> [Special forces] were usually formed by attracting the best men ... The result of these methods was undoubtedly to lower the quality of the rest of the Army - Prim on chindits/special forces.Prove him wrong. Special forces are cool is not a valid argument. Neither is we don't have to report their casualties. Obviously there is a role for sabotuers of some kind to operate behind enemy lines, spies/assassination teams and hostage rescue. But not so much "army+" like SS, IRGC, Marines, Rangers. Stuff like mountain or ski units are pretty ridiculous, just get the regular army to do it.Hypothetically speaking who could abolish all/most of the special forces? The head of the army, the president?
I kinda disagree. If there wasn't something cool to aspire to, people would just leave. Sure you've got those top guys for 4 years, but then they're gone to cash in their GI bill. Whereas if there's a carrot tempting them with relaxed grooming standards, less bullshit, cooler work and higher op tempo surrounded by similarly motivated and skilled people (whether any of that is actually true is incidental, point is that's the marketing pitch), then maybe they'll stick around and try make a career out of it.
>>65094384different kind of training for different kind of peoplejohn irregular can't stand the regular military. he joins the irregular army instead. he does things the regulars can't. and the regulars do things he can't. it's like having a guy with smashed knees be a recruiter instead of being cannon fodder.
>>65094384Why the Valentine tank though? Are you proposing tank commandos?
>>65094434There's still promotion in rank as a carrot.Also transfer to a more elite or prestigious regular unit, like the first cohort in the days of rome, coldstream guards, something like the first infantry division in the US army
Bomber pilots were those who couldn't become fighter pilots, and navigators and bombardiers were those who couldn't become pilots.Should the elite fighter pilot units have been disbanded and the quality of bomber pilots improved instead?
>>65094384No. Ukrainian spiderwebbers and others are doing God's work.
>>65094500actually bomber pilots from 1945-1990 were the most elite units pretty much worldwide because of NOOOKS
>>65094384>General Westmoreland was a veteran of the Normandy invasion and knew the importance of small unit leaders and individuals separated from their parent companies to take initiative against superior enemy forces.Recondo school says otherwise.
>>65094384It depends how well the rest of the army is functioning as a meritocracy and how well the best guys respond to the bullshit that's just there to filter retards. You take a smart, capable guy and make him clean rocks he's going to transfer ASAP.
>>65094384>Yeah but if you take our high performers our teams will suck in comparisonThis is a question of doctrine and if you want highly capable units that go above and beyond or you want to waste talent and motivation on regular units. If you've ever played a teamsport you there's different divisions and some dudes absolutely carry the team, others drag them down. Anyone bitching about this is afraid of any change and improving the regular guys under his command.In fact SF and the like often get used to test new shit and find out what works and what doesn't, which expertise then makes it further down the line to regular units who get better training as a result.It's archaic and crabs-in-a-bucket thinking that concentrating high performers together will disadvantage your organization as a whole, in fact putting the high performers together will lead to more insights and overall improvement of quality (if you have an organization in place to learn and distribute the knowledge gained).
>>65094384A unit is only as strong as its weakest link. Without special forces, all the best guy will get brought down to the level of the average grunt and are typically unable to provide whatever additional advantage to the army that they could have otherwise brought.
>>65094461>different kind of training for different kind of peopleThis. I worked with special forces and I appreciate a lot of the mentality for getting shit done and using initiative but I don't have a glamorous view of them either. Of course it's really hard to talk in general terms of special forces when it's like different types of autism but as a whole they're not suited to a regular military career and their doctrine would cause problems if used as a blunt tool.You don't benefit from dispersing specialisms, if you put air force dudes into the artillery then you won't see shells fly further.>>65094484Rising the ranks is really about management which a lot of specialists aren't suited for or motivated to do. In fact I'd say that if there's one failure in modern organisational structures it's that we're still too focused on ladders without specialisms paying well enough and getting enough of an input to wrangle the young management grad.>>65094638>In fact SF and the like often get used to test new shit and find out what works and what doesn't, which expertise then makes it further down the line to regular units who get better training as a result.Not true. They use different equipment and where the same kit is used it's used in very different ways. You wouldn't give a lot of special forces equipment to a regular grunt because if nothing else the spirit of the devil will possess him to break everything in new and ingenious ways.
>>65094384>Stuff like mountain or ski units are pretty ridiculous, just get the regular army to do it.Forcing the entire Army to learn to do things that arent going to be applicable 95% of the time seems like a massive fucking waste of limited training time. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that sounds like their result would be liable to "lower the quality of the rest of the Army". But hey, what if instead we trained a small portion of the Army to do those specialist skills so we still have the capability as needed, oh wait
>>65094831most of the time those special elite units designed for a single purpose end up fighting as expensive light infantry, except they don't have as much experience in combined arms and their formations have no longevity in the field.seeBasically every paratrooper unit evernavy sealsmountain and arctic warfare units
>>65094384I feel like all special forces need that blend of unhinged lunatics and regimented pragmatists to keep everything running, so yes you are losing some of you're best, but you're gaining men who'd otherwise be imprisoned or ejected, and also getting rid of men who're some of your worst and an active detriment to your efforts, so they cancel out.
