>the shotgun market in the US is so deep in the shitter, the most popular shotgun is a budget model from the budget .22lr companyMossberg was a barrel subcontractor and made mostly el cheapo .22lrs for the first 50 years of their existence. The entire design of the Mossberg 500 was to be a cheaper alternative to an 870 (which itself was a cheaper alternative to the Ithaca 37 and Remington Model 12 and various semi auto shotguns like the auto 5). It's like how the Remington 700 was designed to be a Winchester Model 70 but 10% cheaper. But the domestic US shotgun market is this weirdo zone because people don't hunt as much as they used to so remingshit and ithica went under and no one replaced them so your only choices are bottom of the market mossberg 500 or something like conneticut shotgun company boutique shit and most of the new shotguns being sold are meme mall ninja trash blaster shit. Like James Reaves said in the one TFBtv episode about that retarded boxmag mossberg that mossberg sells way more memeguns than normal shotguns. I'd assume beretta/benelli and the turkshit importers are the same with how hard the mall ninja tacticool shotguns get pushed compared to how little you see in advertising for hunting or clays shotguns
>>65110454Turkish shotguns at least have their gun laws to explain it; everyone there wants an AR or AK, but the only gun license most Turks can get is for shotguns only. Naturally, their local manufacturers like Hatsan cater to this need.
>>65110454tldr
I understand your sentiment but there isn't necessarily anything wrong with lower cost designs. I like the Mossberg more than I do the Remington for example. I think it's a better design. I like my Glock 19 better than my Beretta and H&K too even though it's not as cool. I know Glocks are (arguably) under engineered and should cost $350, but it does the same thing as other pistols do at a lighter weight and with a thinner profile. It's not like they don't make shotguns that are as good as older ones either. I just cleaned my uncle's pre-64 Winchester 1200 earlier this evening. It is much smoother than a $300 Mossberg, but a more expensive 590 would absolutely be just as good as the USA made Winchester.
I've been here too long. I can recognize posters just by their style and complaints. I understand your complain, seething shotgun anon but I don't have anything to say that will fix your autism.
>>65110454>700 designed to be a Model 70Yeah. You're a fucking moron.
There are still Ithaca shotguns being made. It's not the original entity, but it's out there putting out US made firearms.Not sure why anyone should care about what Mossberg used to do. HK used to make sewing machine and bicycle parts. The 20th century is over.
the most popular shotgun last century was from the sears catalog. yeah that sears at the mall which went out of business during covid.
>>65110454Lots of people hunt. Hunters here that are into waterfowl hunting don't want to dress like Europeans and larp as estate owners though. Our culture was always about getting the most effective tool for the job. Semi autos rule the roost here and we've had some nice ones offered in the $1-2k range before Remington went under.Tldr there's no market because as you pointed out there's no market.You should just buy a nice pre Ithaca lefever for $5k and call it a day.
>>65110764Fucking hell! Did these things hit 200% markup over the last few years?!
>>65110454There's nothing new about this anon. We Americans love our cheap slop, and always have. This is from a book written over a century ago.
>>65111155That's a premium model with fancier than usual wood, but Ithacas were always more expensive than Mossbergs and Remingtons, even back in the day.
>>65110454>Remington Model 12Did I miss something?
>>65111166Who is the author here? (Img not post)
>>65111184That is the best gun book ever written.
>>65111193If you're more interested in Spergouts, read his father's book, "The Gun" by William Greener. That has nowhere near the useful information that W. W's book has, I can't recommend it at all as a reference book, but it is quite funny to read the author's rants about how breech-loaders suck (to be fair, in his day they probably were quite sketchy). His musings on the alcoholism of his workmen is also funny.
>>65111155>>65111172I find Ithaca in a funny position where most who want one will buy an older gun which is cheaper and can slam fire. >got my 37 for $300
>>65111172Oh for sure, but their regular models went for around 1000 to 1200, which is fair enough.
