Thoughts on the new US Army 30mm grenade rifle?
Buy an ad, faggot.
Have they actually picked one now? If the Barrett won, I'm not surprised, though there were a lot of good entrants in those trials.Rheinmetal's entry wasn't strictly program compliant, being a normal 40mm, but its features and design looked extremely good to me in its own right.
I get it's supposed to be the primary weapon for a squad-level grenadier, but that person really needs to be equipped with some kind of micro PDW as a secondary. MP7, P90, some kind of ultracompact AR, something like that..
Wasn't /k/ shitting on China a couple years ago for making grenade rifles the centre of their infantry squads?
>>65065528The rheinmetall one looks so sick, I hope someone adopts it
>>65065558It's a stupid idea. 99% of the time in combat the grenadier is going to have his thumb shoved up his ass and he'll be 100% useless in close enough quarters.Support weapons are best kept on the platoon level to maintain flexibility both in the squads and how the weapon itself is deployed.
>>65065558/k/ has become accustomed to shitting on anything not American or Israeli, which is sad since America's weapons history is basically looking at other countries and saying, hey that's a meet idea let's make it 10 times better. Our greats advantage is that we don't automatically dismiss foreign ideas a inferior due to nationalism.
>>65065550They tried combining such a thing with the OICW project way back in the day, but there were some issues with that.>>65065558Because they use a smallbore grenade machinegun instead of any GPMG, which I feel is kinda misplaced.Something like a 25mm or 30mm GMG as a mounted weapon could be excellent, but on foot you're gonna be way limited to how much ammo you can carry for a weapon like that, there's a very real value in your machinegunner being able to carry hundreds and hundreds of rounds of 7.62mm, and any rando in the squad could carry an extra belt for him.
I'm glad they got rid of the dead-end idea that non-standard grenade launchers need to have a assault rifle attached to them, and wow, would you look at that, it just works.
>>65065582They should just carry and M4 as well, which is what they probably will end up doing. AT troops carry carbines as well as At weapons, no difference.
>>65065593>They should just carry and M4 as well, which is what they probably will end up doingPlease, think of their knees, for God's sake.
>>65065558/k/ will shit on anything not American. To be fair the ammunition requirement is a fair point, but how much ammo do you need when you can just fire a grenade and kill everything?
>>65065582Grenade spam through windows and doors is the optimal CQB method. Lawyers and optics whoring politicians are the only ones forcing us into this retarded (((HURR DURR WE NEED TO CLEAR DA ROOM DUURR))) mentality. This has been a solved problem for a century, simply grenade the room, failing that JDAM the fucker
>>65065597So sick of the knee meme, knees are 100% replaceable, firepower is not
>>65065572Yes. I have an enduring emotional attachment to the Milkor MGL, because I think it's cool that it's a big revolver, but damn, the Rheinmetall launcher just seems like a super solid weapon.>>65065583>Our greats advantage is that we don't automatically dismiss foreign ideas a inferior due to nationalism.Well yeah, looking at if someone else has a good idea is a good idea in itself, but that doesn't make a GMG as your main squad support weapon a particularly captivating idea.>>65065598That's an easy way to think if you know nothing about infantry combat. Grenades aren't a magical kill button, you also have to hit.Also, most shots you fire will not be trying to make a hit to kill, most shots you fire will be to suppress the enemy.The reason you have a guy with a weapon like an M240B or PKM with you is because he can suppress the enemy hard, and for a long duration, and he can suppress pretty far, and sometimes even take an occasional aimed shot/burst longer than you really could with a 5.56mm/5.45mm/5.8mm assault rifle or LMG.
>>65065605>Grenade spam through windows and doors is the optimal CQB method.And what do you do when the enemy is one room in, and can't be hit by the grenades you're shooting into windows?The infantry has to go inside, and at that point the grenadier is again useless.Same problem as going on the assault. How the fuck is the grenadier supposed to assault with his fireteam when he doesn't have a proper firearm?
>>65065605You'd think after decades of Hearts and minds failing people would realize the answer is war is always just more firepower. Afghanistan could have been easily won with more firepower
>>65065597Give them lighter weigh M4s without shit like quadrails on them I guess.Or maybe look at reviving the MagPul PDR.
>>65065619use the grenadier to blast holes in the drywall and send the drones in to mop up
>>65065582>he'll be 100% useless in close enough quarters.Just have a mag of buckshot grenades ready.
>>65065628>drywallFighting the second American civil war, huh?
>>65065619Why are you sending the grenadier in an assault squad, would you put the M240 at the front of a stack? It's a support weapon. By you logic we should ditch GPMGs because they suck at CQC
>>65065499It doesnt matter, he will die to a 100$ fpv drone
>>65065558it's a niche specialist weapon that will be difficult to fit into a soldier squad/platoon, so replacing their primary and cental arm - the machinegun - with one is still immensely stupid but thin skinned chinks will bitch about it regardless due to their deep inferiority and persecution complexes.
