During the Obama era there was a rule that said the military could not drop ordnance on a building unless they could verify there were no civilians inside. That means the Taliban could freely shoot at Americans and nothing would happen to them. This gave the impression that the Taliban were strong and America was weak. That's how the Taliban won over rural areas.

>>65104862
Valuable in areas where the locals are cooperative, carrot and stick. The US has a nasty habit of believing that if they give enough carrots everyone will suddenly like them, but forgot what happend in WW2 to get Germany and Japan to accept the carrots.

>>65104862
>Is "Hearts and Minds" a viable counter insurgency tactic or is it just a handicap?
It's a handicap. No matter what you do, they will hate you. So, may as well not bother wasting time trying to win their hearts and minds. Just kill the hostile ones and be done with it.

>>65104880
>>65104878
So really all you can do is try to fight strategic targets with civilians but operation success first in foremost but also not go full z-ork? That honestly sounds hard as hell to balance. What happens if the insurgency hides behind crowded civilian centers? Then you have to go all Israel and just end up bolstering the insurgent cause..

>>65104870
If only there was a weapon the was longer range than a knife but less destructive than a bomb.

The idea that you can kill your way to victory against an insurgency is complete fantasy. If you are good enough at military stuff it becomes much more like law enforcement, which is where most militaries stumble.

It can help, but it depends a lot on where you are, how receptive the population is and why the insurgents are fighting. Like there was never any winning over the Afghan hicks, because they have no loyalties beyond their immediate family and don't give a shit that you built a dam in the next town over because anybody beyond their valley is an out-group. Plus the Taliban brought in opium bucks, and would pay random locals to spot for IEDs or throw grenades. Whereas those in Kabul really appreciated all the hospitals and shit, because they already lived fairly westernized lifestyles (by the standards of Afghanistan) and were already amenable to that sort of thing from memories under the soviets, so not blowing up their houses and killing their kids does genuinely make a difference.

>>65104878
They also forget what happened after WW2 to make them accept the carrots - an attractive alternative that did not infringe on the core cultural values of germany and japan. In afghanistan they tried to impose liberal values of secularism and feminism on an essentially medieval society, while being unable to truly offer prosperity. No shit it didn't work.

Like some italian once said: it's better to be-a feared than-a loved, wahoo!

>>65104862
>he thinks America lost the war because of muh "Hearts and Minds"
holy cope lmao

>>65104890
>bolstering ins-
Look at Japan and Germany 1945. When you outright DESTROY the ability of a nation to resist and either inturn or outright take command of all military aged males there is simply no insurgents left.
>Israel
Is actually too kind, the population of Gaza should have been dead in the first 90 days, they really need to stop treating the Palestinians as a military inconvenience and rather as a existential threat.
>reeeeeeeeee
The stated goal of Palestinians since day one is the complete extermination of all Israelis, and it has not ever changed.

>>65104862
Well think how you would feel if the PLA rolled into your town and started handing out candy and shooting anybody armed. Depending on your circumstances, you might welcome them even though they make things worse, or you might turn insurgent in spite of their presence improving things.

>>65104899
>lifestyle
BONKBONKBONKBONK. Keep applying the stick. If your mentality is to keep resisting to the last breath then it should be obliged.

>>65104910
>pla
>handing out candy
No, they would kill everyone.

>>65104914
>Let's just go to another country and commit genocide until they submit
>Wait, why does everyone in the world suddenly ally with china
You are as stupid as you are evil.

File: te s.jpg (86 KB, 640x469)

86 KB JPG

Sometimes you just gotta kill has many as you can and scatter them to the wind.

>>65104909
But Japan and Germany were fighting conventionally not guerrilla style non uniformed insurgency

>>65104909
>The stated goal of Palestinians since day one
Are you talking about Hamas, or are you saying that everyone born within Palestine is preprogramed with a mandate?

it comes from the flawed assumption that all people are equal and all culture is the same
it's not

>>65104862
Fun story. There is this 23 year old Iraqi zoomer working at my company. He was living in Iraq during the war, and he learned English by being one of those kids who'd follow the US soldiers around when they were on patrols. He was literally one of those kids. Said sometimes Americans would throw shit at him and call him bad names and he was laughing when he was telling me about it as if it was a good time

File: hamas or smt.jpg (563 KB, 865x1847)

563 KB JPG

>>65104927
>preprogramed with a mandate?
jews are just to ugly to look at

>>65104931
>sometimes Americans would throw shit at him and call him bad names
why would they do that?

>>65104940
imagine having large numbers of stressed 18-21 year olds in all together in a war zone

>>65104862
Depends a lot on how you do it, build things like hospitals and schools people see every day and it can. Just give money to "elders" and hoping they won't pocket it doesn't.

>>65104940
>throwing shit at children
>why would they do that?
Because 16yo 4chan tourists think it's edgy to say stupid shit that never happened in order to collect internet handjobs.

Good luck winning against a modern a counter-insurgency without one.

People love to talk about the failure during GWOT but it was clearly done in the most hairbrained way possible where the institutions of counter-insurgency failed to cooperate:
>the locals seems to be complaining about the warlords and police we're propping up but that doesn't count as hearts and minds... because then it would be awkward
>let's spend millions on water treatment facilities for our bases, then refuse to purchase from the local farmers that spring up and act surprise when it all becomes poppy fields
>sure we'll take out that Taliban stronghold for the 11th time but we're not sticking around

Although given how Katrina went it's hardly confined to winning hearts and minds abroad.

>>65104878
How did that go in Vietnam and post-colonial wars generally?

>>65104899
>In afghanistan they tried to impose liberal values of secularism and feminism

Am I in 2016 again? The Taliban faced protests about kicking girls out of school. Fucking nobody is cool when it becomes their own mothers and daughters.

>>65104900
Machiavelli said that it's best to be BOTH. And even when you have to choose and go the fear route, you can't make people hate you by interfering with their women and property.

>>65104910
I mean do you really need to go PLA on this, how would an American city react to Europeans and Canadians? Even deploying the National Guard out of state was getting a little scary a few months ago.

But if you said that you're there to hang paedophiles, deal with bow-legged Mexican joker cartels and lower the price of gas then I bet you would get some compliance.

>>65104898
This was the mistake that a lot of people in charge seemed to make. They didn't truly appreciate the gap between urban and rural populations. It's not like in the US where the difference is a surface level of culture. Going from Kabul to the countryside is like going from 1950's LA to a medieval village. It's a fundamentally different kind of existence and because of that their values and moral standards are equally disparate. Nobody outside of the main cities was willing to fight for or even necessarily wanted democracy.

>>65104862
You are facing up against the population's ability to develop cognitive dissonance and the rebels' ability to sew it. I'd just kill all the murderers, thieves and rapists regardless of the cultural norms.

>>65105008
>>65104898
So instead of hospitals you give em brand new tractors, cattle and help replenish the soil and plant new seeds for their harvest.

Hearts and Minds is literally based on the Bongs tactics in Malaysia.
>Chinese ethnics start chimping out
>Malaysian ethnics want to start purging
>Other groups mix and match
>Bongs solve this by rounding up every Chinese ethnic and bunging them in a camp
>Give them better housing than they had already (comparatively), give them running water and electricity and other comforts
>Give them food, but mark every single packet and record who you gave it to, so if it is found on a rebel you know who to go have a 'chat' with
>Eventually the population which was trying to rise up lost all their support in the civilian sector because they were being treated better than they were under their supposed 'liberators'
>Few of them wanted to leave the camps to go sit in the jungle and be eaten to death by bugs and having even less food to eat
Of course, didn't stop other ethnics doing horrible shit and the odd Bongs too, but that was where the idea to do it came from. It's just that in GWOT everything seemed to be done one bit at a time and never in conjunction.
>Taliban/whatever stronghold nearby
>You blow it up
>You don't then move in and show the civilian sector that was supporting this stronghold (willingly or unwillingly) that you're the better option
>Don't follow or investigate local 'officials' and 'security' to make sure they were corrupt
Had the USA systematically deleted strongholds and then hung around the local area to make sure they didn't pop back up and showing THEY were the better alternative while making sure the ANA weren't retards, then Taliban wouldn't have won when USA left.

