In WW1 we started with fixed defenses, countered by artillery spam, then we moved to the elastic defense to counter atillery spam.Subsequently in WW2 we developed the mobile defense, where a mobile armored reserve was held nearby waiting to counterattack the enemy.Since then there hasn't been any real changes, Cold War era doctrine all the way up to the start of the Ukrainian invasion of 2022 have largely stayed the same, just more effective, an elastic defensive line and a mobile reserve was the main tactic used thoroughly most of this conflict even.But now there's the claim that a new method has been developed, the availability of highly attritable drones have enabled the creation of a transparent killzone where everything is seen and hit with precise and deadly strikes.The question is, can we say that these new developments mark the beginning of a real shift in doctrine and what does that mean for future procurement of equipment and development of new training methods?Is the mobile reserve dead? Do we still need an outpost line?
>>65062815>new thing is just the old thing but gayAlways
This is just no man's land, isn't it?
>>65062815These are the perfect answer to drones.Flak towers set up with M2 sentry turrets, radars, microwave systems or lasers, maybe a few containerized VAMPIRE systems.As long as you can keep them fed, nothing will damage the actual tower.
>>65062858I don't doubt that they could be effective, but that's just another defensive asset, we don't have a problem with defense now, it's the opposite, also they might warrant the use of something heavier like JDAMs equivalents or even a ballistic missile, so I'm not sure if they really that useful in this context.
>>65062858>nothing will damage the actual towerI bet a FAB-9000 would do something. Highly mobile, attritable platforms are the way.
>>65062837Infiltration tactics were developed to deal with the problem of firepower to cross the so called no man's land, the main thing is that you could infiltrate a force with enough combat power to accomplish their objectives, even up to very recently that was possible, the claim is that he new doctrine allows for 24/7 omnipresent survaillance and precise strikes, the delay between detection and strike is short and getting shorter, so you can't hope to infiltrate and concentrante any meaningful force beyond that line.
>>65062888checkedand yeah, that's on me for not finishing reading through the wiki article lol
>>65062815Not the start but rather it further sements a change that's been hard to swallow since the early 00s, the transparent battlefield. Satelites and surveilence drones already made it so you know what's happening everywhere, the influx of cheap quadrocopters just made it so you get that information quicker.
>>65062858Need to put in a HIMAD system to contest aerial bomb attacks against the tower.>>65062884CEP +/- a city block so several would be needed to even hit the thing in the first place. It'd suck to deal with aviation bombs but that's what the SAM part of it would be for.
>>65062815>Ukranians and Russians are retards >Thus everyone is retarded Friendly reminder that the Ukranian summer offensive failed because they ignored the explicit advise of NATO planners by dividing their forces sending half to Bahkmut and dividing the remaining half into two axis of attack thus depriving their forces of the mass required to punch through the Russian defensive belt. These people are idiots, but they are winning because the Russians are fucking retarded
>>65063145Every single conflict we're seeing has drones being a seismic game changer. In the question of predictive truths, we can either believe in what is explicitly in front of us or in the equivalent of 2-more-weeks-coulda-woulda-shoulda theoreticians like you.When the shiite shits were slinging drones at us we didn't have some non-retarded wunderwaffle on hand to bat away the highly attritable drones. We had to tank them on the face, abandon bases, or flee out of range on our ships. So we finally have practical field examples of what happens when not just a first rate country but THE first rate military in all of human history encounters this new variable and we get slapped around same as everyone else.It might change in the future if we speed run drones but spare us with the tedious "Hurp durp russians and ukrainians are just retards herp derp we can still fight like it's 2012". It is proven now that we cannot.
>>65063163Iranian drones were not, in fact, game changers. We lost less men than when we invaded Grenada. We lost less aircraft than when we liberated Kuwait. We also flew 12,000 sorties. You're retarded. Go away.
>>65063163>we can still fight like it's 2012We literally just did.
