What if we treat:- Straight punches = Thrusts- Hammer fists & elbows = Cuts- Forearms = "Blades" for parrying and deflecting strikesWould the geometry, timing, and structure of swordplay translate well in unarmed combat?
no, just use actual unarmed HEMA techniques instead, retard
>>65107973There’s one martial art that is similar to what you’re describing, Dembe. It’s African and the idea is one arm acts as a “shield” and the other acts as the “spear”. And guess what? Any useful striking arts look nothing like it because it is the most retarded form of striking there is. It’s literally just the art of the Drunken Barfight Overhand. You can’t take techniques and philosophies designed and intended for weapons and think it will translate to unarmed combat effectively. Even though there might be slight differences to how you throw a punch between something like Muay Thai and boxing due to defensive responsibilities, they still share the same core principles because like all striking martial arts they started with the question “how can we use our anatomy as a weapon when there isn’t a weapon available” and there are only so many ways you can generate power efficiently into a limb for a strike. The fact you would even think of this when HEMA itself already has unarmed techniques tells me you either have never trained a day of any sort of martial art in your life or you are a retarded who is gay
well since there is a thread related to hema, can anybody lend a hand with some blueprints for wooden training weapons? sword, long swords, spears, the more the merrier, need them for a buhurt club, if there are any of them, sigh...
>>65107973Maybe
>>65108114FPBP
>>65108371Stick
OP, you stupid faggot, are you trying to recreate boxing to be as autistic as possible? That already exists.
ofc
"well" isnt the right word, but it will translate a bit. the fitness youll acquire and the understanding of how exhausting melee combat is, will be useful, and the familiarity of being in close combat with someone and being able to summon up and control aggression. it wont translate directly into unarmed combat, but youll be better off than most
>>65108287>Dembe.OMG It looks so bad. Weirdly enough, they use protective equipment on "the spear" but are totally fine with "the shield" being unprotected and getting hurt. They have no understanding of stuff like stance and footwork.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pftlXLfEiXE
>>65107973Yes, fencing footwork.
>>65108114lmao, imagine LARPing at HEMA so bad you end up asking a question like OP's.
>>65108287>because it is the most retarded form of striking there iskung fu wants to have a word
>>65108962>Fencing footworkNo. Footwork and stance is extremely important for keeping a solid base/balance and generating power while doing things like striking while moving forwards/retreating. Even though footwork will look unique from one art to another, they have accounted for defensive and offensive factors in their respective rule sets. If you’re trying to use footwork and stances made for weapons in a striking fight, you’re going to be a juicy steak for anyone with a experience who will instantly see all the vulnerable areas exposed just in your neutral fighting stance, let alone when you have to commit to throwing or defending a strike and put yourself even more out of position. Thats not even talking about how different the range and speed of the combat is. People already struggle adjusting going between striking sports, adding weapons just makes it worse. Again, the idea you can take something designed for using weapons and translate it to unarmed is retarded >>65108905 I wouldn’t say he’d be better off than most, if anything he’d be at even more of a disadvantage because of his false confidence. Even if someone is training something like kickboxing, it needs to be proper training done with reputable instructors with the intent that a regular part of your training is going to be using what you learn against training partners who are actively and aggressively resisting and trying to throw offense of their own back at you. My biggest pet peeve with martial arts today is the false confidence people will get from going to a cardio kickboxing class or the biggest offenders in my opinions, woman’s self defense seminars. Someone with false confidence is going to be way more likely to end up putting themselves in a situation where they have to fight as opposed to someone who doesn’t train and is trying to avoid it. Unless it’s proper training, you won’t be anymore affective than the average joe
>>65109682>If you’re trying to use footwork and stances made for weapons in a striking fight, you’re going to be a juicy steak for anyone with a experiencethat's somewhat true but many common things do apply and transfer between disciplines.during ye olde bareknuckle fighting some people did use a so called fencing stance with the right foot forward instead as righties.