>>65111206Agreed. Mine is an old police model from the 1970's. I can totally appreciate the idea of buying a fine shotgun but if I'm going to spend $3k I'm going going to even consider a new Ithaca. At that price range you could get a really nice used double gun, or if you're into pumps you are about at the point where you could buy a real trench gun that actually saw combat. Admittedly $3k isn't enough to buy a really nice one of those, but I'd argue that a well-used trench gun is much cooler than a new production model 37. Alternately you could buy a really nice early Wingmaster if you want a nice pump, or a SPAS-12 if you're into meme shotguns.
>>65111122>writes "the same as">immediately changes the subject when told he's an idiot700 is an entirely different design to the Springfield/Mauser rip-off, dumbass. If you mean "less expensive alternative to..." then fucking say that and you'd be closer to correct. Although you'd still be fucking retarded as the 720 bolt-action series, precursor to the 700, was developed in the fucking 1940's when the market was still awash with surp Springfields and Mausers specifically to make a design simpler to manufacture with less machine tooling. The reduced retail price difference to the Win 70 twenty fucking years later was a sweetener, not the goal.
>>65111175No, OP is just a bit 'tarded, but he means well.The one Remington came up with to compete with the '12 was the Model 10, that was subsequently spun off to the Remington model 17, and the 17 basically spawned the Ithaca 37.After Remington got tired of flappers and belly ejection, they came up with the Model 31, which actually was a fantastic pump, but still could not compete with the Winchester 12, market -wise. The Remington 31 is what the 870 and Mossberg 500 evolved from.>Thank you for listening to my ted talk and please like and subscribe.
>>65111345Son, writing like a fucking 3rd grader and getting assbleed about it later isn't a good look.
>>65110454>James ReavesThat guys a faggot
>>65110454I think people lost interest in expensive pumps when they realized for all practical reasons they did basically nothing better than cheap pumps, please explain what a Wingmaster or Featherweight does that a Maverick 88 won't do without sound nitpicky.
>>65111543Functions properly.
>>65111557Nigga wut? When the fuck has this ever happened?
>>65111543Easily mount an extended magazine, for one.Aftermarket parts availability, for another.
>>65111584>One of the most common shotguns in the US with a massive aftermarket doesn't have aftermarket partsWhat kind of bizarro land responses are these? The fuck kind of world do you live in where the fucking Ithaca 37 has a larger aftermarket than the 500?
>>65111620870 Wingmaster does, you utterly illiterate mong.
>>65111620Nobody is talking about Ithacas but you retard.
>>65110772What was the model?
shotguns are the most cringe type of gun
>>65111666NTA, sure, there are some guns like ARs and 1911s that have bigger, but the Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 both have fucking massive aftermarkets generally speaking. There is a massive difference between those two and any other pump shotty. The Ithaca 37's aftermarket is fucking tiny by comparison.
>>65111662I looked it up and the only place I've ever seen or heard about it happening is people dropping the gun 30 times in a row specifically to make it happen, never once seen any actual cases of it happening despite the gun being super common among civilians, police, and military for decades>>65111666By that metric neither does the 870, or basically any gun on the market that isn't an AR-15
>>65111686>>65111692IMHO a lot of people are spoiled by guns like the AR, Glock, Rem 700, 10/22, and 1911 where the aftermarkets are so large that you can build the gun 100% from aftermarket parts. But those are the exception rather than the rule. Mossy 500's don't have as big an aftermarket as those but it's still possible to get stocks, barrels, magazine extensions, all sorts of sights, and other gizmos because they've been popular for decades for all sorts of varied purposes, from civilian hunters to LEO to modern tactical stuff.
>>65110454>TFBOpinion immediately discarded
>>65111746The most you might commonly find are some stocks. Maybe some barrels. Otherwise? You're not going to find very much in the way of aftermarket accessories for the Mossberg product.>>65111771Increasing the mag capacity on an 88/500 involves actual work. The tube is not really meant to be easily removed by the end user.The 590 is the one you can just about unscrew by hand. An 870, you just thread on an extension (and remove the love bump(s) with a drill or swedge if it has them).