The issue was the 'mountains' but you could have worked on training special units to go and camp in those mountains and remove any returning Taliban, keep doing it until they stop coming.

>>65104862
It is A strategy. So is “kill them all, and let god sort them out”.

>>65104870
NCOs in my first unit told me that during their 2016 Afghanistan rotation, their ROE was often to not even return fire unless a human being was wounded. Guy leaning out of his window with an AK? Can't shoot him. He fired at you? Nope. Dumping lead into your up-armored humvee window? Gotta wait til a round gets through :D

Still don't know if this was exaggerated or not, but more than one person said it. On a related note, BCT drill had another stupid ROE story - known Taliban bombmaker, in a known farmhouse/compound. And he knew they knew. Would wave at them tauntingly. And he knew he was completely safe because there were civilians around him. Eventually after like 6 months of watching this guy, they literally caught him with his pants down, going outside to take a piss shortly after dark. I guess that was enough distance from the civilians to airstrike his ass.

>>65104975
Yeah people love to say the
>hurr durr America cant be occupied because behind every blade of grass

When all you have to do as an occupying force is
>Build free housing to the displaced
>give free housing to the homeless
>give free Healthcare to all
>give guaranteed employment with competitive pay via employing them to build said homes and repair infustructure or manufacturing jobs for their war effort
>and a adequate UBI for pensioners,unemployed and disabled
>set affordable price on consumer goods and public sportsball spectacles in occupied areas

And with a sweet cherry on top of publicly trying and hanging plutocrats and technophiles that everyone on both sides of the spectrum hate like the Koch Brothers, Thiel, Zuckerberg, and Bill Gates and also razing Hollywood to the ground

And you wont just suddenly have 75% of the entire America population laying down their arms. Theyd put on your damn uniform and beg for you to deploy them.

America would be one of the easiest nations to occupy and extinguish a counter insurgency. Cause we pretty much laid out every grievance out on the table and no one really believes its worth defending poltically. And most already beleive its under occupation depends on which side you lean but one will say the jews or Blackrock the other will say rich wall st oligarchs and Blackrock. Hell I wonder how bad the manpower shortage would be here if the US military didnt offer such good benefits for joining.

>>65104894
>The idea that you can kill your way to victory against an insurgency is complete fantasy
I mean, you CAN if the political will is there

>>65104862
burn them all. no psychology, no terror tactics, no aid, no welfare, no allies. just death. death. DEATH!

>>65104878
Ridiculous to compare counterinsurgency with appeasement

>>65104975
>Machiavelli said that it's best to be BOTH
Machiavelli wrote a satire

File: 2ec.png (208 KB, 327x316)

208 KB PNG

>>65105098
You have very clearly never been remotely close to anywhere in middle America

>>65105099
>>65104894
You can and cant and theres only a single digit number of cases and thats mostly because of leaders that went full retard like the Khmer Rouge or Paraguay in the Triple Alliance war that were genociding themselves or were trying to trade blows with a vastly superior force head on while being less concerned with a cholera pandemic happening within there own forces cause I guess they thought diarrhea makes you fight harder.

>hearts and minds
america stopped doing it after korea, it was all a mic adventure after korea

>spain plus her colonies
america let cuba go despite killing thousands of them, only asking for guantanamo bay in return
america kept puerto rico, guam and the philippines
the uprising in the philippines killed millions yet america was beloved in that country because all of the soldiers were sent home and engineers and teachers replaced them
>japan
despite being nuked twice they were marshall plan'd to firstie status in the early 60s and macarthur was revered as a god white man emperor
>germany
after the failed attempt of denatzeefication america simply reinstated everyone and left the remaining natzees to police themselves, quite an achievement
the first west german military and bonn gubmint were all former natzees who still hated kikes up until they started dying of boomerism in the 70s-90s
>korea
despite what nork propaganda claims, all norks were saved and rescued by american + un troops if they wished to move south even if their sork allies did not trust them and despised them as filthy gommies

>>65105113
You clearly watch too much Yellowstone if you honestly think some dude in Wisconsin is gonna be Soros' greatest soldier and fight for his high mortgage and medical debt.

>>65104890
>That honestly sounds hard
Well, yeah. Only retards believe war is easy.

>>65105114
No, you're missing the background of the concept; it's rooted in anti-rebellion tactics from throughout history. Up until a couple hundred years ago tops, rebellions would happen fucking constantly, because everyone was uneducated, poor, probably starving, and had like 10 kids so they could replace the ones that died within a few years. Nations that had too many small rebellions would tear apart at the seams before long.

It wasn't long until intelligent rulers figured out that being merciful to rebels, even when they had legitimate grievances and were perhaps even loyal to the crown (and merely rebelling against a local lord), invited disaster. You need to be merciless because otherwise, people in the next town over, and in the next generation down, will start to think that they can't lose: either the rebellion is successful, or they get let off with a slap on the wrist. Now compare this to a town in which every man woman and child is slaughtered and/or sold off as slaves after a group of them rebelled. It sets an example, and people the next town over will bow their heads, since not only are their own lives at stake, but also those of their friends and family.

Modern insurgency does not operate on fundamentally different principles. It is arguably even worse now, since social media can spread the "holy shit they're going to kill all of us if we keep protesting" or the "they will just let us riot and loot as much as we want" message far and wide. And like in ages past, modern leaders are going to wise up sooner or later.

>>65105122
You clearly watch too much RT if you think a foreign occupying force in America wouldn't be slaughtered to a man.

>>65105118
>america was beloved in that country
No they weren't. They saw Americans as traitors and liars. Thought they were getting freedom from Spain and just got a different yolk instead. Should go an read some actual memoirs and diaries of people from that time and how they felt. Even Mark Twain was against it.
>macarthur was revered as a god white man emperor
Ah, you're just shitposting or going off what you want to think, rather than what people actual thought. Alright.

>>65104894
>If you are good enough at military stuff it becomes much more like law enforcement, which is where most militaries stumble.

That requires large amounts of soldiers and support. More than were ever deployed.

>>65104862
The only counter to Insurgency is genocide. But that was never going to work because the American population wouldn't support it.

By the way we were in Afghanistan purely to restart and promote the Opium cultivation after the Taliban outlawed it in summer 2001. Got to make fat stacks on prescription drugs you know.

>>65105128
Cool sotry, bro. Meanwhile in relaity, people who decided to go full Assyrians all the time ended up like the Assyrians.

>It is arguably even worse now, since social media can spread the "holy shit they're going to kill all of us if we keep protesting" or the "they will just let us riot and loot as much as we want" message far and wide.
Or rather, it is even more pertinent to NOT be perceived as "holy shit they're gonna kil leveryone" now, becuase that message will spread far quicker, and thus make you a hated pariah who's fair game to be annihilated far quicker.

>>65105132
A foreign occupying force would have half the country fighting for them in short order just by supporting or owning the libs.

>>65105145
>The only counter to Insurgency is genocide.
History disagrees with your edgy armchair general take.

>>65105157
simply because nobody went through all the way. when the enemy realizes they're facing an existential threat and the only thing that will stop the war is their utter annihilation, most will simply escape, rather than fight to the death.

