Why is MiG-29/35 a commercial failure?
>>65094905Ive been binge watching some russian content about the state o their aircraft production, and oh man is basically dead, gone and buried and they are never recovering from it. they literally cant produce anything anymore in any meaningful quantity or even acceptable quality.Its not only the loss of machinery and production lines,. pretty much everyone between the age bracket of 21-59 is gone. the loss of institutional knowledge leaves them with old pensioners and freshly graduated students to design and build complex machines so they are relegated to assembling which ever left overs they can find rom soviet times.I recommend watching this video, its in Russian, but turn on auto-dubbing its pretty decent.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI6CEM9DNaw
>>65094905Same reason the Gripen hasn't been a major export success, a major component of military sales is the political element of it. If you buy Russian you're telling the world you're somewhat on their team which will lock you out potential sales from nations that don't like Russia. And unlike previous generations of Russian jets, Russia doesn't have the political and economic sway it once held, so hitching your wagon to them is an act of diplomatic suicide. The only people that still deal with Russia are mostly pariah states or nations powerful enough that it's more Russia hitching their wagon to them than the other way around. Of course there's also India which, militarily speaking is a non-entity with how incompetent they are. Also, consider how withered their industrial capacity has become in the wake of the collapse of the union. They're simply not a reliable source of spare parts and support anymore
>>65094905Let me see...Soviet weapons technology was largely located in the country they are shelling the shit out of.That pretty much covers it.
>>65094905Because it has poor range and bad engines. The Su-30/35 has equally dodgy engines, but notably better combat range.
>>65094942You forgot the absolutely abysmal avionics
>>65094958It still baffles me why Egypt bought the MiG-29s in the first place. Just order more Rafales for Christ's sake
>>65095042Egypt has always been one of those freakshow militaries that rock a mix of East and West to keep themselves nominally neutral. I mean it's either that or go the Swedish route of developing and building it all in-house
>>65095062 > go the Swedish route of developing and building some in-house and buying the critical components from USAFTFY
Fairly short-range, dirty engines, small amount of space for upgrades. If you can buy Western, it's better to - if you can buy Russian, you're likely better off with Sukhoi. India wanted them for carriers, which might allow for slightly more aircraft carried due to the smaller size, but you're still running into the other issues. And yet despite all that, I still love them. They're nice looking little jets and no stealth means you will see them in a variety of colors.
>>65094925Cheers anon will watch later
>>65094927>Of course there's also India which, militarily speaking is a non-entity with how incompetent they are.Really?
>>65094942>The Su-30/35 has equally dodgy enginesAre J-15/J-16 compatible with Russian Flankers? They are better right?Russia should just buy a fuck ton of Chinese Flanker engines.
>>65095109Paint effects stealth?Wtf.
>>65095320When your biggest threat is fucking Pakistan, yes really>but muh 6 gorillion soldiersWho are so retarded they make marines look like MIT graduates
>>65095324>J-15/J-16 compatibleTheir engines I mean.
>>65094927So what you're saying is, is that if Sweden adopts the Euro, they will sell more Gripens?
What are the best most advanced Fulcrum's to exist?
>>65094905Because the main people receiving them aren't paying a cent?
>>65094929Is there a good book or pdf that covers this?
>>65094958lol...privately 'owned' is givin me a giggle
>>65095332They used to use the same engines now they use Chinese engines. idk if it's a drop in conversion or if the airframes need extensive modification
>>65095471it's owned by jared isaacman, current NASA administrator.
>>65094905Poor range, unreliable fairly maintenance heavy especially compared to its capability (It's more expensive to operate than the F16 iirc). The Russians prioritised the Flankers and so did their biggest customers which also led to neglect
>>65095328RAM coatings. It's why stuff like the F-35 is all the same grey color regardless of what nation is using it. With the only real exceptions being aggressor schemes.
>>65094925>pretty much everyone between the age bracket of 21-59 is goneHow could anyone actually believe a statement like this?
>>65095572The experts in that age bracket are gone that is.the brain drain in the 90s gutted alot of their technical knowledge base.Its all either young graduates with 0 experience or who ever is left alive from the old soviet days.
The blue Bangladesh uses is pretty nice.
No, it's not on fire...
>>65095489Russia notably refused to sell China it's AL-41 engines, so China ended up having to buy 2 dozen Su-35s to get access to them. I think China would do the same thing to Russia, with probably a larger order.