>>65062815I don't think near as much has changed as we think. After WW2, everyone was so quick to proclaim that WW1 style trench warfare dead and then only 5 years after we found ourselves in Korea with static lines again. About 30 years after that we had the Iran Iraq war once again with years of stalemate and the long trench lines. Now Ukraine. Trench warfare and static lines is just what happens when momentum is lost and armies have the time to really dig in. Ukraine and Russia were cold war for years before 2022 and spent that time building defenses. After the run on Kyiv failed, it is no wonder stalemate happened so quickly in the east of Ukraine and before the drone spam started in earnest too. The Ukraine may have showcased a bunch of new weapons but I don't think it fundamentally changed how it is fought. If there was not a single drone was used in this war, I'd still expect mostly static lines.
>>65063163>So we finally have practical field examples of what happens when not just a first rate country but THE first rate military in all of human history encounters this new variable and we get slapped around same as everyone else.That wasn't the problem with Iran, the problem with Iran is that this wasn't a "war" it was an American bombing campaign and America is not used to bombing campaigns where the enemy can bomb back to such a degree. We got a taste of it in Gulf War 1 with Iraq and its Scuds, but now the capabilities available of the third world has gotten cheaper and more accurate since then. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_strikes_on_Saudi_ArabiaThe real issue is that America tried to dip its toe in the water but weren't willing to dive right in. They didn't call up a half million troops and roll over Iran in a proper invasion like Iraq. They hoped that if they just deleted enough things Iran would say uncle.It's like with North Vietnam. They were unwilling to conquer the country in fear of pissing off China so they just bombed it. North Vietnam was undeterred and just kept raising new units and sending them south. Iran is not connected to anything so they did the same thing with missiles and lawnmower drones.
>>65063168>We lost less men than when we invaded GrenadaWell we didn't actually Invade Iran
>>65063168I'd fucking hope you lost less people conducting an air campaign than a ground invasion, anon.
>>65063168And all you accomplished was...*checks notes*reopened a strait that was already opened, but now Iran will make billions every year by charging a toll
>>65062858Russia has already used ICBMs without nukes in Ukraine, you can pack that tower with all the AA you want but it would be still get obliterated by hypersonics because its static It could also be fucked by rocket assisted artillery if its relatively near the front
>>65064857Russian """hypersonics""" are trivially easy to shoot down because they're simple ballistic threats the same type the Germans had in WW2. They don't have HGVs or anything that can maneuver.
>>65062815I guess i just dont see much of a change in the grand scheme aside from shorter kill chains which are available to both sides. It still results in troops probing for weaker areas in the grey zone, areas it is easiest to infiltrate through. You will still need reserves to follow up on any sectors that become penetrated.
>>65064857ICBMs made to carry nukes are not particularly accurate anon.
>>65062858Germans needed hundreds of literal slaves to build these how the fuck do you think a meaningful number of these would be built inexpensively?Shit even in WW2 these things were not the majority of AA batteries. I've been to Augarten, there's like 4 towers to cover all of Vienna. I bet they did almost fucking nothing against hundreds of allied bombers massing overhead.
>>65063145And that fuck up can't be partly bless on politicians in Ukraine and the west demanding fast results that look good in the news whole military said that they do not have the manpower out equipment for it.
>>65063145This is a completely incorrect characterization of events btw, unless you're implying they should have rotated defending units out of Bakhmut and let it fall, which is an opinion so retarded that not even the vatnigs push it
>>65063145um ukraine has never ever EVER made a mistake. dont you dare say that
>>65063168American drones have been a game changer. Imagine if MQ-9 and RQ-180 existed in WW2.
>>65062837Always has been.
>>65063181There are no trenches in Ukraine anymoreTrench warfare is obsolete. The frontline is now 15km wide gray zone with drone operators in hidden dugouts monitoring the entire frontThey used to need 100 men to guard 1km of frontline. Now only 9 men are sufficient to do the same job
>>65062892Can we somehow improve trenches? Closed to tunnels, fewer open areas?