File: 623436519_181042481266981(...).jpg (241 KB, 1080x1295)

241 KB JPG

>>65104870
>>65105081
A story from Nick Irving: he was engaging a Taliban fighter in a building, the fighter gave his mom his weapon and told her to run away with it. Nick saw a person with a weapon and killed her. The Taliban fighter thought he could run away safely because he didn't have a weapon and Americans wouldn't shoot him mom because she's a woman.

>>65104975
>then refuse to purchase from the local farmers

But they did. Especially in rural areas.

>>65104975
>How did that go in Vietnam and post-colonial wars generally?

Very well. The locals were happy. The problem was outsiders.

File: Legal food confiscation.jpg (384 KB, 1665x1200)

384 KB JPG

>>65104894
>The idea that you can kill your way to victory against an insurgency is complete fantasy
It's very easy to win against insurgency by using communist Holodomor.
>confiscate all food and agriculturelal land and tools
>provide rations only to loyalists
>...
>profit!
And it's absolutely legal and just. Nobody blames communists that it was genocide or something.

>>65104975
>The Taliban faced protests about kicking girls out of school.

A vocal minority that barely got any attention because most Afghans don't care.

>>65105181
most countries in the world consider the holodomor genocide you dumb fuck

>>65104909
>>65104927
Israel needs to maintain a minimal population of kafir to do all the menial labor that's too good for Jews. It's more accurate to look at the Israeli/Palestine conflict as a civil war.

>>65105194
thatsthepoint.jpg

>>65104870
Ah yeah poor us govt if only they were allowed to bomb kids that would have won the war!

>>65105237
>hearts and mi...ACK!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Spikelets

It works if the people you're winning over have actual political capital. Iraqis and Afghans did not. Giving a kid a candy bar just means he'll be slightly quieter about murdering you when the extremists with AKs roll up and start forcibly conscripting 16 year olds.

Fag shit doctrine,

remisced about by fags whose military careers were a meme

>>65104862
Only after you have killed 1-5% of the fighting age male population or more.

>>65104870
>>65104894
Rome and Colonial Era empires did it all the time. You just can't fuck around and put up with bullshit.

File: images.jpg (8 KB, 251x201)

8 KB JPG

Kill every women and children, then rape all the men to let them know who is the boss.

This will mind break them and they would resist.

>>65105321
>rape
I don't fuck uglies

File: Siege of Jerusalem.jpg (371 KB, 858x598)

371 KB JPG

>>65105317

The Romans and pretty much all European colonial empires went out of their way to recruit foreign levies. It was always more

>Romans plus Jews they had bought off/joined them because they wanted the perks of Roman citizenship vs. Jews who wanted to remain independent of Roman rule

than just

>Romans vs. Jews

>>65104862
Yes, but not in the sense that handing out candy for dropping a JDAM on some guys lawn.

The true hearts and minds tactic is establishing technocratic states and ruthlessly forcing it on the population. You, as the invader, need to become the ultimate intermediary for everything and you have to ensure you are the only issuer of goodboy points that allow human life to be sustained in your AO.
you want to drive a car? Time for a driving test with the occupier driving school.
You want the water/food rations being handed out? No problem, here's your iraqi EBT card that we can control and turn off when we choose to. No your brother needs to get one too if he wants a ration. Yes, all your 16 cousins need to show up themselves. You're a farmer? Well register at the occupational district office with your biometrics please then we'll allow you to pick a days worth of fertilizer. Want to farm opium? Sure, just be sure to get your opium farming license and expect some boys coming by to inspect your farm for "compliance".

Meanwhile the violent part of the counterinsurgency should not so much follow on prosecuting insurgents directly, but rather prevent insurgents from undermining your authority. I.e. If you have to decide between blowing up a black market or a top level insurgency meeting you go for the black market. Burn down the farm of the guys who didn't get their opium licenses.

That way you create a permanent incentive structure where supporting your occupation means: water/food/medical supplies/jobs/electricity and resisting your occupation means life as a fugitive.

>>65104862
It never works. You won't win hearts and minds without outright subjugating the people first, to do it the other way around is just giving away free stuff that will be forgotten or even used against you later.

>>65104917
It's Chinese candy, the two might not be mutually exclusive.

>>65104862
If you are invading a country, the locals will always hate you.

>>65105098
>believes this
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>65104862
It is important; it can be a handicap if improperly implemented
If the locals hate you, the insurgents have an effectively unlimited recruitment pool, can move freely, hide anywhere etc.
If the locals like you more than the insurgents, they will not join the insurgent cause, will actively shun them, which cuts them off supplies, and will actively snitch on them
However the key to that is that their lives need to tangibly improve from the pre-invasion status quo, which is frankly really difficult and expensive to do effectively

>>65104924
Guerilla warfare is not a sophisticated strategy which magically invalidates common military doctrine. It is just a a weaker force focusing on hit-and-run tactics rather than enganging their adversary on open field. What the Japanese did on the islands or in Burma was for the most part not too different from how the Vietcong or the guerillas in Myanmar fought.
Fact is, Japan and Germany got defeated and after WW2 not a significant numbers of natives were willing to raise up Arms against the American Occupiers.

>>65104870
It's almost like they expected soldiers to actually shoot the enemy and not hide and wait for an airstrike like a bunch of pussies they are.

>>65106016
I think they were trying to keep the causalities to a minimum on both sides.

Remove water privileges from nearby villages that don`t comply and fully cooperate.

>>65106016
What if they kill a civilian when they shoot the building?

>>65104862

>Hearts and minds
Nobody cared about that
>The boy fucking warlords embezzling our funding are somehow better than the boy fucking warlords who won't take our money
Is the more realistic situation

>>65105098
>all you'd have to do
>take care of their every political grievance, respect their values, tend to their smallest difficulties, and generally just serve them unconditionally while fighting their former masters

>>65105098
You don't genuinely believe this right? Do you understand how enormously expensive that would be? You'd need the GDP of a nation just for the fucking healthcare, nevermind the housing, pensions and UBI

>>65104862
its viable just too granular like you obviously want to hit vitals a headshot/heartshot is ideal but in a fight you just shoot as much as possible and hole you hit something

>>65105161
You're just repeating the same bullshit at me. Again, tell it to the Assyrians. They actually tried your idiocy.

>>65105176
>Vietnam
>The locals were happy.
You don't actually believe this, do you?

>>65104862
>Is "Hearts and Minds" a viable counter insurgency tactic or is it just a handicap?
Handicap. The people who have their minds set on hating us are not going to change because we give them slaps on the wrist.

>>65106237
I'm just repeating what Vietnamese people told me.

>>65105436
This is an interesting prospect
Has such a scheme worked before?

>>65105332
Id go as far as saying breakway states/regions joining Canada or Mexico wouldnt even qualify as foreign occupation given how integrated culturally and economically the US's two geographical neighbors are.
Certainly not the same as China sending an amphibious flotilla to Miami to conquer it by force, or something.

>>65106324
Of all places why Miami

File: 1489198159833.png (584 KB, 1200x1000)

584 KB PNG

>>65105332
>>65106324
There is no path where a US breakaway could join Canada because Québec would veto a huge influx of English-speakers trying to join Canada.

>>65104862
"Hearts and Minds" works when you apply it to the right people. There is no unified "heart and mind" of an entire country, you win over the ones who can get things done, and turn a blind eye to what they do the other groups.
>>65104894
>If you are good enough at military stuff it becomes much more like law enforcement
This was solved thousands of years ago. Dump your own population in the newly conquered area, and make the day to day peacekeeping their problem

>>65104924
Germany tried, Western allies heavily utilized death squads to take out male lineages, and Soviets forced mass population relocations.