>>65094867counterpoint: SBS and SAS/SASR
>>65094384Regular people are better for regular Army, they follow orders and do their duty.Psycopaths are better for SF, they can go commit war crimes on the down low without affecting general morale.
>>65094867So what part of that makes teaching those niche skills to the entire Army a better idea? Yes, train a paratrooper unit and it'll cost you more than standard 11Bs, but the ability to use them as such isn't a weakness
>>65094384The problem with trying to consolidate all missions into a single general force is they end up being deprived of specialized support for their mission profiles and have to jockey with their rest of their force for resources. He who tries to be great at everything, is good for nothing.
>>65094384Did you ever read about the Chindits, nigger? For people operating in the areas they did, fighting in the conditions they did, you don't send Indians or militia with two-weeks training, you need resourceful men that have been trained to survive on onions and who are willing to carry their wounded hundreds of miles over some of the worst terrain imaginable.Dumbfuck. I'm only responding because the Valentine is such an ugly-sexy tank, like the homely, sorta' weird girl from highschool that you wished you asked out.
>>65094384he's right. Schwarzkopf hated special forces and initially tried to involve them as little as possible in the Gulf for the same reason as well as the fact that SOF groups are often arrogant cowboys that are difficult to control and blunder into embarrassing international incidents. Most of the time they waste more resources and dilute more efficiency than they make up for. There's also a lot of dialogue on the Chinese internet concerning the fact that a lot of people want their dedicated SOF brigades to be disbanded. Most of the time their existence just isn't worth it. >>65095957British Raj troops were by all accounts pretty good troops in the Burma campaign though.
The Russians had the right idea for this. Select a small number of people for specialized training then toss them back into regular units
>>65094500bomber pilots were the cream of the crop of the personnel of almost every air force, the fuck are you talking about? Often bomber crewmen were even higher scorers in proficiency than fighter trainees in fields like pragmatic agreeableness due to the fact that they needed to cooperate with others on an even more direct basis to keep their aircraft in the air compared to a single-seat fighter, the only exceptions being WWII-era turret gunners who indeed were often the ones not good enough to be pilots or navigators.
>>65094384better to concentrate quality than to disperse it
>>65096593>bomber pilots were the cream of the crop of the personnel of almost every air forcesource: my assThe most talented pilots in WW2 always assigned to fightersWhen a bomber has a team of 10 people it's more of a well trained unit rather than a star individualBomber pilots aren't pulling high-reflex maneuvers
>>65094384What if we concentrate all our best men with the best equipment and training in small suicide units?
>>65096631>but Franz, why do I have to wear the gas mask?>because, Albert, you don't have a fucking mustache
>>65094867Arctic warfare units exist because that shit's hard. Unless you're an especially wintry country like the Nordics, your average grunt will freeze to death
>>65095957the chindits were a mistake, they got attrited terribly, and were some of the best men in the army, also they were not supported or were pressed into fighting in frontline roles or used as firefighters
>>65096379yeah, theoretically the guys you trained can pass down their skills to the other people in their original unit
>>65096631Also we don't need to support them, they are supersoldiers and will use the power of will to ignore shortages of food or supply, triumph of the will bro
>>65094480>Are you proposing tank commandos?Yes.
>>65096631Not to mention finest facial hair!
>>65096621>Bomber pilots aren't pulling high-reflex maneuversYeah they often did lol. Other than the fact that mutual cooperation with said small trained unit often takes a higher degree of competence, Bombers had to maneuver like mad constantly.
>>65094480>Are you proposing tank commandos?Shortened Tankmandos
Is there a super air force for the best pilots? Why not a super navy for the best crews on the best boats?
>>65096831So what teenage schoolgirls engaging in tankery?
>>65096889
>>65096899yes sir it is essential that they be young girls because um they fit in the tanks better, i'll volunteer to be in command since this project probably won't go anywhere, all for the greater good sir. I'll train them up well and be a trusted mentor and confidant to these budding and developing young soldiers
>>65096899>>65097038>They are the pantsu elite!
>>65096593>the fuck are you talking about?WWII.US air force had primary training that was 300 take off and landings flying crop duster before they were allowed to aproach more expensive aircrafts.Best pilots were sent to fighters, mediocre were send to bomber schools, and those who crashed plane were send to navigators and gunners schools.
>>65097148You forgot about those glorious glider volunteers.
