why are soviet ifv so mediocre when compared to their western counterparts?
>soviets>protecting infantryThey exist to get squads to the front or just beyond. Survival was surplus to requirements
>>65048436Survival?
>>65048424If it works, it's good enough! Probably how they saw it
Which 60's western IFV you are comparing it to?
>>65048424I think they see their soldiers as more expendable than western armies do
>>65048424The BMP-1 and 2 are really old-ass IFV's, its not so much that they're worse but the fact they're still considered worth deploying in the 21st century without a lot of upgrades that makes them mediocreA lot of stuff from that era is still rattling around regardless of its obsolescence because 'new' costs big money
>>65048424The BMP was tthe first one that got mass produced, and they never really improved the thing because>>65048449
What's the minimum armament you'd need to wreck a BMP? An M72 LAW should work against all of them, right?
>>65048484Yeah, they die to Javelin and Gustav rounds as wellCertain 50cal should also fuck them up bad enough as well
>>65048450I’d unironically take an m113 with a pintle mounted m2 and a methed up gunner over a bmp1
>>65048449not really. There were "known issues" with it, but due to 1) Soviet war doctrine which emphasized that pretty much everything was expendable (even tanks were built for cheap so they yould be churned out by the thousands, used in a battle and never expected to make it back) and 2) There were constant internal power struggles inside the soviet system, with those in favour of the government being essentially untouchable and beyond any criticism, those who tried to hold on to their esteemed positions without rocking the boat and those who just had to make sure they met the monthly production quotas. All this reated an environment which discouraged any attempt for "individual thinking". If the design was approved by politbyro (the governing central commitee) then it was considered unassailable and to question that the design could be further improved would be to questiong the decision-making process of the government. That would get you very quickly either against the wall or on a train headed to Siberia. So you just do what you are told and keep your head down. Don't try to improve things, that's not your job. your job is to meet your monthly production quotas.
>>65048494That's an APC.
>>65048424They saw very little updating. Like the M113 got shunted aside by newer designs in the 80s, while the soviet equivalent of the Bradley or Marder is literally a BMP-1 with an ATGM and a slightly thicker hull. In 1966 a lower profile hull and an autocannon might have actually been better than western equivalents; but times change and if you don't change with them then you'll be victim to those that do.
>>65048424how many anti tank weapons can a squad sized force carry? the soviets will bring 1 more tank than that number.
>>65048492So I could technically eliminate a column of BMPs if I roll up and surprise them in a Vulcan Carrier?
>>65048484They're tinfoil armor level. Some are autocannon proof on the front only, but most are vulnerable to a regular rifle with AP ammo from the side or rear. Think STANAG 4569 level 1. You really need HMG level armor (STANAG 4569 lvl4) to get an acceptable western level of protection vs dumb artillery.Soviet BMPs are why HEDP for 40mm nade launchers exists.
>>65048509Yep it'll degrade all the optics and weapon systems in seconds and sail right through the sides, parts of the front and utterly butcher the crewMost of the armour is in the front and turret but I doubt it'd stand up to much in cannon class rounds for long
>>65048522>>65048529Amazing, and thank you. I should put that in my writefagging somewhere.
>>65048424>mediocreweird war of saying>complete and absolute horse shitBMP was dreamed up by hohol CIA double agents with the explicit purpose of killing as many of its inhabitants as possible
>>65048424>SovietYou may as well ask why retards are stupid. The soviets encouraged mediocrity.
>>65048454>its not so much that they're worseits very much that they are deeply flawed and absolute shit since their inception. Tired of pretending they were "good for their time." they deserve everything they get shat on for and more
>>65048541Lies!The biggest trick was enabling the VDV to pay $4.2mil for the air-dropped BMD with worse everything, interchangeable nothing, orphan platform where the only armour was a stack of the sales pamphlets
>>65048424I should call her
>>65048492everything dies to the Gustav with the right ammo. BMPs die to regular machine guns because of the thin armor since they needed to keep the "amphibious" joke. Which compromised the entire design due to the severe compromises they had to do to make that piece of shit float
>>65048551They made a child sized one?
>>65048424look at dem cheeks, the slut
>>65048424built on the cheap in absurd numbers'quantity has a quality all of it's own'
>>65048609This is true when the individual unit has a basic level of quality, such as the Sherman in WW2.
>>65048484
>>65048498pointless semantics with zero relation to combat capacity.
>>65048609>'quantity has a quality all of it's own'>builds half a dozen types of totally incompatible vehicles for the same roles with zero interoperability and parts commonality>on the cheapare you sure about this?
>>65048657The primary physical distinction IS their combat capability.If it can fight with the infantry you can call it an IFV with ease.If it's at best a mobile gun carrier, then you're better off calling it an APC.