File: 1759780476405[1].png (36 KB, 656x461)

36 KB PNG

>>65104862
Hearts and minds is a factor of COIN operations. It is not the only one. That's what we learned from Vietnam. Just going for a body count doesn't work. Naked metrics like k/d ratios are not useful in and of themselves, though they are useful to demonstrate military superiority. The point is to take out insurgent elements while not instigating conflict with the native population and therefore make more insurgents. The failure of Afghanistan wasn't that were were building their nation up. It's that we weren't ruthless enough about it. What we should have done is educate their kids with our teachers. Tech them our language, raise them to be the future leaders, stateside if necessary, and then send them back to rule in our stead. We had 20 years to do that, and we didn't.

>>65106324
The civil war scenario that was posted a few years ago kinda highlighted why any invasion isn't worth the trouble. The geography alone is a functional repellant.

>Rolling grassland, no cover
>Rolling grassland, no cover
>Rolling grassland, no cover
>Wide river with a narrow fucking bridge
>Rolling grassland, no cover
>Misty forests
>Mountains
>Cement factory shoved in mountain's armpit
>More misty forests and rolling hills with little to no cover
>CASINO!

>>65106516
Estonia is still here, Chile could've worked, Germany never did any of that shit.

>>65104862
it is, unless it's just play pretend for PR while dronestriking weddings and blowing up reporters

>>65105294
How is it that fucking pregnant Anne Frank poster knows this, but nobody else wants to accept it? The fact is that politics always gets in the way. It's the same reason the Kurds won't fight for us in Iran, because last time we used them, we left them out to dry for the sake of appeasing the fucking Turks of all people.

>>65106324
The US is far more likely to build itself into a multinational union state through closer integration with Canada and Mexico than to break apart only to have its pieces absorbed by its neighbors.

>>65106140
Not if you hop state by state

>>65104862

Counterinsurgency begins with providing legit governance. Nobody wants to admit this but Taliban won by being less corrupt than the US puppets, that went a long way in building community support. Hearts and Minds only works when the government you're trying to legitimize can rule outside of the nations capital.There's a reason Kharzai was nicknamed the President of Kabul.

>>65106557
The failure of Afghanistan wasn't that were were building their nation up. It's that we weren't ruthless enough about it. What we should have done is educate their kids with our teachers. Tech them our language, raise them to be the future leaders, stateside if necessary, and then send them back to rule in our stead

That might give you a few elected leaders here and there but reaching the poorest areas (the Taliban strongholds) would still be impossible.Your puppets would still be motivated by money flowing from the US, they'd still have embezzling, they'd still have western corruption,all of that is pure gold for the Taliban to exploit.

>>65107503
(forgot to greentext)

>The failure of Afghanistan wasn't that were were building their nation up. It's that we weren't ruthless enough about it. What we should have done is educate their kids with our teachers. Tech them our language, raise them to be the future leaders, stateside if necessary, and then send them back to rule in our stead

>>65106446
Quebecois hate Americans enough to accept it out of spite.

File: f54.jpg (96 KB, 399x750)

96 KB JPG

>>65106324
First off, the Chinese navy would have to get within striking distance of Florida, Taking the long way around the globe past every friendly nation and satellite. This gives the US military ample time to see them coming and stage forces in the Atlantic, gulf and Caribbean.

But let's just say by some miracle the Chinese invade florida.
The east coast is one long 100 mile track of an endless city that stretches from Jupiter to south of Miami in Homestead. Densely populated by millions of "Florida-men" and their arsenal of privately owned weapons. not to mention organized gangs in Miami, Lauderdale, and Palm Beach county. Navy and airforce bases located in the keys and panhandle and several national guard units.

The west cost, from the gulf side isn't much better with only 2 major ports capable of supporting logistics and miles of shallow draft sandy beaches that lead into impassable swamps crisscrossed by narrow roads for choke points. No elevation to place artillery on making it a treacherously slow, exposed advance across hostile terrain.

Northern Florida
Is very close to Savannah, Home of the 3rd ID and 1st Battalion 75th Ranger Regiment And while an amphibious landing here would offer less resistance it would effectively put them on the back door of Eglin Airforce base and surrounded on all sides by military units from the north south and west.

Go on, Invade Florida, I dare you.

>>65104862
Hearts and minds is the only viable counter-insurgency method, unless you want to just genocide the lot.
The US just didn't reach any of their hearts or minds, because instead of seeing things from the locals' perspective, the jackasses tried to export Democracy and Freedom to a backwater Islamic shithole. Same shit as happened in Vietnam. Burgers are too self-centered at every level of thought to even be capable of understanding other peoples.

File: Emperor_Hirohito_and_Gene(...).jpg (189 KB, 960x1215)

189 KB JPG

>>65105133
>Ah, you're just shitposting or going off what you want to think, rather than what people actual thought. Alright.
2 million people greeted and cheered for MacArthur on his last visit to the Philippines. He was revered across Asia, especially by the Japanese because he protected Emperor Hirohito from retribution and allowed him to remain as emperor.
You are brown and suffer from white envy

>>65104894
>The idea that you can kill your way to victory against an insurgency is complete fantasy.
Which is why no place has ever been successfully conquered in the history of the entire world.

You gotta monopolize order and stability in the country.

When life sucks and there is chaos all around people will naturally look for a uniform as order is a sacred virtue in almost all cultures and people.

Dont think charity will win, but if you can show people that you are better at delivering justice and going hard on crime than they will favor you.

That's the issue. We let the Bachi Bazi pervs and corrupt oligarchs run rampant in Afghanistan and we also turned a blind eye to the corruption in South Vietnam.. especially today when everyone hates the rich. Having the occupational force go after em will do wonders. Cause a civilian is like
>What the fuck is the difference? Corrupt rich people are still fucking me over and I still have to worry about protection rackets and my town crumbling from lack of funds cause the mayor embezzles them.
So you just got a bunch of apathetic civilians who arent gonna snitch if they see insurgents smuggling weapons through their neighbors house.

Idk what we could have done in Vientam tho...issue was we always seemed to be chasing shadows and being a minute too late to stop the VC from terrorizing a village and or forcing their compliance. Even if we stabilized and had 100% people support in South Vietnam thats only half the country.

So I dont think hearts and minds would have worked for that war since you have to occupy the entire region, meaning going up north and occupying it.

>>65104878
Russia won both Germany and Japan they destroyed Wehrmacht and were first in Berlin and Japan surrendered only after Russia declared war so your point is null.

>>65109175
Vietnam literally worked, though delayed.
Now they make my t-shirts and eat my McDonald’s.

>>65108877
East Coast is suicide. Best bet and Weakest Links are California and Texas as they are independent minded. Definitely gonna need to use all your Intelligence agencies willpower and cunning to promote their independence movements and fracture loyalty to the Union.
Part of Cali is already red leaning. So if a civil war did happen the PLA can have some red version of hezbollah take arms in California. If they can secure a port like San Francisco then the PLA can send direct support or just straight up send forces to help take the rest of Cali and maybe Washington-Oregon. Then its a matter of staying there. Building some socialist paradise that wins the hearts and minds (or at least make it seem that way on a surface level) and go one state at a time. The Rockies are a nice natural barrier to secure the West.
As for Texas not so much occupation but promoting secession and independence and again sponsoring some armed force to secure a port and lend them supplies and volunteers. Once they secure the whole state, they'll declare their independence and stay out of it and make sure Union forces stay out of it. I doubt the PLA can do it since Texas hates pinkoism. So you might need the Z monkes to chip in and be responsible for that front as they can appeal to Texan conservatism. Hell since ever Jeet expat is somehow ultra nationalistic towards their country despite refusal to live in it. They can probably work as sleeper agents if India wants to chip in too.
With Cali and Tex gone its now realistically possible. But holy hell is it gonna cost a LOT of money and probably a century long conflict. It would probably just be better to just have Cali and Texas join your political bloc peace out with the crippled Union and leave the rest alone. As losing those states is enough of a black eye.
Im only using the countries mentioned cause everyone else has no reason to go against the Union as everyone's economy depends on Wall Street not being a smoking ruin.

