What the fuck were they thinking? Is this just another excuse to give the Sigraelis contracts?
>>65084741I still really don't believe it's actually happening because they only ordered 110,000 of them through 2032 (!)Every time the US changed service rifles in the past, they started by ordering at least two million of them
20th failed M4/Gas Piston hybrid replacement gun award.Should of just consulted with H&K award.We spend big money on the Scar and now were trashing it award
>>65084741You could give SIG contracts and stay with an M4 replacement.
>>65084741https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF7T1vTvSdAIt looks cool at least, maybe i'm overreading into it, but these grunts look gassed lugging them around
>>65084752They’ve only switched over for select units and they’re doing it by brigade. I know they’ve made their way to the 101st and 82nd, but pogs are just gonna keep their M4s. I can tell you as a jumpy boy these things do not hold up in the airborne. Multiple reports of the stocks breaking in MAWCs, the goyim superscope doesnt hold zero after landing (not to mention almost nobody has them anyway, basically all of us are running conventional LPVOs or Eotechs w/ magnifiers, which were purchased brand new for the XM7 we didn’t have them before). Thankfully the BDE that’s deploying doesn’t have them yet, I genuinely believe this thing will get people killed
>what the fuck were they thinkingThe feds? Probably something like "the amerigolem tax cattle keep paying us for some reason, so we might as well continue to have fun"
>>65084741>Is this just another excuse to give the Sigraelis contracts?It was exactly that, but also because the program was built for the last war while relying on conclusions drawn from an assessment with obvious bullshit methodology. The other two entries would have been better but still highly problematic. That said, it's likely to be sidelined or outright dropped the moment the US has to engage in a large scale ground war. That's a fate that has befallen several rifle and caliber replacement programs in multiple different countries.
>>65084759I don’t even care that it’s short stroke, the much bigger issues are the fact that it’s 11 fucking pounds and the ammo is twice the weight for 70 less rounds than an M4 ubl. It’s like we’ve just spat in the face of every lesson we’ve learned since WWII
>Army gets bullied for always running programs for transformational small arms and never adopting any of them>Decide that the new one has to use a substantially different cartridge so that it can't be compared against the M4 (because the M4 would win again)>Set up their new program so that they have to adopt whichever one wins, even if it's actual dogshit>Downselect two big MIC prime contractors and a very motivated gun manufacturer>Gun manufacturer offers to sell guns and parts instead of extended warranties and maintenance contracts>Primes aren't interested, not enough pork in selling gun and parts, both drop out>Ammo startup buys rights to one of the guns, offers decent terms, competition is back on>Obviously the overgrown M4 beats the overcomplicated piece of shit abandoned by its designers and offered by a company that doesn't even make gunsAnd that's the story. This is what "fixing procurement red tape" looks like. It turns out that all of that testing and validation crap was useful after all.
>>65084741Not joking ab the “sigraeli” btw
>>65084741It's an overestimation of Russia's ability to produce ANY form of body armor for their soldiers while also being sure of the need to penetrate untested Chinese body army while at the same time being paranoid about the next big conflict being filled with drug-addled footsoldiers that won't drop dead the moment you put a couple of 556 into their chest.
>>65084789adding 4 pounds to the rifle means you only realistically take 4 pounds away from gear. its a pill that is hard to swallow, but you can only carry so much weight.
>>65084800Which they've already done. They're switching to standalone LSAPI plates from ESAPIs. These are 3.5lb with no required soft armor versus 5lb not counting soft armor, so there's your four pounds not even counting side plates.The LSAPIs are relatively flimsy versus modern ESAPIs. At best, M80 + M855A1 + BZ API. They'll fold to any decent 7.62x54R API unless velocity is low.>>65084798>while also being sure of the need to penetrate untested Chinese body armyChinese armor is actually quite good and you can go on youtube to verify this very easily. Do you have any idea how much of the domestic US armor industry uses Chinese materials? Obviously the big guys don't (Ceradyne, BAE, LTC, Tencate, Hesco, Highcom, RMA, etc), but almost all of the small time shops do.
>>65084791True, every attempt to replace the M4 has ended in the conclusion that the rifle is straight up worse (ahem SCAR) or not better enough than the M4 to be worth replacing. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was just an excuse to make a set of vastly different requirements that make it impossible to keep the M4. What the game plan is once everybody who’s important enough for their opinion to matter hates it, I have no idea.