>>65110454That's very far off the mark>Mossberg is just cheap That's the reputation they had for a long time, but if that's all they had they'd be out of business. Turks can undercut them all day.The 500 has a crappy reputation because of the forend rattle which pets a lot of people backwards and causes them to write off the whole thing, but it's actually an excellent design. Locking the bolt to a barrel extension not only cut costs but reduced failure points and weight due to the aluminum receiver. The tang safety is a win, dual extractors and an easily replaceable ejector help immensely, dual action bars and 3" chambers were not standard at the time and the flat elevator helps make loading the tube easier because the elevator doesn't bite your thumb.Meanwhile the actual design is rugged enough to pass extremely abusive military testing. They tested the 590A1 of course but there really isn't a world of difference between it and either the 500 or Maverick 88 other than a plastic trigger assembly and cheaper finish.>870Despite being a more traditional design the 870 did just fine against the 500 up until Remington shit the bed and started turning out completely defective junk. Like below Turkshit mystery slop tier. For years every 870 was practically guaranteed to fail out of the box.>They just sell mall ninja trashTFB must have been exaggerating because Mossberg sells a LOT of regular shotguns. The 2 barrel combos are impossible to keep in stock and Maverick 88s still beat everything in their price range. They indulge in mall ninja stuff because why wouldn't they? It's not a huge part of their actual sales, but it's enough to make money and draw eyeballs. Plus it's fun.>>65110764Yeah those aren't going to compete with the millions of existing original 37s floating around for 1/5 of that price.>>65111656Hi Standard FliteKing. Usually like $200-300 on a used gun rack. You see them everywhere. Not bad, but unremarkable.
>>65110454Why arent there tunable semi auto shotguns? A simple gas adjuster would be a wonder
>>65111993>Why arent there tunable semi auto shotguns?What would the point be?>A simple gas adjuster would be a wonderFor what? I've owned a variety of semi shotguns from various makers and they all would happily cycle everything from very light target loads to magnum hunting stuff. The idea that semi shotguns aren't reliable is a meme that needs to die.
>>65112004Running different loads of 12 gauge reliably, everything from minishells up to 3 1/2 inch magnums
>>65111993It used to be a thing but people hate having to get into the gun to swap shit around to make these adjustments. Shotguns typically have the gas system wrapped around the magazine tube as well so it's not going to work like a simple switch, plus they get incredibly filthy so any small part like that would quickly foul up. The ultimate solution is to have a gas system that can self regulate between target loads and "hold onto your butts" super magnum 3" buck breaker loads.>>65111746>>65111666You can get basically everything you need for a 500, 870, 37 or Winchester 1300. Aftermarket is not a problem.>>65111358Wasn't the 31 also a Pedersen design?>>65111187I've been chewing through it up until I got bogged down in page after page of WW Greener basically jacking off about how HIS SxS design is the best one ever and everyone else is doing it wrong because he has an extra sliding block and every gun that doesn't have that is totally going to break any second.I'll still finish the book but goddamn William was autistic as fuck. That's part of the appeal, but it does get tiresome when he rambles. I bet he was the kind of upperclass twit propping up walls with his back at fancy balls instead of dancing and getting laid (though to be fair so would I).
>>65111979>Despite being a more traditional design the 870 did just fine against the 500 up until Remington shit the bed and started turning out completely defective junk. Like below Turkshit mystery slop tier. For years every 870 was practically guaranteed to fail out of the box.thanks Mitt Romney
>>65112006>Running different loads of 12 gauge reliablyYou don't need an adjustable gas system to do that.>from minishellsThat requires lifter modifications, not a gas system.