>>65063145>>65065017a NATO army with all its supporting assets could do it, UA didn't have F-16s, ATACMS, not enough fire support assets to generate the combat power needed, it would have been a major disaster, whole units would be trapped behind enemy lines and destroyed.
>>65065246There are still defensive positions made up of trenches and dugouts, just not contiguous trench lines.
>>65062815The doctrine for non-retards is>impassable buffer zone>obliterate enemy economythen you incentivize the local population to remove their regime and if they don't they just stay poor forever. Still a victory
>>65064990>nooo not Bakmutyou do realize that Bakmut fell anyways?
>>65065904>picerelunironically: why haven't we seen large scale smoke usagei saw german Rocket arty footage from ww2 and a couple of them saturated what looked liked a 5km long area with smokeor am i overestimating the effect smoke has one drone cameras?
>>65065950just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not used, I've seen it sometimes, but smokescreens are temporary and not something interesting that people will go out of their way to film
>>65065960>just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not used, true but i've literally never seen it being used
>>65065965
>>65065965>>65065965
>>65065971thanksseems like it could work if used en mass
>>65062815Cappy Army talking about emerging tactics in Ukraine around 18:00https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCfzwH4vZwY
>>65065977>seems like it could work if used en mass>if used en massThis part is absolutely important. I remember reading an interview with a drone operator in early 2023 or during the summer of 2022 in which he saw the russians using a few smoke generators close to a river which spiked his interest and flew over the area in which he saw russians laying pontoon bridges. The area was then hit by artillery he guided and the river crossing failed. The ironic part is that if the russians had not used a small number of smoke generators then there is a good chance the river crossing would have worked since the drone operator was not looking at that area at all since he was covering a very large sector by himself. It could have worked if the russians used smoke generators along the whole frontline, even in areas in which no river crossing is happening but they chose the worst option which is using a few smoke generators at the river crossing point only which drew attention.>>65065981B-but drones are going to replace everything. It cant just be that modern warfare is still combined arms warfare only with drones added to the mix!?
>>65066038>The ironic part is that if the russians had not used a small number of smoke generators then there is a good chance the river crossing would have worked since the drone operator was not looking at that area at all since he was covering a very large sector by himself. It could have worked if the russians used smoke generators along the whole frontline, even in areas in which no river crossing is happening but they chose the worst option which is using a few smoke generators at the river crossing point only which drew attention.This is why officers should study mitary history, feints and demonstrations are basic requirement for that kind of operation.
>>65064990>This is a completely incorrect characterization of events btwIts exactly what happened as reported by NYT. >>65065904No, if they had mass they could have punched through. Thats the whole point of mass. Its a blunt instrument.
>>65066071>No, if they had mass they could have punched throughyesIFbut they didn't. because russia has the numerical advantage since late 2022plus they still would have needed to blow up the crimean bridge at the same time
>>65066071>No, if they had mass they could have punched through. Thats the whole point of mass. Its a blunt instrument.If the Russians which had far more resources available to them didn't manage to achieve major breakthroughs through mass, then the Ukrainians wouldn't be likely to succeed either, it's easy for military planners that have never experienced real modern battlefield conditions to come up with those Cold Era plans, they aren't the ones that will deal with the consequences of failure.
>>65066080>but they didn't.Yes, because they ignored NATO planners advice and sent half their force to Bahkmut and then divided the remaining half along two axis of attack. Holy shit, circular conversation much? >>65066085NATO planners had effectively run the war up until that point. Get your head out your fucking ass. >but the Russians are shit Yes.
>>65062858Artillery rains on your static tower and destroys it, now what?
>>65065950Drones have thermals as a stock feature while most infantry, especially on the Russian side do not.