>>65048657Are you retarded?
>>65048626>armored>CBRN protection>amphibious>main gun and ATGM capable of frontally penetrating contemporary enemy MBTsIt's good enough.
>>65048668>If it can fight with the infantry you can call it an IFV with ease.ok, M113 ACAV(1963) is an IFV, by design.
>>65048673lol, lmao even
>>65048679>>65048681You get one pull of the trigger. 100% accuracy.What is more likely to kill an enemy tank, 73mm HEAT projectile or 12.7mm steel core bullet?
>>65048679Until the gunner on top gets domed.It needs some modification to actually function as an IFV.
>>65048689>Until the gunner on top gets domed.that's why the gunner shield is there.>It needs some modification to actually function as an IFV.it was used as an IFV even before the gunner turret had been added, stop coping.
>>65048688>What is more likely to kill an enemy tank, 73mm HEAT projectile or 12.7mm steel core bullet?according to the soviet tests, neither.>GRAU in turn had no lighter, automatic cannon available and did not oversee any institute or bureau that would be capable of designing one, as most were disbanded in the early 60’s. Automatic guns were only developed by the Soviet air force and the navy, but those fell under different government officials, not affiliated with GRAU. What made the matter even worse was the fact that certain GRAU generals „fell in love“ with the 2A28 caliber, promoting it as „the most powerful gun ever mounted on an IFV“. When actual officers in charge of these vehicles complained about the gun’s poor performance and accuracy, they were accused of poor maintenance and insufficient training with all the complaints being silently swept under the rug. But the rumors slowly made their way up the Soviet ranks and in the end, GBTU forced the issue by organizing official shooting trials at Kubinka proving grounds.>A BMP-1 was to fire against an obsolete T-55 tank at 800 meters (the target was not moving). And the result of the trials? Of 50 shots, only 17 did hit the tank - others were carried off their trajectory by the wind. The shells that did hit made their impacts under different angles – some ricocheted, some did not, but in the end, not a single shell managed to penetrate the vehicle. After the trials, a driver just drove off with the undamaged tank – a fitting testament to the inefficiency of the Grom gun.
>>65048693>that's why the gunner shield is there.Luckily, the enemy limits himself to only fighting us directly from the front.There is no imaginable situation where an IFV could require all-around protection for the gunner on top.
>>65048703>Luckily, the enemy limits himself to only fighting us directly from the front.the shield covers the gunner from all sides except for the rear. stop coping like an absolute ragged bitch.
>>65048708
>>65048714>still inventing cope scenarios because your idiotic semantic bullshit got dabbed on
>>65048718>indirect fire is a cope scenarioYep, sure is.
>>65048424different philosophy. BMPs were built for a war that never happened, designed around rapid deep battle advances, recovery is not something that factored into the design there since once the IFV is disabled the soldiers inside it would no longer be able to participate in the rapid, multi-directional advance. So from a strategic perspective they might as well be dead anyways. It's why they favored cheaper designs (so they can have more of them), bigger guns (so the BMP could operate more independently/respond to more potential threats in the way of its advance, in theory) and amphibious operation (no need to stop for rivers/worry about bridges being out, in theory), and all of these things tend to require you to reduce armor which reduces crew survivability. Like a lot of Russian advancements on Soviet designs the BMP-3 is an attempt to kludge western design features onto old Soviet models with limited success. >>65048503even the M113 was generally better protected than BMPs were, not that this is a high bar to clear. Mostly because US/NATO doctrine was more based around combined arms/armor. The Bradley actually moved towards a more independent/flexible IFV but in a very different way, for very different reasons than the BMP.
>>65048718Shrapnel in a combat engagement is imaginary cope scenarios? It doesn't even need to be an airburst munition, it can just be frag making its random merry way around from its explosion, as it so often does.
>>65048726>those ever-present north vietnamese and soviet airburst shells are totally the decisive factor that doesn't allow M113 to be an IFV under the definition that i declared>and even if a roof was added i'd invent another cope to autofellate myself with semantics about IFVs instead of manning up and admitting that i'm a subhuman braindead drolling retard
>>65048735The M113 is supposed to be an IFV?
>>65048734>Shrapnel in a combat engagement is imaginary cope scenarios?airburst shells in SEA are>t doesn't even need to be an airburst munition, it can just be frag making its random merry way around from its explosion, as it so often does.nope, not even close. what a disingenous lying scumbag you are, hanging onto the last straw just to prop up your senseless bullshit,
>>65048745So an indirect mortar shell which hits somewhere in the vicinity is completely unthinkable?
