If mid-Cold War had sea skimming missiles but no reliable CIWS / SHORAD, how were ships expected to not die?
>>65046221Don't get in range of the missiles, simple as.
>>65046242This and killing any missile truck before it got in range. This is why the F14 was created.
>>65046221Soviet strat was extremely long range missiles, American strat was carriers.
>>65046221You either destroyed the launch platform before it saw you or prayed the missile went screwy (which wasn't uncommon).
>>65046221Countermeasures and turning away at full speed.
iirc the RN had countermeasures in the Falklands so it was a consideration some countries had started working on at least some years before
>>65046317The CIA had their "oh shit" moment in the late 60s after getting their hands on a Styx. It led to the development of CWIS and the Slick-32.
>>65046221Dance of the Vampires in Red Storm Rising gives a good account of what might have happened There's a good YT vid of this but I can't find it>there are a ton of shitty ones too
>>65046350I love these too.https://youtu.be/Ob5npjC-beo?si=K5CrjlyrBdXn4NLXhttps://youtu.be/fOXQf1UvUdc?si=TJcguHgkguF6mycQYou can also do this yourself in Sea Power, a game I can't recommend enough.
>>65046358I picked up Sea Power 2 weeks ago and I'm loving it, while it is a game it's taught me a bit and made be read about the history of the standard missiles.
>>65046361Yeah it's a blast. The campaigns are really good.
>>65046221Electronic warfare
>>65046371I love the Molniya campaign and want more persistent campaigns that force you to be careful.
>>65046221Chaff, flares, jamming, moving out of the way, firing all your anti aircraft missiles, AA guns, hopes and prayers.And the answer actually is 'all of the above'. but yeah, surface ship survivability between the late 60s and early 80s wasn't exactly great.
>>65046372When did they start deploying chaff?
>>65046377Seeing they had smoke launchers since WW2 I imagine they started loading them with chaff as soon as radar guidance turned up.
>>65046373>tfw losing Drakon 1 in the last two minutes of GambitThat little nigga was our eyes in the sky.
>>65046384I managed to keep by ships but the oceans were full of pilots.
>>65046376>Soviets claimed to have data linked hunter killer packs of sea skimming supersonic missiles that would divide targets to maximize damageHelpings of salt aside, I would not have wanted to be a NATO sailor fucking around in North Sea back then.
>>65046377Since almost as long as radar:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaff_(countermeasure)#Second_World_War
>>65046391Yak-38 is certified ass.
>>65046396In the 70s and early 80s being on a NATO picket ship was a suicide mission, you turn your radar on so no one else has to and you eat the first volley of missiles.
>>65046421I found the best use of them was to stay near the edge of SAM range and bait shots to distract away from the missile volley.
>>65046434Oh no, I'm sure the Navy deeply valued their stock of Gearings and would never do that to them.
>>65046221
>>65046445I know your joking but the funny thing is everyone understands the infantry point man is expendable and will alert to an ambush with red mist but many don't understand we do the same thing with IFVs and ships.I started watching a former Burke crewman and he openly says they were the missile spung of the formation.
>>65046350>a good YT vid of thisgot taken down via copyright claim, despite the creator (supposedly) having permission from the estate.
>>65046221Aside from what people already said, there's also the>don't be a surface shipoption, which both sides heavily invested in, in the form of subs, US carriers and for the Soviets, their fleet of maritime patrol and naval strike aircraft.
>>65046396>Helpings of salt aside, I would not have wanted to be a NATO sailor fucking around in North Sea back then.>in North Sea Maybe the Soviets could have projected some air power into the Norwegian Sea.But the North Sea? Absolute fucking deathtrap for anything with a red star on it. NATO had radar coverage over most of it, AWACS were based in Britain, Iceland and Greenland, US carrier groups had E-22s and Tomcats (and Phantoms before that) to counter this exact Soviet move. Any kind of mass sortie by Bears would be found and intercepted, and without the Bears the Badgers and Backfires can't actually find targets.NATO spent decades tracking Soviet submarines, but if somebody got off a salvo of cruise missiles at a NATO formation it would probably be a sub.NATO understood how dangerous those missiles were, and how hard it was to intercept them. That is why the target was not the missile, but the killchain.That being said, if the missiles fly, you're most likely fucked. Late 60s and most of the 70s were a scary time on the surface. Only in the 80s did CIWS and SAMs evolve enough to give ships a chance.
>>650463171982 was 3/4ths of the way between the time the Styx was introduced into service and the end of the Cold War, and into the final quarter of the entire Cold War if we assume that the Cold War ran from 1950 to 1990I'd hardly call that "mid">>65046350>Dance of the Vampires>Phalanx shoots down dozens of supersonic missilesyeah um>>65046221as early as the late 60s NATO warships had deployed EW countermeasuressome of them were pretty ass but some were pretty goodwhich is which, fuck knowsthis is one of the earliest, Type 669, seen here onboard the RN County-class destroyers Glamorgan and Fife, installed by 1965
>>65046971Phalanx gets SOME missiles, but most are intercepted by the Aegis cruisers. And Phalanx-equipped ships also get hit.Some missiles also go for chaff, some are presumably jammed though IIRC that is not mentioned.I still think Phalanx (and Goalkeeper, too) were a bit ooverhyped, especially against the big supersonic missiles the Soviets used.
>>65047050The Soviet missiles were also over-engineered disasters with horrid reliability.
>>65046221Countermeassures were a thing.The missile doesn't know where you are when it can't see shit.
>>65047050>SOMEReread the chapterDozensWhich is retardedClancy clearly forgot the math in this section
>>65047178>Clancy clearly forgot the math in this sectioniirc they used Harpooon to wargame those scenarios, and Phalanx was stilll relatively new back then. They probably overestimated it.OTOH, the system was develloped to counter those exact Soviet missilles.
>>65046221soviet missiles were hardly sea skimming in the modern sense, they had around 50-150m minimum altitude until the mid 80s, which is much easier to detect and shoot down than actual sea skimmers like Exocet or Harpoon who fly less than 5m above the water.soviets generally weren't big on low flying missiles because they are more visible from the air and they were trying to take on US carrier groups who obviously had air cover. they were also big on supersonic missiles which get massively decreased range if flying low so even if this was an option for a missile it likely wouldn't be used.
>>65047506Styx could only go down to 300 fteven the big ones like Sandbox and Shipwreck, only 100 ftfor comparison, Exocet was 7 to 35 ft
>>65046971>Phalanx shoots down dozens of supersonic missilesIIRC the phalanx only got two out of more than a hundred and one was so close that it still did some damage
>>65046971>>>>>>Phalanx shoots down dozens of supersonic missiles>Tico/other VLS destroyers take out about 60% of the incoming missiles before their tubes are empty>entire formation begins vomiting chaff and jamming>carrier the main character is on decoys 2-3 missiles with chaff rockets>forward phalanx takes out a missile so close to the flight deck that fragmentation kills exposed crewmen>aft phalanx errors out and shuts down>2 missiles impact from aft, 1 hits the corner of the flight deck, starting a massive fire on the aviation decks, the other impacts the base of the island. Explosion kills almost everyone in the CIC sans the main character>marine landing ships they were escorting take multiple hits, stored multi ions detonate, lost with all hands>every other ship in the formation larger than a frigate is it at least once, with every cruiser (including Ticonderoga) either sunk or reduced to a hulkYeah dude RSR/Dance of the Vampires was totally a love-letter to the phalanx
>>65048100*munitionsPlease forgive me for phoneposting
>>65046221just tank that shit like they did off okinawa
>>65048108>multi ion munitions detonateThat's what you get for storing that Area 51 shit around marines