>>65065619If the building is that hard, somebody probably has a satchel charge, just throw it into the building like that one sheriff did during the MOVE bombing
>>65065582t. american whose idea of infantry combat comes from vietnam war movies
>>65065634M240s are in the weapons squad, on the platoon level, where support weapons belong.This fancy grenade launcher is envisioned to be deployed in the rifle squads.
>>65065651>t. chinksect who hasn't won a war in 300 years
>>65065499>It is your primary100% it'll get the launcher treatment and get strapped the back of some private called the grenadier when his actual job is to just hump it for the squad while he does regular rifleman things. When it's time to use it, the squad leader or whichever dickswinger can pull the fattest rank will yank it off him and start blasting, then toss it back to him once it's out of ammo or broken.
>>65065499The chode load
>>65065598>Grenade launchers are one-hit noobtubes that don't require excessive time on target :)Must be nice, thinking that engagements are one-and-done deals or that recon-by-fire doesn't exist like in his video games.
>>65065631You're right, corncrete will be much more fragile.
>>65065499>680fpsSigh... Not 1000.
>>65065735Wouldn't that kick like a mule?
>>65065656If only you could configure your platoon and equipment to match the mission
>>65065746You would need to know the details and demands of the mission beforehand to do so in an effective manner, which is not realistic.
>>65065499>that one faggot insisting people call it a bolterWhy are 40k tards always insufferable
>>65065735low velocity 40mm barely a third of that
>>65065499We 40k bolters now
>>65065765I swear that 40K trannies are like those liberals who compare everything from real life with Harry Potter.
>>65065765It literally is though
>>65065765>>65065771kek
>>65065771>>65065786Fuck off faggot
>>65065792Take a walk to cool off
>>65065755No it's pretty realistic to know the demands and details of a mission prior to setting out, that's called receiving orders, actually you usually have a pretty good idea of what you are going to do when you get a warning order. Like if you know you know the objective is a building, you can put your riflemen into assault squats and keep your grenadiers and machine gunners in a support squad. They can suppress the building while you assault squads approach it. This is pretty standard stuff if you allow your commanders to have independent thought and actions. This can be done at any level to, squad, platoon, company
>>65065794Real life isn't a video game, Timmy.
>>65065793Take a walk across a busy highway
>>65065558>65065558I'll shit on China and the US right now though the use case for the weapons seems different. In the Chink case it seems to be hyperspecialized for fighting jeetistanis in the mountains which does have some utility but its questionable if its worth the effort. In the Chink model they have clearly aimed for velocity above all else to ensure descent accuracy and range.In the American example it seems to just be another test bed. At worst its another XM25 but this time +5 so that the explosive charge isn't so anemic. And with much better electronics than twenty five years ago it might work but is unlikley to be worth it. At best they want to roll out a general purpose programable 30mm based on the existing 120mm program for use by various platforms against drones and this is the infantry version. Probably won't happen but it wouldn't be a bad idea.China's launcher is much less ambitious but is dumb only because of limited utility, it isn't bad.The US example may or may not be bad but if it was meant to be a universal solution to several requirements it could be a good idea, which means it will almost certainly be shitcanned and we'll be bitching for a decade.
>>65065499is that a famas?
>>65065499>>65065520
>>65065765But it pretty much is. Bitch
>>65065528>>65065808
The South Africans already made this with the Neopup PAW-20.>muh botlers 40k ecks deeAgain, already done. But you casual fucks don't know what you're talking about and flit in and out of /k/ at whim.
>>65065801Lmao this is hilarious, I'm really going to blow your mind now, with switched on commanders you can even reconfigure your platoon during different phases of the mission, so patrolling to the objective you keep you gunners and grenadiers dispersed throughout the squads to better react to enemy fire and ambush, then when you reach the objective you put them into a support squat to suppress the objective while the assuat squads assault. All of this can be put in your orders to your squad leaders. This is all apart of battle procedure. Competent armies don't just through troops into the fray with no Intel, plan or recon
>>65065817>and flit in and out of /k/ at whim.What kind of mentally ill person would want to be on /k/ all the time
>>65065839me
>>65065817Already mentioned in the bolter thread.https://vocaroo.com/147gSvgdJlgjI think the reason the chinks want that high velocity 40mm is so that the blast is viable at long range, it more immediately suppresses an enemy vs a machine gun figuring out its beatin' zone at that range, and they already have 40mm.I wonder if the American 30mm has any chance for being slung under an AR platform.
>>65065499So this is basically the XM25 but not absolute shit?>>65065641Is reddit really pretending like niggers weren't comically racist against the Vietnamese during the Vietnam War too ?Also, where's Nip, Chink, Dink, Churka, Jungle Nigger, Chigger, Paki, Pajeet, Nork, Sork, Slant Cunny, and Asiatic-Bolshevik suhuman?
>>65065499>>65065873Thread from last fall on the new grenade launcher:https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/64495933
>>65065499I thought the Rheinmetal one was cooler >>65065558Yes. I have to imagine its shills
>>6506549915ft kill radius is impressive what kind of tech are they using to achieve that kind of lethality in such a large space?
>>65065873central, south and pacific asians aren't allowed on r/aznmasculinity and the word chink would result in mass self mutilations of displayed publicly in there
>>65065873You forgot SEAmonkey.