>>65048743did you miss >ok, M113 ACAV(1963) is an IFV, by design.because you were dropped on your head too many times or was it because your mom shat you out from the wrong hole?>According to Ralph Zumbro the ARVN had modified the M113s to function as "amphibious light tanks" and not as the battle taxis U.S. designers had intended. Instead of an armored personnel carrier, the ARVN used the carried infantry as extra "dismountable soldiers" in "an oversized tank crew". These "ACAV" sets were eventually adapted to U.S. Army M113s with the arrival of the army's conventional forces in 1965. The vehicles continued to operate in the role of a light tank and reconnaissance vehicle, and not as designed in theater. The U.S. Army soon came out with their own ACAV version.https://reference.org/facts/M113_armored_personnel_carrier/N3aekwcp
>>65048735>and even if a roof was addedAnd armor included and firepower increased to make it capable of effectively fighting with the infantry.
This guy is very mad.
>>65048749it wouldn't threaten M113 any more so than a BMP would, so i don't see your point. are you saying that BMP is unfit to be called an IFV? i agree.
>>65048757Oh, my mistake, I thought you were arguing for the BMP. No, I don't think it's well suited as an IFV.
>>65048752>to make it capable of effectively fighting with the infantry.>effectivelyanother weasel word here. just how much of a lying loser are you?>hurr durr there are later modifications of the M113 therefore ACAV cannot be an IFV just because.ok i guess there were no IFVs before Bradley since they were all worse. M2 is the only true IFV in existence.
>>65048761then we're mostly in agreement and there's no point in arguing further.
>>65048668To be fair, the 60s BMP-1 is arguably bringing less fight than an M113 with an M2.What does the 60s bmp bring? A 73mm only loaded with HEAT rounds that are basically incapable of killing infantry without a direct hit due to minimal fragmentation and a high explosive load comparable to an offensive hand grenade? I guess the PKT is pretty nice.
>>65048774>What does the 60s bmp bring?CBRN protection and slightly thicker frontal armor. BMP supposedly could withstand full caliber 20mm AP while M113 could resist .50 cal AP from several hundred feet distance.that's about it.
>>65048765>another weasel word here. just how much of a lying loser are you?I'm sorry you're wrong and upset about it.>ok i guess there were no IFVs before Bradley since they were all worse. M2 is the only true IFV in existence.BMPs were quite capable of fighting effectively with the infantry. The combination of armored firepower significantly improved the vehicle's effectiveness in battle. Being capable of frontal penetration of MBTs even with the main gun was an obvious bonus too.>>65048774A 73mm HEAT round into your window, foxhole or bunker slit will do enough.
>>65048774>I guess the PKT is pretty nice.That makes me think, what's the smallest vehicle you could devise to make a tank coaxial gun with a big box of ammo really mobile? Something like the MALP from Stargate but with and M240 or PKT on it?Probably not practical, more of a funny idea.
>>65048786>I'm sorry you're wrongi'm not sorry that you're incapable of arguing except through double standards, lying and goalpost moving. i hope you die as miserably as every occupant of a BMP did in combat ever since it was built.>BMPs were quite capable of fighting effectively with the infantry.lol, lmao even
>>65048787A motorcycle of course.
>>65048790Oh yeah, that's much better than my idea.
>>65048786>A 73mm HEAT round into your window, foxhole or bunker slit will do enough.If they can even hit it I suppose. There's a reason why they ditched it for an autocannon and upgraded the old BMP1s with one as well
>>65048796Ah and yet BMP-3 has both.
>>65048774>A 73mm only loaded with HEAT rounds that are basically incapable of killing infantry without a direct hit due to minimal fragmentation and a high explosive load comparable to an offensive hand grenade?Yeah, that sounds pretty good. The SADF seemed pretty happy with the Ratel 60's gun for lobbing HE from a light vehicle in support of infantry.
>>65048814because sovets doubled down on their retardation, literally>What made the matter even worse was the fact that certain GRAU generals „fell in love“ with the 2A28 caliber, promoting it as „the most powerful gun ever mounted on an IFV“.When actual officers in charge of these vehicles complained about the gun’s poor performance and accuracy, they were accused of poor maintenance and insufficient training with all the complaints being silently swept under the rug.>The tests took place against two worn-out T-72 tanks and once and for all have shown the dominance of the 30mm gun. While neither of the guns was able to knock out any of the tanks completely(something the Zarnitsa supporters claimed to be ossible), the 30mm gun caused significant external damage by estroying optics, external fuel tanks and one small 30mm shell even jammed one of the turrets. With these results, GRAU was forced to concede defeat. 30mm Object 675 would finally be accepted in service later on as the BMP-2. As a last act of defiance however, GRAU representatives decided that the BMP-2 production would not exceed 10 percent of the total BMP-1 production.
