>The Franco-German fighter jet project FCAS has failed: German Chancellor Friedrich Merz (CDU) and French President Emmanuel Macron have agreed to end the billion-dollar arms project, according to SPIEGEL information. Together, it was concluded that the companies Dassault and Airbus do not come together in the construction of a joint warplane, it was said from German government circles.>The construction of a sixth-generation fighter jet should become a lighthouse project for better European coordination in arms projects – and ensure greater independence from the US. Originally, the plan stipulated that it would replace the Eurofighter of the Bundeswehr and the French Rafale from 2040.>FCAS stands for Future Combat Air System. The system is designed to allow fighter jets to fly along with unarmed and armed drones. Unlike the joint fighter jet, the FCAS system is not yet off the table: the joint networking of different weapon systems, platforms or sensors in a »Combat Cloud« should be continued.1/2
>However, in the development of the joint fighter jet, the French Dassault Group and the Franco-German aviation group Airbus could not agree on the work shares and the patent rights for new developments. For months, Germany and France had struggled to settle the dispute. However, the mediators deployed ended their work unsuccessfully, now Macron and Merz have finally stopped the project. Spain is also involved in the project with the manufacturer Indra.>For Germany and France, the failure of the project is a bitter slouch politically: For years, Macron has been insisting on European sovereignty and joint arms projects. Now the most ambitious European arms project to date is failing due to industrial policy discrepancies with a close partner. Together with the former German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Macron had given the go-ahead for the project in 2017.>As a core problem, Merz had also recently mentioned that the French need a different warplane than the Bundeswehr. In the next generation of warplanes, France needs a nuclear-capable aircraft that is also suitable for aircraft carriers. The Bundeswehr does not need this at present. From the German side, the option was finally brought into play to realize FCAS with two aircraft. France rejected this. https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland-und-frankreich-stoppen-gemeinsamen-kampfjet-fcas-a-7e9fbe17-7f39-4259-981b-e3f00c0da9a92/2
>>65219332Why are they ALWAYS like this?
>>65219346It's about diplomacy and domestic economics instead of military.>we need money for our industry's life support because we wasted it on migrants and pensioners, how to get?>invent a new europroject>it's a symbol of unity, independence, and financial responsibility, goy!>why no we don't want to share IP with you>why no we don't want to pay for upgrading factories in your country>why no we don't want to buy enough product to amortize costs>this goes on for a decade>welp, big success but it's time to retire thanks to this comfy salary I've scouted the perfect chateau in the Alps!>new lads come in>we need money for our industry's life support
>>65219346euro trannies are terminally low IQ
>Europe tries not to commit civilizational suicide: Challenge Level -- impossible
>>6521938756%
>>65219332So willl Germany ask SAAB to partner up for a 6th gen platform or will they join GCAP?
>>65219346>>65219363Collective action problem. Everyone wants to reap the benefits; nobody wants to pay the costs. A fledgling United States had this problem when the Articles of Confederation were in effect prior to 1787. All the states wanted fun things like a navy, border controls and a diplomatic corps to stand up to European powers, but nobody wanted to pay for it.
>>65219392Correct! The GDP per capita in Europe is 56% of the GDP per capita in the United States
>>65219346>>65219363>>65219368>>65219387this is good news. Germany and France are better off doing things alone in this regard. they can still work together with different weapon systems.>>65219406not clear yet, the ILA airshow might give further hints. also possible that Germany+Spain will cook something.
>>65219420you would now about per capita wouldn't you mutt
The French will never be able to finance a 6th gen fighter alone. They will cope with the CCA's and Rafale F5, but that's not enough.Maybe they get the Indians aboard.The Germans will probably team up with the Spanish and the Swedes.
>FCAS>ASRAAM>Eurofighter>Europanzer>Hermes manned spacecraftWhy do these pan Eiropean projects always stumble
>>65219113Way to not check the catalog before posting.
>>65219406They'll order more F-35s.