>>65084798There was reporting about mass adoption of body armor by the PLA (hundreds of thousands of units) over 10 years ago. my guess is that that armor was tested and did in fact defeat US 5.56 at the time causing a panic that was exploited by SIG USA.
>>65084815Their current 5.8 round, DBP191, is comparable to or superior to M855A1. People tend to vastly overcomplicate how difficult it is to make plates.Gilliam Technical Services is literally two boomers in a garage making plates and as far as I've seen they do a decent job. They use a mix of Chinese, American, and Italian materials. Plates are just a strike face, crack arrestor, and backer adhered together and wrapped. Not that complicated people. Hell, anons have been making plates at home for years.If the Chinese can manufacture cars and phones they can easily manufacture plates.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q7LkcW_NQY
>>65084800It’s not 4 pounds heavier because it’s piston driven, it’s 4 pounds heavier because it’s a cartridge that’s twice the size and pressure of 5.56 with a bunch of extra bullshit features nobody wanted>2 charging handles >folding stock >absurdly thick barrel (which was shortened and lightened on the XM7A1/XM8 or whatever they’re calling it) >gigantic flow through suppressor Compare an M4, 6.8 lbs unloaded, to the M27 the marines are using, which is 7.7 lbs unloaded (both with no attachments). The M27 has a 1.5” longer barrel in a heavier profile which is probably where the majority of the extra weight comes from, the piston itself barely makes up for any extra weight
>>65084783>the goyim superscopethanks anon for the informative post
>>65084824>because it’s a cartridge that’s twice the size and pressure of 5.56And pops body armor more reliably and at greater standoff. People tend to conflate requirements so I'm going to lay this down here. There are two loads the Army has adopted. XM1186, which is steel core and comparable to M80A1, is going to have a lot more authority against ceramic plates only able to defeat M855A1. It is not going to reliably bust Level IV. XM1184 is tungsten core, similar to 7.62x51mm M1158 ADVAP which is the M993 replacement, and will reliably clear MOST Level IV plates.If it's up against newer Chinese plates using SiC-TiB2 strike faces it might run into trouble, but I haven't seen those actually enter PLA service (if they are, it's on an SOF basis).Another point is that 5.56 AP, even the tungsten core business like M995 / AP4, does not reliably clear Level IV plates. Only boron carbide, and they're taking advantage of a specific "amorphization" failure that makes boron carbide weak to WC penetrators.
>>65084834>blahblahblahNot needed for most infantry and CQB encounters
>>65084843I was just laying down the rationale. I'm actually of the belief this is ridiculous for close quarters and I'd rather take a lighter gun and a shitload more ammo.My main issue with the focus on body armor is that we're on the cusp of major advancements in armor tech (new ceramics, more advanced UHMWPE) that will enable stronger plates at reasonable weights.The whole M7 program is gonna look like a dunce when the Chinese are able to pump out plates able to stop XM1184.>Aim for the dick!>8x10 groin plate has entered the chat
>>65084848ok point taken anon, thanks for clarifying
>>65084741We have to go back.
>>65084856Not a problem. Interestingly enough, the Chinese now have their own 6.8x50mm tungsten AP. Left side of pic rel. It's been developed allegedly for two reasons.1. To kill XSAPIs.2. To provide a "proxy" for XM1184 that they can use for testing their own plates.The "7N51" on the right is the very latest 7.62x54R AP from Russia, replacing purpose-designed XSAPI buster 7N37. Longer core, more sectional density. M1158 ADVAP and XM1184 take the opposite approach. Smaller core, more velocity. Seems to me they're conceding the high-level body armor problem and focusing more on midweight plates. Note that 7N51 basically only exists on paper, Russia has no ability to mass-manufacture it. This is provable by the apparent non-existence of plates in Ukraine actually able to resist it.Plates are damn useful, but they aren't invincibility shields. Just part of a bigger picture. The M7 treats them like they're the whole picture, but half-assedly.
>>65084795I knew there was something off about Sig fanbois.