>>65048732>even the M113 was generally better protected than BMPs wereNo it's not, they're essentially the same.>M113 - Armor - 5083 aluminum alloy 28–44 millimeters (1.1–1.7 in)[4]>BMP - Armor - Armor 6–33 mm (0.24–1.30 in) welded rolled steel
>>65048814>100mm with actual HE rounds and the ability to strike with accuracyVs>73mm with only HEAT (1960s) and threability to occasionally strike a 2 square meter target occasionally at 700mAh yes, very comparable. You got me copper
>>65048796>If they can even hit it I suppose.Well they're going to close in to a range where they will. You can count on the Soviets to do that, if anything.
>>65048826>60mm mortarEither way you slice it the mortar has more HE filler in a pure HE shell and frag in the frag shell. I can only imagine why they were satisfied with a larger casualty radius
>>65048673>main gun and ATGM capable of frontally penetrating contemporary enemy MBTsYou have to hit before you can penetrate.
>>65048774>What does the 60s bmp bring? A 73mm only loaded with HEAT rounds24 HEAT rounds (capable of taking out Cold War era tanks) and 16 HE/FRAG rounds for use against infantry along with the .30 machine gun, both in a fully protected turret. That's far better than a .50 in an unprotected pintle mount and still better than a .50 with a belatedly installed gunshield.
>>65048842>closing the distance with NATO tanks aggressively>in a BMPwhat's a worse fate, this or being a soviet submarine sailor?
>>65048869Hope you're not within 500 meters of one if that's what you're relying on.
>>65048872>and 16 HE/FRAG roundsthat don't fit into the autloader and are stored inside the hull, where the commander has to get them from to manually load. impressiev.meanwhile an M113 can just put a 40mm AGL with HEDP on top and pen BMP armor at any distance without once in a blue moon hit probability.
>>65048881>>65048872>zigger posting fan fiction art for his vatnik power fantasyOh i am laffin.
>>65048786BMP cannot even carry and deploy soldiers older than 9 years old effectively, let alone fight with them.
>>65048551>>65048596I read somewhere that they made the inside so cramped, unergonomic and uncomfortable so that the soldiers inside would be so angry and pissed off at being in there, that the battlefield outside with flying bullets and explosions would be seen as preferable to being inside the BMP, so they wouldn’t cower inside when it’s time to be dropped off.
>>65048890Conveniently that's the average height of the illiterate Soviet peasant meant to operate them.
>>65048889>retarded faggot can't even discuss historical weapons without bringing up the Current Thing
>>65048884>>65048889>running dog capitalist lackeys unable to provide a valid responseI graciously accept your surrender, továrišč.
>>65048898>historical weaponsthey were contemporary weapons with tons of propaganda like your shitty images being produced about them as of just 3 years ago.
>>65048872you couldn't hit yet alone penetrate shit, proof of you being a braidnead faggot zigger. The gun is hilarously bad that you need to go nearly point blankthere's no armor on it. it's literal civial car, but without windows and tracks instead of tires. Bet modern civilian cars have better quality metal structure than bmp1and even if there's no enemy fire, this fucking shit causes concussion to it's own troop. It behaves like a fucking ship durning serious storm. It was not an uncommon sight to see recruits strugglign to stand on their feet after leaving the hatch. It was nicknamed "pig". It was also hot, loud and crampy inside, meanign troops leaving this were already exhausted especially durning hot summerI would take any II war ifv-type vehicle over bmp1 and 2
>>65048903there's nothing to provide a valid response to in any of your posts, with each being more low effort and shitty than the last.
>>65048881>sees a Super Sherman>shits itself>outside 500m
>>65048898>>65048903>provide arguemnt for a well known factsoh boy, after entire war in urkaien we're back to pre-war delusionposting
>>65048921>muh ukraineIt's a 60-year-old vehicle, for fuck's sake. Why are you trying to use a modern war as some kind of gotcha for it?
>>65048909>II war ifv-type vehicle over bmp1 and 2You'll be glad to know no such thing exists, so you'll be going on foot. Good luck.
>>65048935>a modern war>Ukrainethe newest military shit in there is 40 years old, with majority of it being BMP's age.lay off the copium reserves for the remainder of the war, pidor.
>>65048943>the newest military shit in there is 40 years old,And now you've left reality entirely.
>>65048941>You'll be glad to know no such thing existsyeah, there doesn't exist a bigger piece of shit vehicle than the BMP family, i agree.
>>65048946>civilian commercial drones are my military revolution>ignore that most armored vehicles in Ukraine are M113s, Humvees, mt-lbs and BMPs.
