Thoughts on the new US Army 30mm grenade rifle?
Buy an ad, faggot.
Have they actually picked one now? If the Barrett won, I'm not surprised, though there were a lot of good entrants in those trials.Rheinmetal's entry wasn't strictly program compliant, being a normal 40mm, but its features and design looked extremely good to me in its own right.
I get it's supposed to be the primary weapon for a squad-level grenadier, but that person really needs to be equipped with some kind of micro PDW as a secondary. MP7, P90, some kind of ultracompact AR, something like that..
Wasn't /k/ shitting on China a couple years ago for making grenade rifles the centre of their infantry squads?
>>65065528The rheinmetall one looks so sick, I hope someone adopts it
>>65065558It's a stupid idea. 99% of the time in combat the grenadier is going to have his thumb shoved up his ass and he'll be 100% useless in close enough quarters.Support weapons are best kept on the platoon level to maintain flexibility both in the squads and how the weapon itself is deployed.
>>65065558/k/ has become accustomed to shitting on anything not American or Israeli, which is sad since America's weapons history is basically looking at other countries and saying, hey that's a meet idea let's make it 10 times better. Our greats advantage is that we don't automatically dismiss foreign ideas a inferior due to nationalism.
>>65065550They tried combining such a thing with the OICW project way back in the day, but there were some issues with that.>>65065558Because they use a smallbore grenade machinegun instead of any GPMG, which I feel is kinda misplaced.Something like a 25mm or 30mm GMG as a mounted weapon could be excellent, but on foot you're gonna be way limited to how much ammo you can carry for a weapon like that, there's a very real value in your machinegunner being able to carry hundreds and hundreds of rounds of 7.62mm, and any rando in the squad could carry an extra belt for him.
I'm glad they got rid of the dead-end idea that non-standard grenade launchers need to have a assault rifle attached to them, and wow, would you look at that, it just works.
>>65065582They should just carry and M4 as well, which is what they probably will end up doing. AT troops carry carbines as well as At weapons, no difference.
>>65065593>They should just carry and M4 as well, which is what they probably will end up doingPlease, think of their knees, for God's sake.
>>65065558/k/ will shit on anything not American. To be fair the ammunition requirement is a fair point, but how much ammo do you need when you can just fire a grenade and kill everything?
>>65065582Grenade spam through windows and doors is the optimal CQB method. Lawyers and optics whoring politicians are the only ones forcing us into this retarded (((HURR DURR WE NEED TO CLEAR DA ROOM DUURR))) mentality. This has been a solved problem for a century, simply grenade the room, failing that JDAM the fucker
>>65065597So sick of the knee meme, knees are 100% replaceable, firepower is not
>>65065572Yes. I have an enduring emotional attachment to the Milkor MGL, because I think it's cool that it's a big revolver, but damn, the Rheinmetall launcher just seems like a super solid weapon.>>65065583>Our greats advantage is that we don't automatically dismiss foreign ideas a inferior due to nationalism.Well yeah, looking at if someone else has a good idea is a good idea in itself, but that doesn't make a GMG as your main squad support weapon a particularly captivating idea.>>65065598That's an easy way to think if you know nothing about infantry combat. Grenades aren't a magical kill button, you also have to hit.Also, most shots you fire will not be trying to make a hit to kill, most shots you fire will be to suppress the enemy.The reason you have a guy with a weapon like an M240B or PKM with you is because he can suppress the enemy hard, and for a long duration, and he can suppress pretty far, and sometimes even take an occasional aimed shot/burst longer than you really could with a 5.56mm/5.45mm/5.8mm assault rifle or LMG.
>>65065605>Grenade spam through windows and doors is the optimal CQB method.And what do you do when the enemy is one room in, and can't be hit by the grenades you're shooting into windows?The infantry has to go inside, and at that point the grenadier is again useless.Same problem as going on the assault. How the fuck is the grenadier supposed to assault with his fireteam when he doesn't have a proper firearm?
>>65065605You'd think after decades of Hearts and minds failing people would realize the answer is war is always just more firepower. Afghanistan could have been easily won with more firepower
>>65065597Give them lighter weigh M4s without shit like quadrails on them I guess.Or maybe look at reviving the MagPul PDR.
>>65065619use the grenadier to blast holes in the drywall and send the drones in to mop up
>>65065582>he'll be 100% useless in close enough quarters.Just have a mag of buckshot grenades ready.
>>65065628>drywallFighting the second American civil war, huh?
>>65065619Why are you sending the grenadier in an assault squad, would you put the M240 at the front of a stack? It's a support weapon. By you logic we should ditch GPMGs because they suck at CQC
>>65065499It doesnt matter, he will die to a 100$ fpv drone
>>65065558it's a niche specialist weapon that will be difficult to fit into a soldier squad/platoon, so replacing their primary and cental arm - the machinegun - with one is still immensely stupid but thin skinned chinks will bitch about it regardless due to their deep inferiority and persecution complexes.
>>65065619If the building is that hard, somebody probably has a satchel charge, just throw it into the building like that one sheriff did during the MOVE bombing
>>65065582t. american whose idea of infantry combat comes from vietnam war movies
>>65065634M240s are in the weapons squad, on the platoon level, where support weapons belong.This fancy grenade launcher is envisioned to be deployed in the rifle squads.
>>65065651>t. chinksect who hasn't won a war in 300 years
>>65065499>It is your primary100% it'll get the launcher treatment and get strapped the back of some private called the grenadier when his actual job is to just hump it for the squad while he does regular rifleman things. When it's time to use it, the squad leader or whichever dickswinger can pull the fattest rank will yank it off him and start blasting, then toss it back to him once it's out of ammo or broken.
>>65065499The chode load
>>65065598>Grenade launchers are one-hit noobtubes that don't require excessive time on target :)Must be nice, thinking that engagements are one-and-done deals or that recon-by-fire doesn't exist like in his video games.
>>65065631You're right, corncrete will be much more fragile.
>>65065499>680fpsSigh... Not 1000.
>>65065735Wouldn't that kick like a mule?
>>65065656If only you could configure your platoon and equipment to match the mission
>>65065746You would need to know the details and demands of the mission beforehand to do so in an effective manner, which is not realistic.
>>65065499>that one faggot insisting people call it a bolterWhy are 40k tards always insufferable
>>65065735low velocity 40mm barely a third of that
>>65065499We 40k bolters now
>>65065765I swear that 40K trannies are like those liberals who compare everything from real life with Harry Potter.
>>65065765It literally is though
>>65065765>>65065771kek
>>65065771>>65065786Fuck off faggot
>>65065792Take a walk to cool off
>>65065755No it's pretty realistic to know the demands and details of a mission prior to setting out, that's called receiving orders, actually you usually have a pretty good idea of what you are going to do when you get a warning order. Like if you know you know the objective is a building, you can put your riflemen into assault squats and keep your grenadiers and machine gunners in a support squad. They can suppress the building while you assault squads approach it. This is pretty standard stuff if you allow your commanders to have independent thought and actions. This can be done at any level to, squad, platoon, company
>>65065794Real life isn't a video game, Timmy.
>>65065793Take a walk across a busy highway
>>65065558>65065558I'll shit on China and the US right now though the use case for the weapons seems different. In the Chink case it seems to be hyperspecialized for fighting jeetistanis in the mountains which does have some utility but its questionable if its worth the effort. In the Chink model they have clearly aimed for velocity above all else to ensure descent accuracy and range.In the American example it seems to just be another test bed. At worst its another XM25 but this time +5 so that the explosive charge isn't so anemic. And with much better electronics than twenty five years ago it might work but is unlikley to be worth it. At best they want to roll out a general purpose programable 30mm based on the existing 120mm program for use by various platforms against drones and this is the infantry version. Probably won't happen but it wouldn't be a bad idea.China's launcher is much less ambitious but is dumb only because of limited utility, it isn't bad.The US example may or may not be bad but if it was meant to be a universal solution to several requirements it could be a good idea, which means it will almost certainly be shitcanned and we'll be bitching for a decade.