>>65063286The strait isn't even fucking open, 9 ships in total have passed since the "ceasefire" was declared
>>65062888>Infiltration tactics were developed to deal with the problem of firepower to cross the so called no man's landguess what tactics the Russians developed last year to counter the Ukrainian drones>>65062815no, it's still WW1 all the way in Ukraine, except for the EW war which you haven't discussed
>>65065938Bakhmut was also the end of Wagner, which was previously the best performing part of the Russian forces.
>>65064876Holy reading comprehension, we are not talking about their supposed hypersonic missiles we are talking about ICBMs those are hypersonic and virtually impossible to intercept >>65064927They hit dead center of infraestructure when they used them in western Ukraine
>>65066038>This part is absolutely important. I remember reading an interview with a drone operator in early 2023 or during the summer of 2022 in which he saw the russians using a few smoke generators close to a river which spiked his interest and flew over the area in which he saw russians laying pontoon bridges. The area was then hit by artillery he guided and the river crossing failed. The ironic part is that if the russians had not used a small number of smoke generators then there is a good chance the river crossing would have worked since the drone operator was not looking at that area at all since he was covering a very large sector by himself. It could have worked if the russians used smoke generators along the whole frontline, even in areas in which no river crossing is happening but they chose the worst option which is using a few smoke generators at the river crossing point only which drew attention.This >>65065974seems like it would be far more effective than this>>65065971
>>65063206lol the cope out of you retards is insane
>>65063145how is ukraine winning exactly? the current frontline is much closer to what russia wants (russian control of crimea and the donetsk, lugansk, kherson and zaporozhia regions) than to what ukraine wants (1991 borders)
>>65069009What specific point in that post do you disagree with.
>>65063206Ayatollah and his wife and children were killed lmaoPost American carriers sunkPost American SAM teams getting obliteratedPost American cities getting clogged with ash as countless babies and elderly within suffocate to death.Get the fuck off my board, /pol/-skins
>>65069065>the current frontline is much closer to what russia wants(the complete annexation of Ukraine, the entire population raped and gulaged, a shared border with collaborationist states in hungary and transnistria)No, I'd say Ukraine is winning.
>>65070180Oh well when you move the goalposts with 0 evidence like that, it makes total sense. My bad.
>>65069065Ukies are gaining ground and putin is no closer to ending the war in a way he is satisfied with than he was 4 years ago
>>65066212You would be surprised at the resistance of reinforced concrete fortifications
>>65069065>how is ukraine winning exactly?If the attacker makes no meaningful progress in a war, the defender is winning
>>65069460Be ready to post inevitable American concessions from the peace talks
>>65070210>Be ready to post inevitable American concessions from the peace talks>he says as nothing came out of the recent peace talksNot that Anon but this just aged like milk lol!
>>65070202>Ukies are gaining groundnot overall>putin is no closer to ending the war in a way he is satisfied with than he was 4 years agorussia successfully created a land bridge to crimea, cut ukraine off from the sea of azov, and then integrated its new territories for 4 years straight.>inb4 russia is winning too slowlyslowly gaining ground at a high cost (what Russia is doing) is still better than slowly losing ground at a high cost (what Ukraine is doing)>>65070208>when you lose 20% of your land, you win
>>65063286>charging a tollbrown.
>>65063206forget the troops, the bombing itself was half-assed and weak. for iraq they had 6 carrier groups and 100,000 sorties in a month, now they had 1 carrier group and 11,000. that's weak. israel, which is barely the size of NYC, outbombed the US in sorties. and did FAR more damage as far as the reports go.imho the generals who planned this intervention should go to jail or be outright shot.
>>65070191Yet here you are parading the Russian's currently moved goalposts of "we just want the left bank of the dnieper bro"You're not fooling anyone
>>65070324Fooling? What am I trying to fool people of? Is that not their stated goal of the war? Why are you so pig-headed?