>>65048935you missed the ENTIRE pointbefore the urkaine war, there was constant russian shilling how good their hardware is, while we laughed at syrian or even iraq amerifats loses. Then war dropped and vatniggers shilling good proofchecked hard>>65048941laugh in sdkfz>>65048943even better, I served and it's a shame I didn't photo some of it 15 years ago. It was already modernized versions and they were used only in training as>if you survive with bmp1 you'll survive in any vehiclevatniggers were even lying with production, because "armor' or sheet metal used to build it, was thinner in certain parts than it was written on the blueprint. There was the one disfuctional one in vehicle park used for a games of "guess which round penetrated here". The corner at the rear had a penetration from a fucking SMG. Everyone knew those are metal coffins where a single guy with heavy machiengun can kill an entire squad. All of them were either scrapped or sold to collectors. It's a pinnacle of bullshit from soviets and people who experienced this 'wunderwaffe" should be grateful, because any other vehicle they get assigned on is so much better that you wont hear any complaints, because>at least it's not bmp1/2
>>65048962>civilian commercial drones are my military revolutionCheap spammable precision munitions and complete transparency of the battlefield within ~15km of the frontline is the current revolution, yes.Next up is autonomous computer systems and networking/planning through AI.
>>65048962>MT-LBsThose haven't gone extinct yet?
>>65048969>laugh in sdkfzHere's your Sd.Kfz, sir.
>>65048969>vatniggers were even lying with production, because "armor' or sheet metal used to build it, was thinner in certain parts than it was written on the blueprint.there were also issues with the heat treatment, especially on BMP-2s which have slightly thinner plates from supposedly stronger steel for the same protection, going back as far as the afghan war.iirc in chechnya there were cases of bmps penetrated by PKM fire.
>>65048975"most" armored vehicles insofar as the non-existent stocks of russian armor are concerned. they've long since switched to gold carts, ebikes, scooters and such.
>>65048984Wrong sdkfz, sir.
>>65048969>before the urkaine war, there was constant russian shilling how good their hardware is, while we laughed at syrian or even iraq amerifats loses. Then war dropped and vatniggers shilling good proofchecked hardSo you fell for bullshit and are now upset about it or something?I still don't get what this has to do with the BMP-1 in the 1960s.
>>65048993Here's Sd.Kfz for you. Ride this into battle.
>>65048973>Cheap spammable precision munitionswith 10% hit rate and control frequencies that jam each other>muh AI in 2 weekslmao
>>65048996>ww2 tracked mineunironically more survivable than a BMP
>>65048994>I still don't get what this has to do with the BMP-1 in the 1960s.the cope itt is the same as it was back then.
>>65048997>with 10% hit rate and control frequencies that jam each otherA 10% hit rate places the cost of a precision munition hit at ~5000 dollars, cheaper than it has ever been.There's also roughly 8 control frequencies in the commercial drone products, no such issue with fiber optics and far more available bandwidth in custom products.>lmao>“These machine-generated recommendations were up to 90 percent faster than traditional methods, with the best in machine-class solutions showing 97 percent viability and tactical validity,”>The article said that human-generated courses of action took about 19 minutes, with 48 percent of the options “being considered viable and tactically valid.”>“And our team didn’t observe hallucinations during the experiment,” Ohlund said.https://www.nellis.af.mil/News/Article/4370792/human-machine-teaming-in-battle-management-a-collaborative-effort-across-borders/
>>65048994I didn;t fell for any bullshit, I'm referencing how vatnigger shilling works, are you desne or what?>bmp in the 1960Im talking about bmp1 "modernized" in 1990. It was this shit after modernization. You don't need to guess how it was when it startedit's literal coffin made to transport troops asap, no matter what, by any means. And the result is a shitcan that causes your troops to vomit after ejecting or die from light fire to the sides from infantry level guns a literal sdkfz as per this anon >>65048993 is more armoured than this shitcan and it's older by 20+ years
>BMP-1>Worse than it's contemporaries, such as the M113Lmao
>>65049010>A 10% hit rate places the cost of a precision munition hit at ~5000 dollarspenny pinching at the expense of actual precision and capability is for the third world shitholes that have wasted all their artillery shells and tubes on apartment complexes.>“being considered viable and tactically valid.”>2 more weeksfunny how US will field actual weapons with this in addition to existing ones but dronekiddies will still wank themselves to off the shelf chink fps junk
>>65049013>it's literal coffin made to transport troops asap, no matter what, by any means.Which is Soviet doctrine and what it worked perfectly fine for.
>>65049020>what it worked perfectly fine for.getting your troops senselessly murdered? i kneel, soviet-sama.