>>65095572>>65095591He's not talking about wartime KIAs, just the huge losses in both demographic decline and migration.
>>65094925Their aviation industry maybe in the shitter, and it could possibly never recover. But it is still alive. Theyre still cranking out Su-30/34/35s and various helicopters.
>>65095661based country boys rollin coal
>>65094905The MiG-29 was supposed to be a short range fighter in the same category as the F-16. The smaller frame compared to the Flanker series means it carries less payload and has lower range, which limits usefulness.The F-16 extended its relevancy by becoming a multirole, while the Fulcrum series is technically multirole it's clearly an afterthought as the avionics to support those roles (and Russia's chronic lack of smart weapons) simply aren't there.The MiG's engines last less than a Western one, so in the end you're blowing a lot of money in engine overhauls and replacements on a "cheap" aircraft. You're not gonna maintain a huge fleet of these suckers due to all of the costs, so in for a penny in for a pound you might as well just maximize the number of Flankers.They may have tried to polish a turd with the MiG-35, but the Russians couldn't find an export market for it so they couldn't afford to develop and build that series.
>>65095628Do you think their J10s are gonna be in the same color? or just grey
>>65095828Hard to say, but seeing a blue J-10 would be neat. I can appreciate anything that tries to stand out. If Pakistan can have some of theirs with green camo spots then I don't see why not.
>>65095743No doubt they also shifted a bunch of relevant specialists to support the war in the back-line the same way they've cannibalized everything else organizationally. Not casualties but no longer part of any longer term project.
Has there been any more rumors of Russia licensing production of airframes to the Norks? I'm not sure if it is a good idea for them but i'd support it just on the general principal that anything that humiliates Russia is a good thing.
Speaking of Nork MiGs, I think this soulful paintjob is gone now. :(
>>65094905Because it costs almost as much as a Flanker, but is much more limited on range and upgradability. Most of the cost is not in the size of the airframe but in the engine and sensor tech.
>>65096011Sadly yes. The new color scheme looks good but something in my 50+ yo heart yearns for that Cold War era commie paint. I know they are trying to distinguish themselves (the black and grey flag looks awesome) but it just feels wrong somehow.I can't get over how pic related looks like something from GI Joe, i can only hope and pray that there is some button they can press in actual combat so the shrink wrap falls off and suddenly the jet is pale blue with a Cobra symbol.
>>65096057Not quite on subject but i would like to draw the readers attention to the weapons load of the Frogfoot of Doom on the right.
>>65096057Addendum; there is a major omission in this image. They have 3 operational squads of Mig-23s, they are just so big they physically couldn't fit them into the photo shoot or the hanger.
>>65096115Further addendum: All the flight crews are standing at attention as well as their alternates. See the drones on the back left? No operators at attention. See the Global Hawk at home on the rear right? Flight crew at attention. The budge is for a gimbal mounted directional satellite, something that is useless for the DPRKs due to them having only 2-3 semi functional satellites. If there wasn't a dish in there... It is the size of a WW2 medium bomber and there is as much potential crew space as any of the other aircraft on display. Just something to think about.
>>65096057Those schemes aren't bad, but I do see what you mean. Especially with the decals and all the external mounts. Does look like a bit like a toy. >>65096115That's a shame because I have seen very few images of Nork Floggers.
>>65096180They are very reticent about them, they are the DPRK's most capable aircraft and undoubtedly the hardest to keep running. If i am not mistaken they keep them in one of their underground mountain airfields, they are probably considered a strategic resource since they are a real threat to any attacker in the early stages of an invasion. Their Mig-29s and AD give them a week or two before B-52s are over Pyongyang, a week or two that the DPRK is raining hell on their enemies. The Mig-23s give them a creditable chance to do a limited aerial counter attack or interception so they can extend that a week or two, that is an entire month where the DPRK ground forces can be shelling, gassing, rocketing and otherwise hammering the everliving fuck out of the RoK on the ground.Hate do this but the DPRK has something no one else does; a operational number of swept wing fighters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbMC8hhcrNw
>>65095572That doesn't have to mean they're dead or even that they moved away. Shit pay, disrespect, etc leads to disinterest from labor in wanting to work in the industry.
>>65096224I know they're more multirole, but I like that the Su-24 has been getting used a lot lately. Ukraine, Russia, Iran.