>>65065499>>65065558Staged thread
>>65065585Can't any rando carry grenades for the grenadier?
>>65065651China got roflstomped by the Vietnamese btw.
>>65066092That's still gonna be way fewer. You're dramatically curtailing your roundcount with this approach no matter what, a GMG only really makes sense for a vehicle or tripod mount.
>>65065902The Rheinmetall launcher is cool as fuck, but being 40mm it was going to be completely unable to meet the program requirements for trajectory and muzzle velocity.It had to be flat shooting, fast moving, and low recoiling, so that you could basically fire it like you could a rifle.>>65065873The XM25 seemed like it was somewhat liked, but these larger bore launchers with more compact and advanced electronics should be much more effective at the same job.>>65065817These are larger bore. Also they may be looking at making these things function with airburst shells.>>65065739With a 30mm or 40mm projectile, yes.For comparison, Tony Neophytou's Neopup and iNkunzi have a muzzle velocity of 1000ft/s, but it's still a 1700gr 20mm grenade. For the Neopup, it's designed for the entire gun to recoil a substantial distance inside of its stock to use up that energy (which looks sick), and the iNkunzi is a belt-fed grenade machinegun which, best I know, have still only been tested for vehicle and tripod mounts.On the other end, Knight's Armament Corporation once experimented with a pump-action high-velocity 40mm grenade launcher, the EX41, which had no special recoil mitigation. Trey Knight described it as extremely uncomfortable to shoot, "feeling like you got punched in the face with every shot you fired.">>65065886I remember that one, it was a good thread.
>>65066148>XM25as some anons including yours truly agreed on the previous thread, the XM25 was somewhat unfairly given short shrift and ought still be with us today (MIC / procurement had other plans)
>>65065873>asian slurs>can't stop thinking about blacksyou have a problem anon
>>65065499We should've went with the SSW40
>>65065558Chinks replaced the machinegunner, the US is replacing the squad grenadier. You might want to consider why these are different
>>65065528It would be interesting to hear the backroom politics behind this program, because it really seems like everyone other than RM are going into it with the expectation that it will all be canned like the XM25 was (H&Ks absence is notable, guess they're still understandably bitter), so I wonder if a winner was already decided from the outset and everybody involved knows it. Very low effort upscaled AR10s in plastic shells. That break action to fit Pike rounds is so fucking smart and cool, like guided rounds are the very munitions that you arent going to be spamming so it doesnt matter if the dont fit in the magwell meaning smaller and lighter overall package; goddamn thats actual innovation. Then look at everybody else with their copied homework, if nothing else I expect more from FN.
>>65066929Isn't the HAMMR also being adopted by the Germs? That might explain why. Also, I agree it's the best one in practicality, but IIRC the army wants a smaller projectile.
>>65066929>break action to fit Pike rounds is so fucking smart and cool, like guided rounds are the very munitions that you arent going to be spamming so it doesnt matter if the dont fit in the magwell meaning smaller and lighter overall package; goddamn thatsRifle grenades basically, and what did we learn from that?Over/under M203 is superior because nobody likes having to stop firing to put a new thingamajig on and then have to take it off again
>>65065765>>65065771>>65065817>>65065851>Is that HECKIN CHUNGUS BOLTERINO!?The only good thing to come out of Warhammer is those very fuckable blue ayys
>>65066965Idk what you mean, it all uses the same breech. Its not a shot trap or anything.
>>65066969it didnt tho, hot tau are entirely an invention of fan asrtists. actual tau women are indistinguishable from men.
>>65066929pike rounds are garbage though
>>65066979He said fuckable blue ayys, not fuckable blue ayy women.
>>65066975>Idk what you meanLike I said:>nobody likes having to stop firing to put a new thingamajig on and then have to take it off again
>>65065499>>65065528>>65065613>i am... forgotten...
>>65067001Yeah, what do you mean by that? Theres no removable addon to fire them, you just load them directly into the breech. Its just theyre too long to fit in a regular mag, so the whole barrel tilts.
>>65065499I don't know why anyone is surprised tha this is the future of warfare. Turning your bullets into FPVs was always going to be the next step. Explosions are going to be more efficient and useful than magdumping at brush until your M4 melts and you start blaming the military for giving you 400 rounds of 5.56 instead of 2000 rounds of 2.78
>>65067014
>>65067024
>>65067027chink grenade battlerifle
>>65065499should have been the neopup
>>65067017sorry, I'm not explaining myself wellthe HAMMR and Pike system is nice but falls short for the same reason people don't like the M320people want either a weapon that's big enough to make it worth dropping your rifle for a few seconds, like an LAW rocket; or a weapon that's small enough that it takes mere seconds to aim, load, launch, and then resume firing, like the M203 UGLeven weapons like the Energa grenade, which is relatively easy and quick to launch, is regarded by many as too much effort for too little banga good weapon I think would be a (semi?) disposable LAW type loitering munition that can be quickly launched before switching back to a riflebig enough to deliver a useful amount of HE, not so big that it's unwieldy, accurate enough to not need multiple shotsbasically the remote missiles from SW Battlefront 2, with no compromises in portability and ease of use>so what about dedicated grenade launchers?nobody likes them. just issue everyone UGLs, and train them in their proper use
>It's different when America does something because... IT JUST IS OK!
