I was a complete addict of fighter jet data as a kid, and i always loved reading about ghe f117a, the sr71 blackbird, and older fighters like the f15 and f14 tomcat. The f15 was birthed in 1969 which is still amazing to me when i think about how fucking shitty other things were in the 70s. Porsche 911s were genocidally good in the 70s and 80s, but if you look at the garbage american cars from that era, its really astonishing how futuristic our military equipment was during that time. The f15 wouldnt look out of place in 2070, let alone 1970. What do you guys think? Arent american military engineers fucking rock stars?
Aircraft are designed around specs that can be considered feasible with materials and techniques available, and as long as we have the best engines, best avionics etc we can think up and build the best stuff. As is said annoyingly everywhere all the time the Eagle was built to fight the Foxbat in the manner of "if we built the Foxbat ourselves this is what it could do" not even conceiving of how much shittier and heavier the real one really was and that it could nothing except destroy itself going too fast just to impress us. Which it did for a while.Now, are we seeing the same thing for the J-36/J-50? Dunno, but allegedly the J-20 is much much shittier than we were led to believe so yeah it's probably a similar story there. I would guess these new Chinese planes are more like "the actual 5th gen equivalents the J-20 was supposed to be and not a larping 4.5 gen" and in essence we are the ones dictating what is or isn't next gen. Far as I know the reqs the air force was looking for in NGAD very much wanted a laser weapon on board and who knows, maybe that will actually be a thing etc.
>>65053795Actual engineering is pretty underpaid. Then when you consider the clearance gatekeeping, a lot of people that have the mental horsepower to have been a good aerospace engineer in the 70s are optimizing click-through rates at Google, or being a quant on Wall Street, or if they're particularly verbally gifted getting into biglaw.I genuinely don't think the MIC gets the best and brightest these days as other fields are more lucrative or have more growth potential.
>>65053795>Porsche 911s were genocidally good in the 70s and 80sI thought those kinda had a reputation as widomakers with that nasty liftoff oversteer they had
yes people had much higher IQ back in the 60's/70'sHealthier demographics, younger, etc
>>65053863>I thought those kinda had a reputation as widomakers with that nasty liftoff oversteer they hadAnd it got worse once they started turbocharging them.
>>65053865Brezhnevian ossification is another underappreciated factor.
>>65053795We will never again see the rate of advancement in aerospace that era saw because aerodynamics has been solved. There are only so many shapes, and they were all extensively tested in wind tunnels during the mid 20th century. There are optimizations to be made during the design process, and some things they know how to do in theory but had to wait for material science to catch up, but we know how everything works. Same with stealth, all the shaping is understood, it’s just about making it compromise your aerodynamics the least. Any gain from here out will be in inlet shaping and material science, but looking at B-21 and MQ-25 stealth inlets are pretty much solved now too. So it’s pretty much just RAM, but all we can do is speculate since exact compositions are a complete black box to the world without the right clearances.
>>65053854True. Additionally with regard to the fields of engineering broadly today, how they are structured administered and operated/run, most *companies* that are engineering firms or -adjacent, are owned or controlled by private equity and hedge funds. In other words, all forms of engineering today (electronic-aerospace-mechanical-computer-robotics all of it) are *directed* by the technocrat/finance class and their assets. In the 'vintage era' of engineering OP refers to, the technocrat-finance class didn't exist it was old school industrialists (some of whom were actual engineers holding top level positions inside the companies themselves) and bankers.Whole structure of major engineering is different today. It's a different business culture and structure, financially and administratively.