>>65084741Liking the AR platform isnt a personality, your favorite lego toy rifle is just being rendered obsolete and you cant deal with that because you attached your ego to it and the military saying your favorite toy is no longer best feels like a personal attack on you. Stop crying and get with the times or accept youre just the next line of m14 boomers refusing to use whats best and youre totally not an obsolete baby
>>65084875>ESL incomprehensible illiterate cope
>>65084834I think you’re vastly overestimating the need to penetrate body armor in the first place. At the ranges where small arms even engagements take place, >300m, the majority of the shooting you’re doing you have no idea what you’re even shooting at. Keeping their heads down and maneuvering is significantly is more important than the ability to penetrate plates, and that’s if you’re even gonna do that and not just call for fire and run away (which, reminder, is the largest cause of casualties since indirect fires were invented, not to mention the day and age of drones). Yeah, maybe in the 1% of engagements where PFC Chucklefuck has a clear shot on the enemy standing still with his plates standing square towards him the 6.8 will do its job, but in the other 99% of engagements where you’re shooting at vague movements in a woodline and the goal is to keep them suppressed, the 6.8 falls flat on its ass with every shoulder carrying 1/3rd less ammo.
>>65084922>>65084848My bad I didn’t see this, and my rant is full of typos. No more dunk posting on /k/
>>65084810>I wouldn’t be surprised if this was just an excuse to make a set of vastly different requirements that make it impossible to keep the M4. It explicitly was, Milley said as much when he vowed to "fix" procurement by just buying things instead of eternally kicking the can down the road. He's also the one responsible for just buying the P320 instead of doing the testing to ensure that it's actually safe and effective.>What the game plan is once everybody who’s important enough for their opinion to matter hates it, I have no idea.That'll be a long time, because people with opinions that matter don't shoot guns.
>>65084870>Just part of a bigger picture. The M7 treats them like they're the whole picture, but half-assedly.It would have to actually penetrate armor for that to be true. It penetrates exactly the same as .308 from a 20" barrel for any given bullet construction.
>>65084922>>65084926All good, it's good conversation anyway. Food for thought, another issue with the M7 is that the new LSAPI is not going to be able to stop XM1186, so the risk of accidental fratricide is dramatically increased. This was actually a major justification for XSAPI back in the day, since M993 out of an M240 would demolish an ESAPI.The plan is switch the close combat force to M7 and LSAPIs, then lean back more to ESAPIs either when threat level goes up or the GEN-IV ESAPIs are out, which are 5lb a pop standalone 3x M2AP / 3x M995 performance. Really great shit but it's gonna be a minute before those are fielded. NSN just got assigned 2/1/25.Even then, won't make a difference to a Shashneed.
>>6508474118" 6.5Fuck all else.
>>65084830Where is your actual rebuttal? Or are you just a passive aggressive sarcastic bitch?
>>65084967>It penetrates exactly the same as .308 from a 20" barrel for any given bullet construction.But the ammo is lighter and with less required barrel length!Frankly they should have just gone with .264 USA if they needed a new cartridge and a larger gun. Split the difference clean between 5.56 and 7.62 with a magnumized 6.5 Grendel. You're not going to be able to penetrate China's finest plates in 2036 with M1184. Fuck it. Focus on the LSAPI-equivalent they'll inevitably cargo cult. Maybe look into a preformed tungsten fragmentation hand grenade, like the Sork K413. Plates don't cover the whole body. Punch their soft armor instead.
>>65084922So then rounds should be optimized for penetrating wood or brush
>>65084791NGSW was awarded well before any serious changes to the RDT&E process
>>65084986Not testing against the current service rifle is absolutely a change to the evaluation process. Imagine if they hadn't tested the ACR against the M4 and just went ahead and adopted the G11 as the standard service rifle.
>Adotps a fucking DMR as an LMGWhy?