>>65065499I dropped Cappy the moment he said Azov was "disgusting" because they're nazis
>>65066969Kill yourself, faggot. That's literally the worst part.
>>65065765They're more insufferable in that their bolter designs are closer to gyrojets than grenades.
>>65067055>Switchblade 150?
>>65065528>Rheinmetal's entry wasn't strictly program compliantYeah I don't think they really counted on winning but just entered because the already had something like that.Iirc the SSW40 was developed by demand of the German army so Rheinmetall already had a product ready and paid for either way
>>65065619Apply more grenade to remove the room that blocks you from nading the fucker.That problem was already solved a century ago.
>>65067032It makes sense. Grenade launchers can benefit from more barrel, but also need room to absorb recoil. So a sidepup is an acceptable compromise.
>>65067113>He didn't drop cappy the moment he heard his average brain dead infant tier understanding on anything military relatedIm sorry anon, but you're probably retarded. The only people cappy ever appealed to was uninformed boomers scrolling through Facebook or young brand new privates who don't know better yet looking at military related YouTube slop
>>65067164the only photos I've seen of Switchblade look more like a commando mortar than something you can just put on your shoulder and let fly withsomething the size and shape of an M72 LAW, or that AT-4 with the NOD scope on it, has the advantage of form-factor familiaritySwitchblade is almost there. make it shoulder-mounted.
>>65065572>to meIt's very Euro. My instant reaction is "gay HALO shit". I get the mag against the handguard though, that part has practical bonuses.
>>65065499Ultimately, soldiers are going to have a UGV of some kind following them handling grenade chucking. Offload the heavy and dangerous shit to the robots. Besides, having a pet grenade buddy is dope.
>>65065619How many overpressure bursts do you think interior walls are good for? 6-7 grenades will swiss cheese most structures and start dropping wall chunks.
>>65065643Do they still exist as a formal inventory item? The actual bomb in a magazine pouch honest to god satchel charge?
>>65067215probably yes, but they probably call it a Common Joint Denied Access Effector Equipment Package Mk 69 SEP v4 Blk II Plus Enhanced or something
>>65067190It also has a tip-up barrel like an old pocket pistol, so you can load/unload the chamber without having to fight against stiff springs while cycling the action. That's pretty damn cool too.
>>65067215Dont think so. There are satchels for 2 lb demo charges, but they're old stock from Vietnam; I dont think there's any modern procurement of them.
>>65065499>>65065550Should have been assigned to sniper/DMR role instead
>>65065499
>>65067267>>65067269>QLUalso nicknamed "Red Rider", "Odin", "Cyclops", and "Panda"
>>65067215Demolition charge assembly m183. Even if the bags are old, I doubt they're using Vietnam War era C-4 in them.
>>65067267That would be more appropriate, but the real answer is that airburst launcher operator ought to be a whole new role/MOS in the same way FPV pilot will be. I recall one of the complaints about the XM25 was that it removed a rifleman from the squad, which seems painfully obtuse in hindsight since in those same reports it was admitted that the weapon was ending firefights before they even started; thereby making its user potentially the most valuable man in the squad and the loss of a rifleman utterly irrelevant
>>65067306>we don't need AA because CAP has always worked so far
>>65067189There's also the airburst HE version of the M72 LAW that I think Nammo makes (M72E11?)
>>65065619>>65065643>>65067200The answer is more grenades obviously.
>>65067311there are HE versions of various shoulder-mounted rockets but nowadays people want something with a camera or at least semi-guidedand you must admit, one well-aimed rocket beats three or four that you have to walk onto the target
>>65065630>30mm 00 buckYikes.
>>65067189Just place the switchblade type system on the platoon level where formerly the light mortar was located.
>>65067325it will probably replace the anti-tank systembonus points if the same weapon can also launch anti-drone ordnance; preferably a hunter-killer anti-drone drone
>>65065593lol m4They're getting a 14lb M7 with optic, light, laser and suppressor and 8 mags 6.8 with 6 mags 30mm, while the LT gets an M8 carbine, binos, 7 mags 6.8 and a M17 with 3 mags and carries absolutely none of the 30mm
>>65067321Probably as underwhelming as 40mm buckshot is.
>>65065499>Thoughts on the new US Army 30mm grenade rifle?Just another outdated weapon designed for wars from 2010s.
>>65065641Iasian hate speek list>contains hate speach>white insecurity over their large crooked noses that jut out of their skull contrasted against their deeply sunken eye sockets that mimic our primitive cousins, monkeys.The hypocrisy is laughable.
>>65065641>The idea of a horde invading and destroying a ivilization is exactly what whites have done against every single non-white group on the planet fo 500+ years.More like mogging every race for 15,000+ yrs!
>>65065681>corncrete will be much more fragile.Fucking deer ate my last house, it was corncrete. Sucks bro, fuckndeer.
>>65065775>everything from real life with Harry Potter.But life has real majiks.
>>65065919Explosive chanrge and fragmentation.