>>65070327the original stated goal was to "demilitarise and denazify Ukraine"Four years in the Ukie DIB is VASTLY larger and more effective than it was before the war and azov has been directly integrated into the ukie armed forces which continue to fight and win in the field.In just the last few weeks alone they've liberated ground that took the Russians months, sometimes years of continuous, ludicrously casualty intensive assaults to seize at just a tiny fraction of the cost. They've gone from having almost no deep strike capacity whatsoever to waging an ever escalating strategic bombing campaign thousands of kilometres into the Russian heartland and are now actually outproducing the Russians in several key systems, notably one way attack dronesPutins stated objectives from the start of the war have failed decisively.
>>65070341How much territory in square km has Ukraine list and how much has Russia gained? I'm curious
>>65070357I don't have exact figures because the ukie MoD isn't giving details on their offensive actions and the russians went radio silent as soon as they started losing ground
>>65070364Surely someone would know what the current front line is?!
>>65070357>BUT THE LINES ON MAPSI bet you think the US won Vietnam politcally because the Us shot more vietkongs than they lost GIs.
>>65070382Wait huh? Did you have a number or..? What are you replying to me for if you don't have an answer to my question. Let me guess, American, lower states, over 250 lbs, over 40 years of age
The territory Russia has gained in Ukraine since the Izyum/Kherson offensives (so Autumn 2022) have not really altered the strategic situation. Ukraine has been pushed back, but not routed or broken. And it's been expensive in terms of manpower. Ukraine still has a large problem of Russia dug in on a large swathe of their land, but places like Bucha makes it clear this is a war of survival for Ukraine, and keeping the Russians to localised advances and now beginning to nibble back some land here and there, while also growing more confident in strategic drone attacks like at St Petersburg, is respectable for being the smaller defenders. Whether they can keep it up until Xeno's Russian Military Collapse arrives, nobody knows for certain, but I think even if Russia eventually takes all of Ukraine it can only be described as pyrrhic.
>>65070385Finally a respectable fucking post on /k/
>>65070385so when's Russia collapsing, next summer or the summer after?
>>65070416I have no clue, there's a reason I referenced Zeno (and forgot the right spelling). Objectively the soviet era stockpiles have dwindled, and we hear reports of companies and universities being given quotas for army contracts, and these are signs of barrel scraping. But I think the political will to continue the war and clamp down on home front dissent is too subjective to quantify or give an accurate timetable. It will always last longer than you think, until one day it doesn't. The only thing that would make me consider a timeline would be Putin's loss of power, which again feels like it won't hapoen, until one day it does.
>>65070452>I referenced Zenoah I seeyeah I was a bit confused about that. now it all makes total sense
>>65070374I'm sure the respective belligerents high commands have a good idea, but they aint talking
>>65070416that's a good questionwhile its impossible to give an exact time frame, if previous collapses are anything to go for it will happen very slowly at first, then very suddenly all at onceIf Putin doesn't cut his losses and pull out of Ukraine it will happen eventually, and it may still happen even if he does
>>65070364Yeah yeah, we heard the same thing back in the 2023 summer offensive. I've learned my lesson. Complete silence after the first few days of gains that lasted for months for "operational secrecy", and it then it turned out they stalled the exact moment they stopped talking.
>>65070416so when is the 3 day long SMO ending? this decade?
>>65070385>Ukraine has been pushed back, but not routed or broken.so they haven't lost yet but are losing?>but places like Bucha makes it clear this is a war of survival for Ukrainefunny how Bucha-like massacres didn't happen in places where Azov didn't "liquidate collaborators"
>blogpostThe new doctrine has to go 'all in' on mobility, and even stretch logistics to create movement. The smallest unit allowable would be something like AFV's without any dismounts. I would just give up on foot infantry completely and have everyone inside of armor. >but whatabout'Tanks and AFV's in motion are faster than drones, and also less labor intensive.
