt a co-operative framework instead of their current destructive one.
backing out of deals and bombing them while covering for Israel isn't going to do that. the Gulf states also know that and they are seeing a world where Israel can drag the US into a war with Iran at any time and their oil exports get cut of because of it

>>65043707
>any single
what single US state has provided more aid than Germany?
lets compare apples with apples here

>>65043727
Iran is violating every law of neutrality. I'd get if the ask was to protect American/Israeli shipping from Iran, but Iran is targeting your ships. It's entire strategy is to hurt you, so you'll pressure the Americans to stop bombing them. To be clear, they are hoping your fecklessness will save then from America.

>>65043721
they where fine before the war started, they will be fine once the war is over
ergo for Europe the question is how can we get this war over as fast as possible
hence why they don't want to get involved because that would just prolong it

>>65043739
they aren't expecting Europe to save them
they are expecting the Gulf states and their Asian export market to save them, just look at this chart >>65043376 and tell me who will be pressuring the US to knock it off

>>65043737
How is comparing a sovereign county with to a political subdivision an apples to apples comparison?

By all means I'm happy to compare the aid of Texas and California to Baden-Wurttenber or Saxony

>>65043573
Way too mature of a mindset for 4chan, especially during thirdie peak hours

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>>65043733
>>65043741
And thus we wind up in proper clown world, with the US and Europe leadership screaming "just surrender bro" at each other over different wars. I'm afraid I'm going to have to bow out and get some fucking sleep before work, but it's been pleasant, anon. Have a nice day.

>>65043739
>Iran is violating every law of neutrality
boo fucking hoo, US violates laws when it shoots missiles at Iranian passenger craft or brags about bombing schools and nobody bats an eye

>Iran is targeting your ships.
so why did they let a French container ship and a Japanese LNG tanker pass through yesterday?
>It's entire strategy is to hurt you, so you'll pressure the Americans to stop bombing them. To be clear, they are hoping your fecklessness will save then from America.
it's even less in my country's interest to support the US/Israel's perpetual mayhem in the Middle East strategy

>>65043747
because the US is a union of states, 50 of them
and you are comparing it not to the union of 27 European states but to any single one of them
you are comparing the weight of fruits you can buy at the store by picking a grape from a bunch and then weighing the individual grape against a box of cherries.
compare a single grape to a single cherry or the bunch of grapes with the box of cherries
if you can't see how that isn't a unfair comparison it isn't worth anyone time to discus anything with you

>>65043750
>with the US and Europe leadership screaming "just surrender bro" at each other over different wars
I agree, the leadership isn't looking at the bigger pictuere

>>65043717
Swedes are very anti-Trump, though I wouldn't call us generally anti-US (and neither am I). I/we just hope you'll get over your current episode and go back to being somewhat reasonable (sans the gay shit, hopefully)

>>65043750
Europe has gotten weak and America has gotten mean. And both are very stupid.

>>65043764
So you just want us to elect another cuck leader who will sell us out to Europe,
Wait, I guess that makes sense, but you can't expect me to vote for that shit.

>>65043764
not that anon you were arguing with and im not even American, was just curious.
But I do respect the calm and coherent argumentation, worthy of a white man.

>>65043770
it's not even that
a lot of Europeans simply don't like the way he acts in general, his bombastic very brash way of doing things
his very open lying, inconsistency and being a republican doesn't help since most of what they consume media wise from the US is liberal
obama and biden told us to spend more on defense and they both bombed the ME but they where popular in Europe. not because of what they did but of how they did it

>>65043770
Why do maga-types, as I assume you are, think that the US establishing a world hegemony equals "selling out to Europe"? Nobody benefitted from the old world order ad much as you did, you were the ones that set it up to begin with.

>>65043770
Thanks, u2

>>65043637
I see what you mean and share that sentiment to some extent, but I maintain that the cases are not similar enough to warrant equation and interpretation of "same standard".
First is Russian aggression initiated and caused by Russia, and there was more reasons, be it in terms of defending victim of aggression against aggressor, interest in maintaining international order or US part as guarantors of Ukraine's border. That's not to say US help was not and is still not appreciated (even amid criticism).
In contrast there's Iran campaign which has been started as a preemptive attack by USA and Israel, I'll grant that possibly for good reasons, but unilaterally and without giving the allies a heads-up, perhaps because US didn't trust them to not compromise the attack by warning Iran of it. And although Iran may be Russia's ally or partner in crime, one of early workarounds around its response to the attack was easing of sanctions against Russia.

That said, I still think denial of airbases is petty and wrong, and personally I'd be in favour of helping USA finish what they started.

>>65043789
>>65043793
Very few MAGA are in love with how Trump acts, but it's part of his brand, and a way for him to differentiate himself from they typical establishment politician who all repeat the same catechism from the Yale foreign policy school.

With regards to world hegemony, the Europeans tells this story that America is killing its soft power, and maybe that's true within the EU, but not true globally. Even if you look at what Europe does rather than what it says, they've never been more intertwined with the U.S. economically, technologically, and militarily (whether that's good or bad idk). As a MAGA-lite, I tend to view it more as a rededication of the world hegemony, but on a different basis. Trump views international law and multilateralism largely as constraints to actions he wants to take in the U.S. interest. I'm not sure I agree 100%, but I'm sympathetic to the idea that we need an overhaul because the old system was too sclerotic, and the U.S. was too passive an actor, especially in the face of moves made by our adversaries.

>>65043850
The Europeans have the right not to help. They even have the right to deny us airbases. And as a lawyer I respect the application of different standards of review based on how the conflict arose. Your point is well taken, even if I disagree.

Still, I'd offer some advice. First you may be cutting with too fine. At 30,000 feet this feels a lot like Europe telling the U.S.to fuck off, but still do our bidding in Ukraine. With a President as mercurial as Trump, with as many levers to fuck up Europe as he as, this feels a bit like your leaders are engaging in feel-goodery than clear-eyed policy.

>>65043707
cool chart, now post the one relative to their gdp

>>65043931
Relative doesn't matter though. What matters is how much aid goes in absolute terms.

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>>65043931
Peep the leftmost bar. During the most dynamic phase of the war, before it became a drone hell and Ukrainians had to start rounding up the retardednto keep their infantry stocked, the U.S. was giving more than Europe. Since America has 120 million fewer people. On a per capita basis the aid was greater by Americans. Despite our distance and Europe's proximity.

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>>65043944
>erm, Akchtually America has done more for Ukraine than Europe
*America under Democrat leadership had done more for Ukraine than Europe, but has since stopped under Republican leadership.
Ftfy bud.

>>65043894
>the right to deny us airbases.
american bases in germany have been very busy in the last months. tons of flights going to and coming from the middle east. nothing is getting denied and trump is still raging.

>>65043350
It’s Indian logic.

>>65043368
Trump’s an asshole and feelings often take priority over logic. This is true for morons like Trump and it’s true for the morons in charge of your country too.
Frankly it’s amazing anything gets accomplished anywhere.

>>65043285
>but even I'll admit I'm a little surprised at those two as well.
only an abject retard would think people will rise up as a foreign enemy attacks their civilian inf.

>>65043433
The fact that you think that amount of murder is okay because it was committed by Mohammedans is very revealing, Irantard.

brownoid melty thread