>>65049020and it's perfectly fine to shit on them for doing it, especially when it's worse in reality than on paper due to commie clinical retardation
>>65049018get this one into a 16 hour BMP confinement, the sister is delusional.
>>65049025Yes. If they all die but the objective gets taken, then it's 100% fine and the next echelon drives over their corpses and continues westward.>>65049026Why shit on them for doing it when it was fundamentally a functional method of warfare?>artillery erases your grid square>tanks open up from 1km away>BMPs charge your position and dismount on your mulched comrades>continue their offensive into your OODA loop, because speed is paramount above all
>>65049033>but the objective gets takena huge "but" thereas seen over the years in most cases they mostly just all die.
>>65049019>penny pinching at the expense of actual precision and capability is for the third world shitholes that have wasted all their artillery shells and tubes on apartment complexes.You can't fly an artillery shell inside a basement or use them within risk estimate distances of your own troops without also getting them killed. Especially not at the kind of ranges artillery is forced to operate in the current situation.
>>65049033>Why shit on them for doing it when it was fundamentally a functional method of warfare?holy fuck commie brainsit's only viable if your doctrine is "swarm enemy with meat so ahrd that he's out of ammo to shoot us all", which is complete disregard for human life, especially ones brave enough to do actual combat instead of running awayWas it soviet doctrine? sure. And it's completely ok to shit on them for this. Especially when they claim in propaganda that this is not the case. BMP1 is a prime example of fund fraud, material fraund(complete vehicle was worse than on blueprint) and complete disregard of life of your own fucking grunts
>>65049033>when it was fundamentally a functional method of warfare?because it wasn't.>artillery erases your grid squaregrad cannot erase even entrenched infantry, let alone anything harder.>tanks open up from 1km awaycan't hit shit>BMPs charge your position and dismount on your mulched comradesdie before reaching front, let alone have a chance to dismount their mulched insides>continue their offensiverepeat ad nauseam until the defenders run out of ammo and pull back or soviets run out of troops.the beauties of the soviet doctrine.
>>65048424Why bother if your military doctrine consists of dumping waves of poorly trained conscripts until the enemy runs out of ammo?Ain't like they invested in training them.
>>65049040>You can't fly an artillery shell inside a basement or use them within risk estimate distances of your own troopsyou can if you use guided kits.>Especially not at the kind of ranges artillery is forced to operate in the current situation.those ranges are piss easy for modern artillery, especially because guided shells don't deteriorate with range unlike unguided ones allowing them to shoot way further.
>>65049039>as seen over the years in most cases they mostly just all die.Like I said, that's fine.There's either more where that came from, or they just shift their efforts onto another axis where there was more success. >>65049044>it's only viable if your doctrine is "swarm enemy with meat so ahrd that he's out of ammo to shoot us all"And that is viable.>which is complete disregard for human lifeWelcome to WW3, WW2 and WW1. The war they were planning to fight.This kind of moralistic bullshit about "the value of human life" is ridiculous if you, even for a single moment, consider the kind of wanton consumption of human lives that happened in both World Wars in Europe.
>>65049056>There's either more where that came from, or they just shift their efforts onto another axis where there was more success.may i see russian successes?>This kind of moralistic bullshit about "the value of human life" is ridiculous if you, even for a single moment, consider the kind of wanton consumption of human lives that happened in both World Wars in Europe.in all cases gross disregard of soldier lives was considered a grave mistake and a travesty this side of the soviet border.
>>65049059>russianAgain you're talking the current day. >in all cases gross disregard of soldier lives was considered a grave mistake and a travesty this side of the soviet border.Yes, because consumption of human lives is ok so long as you're achieving objectives.It doesn't mean their lives have any real value outside of being used as tools and resources.
>>65049045>grad cannot erase even entrenched infantry, let alone anything harder.+3 batteries of 122mm guns+organic 120mm mortarsAre what you'd expect a battalion to have at its disposal in a regimental attack, + whatever might be thrown to support them by the division.>die before reaching frontYou seriously can't think of things outside of The Current Thing, can you?