>>65084900>AR babby cant readShocking, must be all the lead paint chip you ate as a kid
>>65085008>3.5 moa with match ammo>DMR
>>65084980we got a live one here (I liked the goyim snark)Get killed. <--since (You) chose to be a retard>>65085011>more ESL illiterate dogbarf6.8 and the XM-whateverthefuckitis are put simply, the greatest U.S. military weapon procurement boondoggle of all time in three centuries of existencepost-2009 nuSIG and its products/customer base ought not exist but here it is twenty years laterand yet another /k/ thread about this sub-garbage that is less than worthlessM7 = actual Joke. Idiocracy weapon, the Brawndo Rifle
>>65085008Auto rifle
>>65085021>nooooo theyre wrong im right im rightAlright there bozo, have fun with your obsolete rangetoy while REAL soldiers use the REAL best rifle. Im sure all the people in your life love hear you yapping about how the military is totally wrong and its actually a conspiracy and that your favorite toy is totally the best!
>>65085008>>65085023>>65085016I don't get the M27 hate (I partially get the HK piston-AR 416 etc. hate, but although they're bastard-overweight they are actually reliable and durable weapons)It's an effective rifle for what it is and is chambered in.
>>65085025>'i-i'm an operatur'Get killed fr. this is /k/ Weapons, not /recruiting/ or /vetbros/
>>65085003It got pushed through because it was the pet program of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, during an administration where he was a political darling of the party in power. A guy with a lot of influence pushing a questionable program over the line, or killing something that maybe should’ve lived, has always been a reality of the acquisition process.
>>65085029>noooooo anyone who points out i have a fetish for obsolete trash is just l-larping! Thats right its all a ruse! Only im a billy badass!!!Yup, an AR babby through and through. We're done here, fellas, there wont be any self awareness and reflection happening
>>65084985This was tested during Vietnam due to the same concerns of 5.56 not punching through brush, any spitzer bullet will deflect off branches and leaves regardless of how powerful it is.
>>65085034He was the Army Chief of Staff at the time, but yes.
>>65085037>ARI'm not in /hg/ and that's the cancer of this board. Back to (You)r containment threadI'm not a fan of the M16/AR-15 in particular though I do own a proper 20-inch barrel SP1My semiauto derived-from-select-fire-military rifles are other Stoner/non-Colt manufacturers, chamberings and designsM7 = an actual joke
>>65085049At the start of the program, but I mean where he was when it would’ve been smart to go back to the drawing board.
>>65084974this, 6.5 Grendel already existedand now picrel does
>>65084875The xm7 isn't anything new though. It's a step backwards towards the m14
>>65084798Every Russian soldiers is running level IV chineseum plates (yes they work).It doesn't matter though because plates are police operations meme.
wasn't the argument for the M7 that body armor would be so prevalent in the next war that you'd need a guaranteed penetration and the SIG was the least clunky rifle to deliver that option?I think its retarded anyway, I've seen ukies have absolutely no problem ventilating ziggers with 5.56mm and old 5.45mm Ak's. that being said that one zigger on the toilet years back had to be shot like 50 times before he dropped as he came out running
>>65085365>It's a step backwards towards the m14This, in terms of weight and ammunition alone(not to mention all the other aspects covered itt)
>>65085382This is all speculation, but I would wager the effectiveness of US medevac infrastructure and processes has given the Army a warped view of just how catastrophic something like a popped brachial artery is, and it is effecting their internal decision making negatively.
>>65084810>what is the HK416
>>65085476The Euros will have the better rifle in the next World War.
>>65084741>SigraelisI chuckled
>>65084752Maybe their backup plan is to stick them on the designated marksmen and call it a day.Which makes sense on paper, the gun should perform well in the role, except in reality it's accuracy seems to be pretty mid.
>>65085026it's an RPK but for the west, shit accuracy and overweight compared to a standard 416>i still don't get iti'm going to make you ruck with it and we'll see if you still don't get it, retard
>>65084798>>650848346.8 Can't pierce armor without tungsten A Granit plate without soft armor can survive M80A1 at 3500fps at 45 feet https://youtu.be/bgaQzMjsQo4?si=d7Hc7xaLNvgTJ49dM1186 goes 3100 out of a 16in barrel and the Army is adopting a 10 inch model >Russia can't produce body armor because...because they just can't okay??
>>65084865
>>65084875Where is your actual argument?
>>65085426I think the GWOT skewed legitimate survivability numbers. A guy that got shwacked in Afghanistan would be dustoffed in half an hour and in a role 3 in Germany in under 12 hours. Ukraine though, where the sky is ruled by drones and air superiority is mixed at best, you’re looking at minimum days and sometimes weeks before evac shows up.