>>65109249
Idk i see a lot of flips and americans hate him now cause of how he left his men and the flips to hang out and dry when he retreated. Could be culture war shit. I just see a lot of
>MacArthur is overrated and an asshole who got americans killed. He is one of the worst generals
>Patton took credit for others work. He sucked
Shit like that.

>>65109821
>Russia won
lol no. They didn’t even win their own home turf battles without lend lease.

>>65109821
What exploded in russia this time Vatnigger?

>>65109268
>Which is why no place has ever been successfully conquered in the history of the entire world.
The tactics it would require to do that in the modern day would be corrosive to culture at home as well. We are not the Roman Empire. We're the United States of America. We don't do genocides to conquer a country. We didn't want to rule Afghanistan.

>>65106565
>Estonia is still here
Yeah, because Soviets absolutely smothered the civilian population and made it apparent their options were, live under Sovier Rule, or not live at all

>>65110160
DING DING DING CORRECT.
Internet tankies/third worlders/chuds tend to call modern America the "American/Amerikkkan/Weimerican Empire" but completely ignore the most basic tenets of a empire. If America was a empire then we would have wayyy more than 50 stars on the flag, and Israel would be well within Greater Zion status by now.

>>65104862
It's the gold standard I'd say. If you don't give the locals a reason to hate you then they aren't going to work against you and in some cases, work WITH you against the insurgents as they lose legitimacy in the eyes of the community.

>>65106500
Yeah the solution was so obvious, just send a million Americans to start a new life in Afghanistan

>>65110221
>send a million dindus to Afghanistan
WARCRIME

>>65110210
>If you don't give the locals a reason to hate you then they aren't going to work against you
The mere presence of a foreign military is enough of a reason for insurgency. It needs to go further, combining two essential elements: the military must be the arbiter of stability on behalf of a legitimate local authority. Legitimacy and stability.

>>65104894
>The idea that you can kill your way to victory against an insurgency is complete fantasy.
it worked for people like tamerlane

>>65110461
The same unsustainable Timurid empire that exploded?

>implying jawas have hearts or minds

>>65108877
You forgot to mention that FL is home to 100+ airfields with runways exceeding 6500ft. Even a US CSG would have to commit it's entire air wing to do nothing but runway cratering for weeks to shut up the floridian air force. Even then they still could turn thousands of miles of highway and state roads into airfields with every adjacent westfield mall becoming a fighter base with ice rinks and food courts.

or the ICW which is basically an OP logistics highway along the coast. And I don't think it's appreciated how waterfront properties change the game here.

It would be a terrible idea to invade florida by sea, but it would be fantastical kino. Could you imagine Hulk Hogan's house becoming an impromptu command center? or the air force flying sorties from Travolta's air park. Like imagine the PLAN intel when they find out the guys who sank their ship just left Disneyworld to get grab a grouper sandwich. Not to mention the genocide that would happen if they hurt a manatee or a dolphin.

File: White Rabbit.jpg (78 KB, 631x611)

78 KB JPG

>>65105532
>It's Chinese candy, the two might not be mutually exclusive
Fuck you.

A lot of Chinese candy is poor, their cuisine doesn't do sweets well.
Picrel is quite good though.

File: Anne.jpg (203 KB, 450x450)

203 KB JPG

>>65106581
>How is it that fucking pregnant Anne Frank poster knows this
TBF they claim to be a gang.
Some might be more retarded than others in the pafg

>>65106581
>us
You mean Israel.

>>65104909
>goal of Palestinians since day one is the complete extermination of all Israelis
Good.

File: 28093185_p0.png (398 KB, 1200x630)

398 KB PNG

>>65109268
You don't need genocide to accomplish that, just a will to control the means of livelihood so the locals have no choice but to concede. Before WWI, the civilian and military infrastructure were one of the same which is reflected in the logistic formations at the time; to render the enemy pacified, you were expected to take all their farms and wells.
North Korea still functions this way, only instead of hiding behind the civilian moniker it conscripted the entirety of its sustenance infrastructure. Farmers are soldiers.

>>65109884
I can see the hate for McArthur, but anyone comparing Patton to him is doing a disservice to the American military seeing as Patton was one of the major forces behind modernizing it to the detriment of his pet branch.

File: AGM-114R-9X.jpg (29 KB, 480x362)

29 KB JPG

>>65104894
>If only there was a weapon the was longer range than a knife but less destructive than a bomb

File: 4221.png (1.04 MB, 1064x597)

1.04 MB PNG

>>65110500
>Implying they have a fuck to give.

>>65104862
browns have an instinctive drive to kill whitey, so 'hearts and minds' is impossible

>>65104894
>You can't kill your way to victory against an insurgency
>hasn't seen the Sri Lanka's Killing Fields

So turns out you can actually kill your way to victory against an insurgency. You just have to commit war crimes and count on nobody being interested or capable enough to get you into court for it. They wouldn't do it if it didn't work.

Not to promote war crimes, but it is a working strategy by definition.
Insurgency can only exist with the help of the population, so you punish the population for protecting the insurgency and to kill insurgency which hides in the population. The terrorists think they turn the tables on you by hiding among the population, so you turn the tables against them by being worse than they are. And no amount of giving out candies to children is going to change the fact that the child and the child's parents will support local terrorists. Both out of hatred towards you for invading in the first place and because the terrorists intimidate them in ways in which you can't offer meaningful protection. Assassinations don't really work either because... well, of the organization. Somebody's going to take their place and they'll continue where they left off.

File: concern.jpg (67 KB, 680x571)

67 KB JPG

>>65104975
>Fucking nobody is cool when it becomes their own mothers and daughters.
Trump voters make up like 30% of the pop, no?.

>>65104975
>Machiavelli said that it's best to be BOTH. And even when you have to choose and go the fear route, you can't make people hate you by interfering with their women and property.
I get why people misquote that maxim but it always amuses me that the people saying this imagines themselves as the prince and don't realise that this exact task is assigned to the too-ambitious captain who is sent to crush the occupied populace into submission and once complete, the prince swoops in, makes promises, Is shocked by the brutality of the occupation and to prove it, executes the captain for warcrimes to mark a new era where the mistakes of the past will not be repeated.