>>65053887>We will never again see the rate of advancement in aerospace that era sawCorrect. 1945—1970, will never again see that neck-snapping pace of development in aerospace and spaceflight, but moreover in electronics (transistor, 1947) and computer technology, materials etc. It was the most stunning advancement in human machine progress quarter century ever seen.
didnt read, dont worship your idea of the past, live todaydont worry Luke 12:25-31do something good Matthew 5:15-16
>>65053890kill everyone with an admin or project management degree also kill everyone who is currently a CEO
>>65053854Raytheon/Collins pays tech (software engineering/infrastructure/systems) less than half of what FAANG get in total compensation, salary+bonus+stock. FAANG isn’t even the top paying group these days.Slap on all the clearance restrictions and you get the people who couldn’t cut it elsewhere and the true believers.GWOT didn’t help either. You’re not designing weapons to “protect us from the commies” anymore, you’re fully aware that what you’re building may be used to do some politically questionable decisions. Personal values along with peer pressure makes that less appealing. If they want to get past the stigma and get the top people they’ll need to pay for it and frankly they don’t.
>>65053898You're an absolute fucking retard for putting the starting point in 1945.
>>65053951No because in terms of aviation powerplant technology advancement the time interval was an even more constricted 1940—1943and for airframe construction/materials it was 1937—1945>'starting point'Of what, specifically? (My post clearly refers to aerospace and electronics technologies, from which in same time interval there were related-industry spinoffs)After World War II another industry that vastly diversified and fast-accelerated, advanced was petrochemicals aka plastics and fertilizers.Did you have another industry, industrial or manufacturing process or method in mind
>>65053934Good post
>>65053908Good post
>>65053795> Arent american military engineers fucking rock stars?No, but the Germans were. It went to shit in the US when the last Germans retired.
>>65053795Anyone anywhere was smarter in the 70s than nowadays. IQ only increases when humans have a need for it, it's the reason europeans have an higher IQ than africans, and why even in african countries, those population where the enviroment requires more work to survive have an higher IQ than those tribes who never have a winter and where food is always available. There is a ceiling on this since if the enviroment is too harsh then you can only survive like an animal, like abbos in Australia. This is the same that is happening nowadays where everything is already sorted out, and tools like computers, phones etc do everything for you so you're raised in an enviroment where critical thinking and problem solving (main forces behind IQ development) are not stimulated. A nigger from africa who had to figure out everything by himself in life but still had access to proper education would most likely have an higher IQ than your average zoomer who spends his days vaping and doing tiktok dances, even without accounting for the inherent racial IQ setback. So yeah, an aircraft engineer from the 70s if he were to be given the same tools available to a current zoomer engineer would perform much better.
>>65053974Name one German expat that worked on the F15.
>>65054504Then why did people in the 1970s do worse on every single repeatable test of intelligence than people do today?
>>65054536>Then why did people in the 1970s do worse on every single repeatable test of intelligence than people do today?Flynn effect only applies to immature brains, mature IQ has dropped a lot over the last 150 years. The theory is that increased amounts of artificial lighting generates more growth hormone release leading to earlier maturing. It would also lead to earlier puberty and taller people. Which is exactly what we see.
>>65054536Because nowadays more people have access to education, which raises the IQ and gives us better reporting. It's the same discourse as people thinking autism rates have increased, while the reality is that we're doing better screening, testing and have a better understanding of the subject. Your grandpa who was obsessed with trains and wasn't able to hold a conversation with anyone that wasn't his wife wasn't "quirky" but autistic.
>>65053854The wages just aren't there. The best and the brightest will always go into finance in the 21th century.Actually building things is second rate work, manipulating money is where it's at.
>>65053854This highlights your post. Engineers in america should make more on avg than lawyers do. Its completely backwards
>>65053863They were widowmakers bc the weight of the engine behind the rear wheels makes them unpredictable when pushed to the limits of traction. The limits of the gt2 and rwd only 911s were very high but once you get to the limits you have to be on point. The way porsche has made this issue better is by providing 4wd to its high performance 911s like the turbo. purists can still get rwd 911s if they want but personally i would much rather have the increased control of a 4wd 911 turbo
>>65053951Where would you put the starting point?
>>65054533Germany is basically to engineering and physics what Jesus Christ is to christianity. Most of the building blocks that led to well engineered products both before and after ww2 were created by germans.
>>65054559Why lie? The Flynn Effect is observed across basically all demographics. Your world view is factually incorrect and you should unfuck yourself.>>65054565I don't necessarily disagree, but this is not an argument that supports that retard's assertion that people are actually becoming less intelligent and intellectually capable.
