The "optimal" caliber/bullet design/gun for law enforcement is not the "optimal" caliber/bullet design/gun for joe blow. Your needs are fundamentally different, but i suppose theres not too many prohibitve downsides in having 20 rounds of 9mm designed to expand a little after going through windshields, its still good 'nuff to work. Just dont pretend its the peak of performance for your needs as a defensive choice for an individual civillian, theres no shame in not using something thats better or in using obsolete things, so long as they still work well enough for you. Idk why thats so hard for people to admit, where they have to lie to themselves and everyone else to feel better. I suppose from their point of view theyre not lying though, they really believe it
>>65103259The needs of self defense carry strongly overlap the needs of law enforcement carry.
>>65103259Our needs are not mutually exclusive. Just because a defensive hollowpoint may be designed with barrier penetration in mind doesn't mean that it isn't good at wasting groids. What you should have done was presented a better alternative for civilian use, but you didn't, because there isn't. If your claim is that 9mm is inadequate for civilians, there's little evidence to suggest that any caliber really performs any better other than things like .357 or .44 mag, and since I can't carry 17 rounds of .357, 17 rounds of 9mm will suffice.
One should carry and shoot either .32 or .45 for a self defense handgun. There is nothing else that makes sense or can be justified. If you disagree, you're wrong. Browning did nothing wrong.
>>65103259Whole lotta words to justify not carrying a Staccato or a Glock
The optimal (whatever that means) police/LE handgun caliber is .40 Smith & Wesson. All purpose, shoots through auto glass. (.45 and 9 can be good or 'the right thing' but .40 is the most versatile overall for cops)Optimal civilian defensive handgun caliber can be many; depending on a person's need and skill-proficiency level(s), training, how much effort they put into carry, if ? the pistol is for home defense use, etc.
>>65103434>Browning did nothing wrong.He didn't carry a .45 ACP. He carried a .38 ACP/9x23mmSR (not .380 ACP/9x17mm, the larger one that would become .38 Super after he died).
>>65103259Bonded hollowpoints are pretty hard to beat unless you want max penetration so I don't see what you're saying here.>>65103521>.40 is optimal because numbers numbers numbers>oh everyone stopped using it after 15 years>must be because they are WEAK and FEMALE
>>65103384>>65103259What caliberfags always fail to understand is that they can't shoot the obscure magnum cartridges they favor any better they can shoot 9mm, and they unconsciously conclude that their lack of skill will be compensated for by their patrician choice in cartridge.
>>65103259>"optimal"This sounds like some strange need to convince yourself more than anything. You can carry whatever meme cartridge you want even if other people aren't convinced it's the best in the world, it's all hair splitting with handgun cartridges anyway. The mean girls with the 9mm handguns aren't going to stop you.
>>65103521>.45 and 9 can be good or 'the right thing' but .40 is the most versatile overall for cops.40 S&W and 10mm (the weak FBI loads) only exist because the FBI wanted .45 ACP performance but couldn't justify it to Congress that had spent millions switching the military from .45 ACP to 9mm.
>>65103576I greatly disagree. Most "caliberfags" I know are gun enthusiasts who shoot way more than the average gun owner. The ones who are content being average are the ones who most vehemently defend the most common ammo choices (which are .22 LR, 9mm, 5.56, and .308).
>>65103627Almost every "caliberfag" I know is a 10mm fan, and most 10mm fans I know have glocks and shoot like 50 rounds per month. Conversely, all of the 9mm chads I know shoot extremely high volumes, and respect themselves enough to carry something other than a glock.
>>65104336>Almost every "caliberfag" I know is a 10mm fanWell lets see, I know...>1 SCHV addict who obsesses over things like .22 Creedmoor, .17 HMR, 35 grain .223 out of a 24" barrel (4k velocity), .220 Swift, etc. He loves velocity.>3 large bore addicts who like .45 LC, .454 Cassull, one of them has a .460 S&W and another loves his.458 Lott.>One ELR addict who loves obscure 7mm cartridges, weatherby stuff, .338 Lapua Magnum, etc. He looks down on .50BMG addicts.>One guy who is addicted to bottlenecked pistol rounds .40 Super, .357 SIG, 7.62×25mm Tokarev, a Desert Eagle in .429 DE, etc. He doesn't own a 7.5 FK BRNO yet but he's in love with the idea of the design.>One guy who still uses cowboy cartridges. He loves his .45 LC and 44-40.>1 guy who loves plinking ammo .22 LR, .22 Magnum, .17 HMR, etc. He loves shooting all day.Now on to your new point...>most 10mm fans I know have glocks and shoot like 50 rounds per month.600 rounds a year is not that bad. Most gun owners in the country shoot less than 300-500 rounds a year.>Conversely, all of the 9mm chads I know shoot extremely high volumes, and respect themselves enough to carry something other than a glock.A lot of shooters are lying about their round counts. Competition shooters and instructors are more than half of the people who shoot tens of thousands of rounds a year. Most people who aren't one of those two things just don't have the time to shoot that much.
>>65103434Good thing Browning was working on a striker fired double stack 9mm when he died.
>>65103259The optimal bullet design is 30-06
>>65103551>everyone stopped using it
>>65104480
>>65103259Putting down animals is the goal. There is no meaningful "caliber" differentiation between cops and civilians worth discussion. The ONLY factor that drives law enforcement here is budget. Caliber has absolutely nothing to do with it. Pretending it does simply and instantly identifies you as a try-hard fuckwit trolling for internet points.
>>65104480.30-06 Springfield is a cartridge, dumbass. The same, exact bullet may be found in 7.62x51mm NATO and .300 Winchester Magnum, among others.
>>65103259Any large organization like the cops or military accept they are going to have some shit members and they need equipment that helps those people be less hit.If you are on par with the worst cops then their firearms are perfect for you.
>>65103259Law enforcement engages negroesI engage negroes Same-same.
>>65105047>drives law enforcement here is budgetAlso training. If ? most police forces/sheriffs invested more in firearms proficiency training they could use .32 ACP as standard, but cops (most of them) don't know how to shoot handguns and-or dgaf about it from lack of regular skill-building training. That involves their departments' budgeting of 1) Time (for training) and 2) ammunition supply for the training sessions