>>65065499I prefer this grenade rifle
>>65065582>It's a stupid idea. 99% of the time in combat the grenadier is going to have his thumb shoved up his ass and he'll be 100% useless in close enough quarters.Not only are you retarded but you're actually provably factually wrong. The XM25's track record disagrees with you, and counter-defilade type shit is perfect for trenches like in Ukraine.And as for CQB, this instagram operator shit where you send in bodies where you could just toss a nade is just hype. You're not liberating hostages, you're not defending your own home. Nade it.I've seen what an M32A1 does to a house with 6 well placed grenades.Have you?
>>65067635>I've seen what an M32A1 does to a house with 6 well placed grenadeshow many ziggers did that kill?
>>65065620Afghanistan and the Iraq insurgency aren't wars. Glorified cop duty shouldn't be called war
>>65067645>how many ziggers did that kill?It wasn't ziggers
>>65067706so who were they and how many did it take out?
>>65067709It was brown people, three
>>65067711alright, I'll buy itthanksso what do you think the modern squad or platoon ought to look like?
>>65067635>it worked against tribal illiterates in a shed so it's good for CQC>and counter-defilade type shit is perfect for trenches like in Ukraine.And if the enemy is closer to you than the arming distance of the grenade?
>>65065902>shillsThe chink grenade rifle is a giant, rediculous AT rifle with small payloads. This is a grenade machine gun in a ln assault rifle package. It's like zoomer newfags all have fucking aphantasia or something, you are simply incapable of comprehending nuance
>>65067105Because the two aren't at all the same, aren't intended to be used the same and won't be replacing the same gear in a squad.
>>65067764>and if the enemy is closer to you than the arming distance of the grenade?Because firstly the grenadier is not going to be the first one to jump into the trench, and secondly they already have shotgun-like grenade rounds if god forbid every fucking guy surrounding your grenadier acks for some reason
>>65067764Maybe you shouldn't be the first guy storming trenches
>>65067182Interesting side note about gebalte ladung, the grenade charges were designed to be used in this way from the start. The walls were made thin enough that a charge would set off adjacent charges rather than just deforming and destroying them. The russians saw this and tried it themselves, but either didn't realize they needed to be designed differently or didn't care, so they often spent 6 grenades for the boom of one
>>65067389Ok smooth brain
>>65067854>Because firstly the grenadier is not going to be the first one to jump into the trench,The grenadier and the rifleman very specifically are the first guys in the fireteam to jump into the trench in current doctrine.That's now one role the grenadier can no longer perform effectively, so now you're either pushing the automatic rifleman or the team leader into the trench as the first ones in.>and secondly they already have shotgun-like grenade roundsWhich requires a reload to actually employ (not that big of a problem admittedly, just run the shotgun shells normally) and double the amount of ammunition carried for him to have any viability in combat outside of lobbing grenades. Can't share the ammo with the rest of the squad either, as he normally would.>if god forbid every fucking guy surrounding your grenadier acks for some reasonIt doesn't require everyone around you to die for you to get into a close enough engagement with the enemy to not have the grenades be a viable weapon. Any kind of assault over open terrain means the grenadier might come upon an enemy in close range so long as he's actually assaulting with the rest. Any kind of CQC situation involves the same. >>65067856Like I wrote above. The grenadier IS the first guy in.
>>65065499I vividly remember you fags malding way back when chankoros first introduced the same thing
>>650677151 out of 8 should have it, maybe 1 out of 4 if the launcher doubles as your CUAS solution>>65067764>And if the enemy is closer to you than the arming distance of the grenade?you're too close, back off.>but what about room-to-roomHand grenades. I'm obviously talking about 40mm through windows, not CQB-ing an M32 in a shoothouse (although you could with some rounds)
>>65067893>The grenadier IS the first guy in.Yeah that's stupid, don't do that.Europeans have lightweight UHMWPE shields, have the first guy just carry that with a short Rattler or RSAR. Or Flux Raider I guess, but I hate those things
>you can't use this, what about when ur storming trenches, you can't use a grenade launcher in a trench, you just can't..All I can see is that the US military, in their arrogance, refuses to change.
>>65066148>Trey Knight described it as extremely uncomfortable to shoot, "feeling like you got punched in the face with every shot you fired."My 10GA turkey shells are 2.25oz of shot, which should be somewhere between 950-1000 grains, and I believe shot velocity is like 1200fps.I run them out of a H&R single, weighs like 7lbs or something?I do remember the first time I ever fired it, all I had was turkey shells, and I wasn't ready for it, so I didn't hold it near as tight as I should have. It did actually kind of feel like getting rocked with a good one to the head.I actually haven't shot that gun in a while because the last time I did, the stock cracked and I'm afraid if I shoot it again I'll end up with wood splinters in my shoulder.Normally I could run about 5-10 10ga shells in one sitting before I'd have to tap out for a minute.I wonder what weights and velocities were involved with their 40, and how much worse it'd be.
>>65068164quite unimplessive
>>65068133>you're too close, back off.It's the job of the infantry to close in with and destroy the enemy. Speed and aggression are absolutely necessary in trench clearing.