>>65054589This will change in a true free market tho. Engineering is much more valuable to society than gambling on stocks. Im not saying investment isnt important, but its not as important/valuable as engineering
>>65054654In peacetime the money is in fucking with stocks. In wartime the money is in government manufacturing contracts. The finance bros are trying to do perma peacetime econonomics while having low-mid intensity conflicts.
>>65054651I think both of you are wrong. The avg intellectual potential of humans (potential) probably hasnt changed much. Even if there is still a selection pressure in the human species towards higher iq, you wont see gains for thousands of years. Stupid ppl tend to make just as many babies as smart ppl (maybe even more).
>>65054661Interesting point sir.
>>65054668>I think both of you are wrong.I think you've incorrectly assumed my position, because I basically agree with you, notwithstanding nutrition and epigenetics. IMHO properly fed and raised humans are roughly as smart today as we were 2500 years ago and at all the points in between. We score better on tests of intelligence because those tests are more closely adjacent to the problems we routinely encounter than to the ones that people further back in time encountered, but either way the better test scores are extremely strong evidence against that other anon's retarded viewpoint that people today are unusually stupid.
>>65054644So none, just a picture of the second operational jet aircraft (after the Meteor) and the worst one ever made, along with some vague but still clearly incorrect claims. Got it.For the record, Germany was always behind the pave set by America and the UK in every area of aviation theory and practice. Paperclip yielded absolutely nothing useful in aeronautical engineering, because the allies were so far ahead on aerodynamics, engines, materials science, construction techniques and operational concepts that everything the Germans had with wings was utterly obsolete.Also, kill yourself wehraboo.
>>65054749so true bestie, also the US OF A went to the space all by itself and needed 0 (nada) help from nazi science
>>65054651I'm sorry but that's not an argument. Just because I schooled you, it doesn't mean that you have to be salty about it.
>>65053795The threat of Nuclear Armageddon™ was a huge motivation to have a gigantic budget for trying lots of different designs and concepts such as the XB-70 or the Sea Lance. American engineers have the opportunity to try everything. They even tested a tomahawk missile with a torpedo on the end and a tomahawk that could deploy sonobuoys. They would have cut the response time and reliability of asw forces by more than half. America has done cool shit that we will never know about and they probably came up with it before your parents could say duck and cover. It's not about IQ points, it's about political will.
>>65054651>Why lie? The Flynn Effect is observed across basically all demographics.Yeah as it should be since everyone has indoor lightning now. I mean you are proof that adult IQ has dropped enormously over the last 150 years. Do you know that white girls used to have their first menstruation at the age of 15-16 120 years ago ? Now its 12. The combination of lighting causing increased release of growth hormone and huge amounts of food means fast maturity and bigger brains at a younger age buuut the problem is dropping adult IQ.
>>65053795>Porsche 911s were genocidally good in the 70s and 80s, but if you look at the garbage american cars from that era, its really astonishing how futuristic our military equipment was during that time. The f15 wouldnt look out of place in 2070, let alone 1970.either youre autistic or an AI trying to be autistic first off as far as fighter jets go, the f15 started a trend and when it debuted it was not average looking in any sensesecondly youre really just gay, sure a porsche is a nicer car than a chevelle, but mechanically speaking the air cooled flat sixes arent better than anything detroit made. furthermore cars like the corvette or anything touched by caroll shelby easily drive as good if not better than its euro counterparts thing is, different design philosophy doesn't suddenly make a car bad or better than another. porsche still built cars for being mass produced and cheap as possible, they were not known to be reliable, and most didnt age gracefully. planes are not built to rust out in 5 years so customers have to buy a new one. like are you so retarded to not understand this?>>65053863lots of cars get bad reputations, people think rwd is bad in snow, its all gay bullshit hype from people who are stupid and dont know how to drive
>>65054843>I mean you are proof that adult IQ has dropped enormously over the last 150 years. Do you know that white girls used to have their first menstruation at the age of 15-16 120 years ago ? Now its 12.youre schizo as fuck to think artificial lighting hasnt always existed in the form of candles and lampsalso electric lighting by far and away isn't even close to ones the dozens of things that have changed since 1900, acting like you know the exact root cause sounds exactly like the nutty general from dr strangeloveget help before you hurt yourself or someone else mate
>>65053795Its not consumer tech it cant really be "bad".The f15 of today isnt really the f15 of yesteryear thoeverbeit
>>65053795The problem is that engineers and technical folks don't have nearly as much say in things as they used to. Now all the key decisions are made by accountants, salesmen, and nephire management types.