>>65084970give them XM7s and LSAPIs, because weight is a myth. Dear god the new combat loadouts gonna weigh 60 pounds
>>65085592M80A1 is a poor penetrator. The steel core is softer than M855A1. GOST-6A os also good for three hits of 7.62x54R B-32 API, which means it's nearly a Level IV plate.XM1186 wil still outperform M855A1 versus lower level ceramics. You need to use XM1184 to defeat Level IV, which is something 5.56 can't do at all except for a few particular boron carbide models.>>65085382The Ukies and Ruskies are either magdumping, which can result in trading kills, or the armor is giving out early because it's either compromised due to a lack of drop protection (this is actually an issue with certain ceramics) or it is exceptionally low grade. Russians are buying very bad white label plates on Aliexpress versus higher end Chinesium like Militech, LiTai, etc.
>>65084848you try running with an 8x10 groin plate. You can armor a man to stop a bullet, but at some point, and with the Chinese government that some point is very ambiguous, it just isn't worth it. The PLAN will send its soldiers out with thick aluminum plate armor for morality
Would 6mm be a better alternative to 5.56 and 6.8?
>>65085761>you try running with an 8x10 groin plate.Ukrainians use that exact groin flap woth 8x10 shooters cut Hesco plates. Not a problem if you're in a trench. Mission dictates gear and you don't run trench raiding gear when you need speed.>and with the Chinese government that some point is very ambiguous, it just isn't worth it.They literally make UHMWPE cheaper than American armor companies get fiberglass, which is 1970s tech. They can very easily outfit their army with alumina-PE plates. They're gonna be shit but they will work most of the time.>The PLAN will send its soldiers out with thick aluminum plate armor for moralityNo, it'll be a new "lightweight" UHMWPE only plate that weighs 2.2lb but folds like a lawn chair to anything steel core or above. Russians are already using PE plates when they are worried more about frag than bullets. The US is actually adopting something similar, the ULWSAPI, but that's for specific purposes when the threat level is very low. Allegedly 3x 7.62x39 MSC and it weighs a pound.
>>65085764Much better energy retention at range, but it can't do the needful against Level IV with tungsten AP. Just not enough core mass.They'd be better off using .264 USA and then really going ham on .338 Norma MGs and DMRs at the team level. There are few plates able to resist tungsten AP of that caliber.
>>65085476Not better than the M4>but my favorite retarded pigtard Valgear says it's great!Ukrainians are dogs who can't even issue lube correctly to their ragtag soldiers, of course they have "issues" with internal piston ARs. Doesn't stop them from using internal piston ARs down the board though and most still report it's super reliable
>>65084875Conversely, hating the AR15 also isn't a personality, which leaves you in a lurch doesnt it
>>65085520Wrong.>weightM7 (OP topic)? Dumb Fuck
>>65085826You know, being able to function in adverse conditions with poor supply is actually a beneficial thing for a service rifle considering that real world experience for most militaries is supply failures.
>>65085782>They literally make UHMWPE cheaper than American armor companies get fiberglass, which is 1970s tech. They can very easily outfit their army with alumina-PE plates.Problem is QC. There's a difference between buying US-market chinkshit and Chinese-market chinkshit, which is that companies having their shit made in China have to send their own QC teams to the factory to not get trolled by their suppliers, and they often have to reject as much as 30-40% of the product before taking possession of it. This problem is endemic to Chinese culture and the PLA can't get around it short of hiring foreign QC teams, which is a security risk in itself.
>>65085025>unironic Sig and MIC shillPost a gun you own
>>65086370>Problem is QC.Agreed. This is the last remaining argument against Chinese armor, and is one I have raised several times in the past against Militech, Adept, Stealth Armor Systems, and Gilliam, which are the top shelf among armor manufacturers using Chinese materials.>There's a difference between buying US-market chinkshit and Chinese-market chinkshitIt's not that simple. US-market chinkshit ranges from really good (Militech, Adept, Gilliam) to really shit (Linry). You have mediocre companies like Longfri, Jinwudun, and Aholdtech in between. You can separate Chinese armor into four grades and this goes for all armor. A-grade, really good, B-grade mediocre, C-grade straight up bad, D-grade horrible.>This problem is endemic to Chinese culture and the PLA can't get around it short of hiring foreign QC teams, which is a security risk in itself.All they really have to do is copy the NIJ but execute factory heads or other appropriate officials like they did the J-20 designer instead of just suspending armor models when they fail randomized follow up tests. Boom, QC problem solved.Honeywell has factories in China. They're not making the very best PE there, but they're competent enough that the PRC could nationalize their factories in the event of war and press gang them into the 996 to make good enough PE. Follow that up with China's advantage in cheap Silicon Carbide and you have an excellent supply chain for decent plates.