>>65067635Some of the feedback from rangers using the XM25 was that giving up a rifleman out of a squad was in fact too painful to justify the benefits of the fancy grenade launcher i.e. that "retarded" anon is 100% correct to bring up those concerns.https://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/09/01/investigators-army-consider-canceling-troubled-airburst-weapon.html>In March 2013, elements of the 75th Ranger Regiment refused to take XM25 with them for a raid on a fortified enemy compound in Afghanistan, sources familiar with the incident said.>After an initial assessment, Ranger units found the XM25 too heavy and cumbersome for the battlefield. They were also concerned that the limited basic load of 25mm rounds was not enough to justify taking an M4A1 carbine out of the mission, sources say.
>>65068249>Nah man, fuck the grenade launcher, we need another M4 or we are all going to dieSaid no infantryman in the history of the fucking planet
>>65068258
>>65065499Is it effective against FPVs? If no, it was a waste of money.
>>65068260they adopted the 302 precisely because UBGLs are even worse than having it swinging around on a sling or in an oversized pouchnobody uses the 302 attached to the gun anymore, and Ukrainian soldiers use them exactly the same way
>>65068249>Some of the feedback from rangers using the XM25 was that giving up a rifleman out of a squad was in fact too painful to justify the benefits of the fancy grenade launcherSome. Initially.When they tried to take it from us, we wanted to keep it. What killed it was a dumb ammo incident and budgetary constraints. Stop thinking what you read on the internet is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth.Why do you think PGS is trying to bring back the capability?>that "retarded" anon is 100% correct to bring up those concernsNo, he's not and you're as retarded as he his, and you both think you know more than you do. You both live at the bottom of the Dunning Kruger valley.
>>650682652013 was UBGL
>>65068236>It's the job of the infantry to close in with and destroy the enemy. Platitudes>Speed and aggression are absolutely necessary in trench clearing.Absolutely fucking not. Do it methodically, minimize risk. If a non-direct solution exists, use it.COD-kids, I fucking swear. Stop watching CQB compilations on Instagram.
>>65065619>And what do you do when the enemy is one room in, and can't be hit by the grenades you're shooting into windows?nigga we got a bolter now, just shoot out all the walls or the supports and just destroy itif that isn't feasible then call in air support
>>65068274>PlatitudesThere is no other effective way of clearing out a position of the enemy, and you have to clear the position out if you want to fight any other war than a static, attritional slogfest. That is, if you're fighting an actual war and not some police action against third worlders.>Absolutely fucking not. Do it methodically, minimize risk.Speed and violence of action do not preclude any of this. A slow approach without violence of action gives time and ability for the defender to fight back and organize or retreat in good order. Just as you can throw a grenade at him, he can throw a grenade at you. Today, you're also getting hit by drones.With speed and aggression you can disjoint and surprise him to an extent where he fails to put up organized resistance and will choose to fuck off and try to fight another day, rather than get picked off one by one.>COD-kids, I fucking swear. Stop watching CQB compilations on Instagram.Pull your head out of your ass, you clown.
>>65068293>you have to clear the position out if you want to fight any other war than a static, attritional slogfest>A slow approach without violence of action gives time and ability for the defender to fight back and organize or retreat in good order. Just as you can throw a grenade at him, he can throw a grenade at you. Today, you're also getting hit by drones.>With speed and aggression you can disjoint and surprise him to an extent where he fails to put up organized resistance and will choose to fuck off and try to fight another day, rather than get picked off one by one.More infantry-centered platitudes and wishful thinking. If you can saturate a trench with a mk19 and choose not to because you want to initiate contact by running into it, you're a retard.>That is, if you're fighting an actual war >other than a static, attritional slogfestThat's what trench warfare is, dumbass. A war of attrition punctuated by rushes PRECEDED by artillery (now drones) to soften the enemy. Which is why I'm advocating for counter-defilade solutions as gap closer.
>>65065558>>65066927
>>65068318>More infantry-centered platitudes and wishful thinking.Even in Ukraine, it's still the infantry who go in and dig the enemy out of his holes. You're out of touch as can be.>If you can saturate a trench with a mk19 and choose not to because you want to initiate contact by running into it, you're a retard.Why are you building strawman arguments like this?>That's what trench warfare is, dumbass.Trench warfare is trench warfare even without attacks. You can wage trench warfare with zero attacks on either side. There is no definition or requirement of>A war of attrition punctuated by rushes PRECEDED by artillery (now drones) to soften the enemy.
>>65068333>Even in Ukraine, it's still the infantry who go in and dig the enemy out of his holesYeah, and note how they do it methodically instead of being all gung-ho like you suggest. Note how they drone it and hit with arty first if they can. >You're out of touch as can be.My guy, literally go to any group of four Ukrainians about to assault a Russian trench and offer them to trade one of their rifles for a M32A1 and 18 grenades. You will not get a "no thanks".>Why are you building strawman arguments like this?Because you tried to come here with platitudes, and vague doctrinal concepts, not actual arguments, and, I'm 100% convinced, zero experience on the matter.>Trench warfare is trench warfare even without attacks. You can wage trench warfare with zero attacks on either side.Says the guy advocating for speed and violence of action? What's your argument here?