>>65108821I take back everything I said, Baki is the Bible of all martial artists and if they say it works, it works. Disregard all my previous posts
>>65109693and that was during ye old boxing days, look at the art today and it is practically dead because more effective and efficient techniques and strategies were developed. You might see it here and there, but the sport evolves for a reason and leaves these ideas in the past. Karate came from a similar philosophy with weapons as well, the idea that you want to strike hard and first to end the confrontation in one blow as if you were using a weapon to make one lethal strike. That eventually evolved into the point fighting system which is what led to TKD and karate becoming much less effective arts than something like boxing or Muay Thai. Thats not to say there aren’t people who’ve worked to change this and modified their techniques and training to make karate and TKD more viable and useful in a real fight, but in order for that to happen they had to step away from the point fighting and lethal blow mentality and adopt the training and fighting philosophies from more effective arts. MMA has really exposed martial arts for the bullshit most of them are when put into an actual fighting scenario and not just training. So much so that even what people consider the “effective” martial arts still have plenty of holes due to rulesets and today it is basically a known fact if you truly want to learn how to “fight” MMA is going to be your best choice
>>65107973>Could HEMA techniques be used in unarmed context?You ask that like there aren't a fairly decent amount of unarmed techniques IN Historical European Martial Arts.Wrestling with your foe and striking them in close quarters was expected in battle, even under the assumption that all present were armed.
>>65109737>look at the art today and it is practically dead because more effective and efficient techniques and strategies were developemore like it got outlawed and replaced with bludgeoning each others' brains out using padded gloves.>but the sport evolves for a reasonjust because you replace the word degradation with evolution doesn't actually make your point any less wrong.>MMA has really exposed martial arts for the bullshit most of them are when put into an actual fighting scenario and not just trainingMMA has a very specific ruleset and setup that favors some styles way over others, including blatant holes itself. it's a decent system for cross testing various martial arts under pressure but don't delude yourself by putting it on some pedestal that's wholly detached from them.
>>65108287Filipino Escrima/Arnis exists. generally you think of it as dual wielding stick fighting but the idea is you could easily replace a stick with a machete or knife or fist and keep the same basic movementsif your completely unarmed get a stick sticks are everywhere. if you cant find a stick the movements still work.if you only have 1 stick you fight one hand with stick other hand fist.if you have a knife or machete fuck the stick use the weapon.if you have a gun why fuck with hand to hand? but you keep the footwork.just use the best weapon you have and adapt.
>>65109763>65109763It’s a balance between longevity and ability to train and fight continuously VS having one shot and after a fight being crippled for life even if you win dumbass. Put any modern fighter with their knowledge and training regiment and they’re most likely beat anyone from prehistoric boxing eras. Anyone can fight dirty, you probably are a big fan of Krav Maga aren’t you? A striker could kick you in the nuts much easier than someone who doesn’t train striking and generate more power than someone who doesn’t to do stuff like soccer kick while you’re on the ground. A grappler knows how to control you and your body so they can do stuff like take a bite out of your neck or gouge your eye out from top control. Trained fighters can fight dirty too, you just can’t viably train lethal and disfiguring tactics enough to get proficient with them. People in prison will even tell you, if they have the slighting idea someone is trained when they’re being targeted, they won’t even attempt to do a 1 on 1 fight they’ll just jump you if that wasn’t the plan already >You have the same philosophy of the IDF and they’re “biting and scratching” martial art Lmao
>>65109776Weapons interchangeable yeah, but there’s no way you could translate it to unarmed. The danger of a punch vs a slash or stab fundamentally changes how you think about fighting and exchanges. And when you look at no rule knife fighting training, most of the time grappling actually turns into a huge asset to have more so than any forms you train with a knife because you have experience and knowledge with things like wrist control and how to scramble. Of course anyone with a weapon is gonna beat someone unarmed unless there’s a huge training and physical fitness disparity, but the OP is specifically asking about using these techniques in a striking fight, which is just retarded. If you’re not familiar, look up Dog Brothers dojo, they have videos of meets they do with full contact stick fighting and other weapons with no holds barred, you’d be surprised how often it just comes down to whose more intense and willing to take more pain in order to deal out their own