>>65094905Role wise it kind of is like a Me109 in that it has short ass legs as an airfield defender. The Soviets were never really huge into aerial tanking or drop tanks as much as Western air forces were.
>>65094905it's the low end of a high-low mix that doesn't actually cost less than the high option. It was also introduced into service in 1983. It didn't have enough time to develop before it's manufacturer and their alliance base imploded. It's development was set back decades while western fighters continued to improve, getting better and cheaper. The SU-27 series, meanwhile, still got funding fro multiple countries and was able to stay relevant while the MiG-29 slipped farther and farther back.It's an utter shame too. The Sukhoi is an tremendously ugly plane. It's proportions are all stretched out and it has that vacuous middle cavity with the bulbous front end awkwardly cantilevered over the front end. The tail of the thing has the engines awkwardlly splayed out to make room for the ridiculous tail boom. The MiG's compact proportions just look agile and lethal. If there was justice in the world, it would have gotten the development budget. It's easily the best looking Russian fighter since WW2.
>>65096291The thing that has been bothering me: Why the hate against swept wing aircraft? What is it about F-14s and Mig-23s that merits such specific targeted hatred?
>>65096416I think all of those (and others like the Tu-22 and B-1) all have their fans. They're just justifiably criticized as being maintenance intensive.If you mean "hatred" as "Why do they keep getting destroyed, do the plane-gods not like them?" Then it's just the places they're still deployed are prone to explosions lately.
>>65096416>swept wingI assume you mean swing wing? Nobody hates swing wing aircraft in particular and they're fine aircraft for their era. It's just that once in a while some retard wanders in and starts asking why nobody uses this ideal technology anymore and dismisses out of hand all the criticisms of weight and unreliable complexity that killed them.
>>65094905Short range and expensive to operate and maintain, having to rely on russian government for spare parts and armament.
>>65096437>I assume you mean swing wing?Yes, i'm sorry for my incorrect nomenclature. My bad as the kids say these days. Fr Fr no cap on god.It isn't a bad idea and i know it is expensive and complex to maintain, however it seems damn useful and i don't understand why everyone (USA mostly) hates it so much. I am also suspicious simply because the two nations that seem to be interested in swing wing fighters are Iran and North Korea, admittedly i don't see much future for Iranian F-14s but the DPRK still has some Mig-23s. F-14s and Mig-23s are really cool and useful airframes, why is there a global campaign to exterminate them?
>>65096431>If you mean "hatred" as "Why do they keep getting destroyed, do the plane-gods not like them?" Then it's just the places they're still deployed are prone to explosions lately.Irans F-14s are a obvious case of explosions however the DPRKs Mig-23s are not exploding last time i checked. The Norks have been balls to the wall exceeding expectations lately, what if instead of demanding Mig-29 production from Russia they went full retard and instead demanded a Mig-23 assembly line?
>>65094905overshadowed by su-27 and derivatives>>65094929MiG is wholly outside of Ukraine>>65095324russia is still better at engines than china
>>65094905Ask Algeria.https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/2008/02/algeria-returns-faulty-mig-29s/
>>65096505>russia is still better at engines than chinaBut are they capable of making legacy engines like those in Il-28s or older Migs? Egypt, Cuba and Vietnam use the DPRK for engines or at least the means to make them. The mere fact that Cuba and Vietnam thinks the DPRK is more capable of overhauling Mig-21s than Russia speaks volumes about Russia's capabilities. Pic unrelated besides being a rare image of her feet.
>>65095959So you are saying the Russians are on a third reich 1945 level of war footing where they are pressing scientists and engineers into rear lines roles?
>>65095984Does North Korea have the capacity to build whole new airframes themselves? I know they've done some indigenous modifications and kitbashes, but from-scratch airframe production is a whole other story. If they do look abroad for new aircraft, I'd expect their first stop to be China, not Russia. China has already co-opted the only airframe Russia ever made that was worth half a damn, the Flanker, and they have some decent looking other options like the JF-17 and J-10. Better than early-model Fulcrums anyway.