>>65067055Not him, but if you're using a Pike, you're probably going after a fixed target at very long range (max range 2000m), which means that the engagement is going to take a little more than a few seconds (albeit probably still under a minute).>>65067189The issue with Switchblade isn't that you have to kneel down to employ it; it's that, as with the Pike, you have to guide it. Yes, you can lock it onto a target as it gets close, but on the other hand, Switchblade is a lot slower-moving than Pike. Neither does quite the same thing as a LAW, which is faster to respond once you get it out.I think we kinda need to go back to first principles on this discussion. What do you need "gone", how far away is it, and how quickly from that determination do you need it removed? Answering those questions should solve a lot of our disagreements, because we're probably thinking of different scenarios/use cases. My thinking is that PGS is intended to eliminate enemy infantry threats which are beyond hand grenade range (i.e., "35-500m") and which are taking cover and difficult to deal with using direct fire, so some rapid, accurate application of HE is required. This could be done by calling in fires/air (especially now with PGK/PGMM or APKWS), but a GL is much quicker to achieve results because it only requires a verbal command to the grenadier (if even that). Now, is that use case sufficient enough to pay the price (going back to a dedicated GL, one that's even heavier than the old M79)? That's what we're trying to wrap our heads around. Remember that infantry holding CPs or on the march loved the XM-25, whereas the Rangers hated it because they were doing snatch'n'grabs where it was dead weight and one less rifle.
>>65067764Then they're in hand grenade range.
>>65068140To his point, though, there are only 4 guys in a US rifle team. Team leader, SAW, grenadier, and rifleman. Who gets to follow the rifleman into the door/trench?
>>65068249>>65068258Remember that the Rangers were doing specialized assaults on houses and compounds at night, operating at close range. That's not a mission that really *needs* a dedicated GL, because for starters most of the action occurred within the GL's arming distance. Change the mission, you change the tools best suited for the unit.
>>65068526Wait, wait, wait, now just hold on a minute here!Are you saying that there is nuance? That context has a determinate effect? Just who the fuck do you think you are talking to? This doesn't sound like any /k/ I want to be a part of!
>>65068551I know, but some of y'all are pretty chill, just don't come to school tomorrow, y'know? Heck, a day or two ago we had an OP ask a question and it got thoroughly explained to them and they thanked the other posters for it! What is this board coming to?
>>65066969Tau are faggots and tau fanboys are bigger faggots.
>>65068526SWAT raids have no place in a proper shooting war
>>65068516>>65068526The concept that grunts are going to do Tier 1- style CQB raids, or going door to door like in Fallujah is really outdated.The western doctrine cannot tolerate the risk that comes with doing CQB with just carbines to clear random houses. Light shields, nades, and ground/air drones are already being manufactured specifically for that purpose.
>>65066969mossa sucks also
>a Grenadier team>meant to team up with two more typical fireteams where such numbers where needed>all loaded open with whatever the modern replacement for the China lake will be, on a 2:1 basis of riflemen to grenadiers>the typical fire team has its grenadiers replaced with automatic riflemenI also dream of every fireteam having 3 forms, one where the guns are all belt and mag fed, one where the rifles are all light including a outwardly identical designated marksman rifle, and yet another similar to the first but where the rifles are all actually larger caliber machine guns.
>>65067215>>65067242>>65067303Satchel Charges are absolutely still a thing.Satchel Charge my beloved.
>>65069174>the modern replacement for the China lakeGuy they only made like 2 dozen of those.
>>65065582We lost another good soldier to the CQC mind virus.o7
>>65065814Gun points hither.Optic point dithers.
>>65065812>except for the parts that actually distinguish bolters from ordinary firearms, it's totally a bolterBehold, a plasma grenade.
>>65069207The dream of the disembodied concept lives on: grenades shucked everywhere.
>>65065558i shit on China because they're bitches who can't do anything good
>>65065558The rifleman is the core of everything , anything else is cope.Automatic rifling is pure sex and honorary btw
>>65065582he will be shooting proximity bombs at drone so he will be working overtime
>>65067943>China introduces a 30lbs grenade rifle designed for long range shooting using high velocity rounds>/k/ questions the practicality compared to anti-materiel rifles and mortars>China seethes>USA trials 15lbs low-velocity grenade rifles designed for average engagement ranges >/k/ questions the practicality compared to existing grenades and grenade launchers, and how it would work with existing infantry doctrine>China seethesWhat the fuck do you want from us? If I wanted to put up with unpleasable bitching out of China I'd never have dumped my ex.
>>65065626Seems like a textbook use case for a P90 or MP7.
>>65069413The Magpul PDR being 5.56mm makes it the more sensible logistical choice for a NATO army. It's basically the same size as a p90, but way more powerful.
>>65066929>Very low effort upscaled AR10s in plastic shellsThe Barrett has a recoiling barrel. Also, rotating bolts and gas operation works, you faggot, and is the sensible direction when the entire premise is to be able to shoot grenades like you were shooting a rifle.That said, the SSW40 is very cool and innovative, I agree there.>>65065839The board used to be a lot more fun 15+ years ago.>>65067055>nobody likes themNot true.