File: COIN Graph.jpg (74 KB, 1264x772)

74 KB JPG

COIN is kind of a mess to deal with because it encompasses a lot of things and puts the political aspect of military conflict in the forefront, which sucks for people who just like to discuss which is the best tank/plane/rifle. For the sake of argument, let’s take the extremely oversimplified graph I made which puts insurgent capabilities in the X axis and the “legitimacy” (with very big quotation marks) on the Y axis. By insurgent capabilities I’m encompassing a lot of things including total manpower, popular support, weapons, equipment, training, etc. By COIN state “legitimacy” I also mean a lot of things, including troop morale, the support of the local population, support of the population to which the state answers (these two can be the same!), international support, and other vague stuff.
To illustrate I added a bunch of examples on the graph, where their approximate positions are more important than any absolute number that you might assign to their positions. On the top left corner you have small groups of terrorists which can be mostly dealt with by police forces, and on the right-hand corner you have resistance forces trained and supplied by a state actor against an invader.
>The goal of the insurgent is to move down and to the right, by increasing their own capabilities and decreasing the state’s ability and willingness to fight them, until it reaches a point where it has more legitimacy than the state which is fighting it, and can supplant it in the territory. The goal of the state is to prevent that from happening.
I should note that the exact position of the insurgency in the graph varies over time and across the territory. For instance, you can have a government which has a firm grip on the urban centers, where it enjoys popular support and is able to monitor and control the population, but at the same time the insurgents run free in the country, where only heavily armored convoys can move, and only on the main roads.
1/2

>>65115209
>Hearts & Minds vs. Use of force
This is a false dichotomy, and there is a time and place for each. Sometimes you can even do both at the same time, such as when you use force to eliminate a group of guerrillas extorting food and medical aid from a village: the villagers see that you’re competent and that you care about them, and the guerrillas… well, they get killed. If the guerrillas got started as a reaction to something like government officials abusing their power over an ethnic minority, or large landowners pushing subsistence farmers off their land, then fixing those problems will help against the guerrillas, but doing that by itself almost certainly won’t make those angry armed guys in the mountains surrender. If all you do is kill the guerrillas and not fix those systemic problems, then that’s like calling a terminator but continuing to leave food on the counters and floor and the doors and windows open: the vermin will just come back.
Can you just brute force your way to victory over an insurgency? Sure, as long as your ultimate goal in the territory doesn’t require the population to be alive and cooperative in anyway, i.e. a campaign of extermination. Every military action is done to achieve a political goal. If that goal isn’t achieved and you leave, you didn’t win, regardless of how many enemy you killed, how many battles you won, and how much territory you controlled. If your goal is “establish a stable friendly regime in the country which is able to remain in power and thrive after we leave” and you leave without establishing said regime, you lost. Claiming otherwise is like saying that you achieved your goal of building a house because you stacked a lot of bricks, poured a lot of concrete, and laid miles of electrical wiring, even if what you did was make a concrete-filled smokestack wrapped in copper. That may the the world's greatest lightning rod, but it's not a house.
2/2

>>65104870
Hi Pete. The Soviets did this, and it didn't win them the war.

>>65104862
It's viable, and to an extent necessary.

It's Vae Victus principles. You can beat a population down as much as you want, but if they want to resist, they'll resist, and it's not feasible to spend time and resources putting guys out there to keep beating them down to a save level, because they have a hundred guys to every one of yours.

H&M is vital because it stops the population doing that without you needing to break the population in a full ass war. The population sees you're chill guys who like making the place safe and stable, and will be nice if the situation allows it, so the population plays nice and you can focus on the small group trying to work the population up to anger. And not treat them all like hostiles, which will just fuel tensions against you and make them all hostiles.

Of course, it fails when retard 'special' forces decide they're too important to bother with pussy shit like being nice, and too important to risk in an indoor action, so they just magdump a mosque they think might have insurgents in it in the middle of the night like hood niggers doing a drive by.

>>65114695
Anon those people have no comprehension their own policies are going to be affecting them.

It'd be funny, if it wasn't about people supposed to be voting adults that are your intelectual equal.

>>65104870
This is fuddlore cope anon

>>65114897
>misquote
NTA It isn't a misquote, smartguy. It worked. So did the asshole politician blaming his gains on a group he executed. Now try to keep up, jenius, the whole parable works BOTH ways. The instant a leader is no longer afraid of his animals, they become dead, if it's politically expedient. Go back to school, kid. Your understanding of that very short book is painfully shit.

File: iss041e074232_lrg.jpg (2.41 MB, 2128x1416)

2.41 MB JPG

>>65110672
For what it's worth if you had a "Homefront" style situation where you get a red dawn event in Florida it would make for one of the craziest visual contrasts in cinema history.

The costal areas are an urban nightmare for any troops on the ground in the older cities. that bleed into endless identical gated and planned communities each one being like a small walled town surrounded by moat-like canals ripe for ambushes. And that leads right into farm land and impassable swamps that render heavy armor practically useless in the interior.

The only strategic "high ground" in populated areas are literally landfills. And like you mentioned there's even gated communities all over Florida that include their own private runways. The biggest hurdle in the state has always been that the east to west highways are very limited. North to south you have I 75 and I 95 and the Turnpike running from Orlando to the east coast but the interior itself is a mess of lonely little roads that cross the center of the state in irregular patterns in the Reddest areas of the map.

>>65104870
There was a point when they couldn't even bring dogs on missions because it would offend the locals.

>guerilla war started being effective against standing armies at almost the exact same point in history where standing armies stopped murdering everybody they could find in the areas they were occupying

Really makes me think

>>65104870
Some of the replies to this are funny
>UHHH it doesn't ALWAYS work
Nice cherry picking, what's the context, what other factors were at play, how long was it tried for, how long did it take before it ceased effectiveness? lmao

File: timur.jpg (7 KB, 228x221)

7 KB JPG

>>65105128
Take it easy there, Tamerlane... sir.

>>65109268
Certainly not north america.

>>65109884
Yeah modern people are contrarian faggots that try to reframe the past constantly, what else is new?

>>65105046
Not that simple amigo. We’re talking about very isolated mountain folk. The red beards didn’t give a fuck about us and why we were there. They didn’t even really give a fuck about the Taliban and why they were there from what I could gather. You go in. Welcome to my village. No we aren’t working with the Taliban. Can you give us anything? How long are you staying? Bye. The Taliban rolls in. Welcome to my village. No we aren’t working with the Americans. How long are you staying? Bye. They live their entire lives inside a 50 mile radius a lot of the time. They do not give one single fuck who is in Kabul or Kandahar or what goes on there. It reminds me of when the Alaska Game Wardens went out to the super remote village and cited the entire village for poaching because they were hunting out of season and taking more than their limit. Yeah okay but they’re just going to do it again as soon as you leave and you aren’t coming back any time soon so the whole exercise is a waste of time. We weren’t fighting the locals. Yeah you find some dudes that probably took a bribe to scout for them or held a grudge over a dead cow or some retarded shit so you find the cell phone, you build your intel network, blah blah blah but most of the actual Taliban fighters we came across were foreigners. Pakis, Syrians, Chechens, etc. BDUs and New Balance sneakers every damn time and it wasn’t hard to tell who didn’t belong there. The locals just wanted everyone gone. The war was a nuisance. Even if you bribed them they’d as a majority just say thanks and wait for you to leave. They do not fucking care about ANYTHING.

>>65114695
> Their own mother's and daughters who agree with conservitard nouveau christian politics
> They're not losing rights to go to school, work, or drive
Silly-ass comparison desu.

>>65115816
War in the land of gators sounds awful for an invader.

>>65112845
I think hating MacArthur for Korea is far more justifiable than for the fall of the Philippines.

>>65104862
Yes.

>>65109821
Russia only declared war once they knew the Japs were already beaten.

>>65104862
Two shots to the heart. Then one to the mind.

>>65115213
Thats true. I think Democratic Republic of Afghanistan made tons of reforms and pretty much became an Islamic republic and left half their congress empty incase the Mujahideen ever want to join amd be involved politically but these reforms did jack shit to stop the insurgents cause they were weak as fuck militarily.

So the insurgents will just see the state as poor dying man begging for a few more years and think
>might as well put it out of its misery.

>>65118169
So how the fuck do you fight an insurgency that is getting unlimited foreign volunteers and has an apathetic population or domestic population that is too busy with their own shit to care?

>>65105098
American homeless are schizo junkies, not ricefarmers.

>>65104862
>Is "Hearts and Minds" a viable counter insurgency tactic or is it just a handicap
Yep, and people saying otherwise are legitimately below 90 iq. If you turn a population against you they support the insurgents.