>>65109784>It’s a balance between longevity and ability to train and fight continuouslymodern glove boxers develop brain damage at consistently higher rates than bare knuckle boxers, let alone professional boxers of old.>having one shot and after a fight being crippled for life even if you wininstead of making a scene about krav maga or idf whatever you should at least stop making up total bullshit like a little bitch to justify your modernist dickriding.>Anyone can fight dirtymartial arts are about fighting dirty in an organized manner, if you don't train to defend against punches in the nuts, neck or kicks on the ground then your game plan won't include them and you won't be better at defending them than a person without training.>A striker could kick you in the nuts much easier than someone who doesn’t train striking another idiotic strawman. how did you manage to interpret anything i wrote as the idea that martial arts don't work and training is useless is beyond me.>you just can’t viably train lethal and disfiguring tactics enough to get proficient with themah yes, the lethal and disfiguring tactic of grabbing someone's shorts in mma, or kicking them in the ribs instead of trying to mount.
>>65107973There is a club where I used to live in Dunedin that did this. It almost became a cult, they made people walk the gauntlet where every member got a hit in and no flinching in was allowed. Office workers were losing their jobs because they'd keep turning up to work with black eyes, broken jaws etc. I think they kind of died out once MMA became popular and people preferred sparring without bare knuckles.From what I remember there was a lot of shin stomping, basically anyone is taken down if they get a hard stomp to the shin. Not sure if that's banned in MMA or if it doesn't work without boots
>>65109763What's the MMA meta these days? Eye pokes?
>>65109807cage fighting by pinning people against it and shooting doubles
>>65109803Gloves are to protect your hands and prevent cuts you dumbass, not prevent head trauma. I bet you think headgear is to prevent head trauma to lulz now I know you don’t know what you’re talking about>Fouls in fighting You’re aware that currently there’s a pretty big issue right now of fighters in MMA fouling on purpose with eye pokes or shorts/glove grabbing because they know they will get a free warning and no penalty the first time? So much so fighters openly admit to training and practicing illegal techniques to use for the free warning>Kicking in the ribsThat’s allowed in most MMA rulesets dummy, it’s just not that common because it’s extremely situational. Soccer kicks and knees to the head of a grounded opponent are what’s illegal, and that’s only in the UFC. There are lots of organizations that allow that. Again, now I know you have no clue what you’re talking about lmaooooooooooooooo
>>65109795>but there’s no way you could translate it to unarmed.it does kinda, you gotta keep in mind escrima is weapon based. with the idea of you always have or are in the process of getting a weapon. some guy who boxes or does any unarmed martial art will be better in an unarmed fight than an escrima guy. however that escrima guy will be well above somebody whos never trained. he still has the footwork and movement. openhand is done in the same manner you use the stick. is that the best punch you could throw? no. but the practice taught you where to hit and you have the muscle memory to carry it out effectively.
>>65109807>>65109810Yeah, it sucks and is a result of the rules and scoring criteria like what happened in the past with TKD and Karate. If you want to see some cool and entertaining fights with people who have some training, watch King of the Streets, no hold barred fighting. Don’t confuse it with Street Beefs, those are sloppy heels but Ming of the Streets is some real shit
>>65109814People say it's to protect hands as a cope
>>65109818Just because someone doesnt have formal training doesn’t mean they aren’t useless though, I train with plenty of people who have done it for a while but because of how they train they would get washed by some lifter, blue collar guy, or former con who had a few fights during his time. People really underestimate how overwhelming and shocking it can be to really go 100% with someone for the first time, especially if they haven’t even had any sparing experience. I’d say any advantage someone who trains HEMA or weapons arts isn’t the stance or anything like that but just being in decent shape if they train correctly and at least not totally unfamiliar with combat
>>65107973There are these neat historical European martial arts called boxing and wrestling, you should check them out.