>>65049056>This kind of moralistic bullshit about "the value of human life" is ridiculous if you, even for a single moment, consider the kind of wanton consumption of human lives that happened in both World Wars in Europe.no need for that, just looking at recent eventsthere's nationswho will commit vast resources jsut to icnrease soldier survivability by 1%you have nation to commit a lot of resources and riks a lot just to bail out their own 2 pilots from enemy territoryand then, you have sovietniggers, who in 1939 and 2026 still doesn't see their own soldiers as something more than a cardboard to detonate minesand the only time it was effective was when amerifats dumped a shitton of lend-lease at soviets with allies opening 2nd front, exhausting germans. Or when beating a vastly weaker opponent. But considring ukraine, it fails even nowdespite your claims, western countries even in second war had much more focus on saving lifes of their own troops than soviets. I wonder how those meatwaves would perform without burger free gibs
>>65049064>Again you're talking the current day.you claimed the doctrine works. it hasn't changed and is used against a much smaller adversary. so may i see any, again? i'll ask as many times as necessary.>Yes, because consumption of human lives is ok so long as you're achieving objectives.that's the opposite of what i said, you absolute vermin. you should be the first to be send down the sewage pipe without air supply instead of hiding on the internet gloating anonymously about how it's good to get peopel killed like a subhuman underage faggot.
>>65049075>there's nationswho will commit vast resources jsut to icnrease soldier survivability by 1%Nations who haven't fought a peer war in two generations+.>you have nation to commit a lot of resources and riks a lot just to bail out their own 2 pilots from enemy territorySee above.>despite your claims, western countries even in second war had much more focus on saving lifes of their own troops than soviets. I suggest you do some reading on the Pacific Campaign and the infantry combat seen there.
>>65049066>+3 batteries of 122mm guns>+organic 120mm mortarsww1 artillery tactics and guns that are barely more accurate than grads. soviets couldn't into artillery, the best they had were prolonged massed barrages in general direction of the enemy, often into their own troops.>Are what you'd expect a battalion to have at its disposal in a regimental attackmore than your shitty vatnigger cope..You seriously can't think of things outside of The Current Thingyou seriously cannot think of things outside of your zigger fever dream of greatness that never was, can you?
>>65049077>you claimed the doctrine works. it hasn't changed and is used against a much smaller adversary. so may i see any, again? i'll ask as many times as necessary.>it was fundamentally a functional method of warfare?Do you not know that "was" is a past term, not present?Are you drunk off your ass or something?>that's the opposite of what i said, you absolute vermin.That is how the military and government sees it. That is what the attitude shifts into whenever you are fighting an actual meaningful war.It's OK to consume human lives as long as you achieve something with them.
>>65049084>a peer warbecause those nations have no peers outside of equally advanced and professional allies.>I suggest you do some reading on the Pacific Campaign and the infantry combat seen there.they did make an untmost effort to save lives and minimise casualties wherever possible, unlike the subhumans you worship, scum.
>>65049087>Do you not know that "was" is a past term, not present?yeah, was/were are the pronouns of the russian army, and the soviet ones which are one and the same. stop evading this you worthless vatnigger shill.>It's OK to consume human lives as long as you achieve something with them.you're a subhuman communist bootlicker if you think squandering human lives senselessly and carelessly for menial gain is acceptable.
>>65049084>Nations who haven't fought a peer war in two generations+.a contecpt and then whole doctrine of treating your wounded while doing everything to preserve lives was direct result of I WW trench butchery, you're delusional trying to defend what is literal reatardation from soviets that worked twice in history and never againmeanwhile everyone else expand upon it and get their results. There's a reason why soviets had so much casualties despite war starting in 1942 for them>I suggest you do some reading on the Pacific Campaign and the infantry combat seen there.>pacific campaignoh, that one where people were losing and risking a lot just to save their own people at all costs? holy shit, you're this retarded zigger, done talking with you
>>65049093>because those nations have no peers outside of equally advanced and professional allies.And so they can afford to push moralistic bullshit that will die the moment they end up in an actual proper war.>they did make an untmost effort to save lives and minimise casualties wherever possibleYeah, full-frontal assaults up rocky hills against fortified Japanese positions, where units get attritted to the breaking point again and again, just being replaced by another to get mulched doing the same.Sure sounds like "saving lives and minimizing casualties."Sounds more like you've got your head buried in the sand.
>>65049099>that worked twice in historyGlad you now admit that it worked. Good point for you to stop arguing as well, since you accepted being wrong.
>>65049102>moralistic bullshit"not getting your troops killed for no reason" is not moralistic bullshit, vatnigger scum.>the moment they end up in an actual proper war.it's excactly because you subhumans think like this that every war you get into is "actual proper war" for you and the wars that actual nations not led by braindead butchers do not.>Yeah, full-frontal assaults up rocky hills against fortified Japanese positionsstill missing the point about "wherever possible" to deflect from soviets just letting people die for no reason.>Sounds more like you've got your head buried in the sand.i'll keep hammering it into your rotten head for as long as you need to realize how disgustingly filthy you are and kill yourself, zigger.