>>65126289
If you just genocide the population you solve both things at once.

>>65125056
You seal the borders, duh

British South Africa style blockhouses. All along the border, with one roughly every 500 yards. One squad each. Artillery backed within 5'. Air support within 10'. Reinforcements within 15'

Given 5600 km of border, it would have taken ~ 250,000 troops to man and support. (Nowadays with drones you could probably do it with fewer).

Once it's locked tight, you can start stabilizing.

"Hearts and Minds", is handicap imposed by politicians on the military. Having soldiers act in a function similar to police/internal security forces for an extended period is not a good idea.
Providing assistance to established policing organizations, entities providing aid and like, when appropriate, can be sensible. However, the average soldier is trained and equipped for conventional conflict, not for foreign nation building or being source of social trust and stability. This is especially the case in foreign occupation.
Since it is contradictory towards the objective and purpose of any armed forces and dilutes it's function. Which is to engage and destroy enemy forces.
COIN needs to be conducted primarily by local institutions, that are actually capable of establishing a sense authority and general trust in the local population. A foreign military, will never be able to do that in capacity which appreciable for long-term goals at a scale which is at a national level.

It is less of failure of the military, but more of a failure of politics and policy of administrations in lacking a clear set of political objectives and goals. Which instead were nebulous, potentially limitless in scale of action required, and ineffectual in application.

It's a continuation of pattern we have seen Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Viet Cong, Iraqi insurgents, and Taliban can, and did, end up claiming to be fighting against a national occupation.
U.S. and coalition forces could provide temporary security and projects, but they could never become the legitimate government in the eyes of the population.
Attempting to hand off to local forces repeatedly failed because those forces lacked the morale, leadership, and popular sentiments only local governments can provide.
While we can argue Iraq was on a technical level, "successful", it was still a quagmire and is not exactly stable.

>>65106140
Expensive? The entire world economy would be changed by the death of wall street. So who would care. Settle the debts when the smoke clears like how all nations did after major wars

>>65104862
Only if you're trying to have a 20-30 year war

>>65104862
>Is "Hearts and Minds" a viable counter insurgency tactic
No. Only when you can provide security. When you can't do shit about insurgents murdering the locals, no amount of "kindness" will prevail.

>>65115213
>Every military action is done to achieve a political goal. If that goal isn’t achieved and you leave, you didn’t win, regardless of how many enemy you killed, how many battles you won, and how much territory you controlled.
I will beat this into people even if it kills them. It's fucking astonishing how many people try to rate wars by scoreboards and not achieved outcomes.

>>65104862
That’s a pretty romantic and liberal ideal but in reality people vastly vastly vastly prefer being surrounded by members of their own race.

The white guy being nice to you takes less precedence over the taliban who is the same shade of brown that speaks the same language fighting for the same religion as you.


You can even see this in peacetime in workplaces. They hire one Mexican at work, then after awhile slowly the entire work force at your company is mostly Mexican or Hispanic

That isn’t a coincidence

>>65112831
You don’t need to genocide anybody, it’s the fear of genocide that does most of the heavy lifting. Kill enough of them where hey… genocide is on the fucking table unless you cut the fucking shit boys… people start acting right

Throw a couple fpv drones at their capital or places of worship and a little light genocide like actions like pregnant women and children in an open ditch stacked up is enough

If you offer people a better life, they will take it.
It's that simple.

But nation building is difficult, costly and a long term project. Nobody wants to do it.

>>65104894
>The idea that you can kill your way to victory against an insurgency is complete fantasy
It more or less boils down to the percentage of the population you are willing to kill.
I'd say you absolutely can if you're willing to go above 50%

>>65104862
Short answer, yes.

Long answer is that you can't just blow up everything and call it a day. You'll just get more insurgents next week. Hearts and Minds works slowly and you need to demonstrate that you're in control, not the insurgence. It's a balancing act of not coming down hard enough to alienate the locals but also hard enough to dispel Any idea of resistance.

File: adcfbd6133042ca92e464d3e4(...).jpg (53 KB, 640x398)

53 KB JPG

>>65105098
>>65105181
Soviet counterinsurgency in the Baltics and Ukraine post 1944 was a halfway mix between both posts here and is probably the most successful counterinsurgency campaign in modern history. Balts and Ukranians had massive armories, training and battlefield experience as German auxiliaries, partisan warfare experience, strong local support and material, intelligence and financial support from NATO, Sweden and Finland.

Soviets utterly crushed them by offering peasants land reform, stopping collectivization and easing religious rights. Then they offered complete amnesty for any partisan who surrendered or gave up his comrades.

Then what happened? They organized shock units to crush insurgent areas, summarily executed captured partisans and shipped their entire families to Siberia. NKVD/KGB infiltrated their organizations and assassinated leaders abroad and at home. Internal passports were used to track suspicious movements.

They removed any popular support from anyone except diehard ideological nationalists by offering generous land reform, religious rights and free commie shit and made it stupid to keep fighting by offering total amnesty. Then they went full authoritarian commie and crushed anyone left standing.

>>65126313
Germans tried to in Eastern Europe.
See how it went.

File: 960px-Patch_of_the_1st_Co(...).png (139 KB, 617x1142)

139 KB PNG

The reason why we won wars in the past is simple:
We won the war, and then we moved our people IN. We moved them in to colonize, to rule, and to replace or culturally convert the locals.

We don't do that anymore, and so we lose.

>>65129732
Do you have an example of this?

>>65129878
The United States of America
Israel
India

>>65122299
>>65106152
hhheheh

>>65129732
That only worked with older societies it won't work any more with the societies we have in the west. There all to soft and are more interested in dying off for the sins of those older societies. That isn't going into how there willing colonizing them self's with there enemies.

>>65130625
India?

>>65104862
Yeah. You just have to commit to it.

>>65130625
The British Colonies only worked because we could outnumber the locals in settlers but I don't think we've got anybody that wants to live in the Middle East.
Israel's current fighting is a clear sign that it didn't work.
India is currently independent from the British Empire and things got a lot better when the EIC collapsed.

>>65104862
Give all the medicine and sweets you like, but then you blow up one wedding and people who hold 300 year old grudges somehow never warm up to you. It's a puzzle.

>>65129732
>>65131404
It's still the main way to pacify a land as forcing "our people" to mingle with the locals is much cheaper than sending an intelligence agency to get the bead on a locale.
And I think it can still be done, we just need to frame it in a way to make the public discourse twist its tongue.
They're not colonists, they're immigrants. :^)

File: terrypizza.jpg (32 KB, 717x719)

32 KB JPG

People don't like to be invaded and ruled by foreigners.
You have a branching choice here:
Option one is come in, kill bad guys, and leave, allowing the locals self-determination. They will be more friendly to you since your enemies in the region have been turned into a trench full of human-flavored milkshake by A10 Warthog CAS. But the new state won't be a puppet and aren't going to let you sell reconstruction/mineral rights/captured oil fields to whatever blackrock-enron-monsanto-kraft-nabisco-rothschild-pfizer-1800CASH4GOLD multinational currently owns our government. Our elected officials don't get their payday, and we live in a cleptocracy pretending to be a representative government, so this option won't fly.

Option 2 is permanence. Shit instead of getting off the pot. Make the area the 51st state, rule it more justly than the last guys did forever, and wait out the resistance with police action until the new education system does the job for you: this is part of the USA now, you are American, you are Americanized. Enjoy your burgers, unlimited free porn, ADHD medication and mumble rap, little mohammed bin mahmmood al muhammed. Enjoy the gay pride parades. Your shit is ours. We own your oil and cobalt mines and goat herds. This is empire, it works, and it has always worked. Democracy/the illusory perception of democracy is ill-suited for it, which is why it is gay.