>>65085476The 416 is an improvement to the M4, but the way the marines got away with it was saying they’re using it as a SAW and not a rifle. If their plan was to just acquire a new rifle they never would’ve got this far by the 416 not being better enough than the M4 to be worth spending the money >inb4 “b-b-but the piston weighs 17 pounds>that’s not because of the piston that’s because they adopted a rifle trying to be SAW and DMR with an LPVO and longer and heavier barrel than it needs
>>65084741>Is this just another excuse to give the Sigraelis contracts?I personally think so. Actually, I have this half serious belief that eventually the entire US Armed Forces will be sponsored by SIG USA and it'll be advertised like it's some sort of weird commercial venture.
>>65084795I knew the kikes were behind all these retarded contracts for objectively bad weapons
>>65084875An OG AR18 is a better choice than the M7. The L85 is only a slightly worse weapon than the M7.The AR platform being entirely replaced wouldn't bug me, what bugs me is when a gun notably worse replaces something better
I'm always impressed just how gay and brown these threads are.
>>65085021Not even close. Have you ever heard of FCS?
>>65086602It turned that way once the M4 shills from /arg/ arrived
Imagine in a sane world where there is some variety in issued small arms so they can pick and choose for what makes sense in the situationWhy do you need a ~~~service rifle~~~
>>65087578>they can pick and choose for what makes sense in the situationmost armies' specOps units already do this for Handguns/sidearms
I wonder how long it will take for the barrels manufactured with SIG quality control to turn to dust after extended use with 80,000 psi cartridges. Aside from all the real problems of ammunition size/weight that is one of my concerns with .277.Also, the M7 is bad because it doesn't have a bayonet lug.
>>65084741Imagine having an elevation or LOS advantage.Now imagine that instead of a 5.56 that loses 3/5ths of its energy at 150m and a wall.Now imagine you have a gun that you know will go through walls and always knockdown.Imagine you have to retake some kind of "fortified" position like a concrete reinforced skyscraper or parking garage. Imagine you're defending an airport.I want the beeg boolet.Anyways they could've tooled the rifle out for DMR and expanded the DMR role instead of trying to blanket push this thing.They're up to about 8-10,000 delivered right now and same time next year >30k we'll see how they really perform by then.
>>65087925Imagine being able to call for fire support and not having to do the job of a mortar with your rifle.
>>65086515>the way the marines got away with it was saying they’re using it as a SAW and not a riflethis is just not true anymore almost every infantry marine is getting a m27 now
>>65087932This, everything in his cope-post was never supposed to be taken care of with a single infantryman's individual small arm
>>65087932>>65087979I never said an infantry weapon would replace tanks mortar and CAS.Fucks sake wouldnt it be nice to know there's 2 or 3 people within 400 meter of either side of you who can pen all types of unarmored cover.It should've just been intended and designed as a DMR and the marksman head count should have been increased.
>>65088014>Fucks sake wouldnt it be nice to know there's 2 or 3 people within 400 meter of either side of you who can pen all types of unarmored cover.That's called IFV gun.
>>65088014>2 or 3 peopleThat's what SAW and 40mm gunners are for.
>>65088044oh yes the 5.56 SAW is much better at hosing down a fortification than the m250
>>65088014We already have the M110, which is about 4x more accurate and has nearly identical ballistic and terminal performance.>But the M110 is too long for clearing rooms with!So don't use your marksmen for door kicking.
>>65088073>muh 5.56Lots of them are 7.62 (Minimi 762 for example) now, the point is: infantry platoons rely on suppressive and covering fire support from single designated weapon MOSs<---that aren't carrying assault rifles aka service rifles, Dumb Fuck.