>>65065499is that a famas?
>>65065499>>65065520
>>65065765But it pretty much is. Bitch
>>65065528>>65065808
The South Africans already made this with the Neopup PAW-20.>muh botlers 40k ecks deeAgain, already done. But you casual fucks don't know what you're talking about and flit in and out of /k/ at whim.
>>65065801Lmao this is hilarious, I'm really going to blow your mind now, with switched on commanders you can even reconfigure your platoon during different phases of the mission, so patrolling to the objective you keep you gunners and grenadiers dispersed throughout the squads to better react to enemy fire and ambush, then when you reach the objective you put them into a support squat to suppress the objective while the assuat squads assault. All of this can be put in your orders to your squad leaders. This is all apart of battle procedure. Competent armies don't just through troops into the fray with no Intel, plan or recon
>>65065817>and flit in and out of /k/ at whim.What kind of mentally ill person would want to be on /k/ all the time
>>65065839me
>>65065817Already mentioned in the bolter thread.https://vocaroo.com/147gSvgdJlgjI think the reason the chinks want that high velocity 40mm is so that the blast is viable at long range, it more immediately suppresses an enemy vs a machine gun figuring out its beatin' zone at that range, and they already have 40mm.I wonder if the American 30mm has any chance for being slung under an AR platform.
>>65065499>>65065873Thread from last fall on the new grenade launcher:https://desuarchive.org/k/thread/64495933
>>65065499I thought the Rheinmetal one was cooler >>65065558Yes. I have to imagine its shills
>>6506549915ft kill radius is impressive what kind of tech are they using to achieve that kind of lethality in such a large space?
>>65065873central, south and pacific asians aren't allowed on r/aznmasculinity and the word chink would result in mass self mutilations of displayed publicly in there
>>65065873You forgot SEAmonkey.
>>65065499>>65065558Staged thread
>>65065585Can't any rando carry grenades for the grenadier?
>>65065651China got roflstomped by the Vietnamese btw.
>>65066092That's still gonna be way fewer. You're dramatically curtailing your roundcount with this approach no matter what, a GMG only really makes sense for a vehicle or tripod mount.
>>65065902The Rheinmetall launcher is cool as fuck, but being 40mm it was going to be completely unable to meet the program requirements for trajectory and muzzle velocity.It had to be flat shooting, fast moving, and low recoiling, so that you could basically fire it like you could a rifle.>>65065873The XM25 seemed like it was somewhat liked, but these larger bore launchers with more compact and advanced electronics should be much more effective at the same job.>>65065817These are larger bore. Also they may be looking at making these things function with airburst shells.>>65065739With a 30mm or 40mm projectile, yes.For comparison, Tony Neophytou's Neopup and iNkunzi have a muzzle velocity of 1000ft/s, but it's still a 1700gr 20mm grenade. For the Neopup, it's designed for the entire gun to recoil a substantial distance inside of its stock to use up that energy (which looks sick), and the iNkunzi is a belt-fed grenade machinegun which, best I know, have still only been tested for vehicle and tripod mounts.On the other end, Knight's Armament Corporation once experimented with a pump-action high-velocity 40mm grenade launcher, the EX41, which had no special recoil mitigation. Trey Knight described it as extremely uncomfortable to shoot, "feeling like you got punched in the face with every shot you fired.">>65065886I remember that one, it was a good thread.
>>65066148>XM25as some anons including yours truly agreed on the previous thread, the XM25 was somewhat unfairly given short shrift and ought still be with us today (MIC / procurement had other plans)
>>65065873>asian slurs>can't stop thinking about blacksyou have a problem anon
>>65065499We should've went with the SSW40
>>65065558Chinks replaced the machinegunner, the US is replacing the squad grenadier. You might want to consider why these are different
>>65065528It would be interesting to hear the backroom politics behind this program, because it really seems like everyone other than RM are going into it with the expectation that it will all be canned like the XM25 was (H&Ks absence is notable, guess they're still understandably bitter), so I wonder if a winner was already decided from the outset and everybody involved knows it. Very low effort upscaled AR10s in plastic shells. That break action to fit Pike rounds is so fucking smart and cool, like guided rounds are the very munitions that you arent going to be spamming so it doesnt matter if the dont fit in the magwell meaning smaller and lighter overall package; goddamn thats actual innovation. Then look at everybody else with their copied homework, if nothing else I expect more from FN.
>>65066929Isn't the HAMMR also being adopted by the Germs? That might explain why. Also, I agree it's the best one in practicality, but IIRC the army wants a smaller projectile.
>>65066929>break action to fit Pike rounds is so fucking smart and cool, like guided rounds are the very munitions that you arent going to be spamming so it doesnt matter if the dont fit in the magwell meaning smaller and lighter overall package; goddamn thatsRifle grenades basically, and what did we learn from that?Over/under M203 is superior because nobody likes having to stop firing to put a new thingamajig on and then have to take it off again
>>65065765>>65065771>>65065817>>65065851>Is that HECKIN CHUNGUS BOLTERINO!?The only good thing to come out of Warhammer is those very fuckable blue ayys
>>65066965Idk what you mean, it all uses the same breech. Its not a shot trap or anything.
>>65066969it didnt tho, hot tau are entirely an invention of fan asrtists. actual tau women are indistinguishable from men.
>>65066929pike rounds are garbage though
>>65066979He said fuckable blue ayys, not fuckable blue ayy women.
>>65066975>Idk what you meanLike I said:>nobody likes having to stop firing to put a new thingamajig on and then have to take it off again
>>65065499>>65065528>>65065613>i am... forgotten...
>>65067001Yeah, what do you mean by that? Theres no removable addon to fire them, you just load them directly into the breech. Its just theyre too long to fit in a regular mag, so the whole barrel tilts.
>>65065499I don't know why anyone is surprised tha this is the future of warfare. Turning your bullets into FPVs was always going to be the next step. Explosions are going to be more efficient and useful than magdumping at brush until your M4 melts and you start blaming the military for giving you 400 rounds of 5.56 instead of 2000 rounds of 2.78
>>65067014
>>65067024
>>65067027chink grenade battlerifle
>>65065499should have been the neopup
>>65067017sorry, I'm not explaining myself wellthe HAMMR and Pike system is nice but falls short for the same reason people don't like the M320people want either a weapon that's big enough to make it worth dropping your rifle for a few seconds, like an LAW rocket; or a weapon that's small enough that it takes mere seconds to aim, load, launch, and then resume firing, like the M203 UGLeven weapons like the Energa grenade, which is relatively easy and quick to launch, is regarded by many as too much effort for too little banga good weapon I think would be a (semi?) disposable LAW type loitering munition that can be quickly launched before switching back to a riflebig enough to deliver a useful amount of HE, not so big that it's unwieldy, accurate enough to not need multiple shotsbasically the remote missiles from SW Battlefront 2, with no compromises in portability and ease of use>so what about dedicated grenade launchers?nobody likes them. just issue everyone UGLs, and train them in their proper use
>It's different when America does something because... IT JUST IS OK!
>>65065499I dropped Cappy the moment he said Azov was "disgusting" because they're nazis
>>65066969Kill yourself, faggot. That's literally the worst part.
>>65065765They're more insufferable in that their bolter designs are closer to gyrojets than grenades.
>>65067055>Switchblade 150?