File: terrymobster.jpg (771 KB, 597x892)

771 KB JPG

>>65131733
Option 3, hearts and minds, is the worst of both worlds: we're going to stay here blowing shit up exactly until everyone loves our weak puppet government, then we promise to leave. That motivates the insurgency to build back everything we destroyed, staying just active enough to terrify the locals and just irrelevant enough that the homefront wonders why the fuck we're still spending a trillion a year on this war from 25 years ago.
Our rootless multinational overlords get a bunch of contracts the public never understands. Nothing benefits the public or the nation and they foot the bill.
Then one day, decades later, we finally say "good enough" when the political position is right and the strategic position has remained unchanged for a long time.
We leave, the insurgency kills everyone we put in power, and we get a humiliating public loss because we set retarded conditions for success.

>>65104862
its MIC horseshit, intended to drag out conflicts for maximum profits.

>>65105194
lol, no one cares about ukraine and they never did.

>>65129646
and then moved in orphans and shell shocked serial killers from outside ukraine. there hasnt been an "ethnic ukrainian" outside of enclaves in the east since stalin decided to make them into yet another example.

its why krushchev patiently waited to murder him.

>>65115816
I lol heartily at the thought of them trying to take volusia county or orlando. the gangs in crime hills would happily carjack the chinese.

>>65104909
>The stated goal of Palestinians since day one is the complete extermination of all Israelis, and it has not ever changed.

So you'd be happy if the UN forced you to accept an expansionist foreign colony? Invaders lack moral rights, they all deserve to die.

>>65104862
The point behind 'hearts and minds' is recognizing that ultimate defeat only occures when both sides agree that one of them has been defeated.

You do this by winning over the support of the masses.

This is why the end of WW1 was rightfully described as 20ish year armistice rather a victory or defeat.

This is why insurgencies are so hard to fight against. The support of the masses, in various ways and to varying degrees, keeps the insurgency going. This is also why popular criminals are successful (bonny and clyde, for example).

Your enemy either ceases to exist (complete genicide) or they agree that they have been defeated.

If you need to think whether you should genocide or heartsandminds a people then that war is simply not worth it.

File: terrygrad.jpg (10 KB, 393x295)

10 KB JPG

>>65131886

No, he's right.
The thousands of Christians residing in Gaza declared muslim jihad against the state of Israel.
That's why they had to deliberately level Saint Porphyrius and kill all the Orthodox nuns and priests that were taking shelter there.
Because of the muslim jihad the Christians declared against the poor jews.

>>65131404
>There all to soft and are more interested in dying off for the sins of those older societies.
Maybe that's the natural life cycle of societies?
> emerge from a tribe
> do bad things
> grow up
> regret bad things
> realise you're making new, different mistakes despite knowing better
> realise it's all just crimes and mistakes forever
> check out and leave the new mistakes to younger societies

You mean other than the fact that:
COIN, Hearts and Minds, development gifts, favorable immigration, trade deals... other than ALL of that not moving the needle a fucking bit.
Killing all the men, stealing everything, and raping all the women, then salting the earth... strangely has worked every time.

OTHER than that...

>>65132762
Oh, it's the dirlwanger tard

>>65104900
And that italian was Avitabile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Avitabile

>>65104932
wasn't he married to one at the time?

>>65104862
Its one three things you can to against popular insurgency. Others are not doing anything at all and genocide. If you aren't willing to commit genocide only option or at least generation of nation building is surrendering to insurgents and letting them do whatever they like.

This thread really exposes how many fifteen year old (physically or mentally) HOI players browse this place

File: recruitmentfag1.jpg (1.23 MB, 2640x1980)

1.23 MB JPG

Is this the thread where this ugly motherfucker who was kicked out of the military for being a dysgenic sperg rants at us about how we should kill everyone in insurgencies and ignores the fact it's been tried by Soviets and didn't work?

>>65131886
> Invaders lack moral rights, they all deserve to die.
Whose the invader here? The Palestinians are descended from Arabian colonists who kicked the Jews off their land, supported by Britain.

>>65133822
Later I think. He abandoned a lot of his more extreme racism later in life.

>>65134490
Wish we were half as blood thirty as you faggots say we are wouldn't keep losing because half the American people are massive pussies who think mudshit are people.

>>65104862
I give money to a couple of the (White) homeless guys in my town because they act as informants whenever there’s bad actors around

>>65110500
If you said Tuskens I'd get it, but Jawas were civilized merchants whose worst crime was trying to sell you low quality droids.

>>65104862
>hearts and minding a bunch of tribal afghanis
a terrible idea only made worse by the insane corruption of the afghan government. glad we bailed but it sucked it took us 20+ years to realize it was a shit idea. I am having a giggle every time I look up afghanistan and it just gets worse and worse.

>>65128278
It's mostly americans (but also people from other countries) refusing to accept defeat

>>65134566
Genetically the Palestinians are the descendants of the people who lived there when the Romans conquered it, before modern transport invasions usually just replaced the ruling classes.

>supported by Britain.

Its stopped being Jewish land centuries before Britain existed.

>>65104899
The USA and Britain imposed ethno-masochism upon the German people and used the puppet regime to teach systematic self-hate especially with the hyperbolic holocaust lessons and the "Hitler 100% bad" narrative. It would have been better for the German people if the terms oddly proposed by Stalin of all assholes of a neutral German nation (a bigger Switzerland if you will) were accepted and enacted. It would have meant, presuming Stalin would keep his word, an early reunified Germany with full free political speech, freedom of the press, and even National Socialists getting to run for office again.
As for Japan, feminism was imposed as well as the weakening of social orders.
>>65104862
Hearts and minds tactic is for creating an insurgency against an enemy regime. Just let local tribes run their own crap and exchange favors from time to time.

>>65104862
It probably is a valuable in cultures and countries that have hearts and minds. In a country of shitskin dirt farmers I'm not sure it has much effect.

>>65104862
Only if they have hearts and minds to begin with. Browns, especially in the Middle East, are heartless retards.

>>65134271
>Is this the thread where this ugly motherfucker who was kicked out of the military for being a dysgenic sperg rants at us about how we should kill everyone in insurgencies
Seems like it.

>>65134671
>Jawas were civilized merchants whose worst crime was trying to sell you low quality droids.
That they stole from the last town they passed through.

>>65104862
Does Israel worry about hearts and minds?

>>65136827
Only hearts and minds it needs to worry about are burger evangelicals.

>>65104862
Hearts and minds only works if you actively highlight why the enemy is bad, and don’t allow the enemy to form a counter-narrative.

Taliban was able to spread all sorts of bullshit rumors, same with Sunni activists and later Shia Iran puppets in Iraq.

Meanwhile, as others mentioned, our ridiculous rules of engagement left our guys vulnerable and unable to shoot back in many circumstances. So the Taliban could massacre villages out of anger when they were forced to retreat, all while spreading rumors that we were killing civilians, but in many instances we couldn’t even hit back at the Taliban.

Ridiculous stuff. Also, even if you do hearts and minds correctly, some populations will still not like you because of their preconceived notions and prejudice.

Somalis celebrate the terrorists who caused Black Hawk Down to this day. Somali nationalists openly brag in X, tweeting all the way from Europe about how tough they are, despite the fact that the Somalis got their shit pushed in even when they outnumbered Americans by like 500:1 or whatever. Not to mention, the US mission in Somali was humanitarian in nature. They were there to ward off terrorists and secure food aid to stop war criminals from seizing it from the people.

Despite this, Somalis still hate Americans.

Rage and hate.