>>65109828People vastly underestimate weight differences too since MMA is weight classed. I remember Connor McGregor at his peak punching some big guy in a bar and he barely reacted
>>65109814>Gloves are to protect your handsyes, and they used to be a training tool to learn proper form and power, now they're the foundation of the art.>not prevent head traumanobody talks about prevention, gloves lead to more head trauma instead because outsiders couldn't stomach the sight of cuts and now prancing faggots like (you) celebrate the idea as the glorious revolution that finally taught man how to punch after 50000 years of practicing.> to training and practicing illegal techniques to use for the free warningif your ruleset is not enforced and therefore the flaws of it aren't fully realized then can't you consider any action to be within your sport and therefore your sport lacking any characteristic at all?>That’s allowed in most MMA rulesets dummyit's not, kicking a downed opponent is illegal unless you go to the ground yourself, punching them is not.
>>65109837To an extent, it depends on how big of a difference there is in both size and training. At a certain point, you do get diminishing returns on size whether its height or muscle. Someone who is athletic (fast and can move very well) and big though is a nightmare trained or not. There was a college football player who trained at the gym for a while and the strength was unreal even with improper and poor technique. If he were to train just enough to learn the basics he would be a huge issue to smaller trained people to actually fight for real
>>65109807Absolutely.
>>65109819>people who have some training>King of the Streetspick one
>>65109843Kicking and kneeing someone in the body while they are downed is legal dumbass, Khalil round tree has done it I believe more than once in a fight. Read the rules
>>65109853Plenty of boxers, nak muay and grapplers fight for them, it just doesn’t look as pretty because of the no holds barred and environments they are fighting in
>>65109861Naw man, it's still a crapshoot. Sometimes you get dudes with a modicum of experience and training, other times you get football hooligans who's entire strategy is winging haymakers and going for eye gouges from top mount.
>>65109852Based ganeposting on /k/
>>65109864Of course, you’re always gonna get people who overestimate their abilities and resume in smaller orgs. That’s what makes it fun to watch when they get totally mismatched and heemed
>>65109851Yep, and I think that's where actual martial arts helps. With MMA each opponent is roughly equally skilled and physically capable and it's just a case of throwing yourself at him and hoping you get lucky before he does.But with that big guy you mentioned, if he was to fight MMA then obviously they'll match him with the biggest cunt they can find. Unlike a bar fight when it's just some yappy manlet who had too many cocktails
>>65109865Name a deadlier weapon than this
>>65109871that's the paradox of martial arts: those that gain the most from them don't actually need them in most cases because it doesn't take much to defeat smaller, weaker, less aggressive and skilled attackers, but the reverse is obviously not the case.
>>65109876Yep, and I'm sure you've noticed the guys who want to pick fights are the ones who get their asses kicked, while normies just have a good night and go home
>>65109871I have to disagree on that, at the highest level you really are watching “le chess match” if the fighters are smart and not just relying on their physicality. Setting traps, creating false senses of security only to capitalize on it at the right moment, actively trying to find holes in your opponents game, lots of thinking takes place during a fight which is why it is non negotiable that you have so many reps of your techniques that you don’t devote any thought to executing the technique correctly and instead just do it off of pure muscle memory.>>65109876I disagree to a certain extent too, the size someone has to be for them to not need training to be effective in a fight is an small portion of the population. I used the example of the college football player because he really was massive and only one guy in the gym came close to his size. Easily 6’5 and pure muscle, it felt like hitting wood when you would throw a strike to his body. True athletic heavyweights are pretty rare in the world and the few that choose combat sports are truly scary to imagine having to fight>>65109874The brain, my fellow intellectual
>>65109896>to be effective in a fightthat's a very broad take. it all depends on who you're fighting and where and the conditions on the street and in competition are very different. when doing martial arts you're matched with similar opponents that are also kinda skilled while outside you don't get to choose who you're up against so it could be a screaming lady clawing at you or a massive gorilla of pure muscle. they could also be armed, have numbers and so on in which case even the best training and size might not save you.