>>65065528>Rheinmetal's entry wasn't strictly program compliantYeah I don't think they really counted on winning but just entered because the already had something like that.Iirc the SSW40 was developed by demand of the German army so Rheinmetall already had a product ready and paid for either way
>>65065619Apply more grenade to remove the room that blocks you from nading the fucker.That problem was already solved a century ago.
>>65067032It makes sense. Grenade launchers can benefit from more barrel, but also need room to absorb recoil. So a sidepup is an acceptable compromise.
>>65067113>He didn't drop cappy the moment he heard his average brain dead infant tier understanding on anything military relatedIm sorry anon, but you're probably retarded. The only people cappy ever appealed to was uninformed boomers scrolling through Facebook or young brand new privates who don't know better yet looking at military related YouTube slop
>>65067164the only photos I've seen of Switchblade look more like a commando mortar than something you can just put on your shoulder and let fly withsomething the size and shape of an M72 LAW, or that AT-4 with the NOD scope on it, has the advantage of form-factor familiaritySwitchblade is almost there. make it shoulder-mounted.
>>65065572>to meIt's very Euro. My instant reaction is "gay HALO shit". I get the mag against the handguard though, that part has practical bonuses.
>>65065499Ultimately, soldiers are going to have a UGV of some kind following them handling grenade chucking. Offload the heavy and dangerous shit to the robots. Besides, having a pet grenade buddy is dope.
>>65065619How many overpressure bursts do you think interior walls are good for? 6-7 grenades will swiss cheese most structures and start dropping wall chunks.
>>65065643Do they still exist as a formal inventory item? The actual bomb in a magazine pouch honest to god satchel charge?
>>65067215probably yes, but they probably call it a Common Joint Denied Access Effector Equipment Package Mk 69 SEP v4 Blk II Plus Enhanced or something
>>65067190It also has a tip-up barrel like an old pocket pistol, so you can load/unload the chamber without having to fight against stiff springs while cycling the action. That's pretty damn cool too.
>>65067215Dont think so. There are satchels for 2 lb demo charges, but they're old stock from Vietnam; I dont think there's any modern procurement of them.
>>65065499>>65065550Should have been assigned to sniper/DMR role instead
>>65065499
>>65067267>>65067269>QLUalso nicknamed "Red Rider", "Odin", "Cyclops", and "Panda"
>>65067215Demolition charge assembly m183. Even if the bags are old, I doubt they're using Vietnam War era C-4 in them.
>>65067267That would be more appropriate, but the real answer is that airburst launcher operator ought to be a whole new role/MOS in the same way FPV pilot will be. I recall one of the complaints about the XM25 was that it removed a rifleman from the squad, which seems painfully obtuse in hindsight since in those same reports it was admitted that the weapon was ending firefights before they even started; thereby making its user potentially the most valuable man in the squad and the loss of a rifleman utterly irrelevant
>>65067306>we don't need AA because CAP has always worked so far
>>65067189There's also the airburst HE version of the M72 LAW that I think Nammo makes (M72E11?)
>>65065619>>65065643>>65067200The answer is more grenades obviously.
>>65067311there are HE versions of various shoulder-mounted rockets but nowadays people want something with a camera or at least semi-guidedand you must admit, one well-aimed rocket beats three or four that you have to walk onto the target
>>65065630>30mm 00 buckYikes.
>>65067189Just place the switchblade type system on the platoon level where formerly the light mortar was located.
>>65067325it will probably replace the anti-tank systembonus points if the same weapon can also launch anti-drone ordnance; preferably a hunter-killer anti-drone drone
>>65065593lol m4They're getting a 14lb M7 with optic, light, laser and suppressor and 8 mags 6.8 with 6 mags 30mm, while the LT gets an M8 carbine, binos, 7 mags 6.8 and a M17 with 3 mags and carries absolutely none of the 30mm
>>65067321Probably as underwhelming as 40mm buckshot is.
>>65065499>Thoughts on the new US Army 30mm grenade rifle?Just another outdated weapon designed for wars from 2010s.
>>65065641Iasian hate speek list>contains hate speach>white insecurity over their large crooked noses that jut out of their skull contrasted against their deeply sunken eye sockets that mimic our primitive cousins, monkeys.The hypocrisy is laughable.
>>65065641>The idea of a horde invading and destroying a ivilization is exactly what whites have done against every single non-white group on the planet fo 500+ years.More like mogging every race for 15,000+ yrs!
>>65065681>corncrete will be much more fragile.Fucking deer ate my last house, it was corncrete. Sucks bro, fuckndeer.
>>65065775>everything from real life with Harry Potter.But life has real majiks.
>>65065919Explosive chanrge and fragmentation.
>>65065499I prefer this grenade rifle
>>65065582>It's a stupid idea. 99% of the time in combat the grenadier is going to have his thumb shoved up his ass and he'll be 100% useless in close enough quarters.Not only are you retarded but you're actually provably factually wrong. The XM25's track record disagrees with you, and counter-defilade type shit is perfect for trenches like in Ukraine.And as for CQB, this instagram operator shit where you send in bodies where you could just toss a nade is just hype. You're not liberating hostages, you're not defending your own home. Nade it.I've seen what an M32A1 does to a house with 6 well placed grenades.Have you?
>>65067635>I've seen what an M32A1 does to a house with 6 well placed grenadeshow many ziggers did that kill?
>>65065620Afghanistan and the Iraq insurgency aren't wars. Glorified cop duty shouldn't be called war
>>65067645>how many ziggers did that kill?It wasn't ziggers
>>65067706so who were they and how many did it take out?
>>65067709It was brown people, three
>>65067711alright, I'll buy itthanksso what do you think the modern squad or platoon ought to look like?
>>65067635>it worked against tribal illiterates in a shed so it's good for CQC>and counter-defilade type shit is perfect for trenches like in Ukraine.And if the enemy is closer to you than the arming distance of the grenade?
>>65065902>shillsThe chink grenade rifle is a giant, rediculous AT rifle with small payloads. This is a grenade machine gun in a ln assault rifle package. It's like zoomer newfags all have fucking aphantasia or something, you are simply incapable of comprehending nuance
>>65067105Because the two aren't at all the same, aren't intended to be used the same and won't be replacing the same gear in a squad.
>>65067764>and if the enemy is closer to you than the arming distance of the grenade?Because firstly the grenadier is not going to be the first one to jump into the trench, and secondly they already have shotgun-like grenade rounds if god forbid every fucking guy surrounding your grenadier acks for some reason
>>65067764Maybe you shouldn't be the first guy storming trenches
>>65067182Interesting side note about gebalte ladung, the grenade charges were designed to be used in this way from the start. The walls were made thin enough that a charge would set off adjacent charges rather than just deforming and destroying them. The russians saw this and tried it themselves, but either didn't realize they needed to be designed differently or didn't care, so they often spent 6 grenades for the boom of one
>>65067389Ok smooth brain
>>65067854>Because firstly the grenadier is not going to be the first one to jump into the trench,The grenadier and the rifleman very specifically are the first guys in the fireteam to jump into the trench in current doctrine.That's now one role the grenadier can no longer perform effectively, so now you're either pushing the automatic rifleman or the team leader into the trench as the first ones in.>and secondly they already have shotgun-like grenade roundsWhich requires a reload to actually employ (not that big of a problem admittedly, just run the shotgun shells normally) and double the amount of ammunition carried for him to have any viability in combat outside of lobbing grenades. Can't share the ammo with the rest of the squad either, as he normally would.>if god forbid every fucking guy surrounding your grenadier acks for some reasonIt doesn't require everyone around you to die for you to get into a close enough engagement with the enemy to not have the grenades be a viable weapon. Any kind of assault over open terrain means the grenadier might come upon an enemy in close range so long as he's actually assaulting with the rest. Any kind of CQC situation involves the same. >>65067856Like I wrote above. The grenadier IS the first guy in.