>>65219332Shit looked like a painfull agony but at least now both companies can move forward.As a baguette I can't deny I'm a bit worried about Dassault capacity do build up a 6th gen aircraft alone. It seriously feel like the commercial succes of the Rafale influated the heads's ego of the company to some sky-high level.
Time to get yourself a Turkish plane
>>65219460in all likelihood yes, but that doesn't mean something else won't be developed.>>65219464no reason to when we already have F-35 on order.
>>65219332
It was pretty inevitable, from the get-go. The Germans neither need, nor want to pay for a navalized combat aircraft.
>>65219490And yet they buy the F-35
>>65219499Germany isn't buying F-35C.
>>65219499You'd have to be retarded to not want to buy the best fighter on the market.
>>65219499A is not C, dipshit
As long as they don't buy more American (read: Israeli) it's fine by me.
>>65219519>>65219523FCAS couldn't have different models? Either way Germany is buying into a program where development cos went towards making not one, but two navalized models including the F-35C that nobody but the USN will ever buy.
>>65219472>doesn't mean something else won't be developed.Politically and financially it doesn't make sense. On one hand you have an affordable, capable, battle proven platform that is available now... Or you can gamble with the Swedes that made a less capable 4th gen that costs more and start from scratch, likely resulting in a demonstrator by the mid 2030s... Or join a program that's getting torpedoed by the Bongs, for being broke and Nips being cagey about tech transfers.The Luftwaffe just wants something to replace the ancient panavia tornados, not an airwing for an aircraft carrier the Marine doesn't have or even want.Furthermore, the political will exists now. When Ukraine goes cold (regardless of how) the political impetus and sense of urgency will fizzle out and the Bundeswehr will lapse back into a comfortable complacency.It'll be F-35s, or nothing.
>>65219535We are inevitable
>>65219490If the Germans weren't willing to pay for a navalised 6th gen combat aircraft, then why in the everloving fuck did they enter a partnership with a nation that wants a navalised 6th gen combat aircraft to replace their navalised 4th gen combat aircraft?That said, all the reporting I've seen points to FCAS's collapse being entirely down to workshare disputes i.e. Germany was in fact happy to pay for a carrier capable fighter that it didn't need, but it expected a substantial percentage of those funds to go to its own MIC, which Dassault wasn't willing to accept.
>>65219540>FCAS couldn't have different models?In theory yes, but in practice no. Dassault being Dassault being the culprit.
>>65219535lollmao
>>65219558I would bet my ass there will be another F-35A order, but that doesn't mean nothing else will be cooked. Even if the Ukraine war should die down, Russia will remain to be seen as a threat and there will still be the issue of ADS workshare.
what the FUCK is the point of $trillion dollar manned fighter programs in 2026?
>>65219577can't be jammed
>>65219574Unless something funny happens in the Balkans (which mind you, it's not unconceivable) the political impetus won't be there. The time is now or never because both the Bundesrat and the population at large are content with the Bundeswehr remaining an inexpensive joke.
>>65219589>the political impetus won't be thereI have a different opinion on thisbut we will see I guess.
>>65219540Tbh the F35's development was enough of a shitshow that they would legitimately have be better off making 3 entirely separate fighter designs, similarly to how the US is doing with its Air Force and Navy 6th gen projects. But Germany and France barely have enough money for one 6th gen design, so it was either a compromise 6th gen design that isn't a perfect fit for either party, or no 6th gen at all. Apparently Dassault chose to have no 6th gen at all, so we can all look forward to seeing Rafales as the main french fighter into the 2050s
>>65219346It wouldn't be a problem if Germany hadn't let its jet aircraft industry wither away (or if it was willing to let go of it now). They want this project to revive their industry while somehow leapfrogging to cutting edge technology essentially pulling themselves up by French IP while also defining the design itself despite their lacking institutional knowledge. It's wishful thinking. Same thing about their talks of doing it with SAAB or doing it alone. If Germany really wants complete domestic production capabilities it'll have to join 6th gen a decade late.