>>65067105Did you drink too much mercury? Do you actually not understand the differing contexts and roles?
>>65068265>because UBGLs are even worse How?>nobody uses the 302 attached to the gun anymoreBecause it's fucking enormous when you do that, as the M302 is designed to be a dedicated launcher first and foremost, and thus has all the shit for that and then just attaches to a rail.Meanwhile, a proper underbarrel launcher can be half the weight and bulk, because it doesn't need a separate stock or grip.
>>65069691>How?By putting the weight on a rifle and making the rifle worseBy making it so you have to tank the recoil in an awkward way because it's not perfectly in line with the stock and a stock set to fire a rifle will be at the wrong angle to fire a grenade launcher in a parabolaby having whatever aiming system you're using really far out, off side or otherwise not able to aim the grenades high enough
>>65069701>By putting the weight on a rifle and making the rifle worseAs opposed to the weight of PEQs and lights?>By making it so you have to tank the recoil in an awkward wayLiterally not an issue, 40x46mm doesn't recoil harshly, and you're firing only the one shot.>by having whatever aiming system you're using really far out, off side or otherwise not able to aim the grenades high enoughAside from being able to just eyeball 40x46mm, and skipping sighting altogether, I don't think you have much imagination, and I also think you're really overestimating that issue.
>>65065582the whole reason its being resurrected is to shoot down FPVs, which is a 24/7 job. small minded niggers ITT fixating in the grenadier being unable to pie corners inside structures while missing the obvious reality that without him and his capability, the whole fireteam get featured in a killcam montage and rot in the sun before ever reaching the target building. Like another guy pointed out, its a whole new MOS.
>>65069726>As opposed to the weight of PEQs and lights?Which is why people have been making those lighter and lighter if they can and not putting them on everything every time if they don't need to. Are you trying to argue nobody's got a problem with weight?>Literally not an issue, 40x46mm doesn't recoil harshly, and you're firing only the one shot.>Aside from being able to just eyeball 40x46mm, and skipping sighting altogether, I don't think you have much imagination, and I also think you're really overestimating that issue.Shooting 40mm accurately is the entire fucking point of using it as a force multiplier. You can't eyeball a grenade into a window several hundred yards away. Ukrainian soldiers who are using these for the most real shit possible, more intense and more indepth than even American troops, and they say being able to whip them out and fire them comfortably and accurately is the main reason they use them over just using rocket launchers. Being able to fire them upwards into the windows of buildings.
>>65069726The standalone launchers have been gaining steam just because there's very few situations where you have to rapidly switch between blooping and blasting (you have friends to do the blasting while you're blooping) that actually necessitate fixing it awkwardly underbarrel when you could just have something standalone slung at the ready that can do the blooping more handily when blooping is needed, leaving the boomstick alone to do it's job unimpeded.
>>65065550Just give them the Overkill perk so they can carry a rifle too.
>>65065626It'll be a cold day in hell when they start issuing memepups. The M4 is compact enough.
>>65067156They're kinda both. Somehow it seems like bolter = gyrojet is the one piece of lore that's penetrated into the gun community at large, but they also have a regular casing and powder and the projectile is usually explosive. They're smaller caliber than grenade launchers (about 20mm on paper, though visual depictions make them much larger than that) but overall they've actually got more in common with one of these "small caliber" 25mm or 30mm launchers than they do with a Gyrojet.
>>65065585They have HMG's that weigh as much as an GPMG though (QJZ-171 at 26.24 lb), that's why they don't bother with a medium caliber machineguns
>>65069893Sure. I was thinking more in hi-lo versus gyrojet with a booster charge rather than the actual projectile given you can have HE spotter rounds with conventional ammo. AFAIK 40k lore has different bolter rounds down to solid AP as well.
>>65070104This stupid fucking memegun again. It weighs a bit over 25kg with optic and a 60 round belt, and it will OOB if you try to shoot normal ammo through it instead of its special lightweight ammo. It's not a replacement for a GPMG or a proper HMG. It's its own thing, which probably has a niche somewhere but not a big enough one that anyone else ever bothered to fuck with the concept.
>>65069211>>65069205>>65069198Anon I don't know how to tell you thisBut the engineers lied to you when they said you could solve all problems with explosives
>>65070222>Engineers liedIt was a soft lie. Explosives to turn big problems into smaller, more manageable problem smithereens. Remember the TNT whale cleanup.
>>65066927>Chinks replaced the machinegunner, the US is replacing the squad grenadier. You might want to consider why these are differentChinks replace the machinegunner with a 35 mm agl and americans replace the grenadier with a 30 mm agl. Chink agl is long recoil with computerized targeting and a compact circular magazine, american agl is just a regular upscaled gas action rifle with a clumsy box magazine. In terms of refinement, the chinks are clearly ahead. BTW there was a silly swedish project consisting of a micro carl gustaf in 45 mm caliber with a 5.56 rifle attached, ofc it went nowhere as it was too large and too clumsy and too heavy and too low rate of fire.