>>65094927or just US Regime cant take compettiton
>>65094905The short answer is because the Su30 exists.The long answer is that the MiG29 was designed to be the front line interceptor of the large scale nuclear war that never happened.This demanded certain design compromises, the biggest of which was range. It was initially designed to protect its airbase and not much else. You can see this in some of the performance statistics like the climb rate, which is outstanding, because it's a jet intended to take off and get in the fight immediately, before the air base gets nuked, then the base gets nuked anyway and it lands on an agricultural airfield, refuels and gets back in the air for the next fight. The initial version barely had a functional radar and the plane was entirely dependent on the air base controller.This design does not translate well into peace time conditions because there wasn't much room for improvements. Ultimately, the MiG29 frame found its niche as a carrier plane, which is the one role where the Su27's hugeness is a downside. Furthermore, as we got to the turn of the millenium, the size of the plane became less of a factor in terms of price because the radars became the expensive component, so the MiG29 wasn't actually that much cheaper than the Su27 variants, which was vastly superior in the metrics that buyers actually cared about.Its actual best case scenario was in Ukraine, where the runways were largely bombed out and its ability to take off from anywhere really came into play, but by then it was too late and the variants in use were out of date. The Russians didn't even send their MiG29s to the front line, they were doing regular air policing shit elsewhere.
>>65096553Did you notice that fact that Kuznetsov's crew was sent to the frontline in Ukraine ?Or were you too busy getting dedovschynad
>>65096606Yes, they can make a Mig-29 equivalent on their own. The way they dissembled and rebuilt to ones they already have due to paranoia proves that. It would be in very limited numbers (like 6-10 a year) simply due to the hard limit they have on advanced machining: They need their small numbers of stolen Japanese CnC machines for their ICBM and Space programs. They are pushing solid fuel rockets because they bypass their advanced machining capabilities; anything that does not require them using their multi axis CnC machines is a good thing. They need their advanced machining abilities for their ICBMs, Space Program and nuclear warheads, Chinese tools just aren't as good as the limited numbers they can steal from Japan. They cannot (yet) make things like mono crystalline turbine blades, a Nork Mig-29 might very well have R-11 based engines in it. It wouldn't be cost efficient for them to make compared to the vastly successful missiles they are making. As to your question about airframes yes they can, that is the least technological issue they would have. The DPRK can make anything they want, the real question is it worth it for them to do so within the hard limits of their size. As an example;The DPRK has proven that it can make a boosted fission/fusion trigger bomb. They can make a H-Bomb. Yay DPRK, you can theoretically make H-Bombs. Where the fuck do they test it? They already collapsed the mountain they used for the first 5-6 atomic tests, where the hell to they test a 3-5 megaton H-bomb outside their borders that doesn't immediately result in them getting nuked in retaliation?
>>65094905>Why is MiG-29/35 a commercial failure?It was overpriced for the hobbyist interceptor market and red tape got in the way of using private air strips.
>>65096149>norktard thinks there's a midget in the droneI guess they might have access to chink satellites
>>65096472>F-14s and Mig-23s are really cool and useful airframes, why is there a global campaign to exterminate them? Because a CAD-optimized cranked arrow is almost as good aerodynamically, while having 10% of the maintenance costs.
>>65096644>Its actual best case scenario was in Ukraine, where the runways were largely bombed out There's even a blockbuster-movie-tier clip of a ukie MiG taking off as explosions go off around the runway.
>>65095572Even raytheon is suffering from this.
>>65095803even polish plumbers can't make that shit work lmaowtf were the soviets doing?
>>65095062>Egypt has always been one of those freakshow militaries that rock a mix of East and West to keep themselves nominally neutral.Yes, Egypt is a true freakshow and I love them. Great meme army that buys a bunch of weapons that won't be used for anything other than blowing a village in the Sinai away with artillery during a clan rebellion.https://youtu.be/3QL24qK1H6o
>>65095803The engine lifetime makes a lot more sense once you realize that these are front line jets. They aren't supposed to last long enough for the first engine to run out.As for the maintenance, it's not as clear cut as it looks. Western engines last a lot longer, but the part nobody mentions is that they require constant inspections and maintenance work.The Soviets essentially moved that work to the factory instead. The JF17, which uses a variant of the RD-33 engine is the champion in this regard, you only need one technician to give it a quick post flight checkup and you're ready to go back in the air. The engines require less work while they're funcitonal, and when they're worn out you swap them out (this is why they love external engine pylons so much, swapping the engine out is supposed to be a much more regular occurence) and send the old ones back to the factory for refurbishment or scrapping.The overall costs more or less even out. The downside is that you MUST have spare engines on hand, which is an issue when you're trying to export shit.If you have an American jet and something happens to the engine, you fly in contractors and they fix it right in the airbase, which is possible most of the time. Or you can get a new engine delivered right quick. If you got Soviet exports, they expect of you to have a stockpile of spare parts on hand so you can fix it yourself and if you want to buy spare parts, you better put your order in 2 years in advance.You can really see that one mindset was designed for heavy duty nuclear warfare and the other is resembling something like the industrial JIT standard.