>>65112015>You can get basically everything you need for a 500, 870, 37 or Winchester 1300. Aftermarket is not a problem.It's annoying to get an adjustable wooden stock that's not shit and a wooden forend that extends as far back as a benelli nova or 870 or the bantam model
>>65112015>I bet he was the kind of upperclass twit The thing about Greener was that, unlike a lot of writers of the Victorian era, he wasn't talking out his ass. He worked every job in the trade starting out sweeping floors in his father's company, and worked his way up to eventually owning his own company. He's not talking out his ass when he wrote about how gun barrels were made or what action types worked well, he literally did all those jobs at one point or another. I also think he deserves a lot of credit for bringing science into the gunmaking profession. There's a lot of talk about scientific testing in his book. Many of the diagrams are of test apparatus and measurement tools. A lot of testing is described, like the penetration of shot pellets vs. distance, the amount of energy needed to kill gamebirds with shot, shot pattern stringing with respect to moving targets, etc. That's in stark contrast to earlier books about gunmaking (such as his father's), which lack any of that.He is clearly full of his own company' design but he's also not some rando whiner, he knew what he was talking about.Also, I'd totally disagree with him about his design being the best ever, but it certainly seems to be among the most popular. The vast majority of SxS's out there use the Greener boxlock whether they say so or not. It's just a very practical design.
I use a Mossberg not because of the price but because of what has, in my experience, been the relative indestructibility of the one I own. My grandpa owned a 500 that he gave to my dad who then gave it to me, and because it’s one of the guns I own that I can most easily source replacement parts for I have not babied it whatsoever. It has gotten soaked in water, mud, been dropped, I’ve put a bajillion different shells through it, I barely ever clean it, and so far not only have I not had to replace any parts, but it honestly doesn’t even look like much has happened to it. It’s not massively pleasant to shoot, especially with higher pressure shells, and it makes rattling noises, but for something like a shotgun it’s extremely reassuring to be able to just assume it will always work. My buddy has a much cooler Winchester 1897 that constantly has little problems, and that he cant readily buy parts for without having to hand fit them. My other buddy has a remington thats twenty years younger than my 500 and looks forty years older. My third buddy has a Ithaca 37 that both looks and functions like sex but that hes rightly careful and protective of. Of all of those options, I feel like my 500 absolutely floors them in terms of practical usability, while also just so happening to be the cheapest by far, and having a terrifically large aftermarket of barrels, pumps, and tubes that tend to be pretty much plug and play.
>>65110454Is there any reason to get a 500 or 590 over just a poverty maverick 88?
>>65112084500s are made in America. other than that it's just safety placement, the 500 is drilled and tapped and the 500 has duel action bars on the forend >>65112067>trash blaster model
>>65110454>No mention of the Winchester 1100 that competed with the IthacaDo you even like shotguns? It doesn't seem like it.>remingshit went underThey did not go under due to the 870's sales, they went under when they were bought out by "The Freedom Group"/Cerberus Capital Management, which destroyed every gun company they touched.>ithica went underIthaca is still making guns. BTW...>the Remington 700 was designed to be a Winchester Model 70The other guy is right. You are retarded.