>>65070531OK but why are the russians so silent?they were screaming from the rooftops when the took out that one abrams back in '23 yet we've heard nothing from them for a month nowno details from the ukies either of course, but we do occasionally get updates like Kupyansk being liberated and the Russians driven from the west bank of the Oskil
>>65073012>I would just give up on foot infantry completely and have everyone inside of armor.Jungles, forests, and mountains?
>>65072541May we see the Azov in Bucha?
Drones is just micro air power, and the solution to air power is air superiority. Just have enough density to complete BAI and deny enemy air ops.>>65062815>Is the mobile reserve dead? Do we still need an outpost line?outpost line is sensors and mines. mobile reserves is drones, artillery and counterattacking force.>>65073012>Tanks and AFV's in motion are faster than drones, and also less labor intensive.Reflect poor automation and networking of drone ops. Once developed, drone carrier can sustain high sortie rates while in motion and offensive momentum can be sustained.
>>65066387They hit a fucking field, anon
>>65073104We've already seen that strategy not work in Iran, drones are just too easy to hide and too quick to launch you cant strike them in time
>>65072541>still losingAs I said it's a war of survival. The strategic goal is to preserve the state and its people. The chosen strategy, somewhat necessary given they can't overpower Russia on the battlefield, is one of attrition. Make each Russian advance painful and expensive. In that framework the control of territory which doesn't enable breakthroughs, flankings or supply isolation doesn't contribute to the final score. It's really a battle of will, can Putin impose his will on his own society to keep enduring meatgrinder advances long enough to get Ukrainian will to break, or can Ukraine inflict enough damage to get Russians to give in or mass revolt? Nobody knows for sure, but I think such heavy handed censorship of the internet is being attempted from a counterintuititve feeling of vulnerability rather than strength. Get ahead of bad information before the public learns of it. There is a lot of tension within Russia, and we may be nearing the time where a random trigger can topple it. But we aren't there yet, so the contest of will continues.
>>65073228>The strategic goal is to preserve the state and its people. you should let Zelensky know. he still thinks that Ukraine's goal is to retake Crimea and force Russia to pay reparations. clearly you know better than he does>>65073074literally just look it up. or if you were here around April 1 2022, you'd remember how boasts of liquidating Russian collaborators in Bucha predated any reports of a massacre by about a day
>>65075088I did look it up, I found nothing even vaguely convincing, hence asking you to provide evidence for your claim.
>can Putin impose his will on his own society to keep enduring meatgrinder advances long enough to get Ukrainian will to break, the front doesn't affect civilians (except when some poor ukrianian gets snatched off the street by the TCC)really the only thing that affects civilians is the bombing attacks on civilian infrastructure, e.g. when ukraine launches a drone wave at russian oil refineries. this is a battle that russia will win, because russia has more drone production capacity, because russia doesn't need to hit as much as Ukraine (ukraine has fewer targets than russia) and because russian drones don't need to fly nearly as far due to ukraine being closer to the front.>>65075099skill issue
>>65070264>Anon is surprised that a nation next door to Iran can manage more sorties than the one sailing around the world Yeah man when we did Iraq we had far more national and international support. Welcome to side chase expeditions
>>65075147I can't even tell who's blockading who anymore.
>>65075150tyler durden is blockading media literacy
>>65062837Why didn't they just dig a trench across No Man's Land like in Over the Top?
>>65075150The one with the Navy.
>>65073221Aircraft density of tens and hundreds of kilometers per plane and can't even kill most of the TELs?MORE, MORE, at dozens if not hundreds sensors per kilometer, a single fire team gets hunted down.
>>65075147>>65075188Aged miserably.