>>65065499I vividly remember you fags malding way back when chankoros first introduced the same thing
>>650677151 out of 8 should have it, maybe 1 out of 4 if the launcher doubles as your CUAS solution>>65067764>And if the enemy is closer to you than the arming distance of the grenade?you're too close, back off.>but what about room-to-roomHand grenades. I'm obviously talking about 40mm through windows, not CQB-ing an M32 in a shoothouse (although you could with some rounds)
>>65067893>The grenadier IS the first guy in.Yeah that's stupid, don't do that.Europeans have lightweight UHMWPE shields, have the first guy just carry that with a short Rattler or RSAR. Or Flux Raider I guess, but I hate those things
>you can't use this, what about when ur storming trenches, you can't use a grenade launcher in a trench, you just can't..All I can see is that the US military, in their arrogance, refuses to change.
>>65066148>Trey Knight described it as extremely uncomfortable to shoot, "feeling like you got punched in the face with every shot you fired."My 10GA turkey shells are 2.25oz of shot, which should be somewhere between 950-1000 grains, and I believe shot velocity is like 1200fps.I run them out of a H&R single, weighs like 7lbs or something?I do remember the first time I ever fired it, all I had was turkey shells, and I wasn't ready for it, so I didn't hold it near as tight as I should have. It did actually kind of feel like getting rocked with a good one to the head.I actually haven't shot that gun in a while because the last time I did, the stock cracked and I'm afraid if I shoot it again I'll end up with wood splinters in my shoulder.Normally I could run about 5-10 10ga shells in one sitting before I'd have to tap out for a minute.I wonder what weights and velocities were involved with their 40, and how much worse it'd be.
>>65068164quite unimplessive
>>65068133>you're too close, back off.It's the job of the infantry to close in with and destroy the enemy. Speed and aggression are absolutely necessary in trench clearing.
>>65067635Some of the feedback from rangers using the XM25 was that giving up a rifleman out of a squad was in fact too painful to justify the benefits of the fancy grenade launcher i.e. that "retarded" anon is 100% correct to bring up those concerns.https://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/09/01/investigators-army-consider-canceling-troubled-airburst-weapon.html>In March 2013, elements of the 75th Ranger Regiment refused to take XM25 with them for a raid on a fortified enemy compound in Afghanistan, sources familiar with the incident said.>After an initial assessment, Ranger units found the XM25 too heavy and cumbersome for the battlefield. They were also concerned that the limited basic load of 25mm rounds was not enough to justify taking an M4A1 carbine out of the mission, sources say.
>>65068249>Nah man, fuck the grenade launcher, we need another M4 or we are all going to dieSaid no infantryman in the history of the fucking planet
>>65068258
>>65065499Is it effective against FPVs? If no, it was a waste of money.
>>65068260they adopted the 302 precisely because UBGLs are even worse than having it swinging around on a sling or in an oversized pouchnobody uses the 302 attached to the gun anymore, and Ukrainian soldiers use them exactly the same way
>>65068249>Some of the feedback from rangers using the XM25 was that giving up a rifleman out of a squad was in fact too painful to justify the benefits of the fancy grenade launcherSome. Initially.When they tried to take it from us, we wanted to keep it. What killed it was a dumb ammo incident and budgetary constraints. Stop thinking what you read on the internet is the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth.Why do you think PGS is trying to bring back the capability?>that "retarded" anon is 100% correct to bring up those concernsNo, he's not and you're as retarded as he his, and you both think you know more than you do. You both live at the bottom of the Dunning Kruger valley.
>>650682652013 was UBGL
>>65068236>It's the job of the infantry to close in with and destroy the enemy. Platitudes>Speed and aggression are absolutely necessary in trench clearing.Absolutely fucking not. Do it methodically, minimize risk. If a non-direct solution exists, use it.COD-kids, I fucking swear. Stop watching CQB compilations on Instagram.
>>65065619>And what do you do when the enemy is one room in, and can't be hit by the grenades you're shooting into windows?nigga we got a bolter now, just shoot out all the walls or the supports and just destroy itif that isn't feasible then call in air support
>>65068274>PlatitudesThere is no other effective way of clearing out a position of the enemy, and you have to clear the position out if you want to fight any other war than a static, attritional slogfest. That is, if you're fighting an actual war and not some police action against third worlders.>Absolutely fucking not. Do it methodically, minimize risk.Speed and violence of action do not preclude any of this. A slow approach without violence of action gives time and ability for the defender to fight back and organize or retreat in good order. Just as you can throw a grenade at him, he can throw a grenade at you. Today, you're also getting hit by drones.With speed and aggression you can disjoint and surprise him to an extent where he fails to put up organized resistance and will choose to fuck off and try to fight another day, rather than get picked off one by one.>COD-kids, I fucking swear. Stop watching CQB compilations on Instagram.Pull your head out of your ass, you clown.
>>65068293>you have to clear the position out if you want to fight any other war than a static, attritional slogfest>A slow approach without violence of action gives time and ability for the defender to fight back and organize or retreat in good order. Just as you can throw a grenade at him, he can throw a grenade at you. Today, you're also getting hit by drones.>With speed and aggression you can disjoint and surprise him to an extent where he fails to put up organized resistance and will choose to fuck off and try to fight another day, rather than get picked off one by one.More infantry-centered platitudes and wishful thinking. If you can saturate a trench with a mk19 and choose not to because you want to initiate contact by running into it, you're a retard.>That is, if you're fighting an actual war >other than a static, attritional slogfestThat's what trench warfare is, dumbass. A war of attrition punctuated by rushes PRECEDED by artillery (now drones) to soften the enemy. Which is why I'm advocating for counter-defilade solutions as gap closer.
>>65065558>>65066927
>>65068318>More infantry-centered platitudes and wishful thinking.Even in Ukraine, it's still the infantry who go in and dig the enemy out of his holes. You're out of touch as can be.>If you can saturate a trench with a mk19 and choose not to because you want to initiate contact by running into it, you're a retard.Why are you building strawman arguments like this?>That's what trench warfare is, dumbass.Trench warfare is trench warfare even without attacks. You can wage trench warfare with zero attacks on either side. There is no definition or requirement of>A war of attrition punctuated by rushes PRECEDED by artillery (now drones) to soften the enemy.
>>65068333>Even in Ukraine, it's still the infantry who go in and dig the enemy out of his holesYeah, and note how they do it methodically instead of being all gung-ho like you suggest. Note how they drone it and hit with arty first if they can. >You're out of touch as can be.My guy, literally go to any group of four Ukrainians about to assault a Russian trench and offer them to trade one of their rifles for a M32A1 and 18 grenades. You will not get a "no thanks".>Why are you building strawman arguments like this?Because you tried to come here with platitudes, and vague doctrinal concepts, not actual arguments, and, I'm 100% convinced, zero experience on the matter.>Trench warfare is trench warfare even without attacks. You can wage trench warfare with zero attacks on either side.Says the guy advocating for speed and violence of action? What's your argument here?
>>65067055Not him, but if you're using a Pike, you're probably going after a fixed target at very long range (max range 2000m), which means that the engagement is going to take a little more than a few seconds (albeit probably still under a minute).>>65067189The issue with Switchblade isn't that you have to kneel down to employ it; it's that, as with the Pike, you have to guide it. Yes, you can lock it onto a target as it gets close, but on the other hand, Switchblade is a lot slower-moving than Pike. Neither does quite the same thing as a LAW, which is faster to respond once you get it out.I think we kinda need to go back to first principles on this discussion. What do you need "gone", how far away is it, and how quickly from that determination do you need it removed? Answering those questions should solve a lot of our disagreements, because we're probably thinking of different scenarios/use cases. My thinking is that PGS is intended to eliminate enemy infantry threats which are beyond hand grenade range (i.e., "35-500m") and which are taking cover and difficult to deal with using direct fire, so some rapid, accurate application of HE is required. This could be done by calling in fires/air (especially now with PGK/PGMM or APKWS), but a GL is much quicker to achieve results because it only requires a verbal command to the grenadier (if even that). Now, is that use case sufficient enough to pay the price (going back to a dedicated GL, one that's even heavier than the old M79)? That's what we're trying to wrap our heads around. Remember that infantry holding CPs or on the march loved the XM-25, whereas the Rangers hated it because they were doing snatch'n'grabs where it was dead weight and one less rifle.