>>65109929It is, but I think the odds of >Running into some gorilla who wants to hurt you>Being forced to (or being a dumbass and choosing to) fight them unarmed. You aren’t always matched with people your size when training, that only applies to actual fighting. It’s very common to spar and train with people much bigger than you or smaller than you. You only have access to so many people in your gym so you are going to get to see what it’s like fighting someone way taller with more reach and power than you and someone who you are way larger than. >They could be armed, multiple attackersAt that point no martial art will save you unless the circumstances are absolutely perfect and you’re a lighting fast boxer with dynamite hands who can 100% guarantee a KO with one strike>Self defense and martial artsI treat combat sports as a form of last resort or useful if the scenario doesn’t require a gun or weapon to be used. If some homeless meth head is accosting your gf or someone yeah a punch the the gut or head is probably enough to solve it. But in a real life or death scenario, a person is legit retarded if they tell you they’d rather fight someone and rely on their training than just use a gun or try to get out of the predicament
>>65109953yes it's all about probabilities but the point remains that situations where you need to fight don't change depending on your size, fitness and so on, if anything being big and scary makes you less likely become a target or be unable to resolve the situation without fighting.>But in a real life or death scenario, a person is legit retarded if they tell you they’d rather fight someone and rely on their training than just use a gun or try to get out of the predicamentsure but i can't carry a gun in my cunt and being able to fight can pave you a way to escaping even if you don't try to face the opponent head-on or try to knock them out. to that end they're a useful tool to supplement everything else.
>>65109985You might not be as likely to be a target as a larger guy besides other big dudes or mallets (no in between) trying to fight you to prove something, but as one myself that just means if it were to happen I wouldn’t instantly think he either trains or has a weapon and would be way more likely avoid the confrontation, use a weapon myself or try and get the first sucker punch in>Cant carry a gunExactly, I agree with you. Martial arts are a last resort, but if you want a fighting chance it’s crucial to know to improve your odds of survival irregardless of your stature
>>65109953>a person is legit retarded if they tell you they’d rather fight someone and rely on their training than just use a gunThe problem is acting like they're mutually exclusive. Even if you do have a gun, you still need to know how to fight somebody.
>>65107973>Could HEMA techniques be used in unarmed context?Yes.>What if we treat Straight punches = Thrusts, etc.What if HEMA had unarmed techniques and you weren't dumb?
>>65110015Exactly, but that applies to both people who exclusively train with guns and people who exclusively train combat sports. I’d genuinely be curious to see how many people who carry guns or train have pepper spray on them or at the very least in their car. It’s an incredible first line of defense for anyone, even if you train already train with guns or fighting. At the very least if it doesn’t completely stop the threat it will handicap them and make you that much more effective at using your training
>>65108114>actual unarmed HEMA techniquesAre you shitting me, or is this a real thing?
>>65110966Why wouldn't it be? Do you think people in medieval Europe never ever needed to fight unarmed?
>>65111006Was it an actual thing, or are you shitting me? Yes? No?
>>65110966thats a harey situation to be in
>>65111006Dude there is no way that people knew how to fight with their hands in medieval times.
>>65111021
>>65107973Soviet Boxing is just fencing.
>>65111124Really? How so? Do you slavs also have a similar ruleset to those of international fencing?
>>65111173No it’s practical. Soviet boxing is just jab for an hour until the other guy gets tired but the footwork and movement look like saber fencing. Look it up sometime, it’s pretty self evident. Like parts of karate being holdovers from weapon binding.
>>65107973Niggers will do anything but learn Wrestling and Striking at a regular MMA gym