>>65062858Hear me out guys.>Take shipping container>Reinforce with concrete>Build stairs sideways inside>Cut holes in top to shoot from>Use fuck huge crane>Tilt it onto the top of a D12>Obligatory thanks but me need no help>Seige towers are reborn>Moving (slowly but also accurate for aesthetic), drone proof, improved firing positions for troopsYou’re welcome
>>65062858>radars, microwave systemsWe're going to see microwave systems deployed that will overwhelm drones. None of this gay ukraine-russia war shit is going to last. It's important that western militaries adapt and bring detectors and dedicated SIGINT materiel with them but I refuse to believe the way these corrupt slavs are fighting is the future.>>65062888>the claim is that he new doctrine allows for 24/7 omnipresent survaillance and precise strikesWhich is bullshit, because we've seen Russian infiltrators time and time again and Ukrainians doing the same thing and even sending UGV's to overwhelm poorly defended or dug-in russian positions.>>65063145>thus depriving their forces of the mass required to punch through the Russian defensive beltProbably only part of the problem, everybody pretends like the Ukrainians are the most battle hardened troops to currently exist but I really don't see how a military which got a massive influx of equipment and funds from 2022 going forward (and took a lot of losses as well) is somehow best trained on new doctrine and all the equipment they received.
>>65073104>Implying nobody is going to fire up the jammers or even better SIGINT and vaporize anyone emitting to control their one-way drone-munitionsThere is such a large portion of drone warfare which is NEVER discussed in any detail or barely any details get published. Just people going "but muh fibre optics with 20km range". Everybody and their mother were already aware that radios could completely broadcast your position and that any first world military (US) could absolutely dunk on you. The fact we're seeing nothing about this signals cat-and-mouse game in Ukraine probably means it's a gigantic component in all of this because at its core its what allows these type of weapons to proliferate so heavily.
>>65062815>ww2 to 21st century was just the same retard>where everything is seen and hit with precise and deadly strikesSo like what we have had for decades with artillery, spotters, PGMs and UAVs?Nigger it's artillery with a camera made in someone's garage
>>65076346Drones on the front line don't come in waves, but dribble. Are you going to have a unit blasting the skies around the clock? Wouldn't that expose your anti drone microwave guns TM to anti radiation/radiation seeking weaponry?
>>65062888>>65066373idk if its really the same thing. they really didnt have much of an option back in ww1. nowadays its more like the russians, the chinese, north koreans don't really want to admit that their military sucks and they're doing human waves again so they will call it "infiltration tactics" or "deep battle" because muh face and so on
Long rage FPV drones are hitting enemy logistics and reinforces in the enemy rear area, if you give some thought to this, they are more effect than air interdiction and long range missile strikes like HIMARS, since they don't require enemy concentration or high value targets and can hit dispersed elements cost effectively, impacting enemy logistcs over a more extended period of time.
>>65077250Based, fuck them ruslims
War is won in the air. Ukraine could obviously never hope to contest the Russian air force but the Russians in turn proved too incompetent to be capable of dealing with its own air defences that Ukraine inherited which led to the slog you see on the ground. Exact same thing happened in WWII. Every Soviet counterattack in 41 and 42 was stopped in large part thanks to the Germans being able to call on neverending waves of massed bombers which Siberian yokels with 2 flying hours were powerless to stop as they got swatted out of the sky. Then the VVS got its shit together around 1943 and the rest is history. When the USAAF was unleashed, the whole of Germany became a battlefield without a single Allied soldier stepping foot on its territory. Now, America could flatten any country in the world by parking a single aircraft carrier off its coast. The only thing that can hope to save you is retarded zogged politicians ordering their obedient golems to pointlessly march around the desert while tribesmen take shots at them with rusty Kalashnikovs until American endurance is exhausted. Sure, drones might give us funny videos of mutts getting chased around by flying grenades but all they'll remain is a poor man's F-35. China can only hope to beat America in the field if they can manage to nullify the USAAF but remember that the Roman state fell apart before its legions did.
>>65063286>The IDF says we should keep bombing IranI bet they do, lol. I would just like to point out that there no way this anon would take an Israeli intelligence report at face value under any other circumstances than when he was trying to make a point about Hormuz that’s not even relevant anymore.