>>65067764Then they're in hand grenade range.
>>65068140To his point, though, there are only 4 guys in a US rifle team. Team leader, SAW, grenadier, and rifleman. Who gets to follow the rifleman into the door/trench?
>>65068249>>65068258Remember that the Rangers were doing specialized assaults on houses and compounds at night, operating at close range. That's not a mission that really *needs* a dedicated GL, because for starters most of the action occurred within the GL's arming distance. Change the mission, you change the tools best suited for the unit.
>>65068526Wait, wait, wait, now just hold on a minute here!Are you saying that there is nuance? That context has a determinate effect? Just who the fuck do you think you are talking to? This doesn't sound like any /k/ I want to be a part of!
>>65068551I know, but some of y'all are pretty chill, just don't come to school tomorrow, y'know? Heck, a day or two ago we had an OP ask a question and it got thoroughly explained to them and they thanked the other posters for it! What is this board coming to?
>>65066969Tau are faggots and tau fanboys are bigger faggots.
>>65068526SWAT raids have no place in a proper shooting war
>>65068516>>65068526The concept that grunts are going to do Tier 1- style CQB raids, or going door to door like in Fallujah is really outdated.The western doctrine cannot tolerate the risk that comes with doing CQB with just carbines to clear random houses. Light shields, nades, and ground/air drones are already being manufactured specifically for that purpose.
>>65066969mossa sucks also
>a Grenadier team>meant to team up with two more typical fireteams where such numbers where needed>all loaded open with whatever the modern replacement for the China lake will be, on a 2:1 basis of riflemen to grenadiers>the typical fire team has its grenadiers replaced with automatic riflemenI also dream of every fireteam having 3 forms, one where the guns are all belt and mag fed, one where the rifles are all light including a outwardly identical designated marksman rifle, and yet another similar to the first but where the rifles are all actually larger caliber machine guns.
>>65067215>>65067242>>65067303Satchel Charges are absolutely still a thing.Satchel Charge my beloved.
>>65069174>the modern replacement for the China lakeGuy they only made like 2 dozen of those.
>>65065582We lost another good soldier to the CQC mind virus.o7
>>65065814Gun points hither.Optic point dithers.
>>65065812>except for the parts that actually distinguish bolters from ordinary firearms, it's totally a bolterBehold, a plasma grenade.
>>65069207The dream of the disembodied concept lives on: grenades shucked everywhere.
>>65065558i shit on China because they're bitches who can't do anything good
>>65065558The rifleman is the core of everything , anything else is cope.Automatic rifling is pure sex and honorary btw
>>65065582he will be shooting proximity bombs at drone so he will be working overtime
>>65067943>China introduces a 30lbs grenade rifle designed for long range shooting using high velocity rounds>/k/ questions the practicality compared to anti-materiel rifles and mortars>China seethes>USA trials 15lbs low-velocity grenade rifles designed for average engagement ranges >/k/ questions the practicality compared to existing grenades and grenade launchers, and how it would work with existing infantry doctrine>China seethesWhat the fuck do you want from us? If I wanted to put up with unpleasable bitching out of China I'd never have dumped my ex.
>>65065626Seems like a textbook use case for a P90 or MP7.
>>65069413The Magpul PDR being 5.56mm makes it the more sensible logistical choice for a NATO army. It's basically the same size as a p90, but way more powerful.
>>65066929>Very low effort upscaled AR10s in plastic shellsThe Barrett has a recoiling barrel. Also, rotating bolts and gas operation works, you faggot, and is the sensible direction when the entire premise is to be able to shoot grenades like you were shooting a rifle.That said, the SSW40 is very cool and innovative, I agree there.>>65065839The board used to be a lot more fun 15+ years ago.>>65067055>nobody likes themNot true.
>>65067105Did you drink too much mercury? Do you actually not understand the differing contexts and roles?
>>65068265>because UBGLs are even worse How?>nobody uses the 302 attached to the gun anymoreBecause it's fucking enormous when you do that, as the M302 is designed to be a dedicated launcher first and foremost, and thus has all the shit for that and then just attaches to a rail.Meanwhile, a proper underbarrel launcher can be half the weight and bulk, because it doesn't need a separate stock or grip.
>>65069691>How?By putting the weight on a rifle and making the rifle worseBy making it so you have to tank the recoil in an awkward way because it's not perfectly in line with the stock and a stock set to fire a rifle will be at the wrong angle to fire a grenade launcher in a parabolaby having whatever aiming system you're using really far out, off side or otherwise not able to aim the grenades high enough
>>65069701>By putting the weight on a rifle and making the rifle worseAs opposed to the weight of PEQs and lights?>By making it so you have to tank the recoil in an awkward wayLiterally not an issue, 40x46mm doesn't recoil harshly, and you're firing only the one shot.>by having whatever aiming system you're using really far out, off side or otherwise not able to aim the grenades high enoughAside from being able to just eyeball 40x46mm, and skipping sighting altogether, I don't think you have much imagination, and I also think you're really overestimating that issue.
>>65065582the whole reason its being resurrected is to shoot down FPVs, which is a 24/7 job. small minded niggers ITT fixating in the grenadier being unable to pie corners inside structures while missing the obvious reality that without him and his capability, the whole fireteam get featured in a killcam montage and rot in the sun before ever reaching the target building. Like another guy pointed out, its a whole new MOS.
>>65069726>As opposed to the weight of PEQs and lights?Which is why people have been making those lighter and lighter if they can and not putting them on everything every time if they don't need to. Are you trying to argue nobody's got a problem with weight?>Literally not an issue, 40x46mm doesn't recoil harshly, and you're firing only the one shot.>Aside from being able to just eyeball 40x46mm, and skipping sighting altogether, I don't think you have much imagination, and I also think you're really overestimating that issue.Shooting 40mm accurately is the entire fucking point of using it as a force multiplier. You can't eyeball a grenade into a window several hundred yards away. Ukrainian soldiers who are using these for the most real shit possible, more intense and more indepth than even American troops, and they say being able to whip them out and fire them comfortably and accurately is the main reason they use them over just using rocket launchers. Being able to fire them upwards into the windows of buildings.
>>65069726The standalone launchers have been gaining steam just because there's very few situations where you have to rapidly switch between blooping and blasting (you have friends to do the blasting while you're blooping) that actually necessitate fixing it awkwardly underbarrel when you could just have something standalone slung at the ready that can do the blooping more handily when blooping is needed, leaving the boomstick alone to do it's job unimpeded.
>>65065550Just give them the Overkill perk so they can carry a rifle too.
>>65065626It'll be a cold day in hell when they start issuing memepups. The M4 is compact enough.
>>65067156They're kinda both. Somehow it seems like bolter = gyrojet is the one piece of lore that's penetrated into the gun community at large, but they also have a regular casing and powder and the projectile is usually explosive. They're smaller caliber than grenade launchers (about 20mm on paper, though visual depictions make them much larger than that) but overall they've actually got more in common with one of these "small caliber" 25mm or 30mm launchers than they do with a Gyrojet.