>>65096614Make a better plane, nigger. You lose to overpriced frogshit
>>65096011how is that soulful? Looks like shit
>>65096679Can't they get Chinese CNC machines or better use use the CNC machines to make more CNC machines?
>>65097141NTA I always find unique but shabby paint schemes on 4th gen aircraft done by irrelevant third world countries sovl. Especially in their barebones, 1960s standard basic military airfields
>>65096803Do you have a link?
>>65097391Pretty sure they mean this one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1AKCq34yns
Some of the Ukie ones leaned into the "Ghost" motif. The pilot himself may have been a myth, the morale boost was very real.
>>65097515>morale boostNo pilot would be retarded enough to believe it though
>>65097520Pilots and others with military knowledge know it wasn't real. None of the numerous claimed shootdowns were ever shown. But the average person loves a hero, and Ukrainians needed one in 2022. Now, "Ghost of Kyiv" is a title given to a few fallen pilots. Which is cool in a collective way.
>>65097520>No pilot would be retarded enough to believe it thoughPilots, like sailors, believe in a lot of things that they know aren't real.Pilots believe a little harder because it's what makes their plane fly.
>>65097493>Pretty sure they mean this one>>>65096803>There's even a blockbuster-movie-tier clip of a ukie MiG taking off as explosions go off around the runwayYou weren't underselling it anon.pic unrelated
>>65095324Saturn engines are still about 50% better than the WS-10B/C, the Chinese know it, and the Russians know it. Nobody is in any hurry to buy Chinese jet engines.
>>65097146unprofitable red ocean markethttps://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%83%8A%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF...retard, do you think whats the full name of cnc?
>>65097963Computerized Nigger Culling, I think. I may have a word slightly off
>>65097963>whats the full name of cnc?Consensual non-consent?AKA rape play?
>>65097493Rad
>>65096920>As for the maintenance, it's not as clear cut as it looks. Western engines last a lot longer, but the part nobody mentions is that they require constant inspections and maintenance work.Are you saying that Russian aircraft engines don't require maintenance outside of major overhauls?
>>65098200>Are you saying that Russian aircraft engines don't require maintenance outside of major overhauls?I don't speak to the veracity but that is certainly a frequently repeated claim.
>>65096803>There's even a blockbuster-movie-tier clip of a ukie MiG taking off as explosions go off around the runway.I know the one you're talking about AND I DIDN"T SAVE IT GODS IM SO MAD AT MYSELF. Anyone have the MP4?
>>65098305I got the webm version
And now my favorite paint on 29s. East German.
>>65098611For me, it's Sudanese.
>>65098722Interesting roundel.
>>65096553Kinda, but less that they're at a breaking point and more that their military operates on a patchwork of bad habits and that they've gradually subordinated their entire economy to a war effort they were expecting to be over by now.
>>65098611>>65098616>>65098638Out of all the Warsaw Pact states, the DDR is the only one that makes me angry. I don't know why either. I'll have to self-reflect.
>>65098819It's one of those weird things I have a fascination with. Definitely would not want to live there, but I appreciate its military and some of the culture.
>>65098863Have any good book recs on East Germany?
>>65098890I actually don't. It's mostly just been reading random web pages or clicking videos that come up YouTube. So if anyone knows any books, I'd like to know as well. Also been fortunate enough to run into some Anons who had experiences and posted info/corrections in threads.
>>65094905Russian arms exports model is literally Ponzi Scheming vaporware, to fund almost near peer gear in inadequate numbers and capability anyways.
>>65098200They do, but the amount and the level of training required by the maintenance personnel is much lower.Doesn't stop the Indians from endlessly bitching about how hard it is, but they do that for literally everything.Our closest equivalent is the Grippen, which is designed to be maintaned on roads, by conscipts. They even have this really cute tool truck that has all the tools and machines they need to refuel and rearm it.I saw some very rough equivalent for the F35, for operating off of austere runways, but the sortie rate in that situation is, let's say severely questionable.