>>65076644>idk if its really the same thingit is, because neither side can attain the air superiority which has been the cornerstone of large scale combat operations since September 1939(or even 1937 if you consider the SCW, where the Germans were regularly doing combined-arms assaults)>their military sucks and they're doing human waves againit was effective enough for the Russians, last year
>>65077250That's rad
>>65070357Russia has gained thousands of kilometers of brand new border with NATO, great success
>>65080455>NATOis it even a thing? like, with turkey being the only capable army in continental europe?
>>65080455NATO has demonstrated that they are incapable of defending or winning wars
>>65080722They have? Where and when?
>>65080756Case in point
>>65080480>>65080722
>>65080803Where and when?
>When and where?
>>65081000Can you give an example?
>>65081209It would be quicker to name their successes
>>65081221So you can’t list any failures?
>>65063206Supreme inbred cope lol
>>65081232I'm waiting
>>65081272Waiting for what?
>>65081629So no examples of success then?
>>65080722>NATOyou misspelled USA
>>65081657Iraq and Kuwait. Korea
>Tomahawk:850 fired as of now, 25% of stock>jssamer:1000 fired as of now, 60% of stock,>PAC:400 interceptor as of now, 900 including fired by alies,25-75% depending on how you count it>thaad:198 fired, 40% of inventory>SM2,3,6,...:180
>>65062815Looks like mainstream media is beginning to pick up on the shift in battlefield momentum.Still no specifics, but we can now say with confidence that the russian spring offensive is no more thanks to Ukrainian advances>https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-04-16/ukraine-russia-invasion-war-drone-territory/106569536
>>65081722All complete and utter failures any else
>>65081900Serbia
>>65081900Not really
>>65065904Why doesn't Ukraine just blitz past them with all that armor?
>>65065911Yep this. Iran is not Afghanistan. They pose a threat to us because they have a massive economic capacity. But that also is a shitload of mouths to feed, and they can be turned into Afghanistan very easily. Its almost guaranteed since they're running out of water.
>>65070382Being in Vietnam stopped the rest of SEA go communist. Indonesia (An economy 3x the size of vietnam) was able to overthrow its own commie dictator because of this.You are a dumbass for trying to see it in black and white.
>>65070416It collapsed in 1991. It's a fucking failed state.
>>65062815I think it will make infiltration nearly impossible and make warfare a more static and prolonged affair.It is also important to remember that with precision, relatively long range strike capabilities becoming ubiquitous it will also become much more difficult to concentrate forces for a breakthrough or any serious offensive operation. SHORAD, air power, long range strikes and recon will become much, much more important as the means to degrade enemy assets to a point that allows you to move and utilize large formations, and defend your own assets so the enemy can't do the same to you.This of course presumes a Ukraine situation where neither side has the force to just run the enemy down before such a killzone can be established.
>>65085503>Iran is not Afghanistan. They pose a threat to us because they haveballistic missiles, a complete domestic nuclear supply chain, and enough uranium to make a crude nuke truck bombit's like a Hoi4 generic nation that went full nukes and nothing else
>>65063173And lost
>>65069460>Post American cities getting clogged with ash as countless babies and elderly within suffocate to deathTalking like russian shill
>>65066212Will interception systems be able to shoot down artillery shells the same way they do missiles and drones, or do shells just fly too fast?
in 10-20 years tops, AI and drone(battery) tech will advance so much that nations will field ballistic missiles filled with drones, launch them into the middle of enemy territory and just let them roam autonomously. just bombard entire swaths of land with hundreds of thousands of cheap drones that will form networks with eachother and attack with no user input, or lie dormant for weeks/months.screenshot this post
>>65070180putin doesnt want to gulag and rape the whole population, thats not why he started the war
>>65086320? It's what they have been doing in occupied territories
>>65070210So...where ayatolah?
>>65073012>Tanks and AFV's in motion are faster than dronesAre you thinking about rocket-assisted hovertanks or something?