>>65065585They have HMG's that weigh as much as an GPMG though (QJZ-171 at 26.24 lb), that's why they don't bother with a medium caliber machineguns
>>65069893Sure. I was thinking more in hi-lo versus gyrojet with a booster charge rather than the actual projectile given you can have HE spotter rounds with conventional ammo. AFAIK 40k lore has different bolter rounds down to solid AP as well.
>>65070104This stupid fucking memegun again. It weighs a bit over 25kg with optic and a 60 round belt, and it will OOB if you try to shoot normal ammo through it instead of its special lightweight ammo. It's not a replacement for a GPMG or a proper HMG. It's its own thing, which probably has a niche somewhere but not a big enough one that anyone else ever bothered to fuck with the concept.
>>65069211>>65069205>>65069198Anon I don't know how to tell you thisBut the engineers lied to you when they said you could solve all problems with explosives
>>65070222>Engineers liedIt was a soft lie. Explosives to turn big problems into smaller, more manageable problem smithereens. Remember the TNT whale cleanup.
>>65066927>Chinks replaced the machinegunner, the US is replacing the squad grenadier. You might want to consider why these are differentChinks replace the machinegunner with a 35 mm agl and americans replace the grenadier with a 30 mm agl. Chink agl is long recoil with computerized targeting and a compact circular magazine, american agl is just a regular upscaled gas action rifle with a clumsy box magazine. In terms of refinement, the chinks are clearly ahead. BTW there was a silly swedish project consisting of a micro carl gustaf in 45 mm caliber with a 5.56 rifle attached, ofc it went nowhere as it was too large and too clumsy and too heavy and too low rate of fire.
>>65065620The Soviets didn’t care about Hearts and Minds in Afghanistan and they still lost, you have child-like understanding of strategy
>>65065550Keltec LRPtakes AR mags and ammobut cute to see US Army is catching up to PLA sniper grenade system.
>>65065681>corncreteImma gonna use corn-cobs to build a corncrete housejust like in Chinawhere do I get a semi load of cobs dropped?
>>65069727>the whole reason its being resurrected is to shoot down FPVsLots of friendly fire to be had there.
>>65069701>By making it so you have to tank the recoil in an awkward wayHaving heaver launcher (UBG + rifle weight) makes felt recoil (free recoil energy) much less.
>>65070207>AFAIK 40k lore has different bolter rounds down to solid AP as well.Yeah, that's why I said "usually explosive." I think they have the inverse as well, shells that give up the gyrojet for more explosive capacity at the expense of range. I think you can also look at bolters less as a gyrojet with a booster and more as a normal smallbore launcher with a gyrojet range extender. They're probably not hi-lo but I'm not sure the new 30mm is either, from what I can tell the XM-25 wasn't and the much higher velocity of the MTL-30, plus the fact that it works in a semiauto action (something that doesn't seem to be possible with regular 40mm) makes me think it's conventional as well.
>>65070440>In terms of refinement, the chinks are clearly ahead.The chink grenade launcher has the optic mounted on a spring so it doesn't kill the operator when it smashes him in the face with the ridiculous recoil. That doesn't seem particularly refined to me.
>>65070104YOU'RE STILL LIMITING YOURSELF SHITLOADS WITH HOW MUCH AMMO YOU CAN BRING
>>65065499Kinda cool but in the modern environment should the grenadier be replaced with an anti-drone guy? Just have his spot filled by under barrel launchers for the rest of the squad.
>>65070216>and it will OOB if you try to shoot normal ammo through it instead of its special lightweight ammoWait, so it's a cucked .50? LMAO
It won't be procured and deployedAlso look at how far he can see just in the picture, from flat ground500 yards is not adequate range
>>65071152Yeah it'd be like chambering a beltfed in .50 Beowulf or something and bragging about your "lightweight HMG."
>>65069763>very few situations where you have to rapidly switch between blooping and blasting (you have friends to do the blasting while you're blooping)This is exactly what annoys me about the doomers in these threads. Anons think the enemy is going to wait for you to shoot your 5+1 of 30mm grenades and then pop out for an easy kill. That's not how this works, squads and platoons are a system built to work together. The second he pops his head out he is going to get blown the fuck out by the guys who have been aiming their carbines at the opening for the last 5 minutes.
>>65070440>Chinks replace the machinegunner with a 35 mm agl and americans replace the grenadier with a 30 mm agl. You don't see the difference there?>Chink agl is long recoil with computerized targeting and a compact circular magazine, american agl is just a regular upscaled gas action rifle with a clumsy box magazine. The Barrett/Mars 30mm grenade rifle uses a long-recoil action with a pneumatic recoil buffer, not a gas piston (not that there's anything wrong with pistons). Barrett are also testing multiple different computerized targetting optics (and so are Colt-Northropp, which they are co-operating with).You REALLY don't know anything about the American system at all, yet you're so confident.For drums, there's pros and cons to that, there's very real reasons to go with flat, light, and reliable 5rd box mags.Since the American PGS isn't intended to do suppressing fire, it's literally fine if it has a 5+1rd capacity, they're grenades.>In terms of refinement, the chinks are clearly ahead. lmao, no, at the hypothetical worst there's parity on the individual gun itself, but Chinese doctrine with theirs is absurd.
>>65071152I'm not actually 100% on that, I had read that it was API blowback, which would make sense because it's lightweight and reduces recoil, but the drawback is that it's very sensitive to the load and has a narrow operating range between short stroking and opening prematurely. However, looking it up again the only place I see that now is on Wikipedia and the listed source doesn't say anything about the operating principle.The claimed weight is definitely a meme though, it's based on an official statement that it's 9.5 kg lighter than the older QJZ-89, but that figure is for the complete weapon system including the tripod, optic, and 300 rounds of ammunition. The gun itself is actually 1 kg heavier than the QJZ-89, most of the weight savings are in the ammo and tripod.
>>65071216>it's literally fine if it has a 5+1rd capacityIt would be better if it was open bolt with 5+0 capacity. Then you wouldn't have to clear the chambered cartridge when you swap magazines for a different payload. I'm not actually sure how they're designed though, maybe they are like that.
>>65071226Anon, they want precision at range, open bolt would be counterproductive for that.
>>65071242>muh extra 10ms lock timeSkill issue, git gud.
>>65071252This nigga shoots with matchlocks.
>>65071252It's not just lock time, bro.
>>65071260Okay, what else is it? >inb4 assuming that all open bolt guns are straight blowback fixed firing pin poverty shit
>>65065499It all depends on how easy it is to make it function again if problems occurs.
>>65071272You don't think the weight of the bolt shifting the gun has an effect? Especially after you have pulled the trigger? That shit will make it harder, that's objectively the case.You can learn to shoot with that, but you shouldn't fucking have to for something intended for precision at range (marksmen sure as fuck don't), it's completely idiosyncratic and retarded, especially when your notion for single loading can just be satisfied with a bolt hold-open.
>>65071216>but Chinese doctrine with theirs is absurd.As folks have pointed out - those are for taking out pajeet Tercios in the Himalayan. It's a mountain cannon at best and at worst, it's a brain fart coming from a load similar to the SPEAR rifles.
>>65071272You have never fired an open bolt gun in your life. And more than likely never handled any gun in your life, period.
>>65071319>That shit will make it harder, that's objectively the case.Git gud>>65071319>especially when your notion for single loading can just be satisfied with a bolt hold-open.I'm not talking about single loading, try reading my post again.
>>65071374>Then you wouldn't have to clear the chambered cartridge when you swap magazines for a different payload. Not an appreciably better idea.