>>65049106the twice tor emidn your vanigger sorry ass was>when supported by a vastly stronger nation via lend lease. Never pay them back. Still get more % loss in lfie than nations fighting germany for much longer than youand>attacking a small nation that cannot really defend against any bigger military forceand then you fucked up everywhere else, retarded vatnigger. If we remvoe lend lease and opponent being a literal 3rd world micronation, your doctrine worked ahem, never
>>65049119>"wherever possible"Oh, that's great.You send your own troops to die and then just claim it was "necessary" to justify it.That's exactly how it goes, isn't it?Their horrendous butchery of their own men vs our necessary and noble sacrifices.>i'll keep hammering it into your rotten head for as long as you need to realize how disgustingly filthy you are and kill yourself, zigger.You have the mind of a child and are probably a woman.
>>65049106yeah, it worked because you losers were bankrolled by the world's largest economy and still got so wrecked demographically thay you haven't recovered to prewar levels 90 years later and are reduced to making cope about how you losing horribly now by treating your soldiers like cannon fodder is totally different from how it was back then when you were doing the same exact thing.
>>65049124>if reality had been different it would not have workedWell it's great that reality is the way it is and not some other way, isn't it?Your althistory fan fiction is completely irrelevant.
>>65049128>You send your own troops to die and then just claim it was "necessary" to justify it.vatniggers always project, holy shit.>Their horrendous butchery of their own men vs our necessary and noble sacrifices.yes.jpgit's a noble sacrifice if it's an exception, it's horrendous butchery and subhuman behavior if you do it until you lose 15 million soldiers in a single war.>You have the mind of a child and are probably a woman.you're literally less than a slime, you're fucking vermin that is so weak and pathetic you screech when you see sunlight.
>>65049146> it's horrendous butchery and subhuman behavior if you do it until you lose 15 million soldiers in a single war.Yeah, they should've accepted being genocided by Germany instead. Why fight back when you could be a pacifist and hug your enemies instead?>you're literally less than a slime, you're fucking vermin that is so weak and pathetic you screech when you see sunlight.Yep, woman.
>>65049137>vatnigger derailing thread with his delusion vol. 2323and it all started when the shitcna of a bmp was called out as being shitcan worse than anything else in his era
>>65049154What? It was you or one of your buddies who started randomly kvetching about the BMP, trying to drag the discussion into the ongoing war in Ukraine.You're far too emotional to be having this discussion.
>>65049153>Yeah, they should've accepted being genocided by Germany insteadthey've genocided more of their own people that Germans did.>Why fight back when you could be a pacifist and hug your enemies instead?as always the vatnigger equates fighting to starving your own soldiers and depriving them of medical aid because they've outlived their purpose of moving the frontline a mile further(if that)>Yep, woman.yep, vermin. the scummiest creature on the entire website.
Wonder if it's the same "totally amerikanets" brownoid shill who derailed the Armata thread earlier
>>65049160>randomly kvetching about the BMPbut that's you zister.>You're far too emotional to be having this discussion.you're not capable of having a discussion at all.
>>65049164>they've genocided more of their own people that Germans did.Great, Nazi apologetics on top of everything.>yep, vermin. the scummiest creature on the entire website.Oh no, social shaming on an anonymous website, what will I ever do?
>>65049174>Great, Nazi apologetics on top of everything.cry me a river, communust scum. soviets were literally allied with them.>Oh no, social shamingcan't shame the shameless, if you had it you'd kill yourself years ago like your parents wish for daily.
>>65049160>listen dude it was planned to be retarded therefore you cannot call it retarded!
>>65049180>here's why being retarded is a good thingwe're at this point now
>>65048424BMP-1 was about as janky as you'd expect from basically the first large-scale adaption IFV in the world, and then hampered a bit more by political BS. Unfortunately for the Russians, it also locked in a number of doctrinal and construction practices that proceeded to age poorly, and couldn't be corrected for lack of politicla will and avaiable resources.
>>65049192All they had to do was make it a little bigger.
>>65048698>check the source>a fucking videogame dev blog with zero sourceswew lmao my dudehttps://armoredwarfare.com/en/news/general/painful-birth-bmp-2-part-1
>>65048541Do btr-3's use mixed belts or something? It always looked to me like some of those were HE shells detonating on the armor, but some shots you see nothing but the camera shake
>>65049237Probably. We had couple of AP-T shells in our HE belts to act as tracers since the HEF-I rounds don't have one.t:binnish bmp-2 gunner.
>>65048424Good engineers hamstrung by Soviet political retardation.You know that one movie, Pentagon wars? The one that's just bad reformer propaganda? I'm pretty sure that's how Soviets designed their vehicles - committees picking out entirely incompatible design choices and threatening engineers with prompt gulaging if they can't make it work