>>65053795Cocaine
>OLD THING GOOD!!!!Meanwhile everything new in technology is not only better in every measurable way, it is also cheaper. Weapons and aircraft included.
>>65053822>Aircraft are designed around specs that can be considered feasible with materials and techniques available, and as long as we have the best engines, best avionics etc we can think up and build the best stuff. As is said annoyingly everywhere all the time the Eagle was built to fight the Foxbat in the manner of "if we built the Foxbat ourselves this is what it could do" not even conceiving of how much shittier and heavier the real one really was and that it could nothing except destroy itself going too fast just to impress us. Which it did for a whilePlease stop repeating this BS (along with the one that the F15 had no AG capability). The MIG25 was a fast flying interceptor built in a different era, pricepoint and. set of requirements (mainly to patrol the huge Soviet airspace against bombers). Its development and the F15s are completely unrelated, except for this highly sensationalized story about how Americans thought it was some superfighter, when in fact US military intelligence understood the capabilities and limitations of that airframe, and the Soviets published quite a bit of technical knowledge on it in academia.And even if they didn't, the MIG-25 was in service for years and paraded on airshows while the F15 was being built - the US not having any idea would've been a colossal intel failure. I'm sure by 1970, most people reading airplane magazines knew more about the MIG25 than the designers of the F15 did according to this fairy tale.
>>65054559The Flynn effect is BS. the gains come from basically the percentage of population which was not expected to become office drones, but blue collar workers, and thus had no need and experience with large scale standardized testing and performed badly.The scientists and engineers are no smarter today than they were hundred(s) years ago.
>>65053795Do you think that your parents have higher IQ than (you)?
>>65053795yes.American engineers in past decades were taller, had a higher IQ, less obese and more European.
>>65054661>while having low-mid intensity conflicts.This is not the finance bros' fault. It's a hawkish party, and extremely hawkish party.
>>65054767>that's not an argumentYes it is. "Your argument proceeds from false premises. Here is your premise. Here is why it is false. Here is the correct premise." is the quickest form of valid counterargument out there, and the most useful when arguing with a schizo liar like you.The Flynn Effect is observed with equal power across children, teenagers, adults and even the elderly. This is extremely widely studied and reported. If your schizo world view has granted you special contrary insight hidden to everyone else then go and publish your research in reply to all of Flynn etc's studies dunking on them.
>>65054763You go girl! In a thread about airplanes generallt and F15s specifically, you pivot to rocketry like the girlboss you are!
>>65053795more whites, fewer blacks and DEI bullshit
>>65055083this and gets back to my post >>65053890
>>65053795>were 70's engineers smarter?No. The major difference today is the firms back then were still all run by experienced engineers and military acquisitions guys were actually experienced aviators. Today, companies and acquisitions are all run by finance faggots who drive design choice decisions based primarily on profit margin (which used to be capped at 12% net) and cross-compatibility (aircraft used to be purpose-built, with the main exception being the F4, which everyone recognized as a fucking shit-show nobody wanted to repeat). If the acquisitions assholes quit demanding multi-role/multi-service bullshit requirements and the finance assholes got the fuck out of the way, let the engineers get their groove on and figure out the numbers after the design is complete, we'd be making excellent shit again. Instead of that fucking F35 embarrassment watching A10 crews laughing in their faces as the dust off their ancient shit that everybody wants to shitcan.