>>65065499The Chinese one is better because 35mm > 30mm
>>65069487They're close but the PDR is still bigger and you'd have to deal with more ammo bulk and weight. (Maybe ameliorated by how much easier of a shape the AR mag is to deal with though.) Really though I shouldn't have even suggested the P90. Anybody who's ever had to do shit with a slung rifle/carbine knows how much it sucks and it'd be even worse with two slung weapons. The MP7 makes way more sense because it can be carried in a holster.
>>65071413Meh, they can always go fully Elbonia and reduce the explosive filler.
>>65065499Probably not that effective in combat over cheaper options like an rpg7 and America is probably paying 2.84 millon per grenade and 2 trillion per tube
>>65065499I thought that gun already existed, was incredibly effective but was faded out because it was a warcrime or something.
>>65065499I'm allowed to own this per the second amendment
>>65071833>Probably not that effective in combat over cheaper options like an rpg7 Holy fuck, stop posting, you fat retard.>>65071878You're thinking of the XM25 CDTE, which was the forerunner. It wasn't a warcrime, H&K just made up some bullshit to weasel out of a committent, and this was also after funding for the program was pulled during budget cuts. There was also one time someone was lightly injured from an out of battery detonation, and that was cited as an added excuse.As for effectiveness, it worked, did its thing like it was supposed to, and a LOT of people really liked it, but the sentiment was generally that the grenades were a bit small and not powerful enough.The new PGS trials are more or less a resurrection of the CDTE project (which came out of the OICW project), just with more modern technology and aiming to address faults, and also to make them more versatile.
>>65068265That's because the 320 has garbage ergonomics and is a full pound heavier than it needs to be. If it wasn't for the side-loading it would be a straight downgrade from the 203.
>>65072329It's getting sales anyway because HK just throws them in as a deal package with 416s and whatever else they sell. The only other thing they have going for them is that they have really short barrels, almost unreasonably short for 40mm.Personally, i like the FN one because it slides AND pivots.
>>65069763>The standalone launchers have been gaining steamOnly when it involves 320s because they suck.
>>65072350>because HK just throws them in as a deal package with 416s and whatever else they sellWhich, in fairness is a good deal to get a bunch of decent and compact standalone launchers.>i like the FN one because it slides AND pivots.I like the sound of that.
>>65072350It's also designed to fit well as an UGL. Clearly a superior design.>>65072371If you're strapped for cash, sure, but adopting an overweight and unergonomic GL that basically forces you to give up using it as UGL is not a good deal at all. It's both shorter barreled and heavier than the 203. There's simply no excuse for adopting something so subpar as a first rate military.
>>65072381Oh yeah, it's absolutely inferior to proper UBLs.
>>65065550>>65065626Something like the bushmaster arm, in terms of an ultracompact 5.56 bullpup that's only used for extreme situations
>>65072430and what happens when you want to accurately hit a target 500 yards out, or fire shots rapidly...UBL launchers are shit for a proper shooting war
>>65072460>and what happens when you want to accurately hit a target 500 yards out, or fire shots rapidly...M32A1 with MV 40mm
>>65071434Something like the ergonomics of a MP-7 with an intermediate CT round would probably work.
>>65072586They still haven't worked out CT yet.>>65072460Well, that'd be what an MGL would be for (like the Milkor or Rheinmetall), not something like the fucking M320.
>>65072586This whole retarded line of thought inevitably leads to making an obese turd with the launcher carrying an underslung carbine/PDW like the fucking OICW.
>>65072599One of H&K's ideas for the OICW was unironically to just attach an MP7 underneath the airburst launcher. This would have been both much better yet also much worse.
>>65072602>underslung SMG for your grenade launcherthat's like the shit you can only imagine being proposed herenext we shall have a laser target designator with an underslung riflea tank armed with machine-guns and a tripod-mounted cannon on the roofa cruise missile that launches manned fighter jetsa sonar buoy that launches a disposable helicopter
>>65072597The LSAT and CTSAS programs put tens of thousands of 5.56 and 7.62 CT rounds through a number of rifles, carbines, and SAWs. Everything worked fine until the NGSW program changed the requirement to an absurd 6.8 magnum.
>>65072671I'm not talking about reliability, they got that down, but rather that accuracy is apparently not as good as they have hoped yet (you've essentially got a bunch of freebore inside the telescoped case itself).They might still solve that, of course, but I'm just saying it's not finished.
>>65072697>rather that accuracy is apparently not as good as they have hoped yet (you've essentially got a bunch of freebore inside the telescoped case itself).Baseless speculation, the head of the LSAT program says (post-NGSW, so no reason to lie) it's not an issue because the cap stabilizes and guide the bullet through the freebore as it passes through. The reality is that both of Sig's competitors were big MIC prime contractors that dropped out of the program at roughly the same time, without a public statement from either of them. It almost certainly had to do with contract terms and not performance; the competition hadn't even happened at that point.
>>65072317Yup, that's the one. Fat Electrician lied about the "detonate inside someone" part?Sorry, I am a tourist. Sightseeing. I like what I see.
>>65072780The "warcrime" discussion was about the ethics of designing a counter-defillade weapon, meaning something built specifically to shoot at targets you can't see. What if it's a child with a dog behind the wall and not a terrorist with an AK?Obviously it was all bullshit because if you were a little closer you could just toss a hand grenade instead, and no one has banned hand grenades.
>>65072780Well, the XM-25 had multiple fusing options, including timed airburst, impact, and delayed impact. The last would be intended for use against things like walls or unarmored/very-lightly-armored vehicles.Now, if a grenadier were to select delayed impact, and then bullseye a person... well, that would be a waste of a grenade, as well as a fig leaf for claiming "IT COULD POSSIBLY BE USED TO VIOLATE HAGUE!". I guess. That's *really* pushing it, though. The whole point of HE is to hit multiple enemies with fragments, not to perform a Hollywood special effect on one guy.
>>65071350Absolutely this.
>>65065499The interesting part is the ammunition. It uses "smart" grenades with proximity fuses or programmable airbust. No doubt they will develop other grenade types for it like HEAT maybe.
Unironically it's going to be a squad level weapon, 1 per squad because you can carry airburst rounds to counter drones, nothing else at the squad level is going to be better than a full auto grenade launcher loaded with airburst fragmentation for taking down drones.
>>65072740>it's not an issueUntil they started to shoot actual 6.8 GP bullet instead of surrogate projectile. After that Textron immediately flopped out of program.
>>65073168And General Dynamics dropped out at the same time, so I guess that's proof that normal non-telescoped cartridges aren't ready for primetime.
>>65070440>micro carl gustaf in 45 mm caliberFucking want. Hell I want a regular ol' carl gustaf in the first place. I wish I could import one as a "high altitude flare gun" like the 37mm signalling devices currently out there.
>>65070691You joke but I saw a farmer make a "corncrete" composite storage cabin as an experiment in Pennsylvania.If you've ever seen cordwood construction (pic related), he basically did the same thing, just layers of cobs bedded in mortar, with solid faces, not open. Because there were all these lightweight voids inside the concrete, it acted as pretty decent insulation, at least compared to solid concrete, which transfers heat much faster.
>>65073220cormcrete
>>65073220Seems like it would decay fast.
>>65077794If you cover it properly, and keep moisture out, it'S rather sturdy and long lasting.Like so many things the proper techniques are the key. Just slapping it down in an afternoon, plastering over the cracks, attaching the Mandarin's Seal of Approval, and hoping for the best (i.e. the Chiese method of doing everything) is not going ot work.You end up with bags of concrete stacked without mortar, corncobs piled up and palstered over, and everything crumbling and collapsing on LiveLeak.I still hate them for shutting that down. There can be no peace until we get it back.
>>65065812>>65065786But it's not a bolter since it's not meant to be used as one.A bolter has more in common with an autocanon than a grenade launcher
>>65072460>accurately hit a target 500 yards outNothing precludes an UBL from doing that. The 320 keeps the same ladder sight and you're not getting "rapid fire" either way.