>>65110454>It's like how the Remington 700 was designed to be a Winchester Model 70 but 10% cheaper
>>65112143you are a fat, gay retard
>>65112156that award is for you, homosabi
>>65112084Mav88 is a budget model that skimps on some features that most shooters don't need. The fundamental design is the same, most of the things that make a 500 and 590 reliable are present, but corners are cut to meet a tighter price point.>Crossbolt safety instead of tangThis allows the trigger to be more of a module and skips a cut in the receiver for the tang safety, this reducing cost. Some people prefer the crossbolt anyway because it's easier to reach if you have a pistol grip.>Crappier finish.This I think is the biggest drawback. The 88 has very thin finish that rubs off easily. The anodizing on the receiver is not so much of a problem but the barrel and magazine tube will rust if neglected. This is usually just surface rust that cleans up easily, but I've seen it on almost every used Mav88. Great way to get one for nothing if you don't mind spending an afternoon with some Hoppes #9, steel wool and oil. Even after cleaning up, it's always something you have to keep an eye on.>Receiver isn't drilled and tapped.Not an issue if you like bead sights, but if you want to mount a red dot get a 500/590. Cheaper to upgrade than to drill/tap unless you DIY.>ForendA regular 500/590 forend is sleeved over the pump mechanism and can be swapped. On a Mav88 it's pressed together permanently. You would have to swap the entire forend assembly if you don't like the default forend. If you don't mind it then it's no loss.>Sling swivelsI might be out of date on this but current production 88s have no swivels, only spots where they can be installed. Older ones might have had swivels.>Hench en Mexico 88s are said to be made in Mexico, that's about half true. They are made in Eagle Pass, TX right by the border. Parts for them such as the trigger module are made on the other side to save cost.>So which should I get?Depends on what features you think you really need and want. I recommend the 2 barrel combo model of either the 88 or 500 though.
>>65112173Remington made the new generation of cheaper firearms to be cheaper than their predecessors, not be some direct (cheaper) equivalent.It's a refinement of the 721, which itself was a cheaper replacement of the model 30.OP, through misunderstanding his history, is making half truths and other shaky assertions. Be retarded with him if that's your idea of correct
>>65112211keep crying, retardo
>>65112211He's getting clowned on by 3 people. He's in too deep to admit he's wrong now.
>>65112256I wouldn't call them people
>>65112015>Wasn't the 31 also a Pedersen design?Kind of, in that some of it's features were taken from the Pedersen designed 10/17, but the actual designers were two Remington engineers named Loomis and Garrison.If you have all three (a 10, a 31 and an 870) right next to eachother, the 31 and 870 are far more similar than the 31 is to the Model 10. The 10 is a really fascinating design, but if you ever get to work on more than a few you see why it did not sell very well.
>>65112211>refinementHardly. Going from a mauser style controlled feed to some rickety sheet metal extractor notorious for breaking. Although I do like my 721 because I'm too poor for a pre 64 m70
>>65112549>pre-64Oiln's son, the guy who ran fake winchester after real winchester went bankrupt during the great depression retired in 1963
>>65110454Is there a single semi auto bullpup shotgun thats not turkslop that WILL blow up?
I wish I would’ve bought a saiga or vepr back when they were cheap and available…
>>65110454What's the cheapest acceptable (non-Anatolian) semi auto 12ga that I can easily swap 18" and ~28" barrels on?
>>65112568There's the old HS bullpup from the 50s/60s but those were even worse. The current Turk ones typically don't blow up. The typical mode of failure is the locking lug which mates the bolt to the barrel extension failing because they are cast out of God only knows what. Usually it's fine because the pressures aren't that high but once in a blue moon you get just enough casting voids in just the right spots that it lets go. When it does, there isn't actually that much energy and the barrel extension shields the user from any fragmentation. Usually a replacement lug will get the gun up and running like nothing happened. Still a shit design, but not as catastrophic as you'd think.>>65112618Mossberg 930 probably.
>>65112588There are Chinese clones sold by JTS, I don't know how good/bad they are exactly but they are cheap and apparently at least a notch above Turkslop. Far cry from a true Vepr though.
>>65110485>I can recognize posters just by their style and complaints.Are you that schizo from Florida that always posts in MEG threads?
>>65110772You mean the same Sears that used to be a mail-order company and was too fucking stupid to transition into an e-commerce company?They deserved to fucking fail. I bet their executives were women or niggers or some shit.
>>65112566So what, they were waiting form him to retire before lousing up all of their shit?
>>65112783Olin's son was like the CEO/head of the board until he retired and by all accounts was super into guns and stuff so he must have demanded every rifle be super high quality to fit his prefrences and basically the second he retired whoever took over reduced the price and quality of everything Winchester sold
>>65112618Auto 5, I love mine, only paid $430 for a Magnum 12.