>>65053908Based
>>65057427This anon gets it.(and see #6503890)>[military] aircraft used to be purpose-builtCorrect and this gets to an even broader point of how mil procurement and allocated federal spending budgets drove the mil services, in tandem with Pentagon-MIC borg-ization, to ask for a Toyota Camry family sedan solution for each mission. It needs to be able to do a), b), c), d), e), f)... x), y) because: it also has to be able to *fully replace* and supplant the three other airframes for separate tasks that we can't afford to purchase anymore (because fuck you) so then we end up with the Super Hornet heinous abortion. Or V-22 used to """"replace"""", kek the C-2 for carrier onboard logistics. Et ceteraAll of this stuff needs to be viewed in the historical/budgetary context timeline evolution, particularly the post-Vietnam, 1980-and-later one. It all changed. It's not necessarily solely or in particular an 'engineering' or 'do we have the technology' question per se as the OP is framing it. More about procurement, contractor super-specialization, financial and bureaucratic grift and ossification/constipation/ivory tower myopia of military service doctrine "we need this because ______ here's our theoretical academic war college study proving why it absolutely must be built and adopted for future battlespace gigasuperiority"It's blinders-on groupthink, on an institutional billion-$$$$$$ scale.(also see that satire comedy movie about the M2 Bradley IFV for some of these post-1970s themes)
>>65058170>Unironically recommending Pentagon Wars as an argument in the age of ongoing proven Bradly dominanceNever gonna make it.
>>65056400>no reading comprehensiondoesn't surprise me.
>>65054565>autism rates have increased,not really. Many people, I would say even a majority just lie about having it because 1. you get social & academic advantages 2. you get a legal meth prescriptionThat's not even considering the gamification of the entire medical industry to maximize profit, which is a whole nother conversation.
>>65058866Anon, you're a retard who can't fucking read. Reread my post.
>>65058866To add to that anon, it is such a nebulous label that almost everybody with some personality quirk can be slandered with it
>>65053795They weren't, it was the cold war and they were told the project had to be fast but cost didn't matter.When you tell engineers today the same thing you get the X-37 but it's too classified for us to know what is actually does.
>>65054565This, when ever retards claim "people weren't autistic back then" I point out the guys that collected hub caps or had a model train room were autistic.Pic extremely related.
>>65059089>she respected his ambition and single-mindedness but declined his proposal.
>>65058962what? reread my post u dipshit. that is exactly what I am saying. There isn't more autism, the reporting just has increased dramatically. Not because it's more accurate but because it's extremely easy to lie about and everyone gets a benefit. Doctors and big pharmacy gets money. The "patients" get a legal upper/downer prescription and social perks for having a "disability". Theres for example college scholarships only available to people with a certain supposed disability. So if you could why wouldn't you lie to get those benefits?
>>65059133and same anon here, to clarify - no your grandpa wasn't le heckin quirky autismo epic chungus. he was/is just a normal man. idk if it's Hollywood or social media causing people to think that anyone who isn't as sauve as James Bond must be autistic or have a disability.
>>65059140It's both, there were undiagnosed autists decades ago and there are people faking it for meth now.
>>65053854Love of the game. Without getting into details, I'm convinced Boeing has one guy in charge of all the legacy F-15 stuff today and he's afraid to make changes. I've gotten to work with hand drawn blueprints from the 60's and 70's, it's really insane what they did back then.
>>65059140>>65059144Given that you apparently don't know the difference between autism and ADHD I'm not inclined to take either of you too seriously.
>>65053795The F-15, and F-16 are basically perfect. Both have been refined over what 50 iterations? Nobody questions their value.
>>65053795Yes, I believe there's research that average IQ in the US peaked around that time period before the affects of post scarcity, modern medicine saving lives, and both social and legal disgenic selection pressures (low IQ and obesity predicts higher fertility in the US) really took hold.In every field I think there was more cross-over skill and people coming from different skilled backgrounds instead of out-right specialization which always leads to greater innovation.>>65053854>underpaid engineersI agree. High IQ people from privileged backgrounds would more likely select against engineering especially if it's working for someone else. Really smart driven ones are going to open their own firms / take contracts to build things for industry and make retirement levels more money quickly.