>>65078275B-but, muh H&K!
>>65081679Based samefag
>it's yet another thread where chang tries every trick in the book to convince people that completely dropping machine gunners in favor of extra grenadiers was a good idea
>>65067267>>65067269Based Chinks
>>65070104This is pants on head retarded, just go down to .338 or other magnum rifle rounds.
>>65081990cite your practical year 2020+ infantry combat experience to claim one way or the other
>>65073217>Hell I want a regular ol' carl gustaf in the first place.Carl gustafs give you TBI from the massive blast. The effect stacks with use. We had a thread about this a year ago.
>>65083940You just need to give the gunner a special helmet to help with that.
>>65072597Rotary magazine AGLs are an abortion caused by using rimmed ammunition originally intended for break open single shot launchers. The Mk19 could have been designed to be lighter and have more manageble recoil if it was not using rimmed ammo. John Browning was peak american gun design and that was 100+ years ago. It has been downhill ever since. Americans are not interested in the Machine as an object of art.
>>65083948>You just need to give the gunner a special helmet to help with that.I am not so sure about that, even M777 crews end up with cripping TBI from the backflow from the big muzzle brake and they are standing _behind_ the gun several meters from the muzzle when it fires. I think TBI is something that is more common than people think. Due to advancement in medicine and technology, we can actually do TBI studies now on living people, but as far as I know, nobody has done that. Its not just military related, f.ex american football is a sport that generates a very large amount of TBIs. And so is boxing (which is why it was outlawed in some places in Europe). And I guess MMA too.
>>65083826HMG's cartridges are large enough to have special-purpose bullets in them. Anything from stuff like SLAP to incendiary bullets, or even explosive rounds, it's better to have the larger round.These Chinese light HMGs are weapons for their mountain troops, where the basic idea is to just get an HMG up there with the troops. Obvious cost in performance caused by the ease of getting it there, but with smart scopes, networking, drones, etc. it might actually work just fine.
>>65083949>work of artI carried an M60 for the better part of 8 years, a hundred years ago. Despite putting tens of thousands of rounds through them, I had. exactly malfunctions the entire time I was a gunner. And both of them were with blank ammunition during training problems. I'd still be humping that bitch, if the law would allow it. Now, you could argue quite a bit of that design was lifted from zee Germans, and you'd be correct. But the end product was American and it lasted for decades for a reason. While it was certainly ugly as fuck, it sure would paint a pretty picture.
>>65083973>>65083969>2 malfunctions
>>65083961>I am not so sure about that, even M777 crews end up with cripping TBI from the backflow from the big muzzle brake and they are standing _behind_ the gun several meters from the muzzle when it fires.It's still the lack of a protective helmet that's at fault.Artillerymen and recoilless rifle gunners 100% need a specialist helmet built to protect against blast waves, instead of shrapnel, fragmentation and some bullets, like military helmets generally are. These weapons fundamentally don't allow their gunners to operate in the long-term without getting TBI, unless they have a larger, heavier, more protective helmet around their head.https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/protecting-warfighters-from-blast-injury
more procurement doctrine seethe required
>>65083984>Artillerymen and recoilless rifle gunners 100% need a specialist helmet built to protect against blast waves,Doesnt everyone need it? TBI is not just limited to artillerymen, its also common in infantry that survive close detonations.
>>65083849You know what they're using for suppressing fire in Ukraine? Machineguns, not grenade launchers, you faggot fuck.
>>65065528How many dicks I have to suck off to get to shoot one of these, preferably the Rheinmetall one?
>>65083949It's not a magazine, it's a revolver cylinder, you niggtard, and it's both much shorter and less bulky than a 6rd box mag of 40mm, and also completely agnostic to cartridge load power, it'll cycle to the next shot regardless.>>65083973The M60's biggest problems overall was always that they were not built strong enough to be truly long lived. They were always pretty well liked by people who got brand new ones, rather than one which has been put through the ringer by who knows how many other grunts for 20 years.Conceptually, they were always pretty solid, and that shines through when the gun is brand new, or when it has been well taken care of by prior users.
>>65067764>Arming distanceThen you just shoot him with the grenade anyway? Armed or no, getting hit by one of those things has to suck.
>>65089999If you receive a second TBI before the first one has healed (as much as it can) the effects of the second one are many times more severe.
>>65065558When the Chinks did it, they were attempting to copy the XM25. When the Americans redid it, they did so as a tool to defeat drones mainly, but also integrate IDF capabilities into the rifle platoon without the use of mortars.>>65065550Fucking why? You have an entire platoon of rifleman, might as well say the M240 and M249 gunners need an M4.
I wanna load a Milkor with 6 of these.
What do Ukrainian troops think of UBLs vs standalone? I bet they've used MGL type stuff too.
>>65065528>Rheinmetall> SSW40> aka HAMMR>is a wannabe bolter from Warhammer 40kThese writers man...
>>65065550They should revive the Colt SCAMP and replace all the dogshit SIG Pistols with it.
>>65070680lollmao
>>65065550FK BRNO or tell FN to make a burst 5.7 with extendo mags and 8 inch barrel
it seems like yet another attempt to make grenade launchers cool, then everyone will remember that they don't want to spend 3k per shot on some programmable meme grenade.
>>65099468Yes, if it isn't fire and forget, then it generally is too complex for people who're being shot at.
>>65066929Just muzzle load them LOLseriously
Why are people shitting on this? If you blow everybody up don't you just win every time?Why bother with rifles at all? Give every man in the squad one of these and blow everyone up.
>>65067866>the grenade charges were designed to be used in this way from the startNo, not really.The stick grenade by design is an 'offensive' styled grenade. Minimal fragmentation, decent sized boom. The design was that way for that reason.
>>65102656>Why are people shitting on this?Who is?
>>65065582GWOT doorkicking enthusiast.Just fuckin JDAM the building.
>>65069198brings me back to the Gulf War games on PC where every time you had to get into a building BLAST THE WALL!Door, rightt there 3 feet away, hanging open, BLAST THE WALL!
>>65103877If bombing literally everything flat was actually desirable in every instance, then we wouldn't have trended away from city sized nuclear weapons towards smaller tactical ones.Sometimes there's shit you want to fucking capture, you niggerfaggot.
>>65103883The reason we have many small nukes rather than one big one is LITERALLY to successfully flatten more shit.I swear /k/ has the lowest IQs of all boards. Someone is going to come out of the woodwork too and claim this makes sense, which makes it even more frustrating.
>>65103883If the target is so sensitive and fragile that a few 30mm grenades to clear it is unacceptable overkill, you MUST doorkick or it's mission failure, then that's not a job for basic infantry.
Are these grenades effective? Does it make enough of an explosion to kill or suppress people on an open field?These grenades look tiny.
>>65103899Anon, the retard said to just JDAM the building, ergo level it with the fucking ground.That'll absolutely be viable in some cases, but fucking retarded and counterproductive if it's anything you'd actually want to capture.
>>65103904If the data from testing is to be believed, then yeah they are fairly deadly with a surprising radius.
>>65103904Probably smaller than 40mm, but better than 25mm. Part of the idea is also that correcting shots are trivial with these, so if you needed to, it should not be difficult to make a second hit right away.
>>65091858>they were attempting to copy the XM25Timeline doesn't work out for this. The first generation of their grenade launchers entered service like 20 years before the XM25, and the most recent one was fully adopted and entered into mass production when the XM25 had just begun early evaluations.>>65066927...they did not. Their grenade "snipers" are platoon- or company-level assets.
>>65103951They also use GMGs suppression.
It's out, someone make a new threadhttps://youtu.be/u1Cq-CzuBQs?si=5229EdARqsycBsbU