>>65058170You're right, in that the rot is deep. I spent a great deal of the best years of my engineering career in the middle of the Future Combat Systems fiasco. Ended up finally getting RIFed after years of pushing-back on stupid "kitchen sink" requirements that resulted in useless trash that cost a fortune and did nothing particularly well. 95% of everything in that sweeping War College brilliant requirements package ended up being shelved after becoming an endless money-pit even Congress couldn't justify any longer. Bitter pill for those of us who can say "told you so" so many years later while watching the same stupid shit methodology being used today. And every time we lose a Little Bird, C-130, Chinook, or any other mission-critical airframe that "can't" be replaced (because fuck you), we all just cringe.
>>65059276they are both equally BS (in 95% of cases).
>>65053795>were white people smarter than DEI peopleYes, and they still are
>>65054589>The best and the brightest will always go into finance in the 21th century.This is simply not true. The brightest people will go into whatever challenges their intellect the most, as they'd get bored to death doing something else, even if it's better paid.
>>65054589"Let the goyim deal in the real world."-Jeffrey Epstein
>>65058278the footnote remark that rustled (You)r jimmies was about that movie being illustrative of -->how the MIC *operates and behaves overall* in context of the main body of my post, it wasn't """"""""""an argument"""""""""""" (for or about anything, Nothing to do with the M2 Bradley weapon specifically per se that's irrelevant).>'Unironically'back to plebbit (and see above) brainlet.
>>65059657>the rot is deepwas the primary point of my post, thanks (for fighting the fight) and glad you get it anon
>>65059751Wrong.at top ranks of every business, industry, institution, project, and government/state, are incompetent low-IQ bumbling and otherwise maladjusted / mal-prioritized persons.It's not a merit based society or heirarchy (heirarchies) of corporations and 'market' of product competition.>financeThe world has been taken over by banking and finance that is the most powerful entity steering what 'companies' that 'manufacture' things, do today. Hedge funds run the world in other words.Look at (for random example) firearm companies and the LLCs that own their assets, it's all about hedge fundsIf ? you want to be at the top of the top of the pyramid and make the most money.Also look at the worthless dreck being produced today as 'new technology' and manufacturing. AI is a gigantic financial boondoggle, nothing to do with 'improved technology' (Yes there are tiny select applications for AI tech just like any other electronic-computer innovation of the past century. That's not what's going on, all the hype)It's a top-heavy "business model" run by hedge funds. That's modern 21st century corporatism, it is totally Financialized (<--the puppetmasters of it all), they're making speculative debt instrument bets and wagers all along. It's all about manipulation and derivatives, that's all that matters. Not about the corp or its own output/product, "market superiority" of that: Nobody cares about product or the 'tech' itself. All about running off with the biggest bag of cash, asap.Major corporations, the FAAANG, S&P500 are spending most of their profits—no, not on manufacturing capital improvements of their own output—on stock buybacks. To please their own portfolios and those of top shareholders in the upcoming three or four quarters<--Beyond that? Who caresIt's all about financial, what drives it. Nobody gaf about what they're even making, 'their product' may as well not even exist at all. This is the global Financialized economy today.
>>65060036>at top ranks of every business, industryYou're talking about management, not the talent. And the management abosolutely are selected by merit. It's just merit for making money, not merit for making good airplanes or whatever else.>The world has been taken over by banking and financeYes. Those are the people in charge. But it doesn't invalidate anon's point about intellectual people seeking out whatever field challenges them and stimulates their interest.
>>65060136>the talentObviously talented and objectively smart people seek challenge, reward and find niches (or start/command their own operations) within any industry. That's not what's being discussed itt or what the OP even implied let alone stated.>management abosolutely[sic] are selected by merit*Bullshit* and totally wrong. Laughably and pathetically so.>merit for making moneyNot even that. The global post-1970s Financialized economy has absolutely nothing to do with that, no 'merit' involved at all whatsoever.It's beyond 'capital [aka might] makes right' <--that was the paradigm from 1890-1979.(You) don't understand how the modern 21st century world actually operates. Management 'knows what they're doing'? kek