>>65219596If only Europe could manage an economy. They might actually have the money to be relevant .
>>65219594Let's be honest, mighty Puccia has demonstrated it's not a credible threat and won't be for decades to come if it even survives its three day irredentist adventure.The second the Ukraine war ends, regardless of the outcome, the Bundeswehr will lapse back into complacency.
>>65219604It wasn't unreasonable for Krauts to want a say if they're going to foot the bill.
>>65219332They need to save some funds for the rapefugees that kill their citizens. They don't have enough capital for both
>>65219564It wasn't the workshare so much as having the lead in design. By getting Spain to join in which resulted in majority workshare for Airbus Germany was arguing it should have the lead. They were altering the agreement and having final say on the design was Dassault's line in the sand.
>>65219577Improvisation, coordination and communication. It'll be a while before drones can fly top priority missions semi-independently within acceptable risk parameters. That's why they're all wing-man concepts, like trained dogs assisting human handlers.
>>65219535F35 reigns supreme. Sprey is long dead.
>>65219617having a say =/= design leadAnd it's completely unreasonable when said designers are critically lacking in knowledge and experience. You don't put your critical future tech design in the hands of people who can't even manage current tech. If Germany wants to waste both money and time it'll have to do it alone. Nobody who wants a working jet is interested.
>>65219558>Nips being cagey about tech transfersWut?Japan handed out IP like candy for GCAP and hasn't held almost anything back.Italy specifically called out the UK's "madness" for not sharing THEIR IP however.
>>65219332As long as Spain, Germany, and France stay the fuck out of GCAP I'm ok. Especially Spain.
>>65219392technically they are at 41% while counting arabs and mexicans as white.
>>65219659Not that I think they have anything to offer except money but is Spain known for dragging their feet or something?
>>65219648What was unreasonable was Dassault wanting an 80% share of the production.
>>65219464I bet it's even worse than their shotguns
>>65219671>80%Adding Spain wouldn't never given Airbus workshare majority if Airbus Germany only had 20%. Don't be ridiculous.
>>65219464Buying turkshit would be like ordering a new batch of widowmakers.
>>65219662>continues this copeCry.
>>65219659If they join GCAP there can only join for VERY specific reasons and will get minimal workshare because of this.Spain for example could at MOST offer their state of the art stealth testing/certification facility.Germany could offer to develop/co-develop a european CCA (neither the UK or Italy have currently particularly far along CCA programs for GCAP).Japan already has its own CCAs designed for the pacific, so japan wouldn't care about giving germany that manufacturing bone, and it would in no way slow down the development of the main GCAP airframe, or japan's own CCAs.France has no place in GCAP.
>>65219669Level of corruption that would make wops blush (hurjet acquisition without tender even after airforce meltdown over it), absolutely zero new indigenous IP since 2015, zero deadlines met within allocated timeframe in previous JVs, "we must have equal say even if we don't contribute to anything" mentality, socialist government and society that changes their mind every few weeks. They literally can only offer money and they don't really have much of it in the first place. The Caliphate of Spain is a dying country that still tries to stay relevant.
>>65219436And you would know about being a mutt you fucking Muslim.
>>65219606This is also my assumption. The increased defense spending is getting politically difficult in Europe (at least in those countries that have really upped the ante since 2022), and once Russia really starts to feel the long-term effects of the war in their economy, they will end up in the same ”limping Bear” mode that they were in 90s. Once that happens, it’s unlikely that military complacency wouldn’t strike Europe.
>>65219535>the F35 is Israel You are a fucking retard.
>>65219563Why does China/Russia make us look so fucking cool?
>>65219688>Germany could offer to develop/co-develop a european CCA (neither the UK or Italy have currently particularly far along CCA programs for GCAP).Italy is already live testing MUM-T flying adjunt and CCA tech in Turkiye with Baykar. Turkiye will soon join GCAP.
Turkey.
>>65219689I suppose that's all par for course for a country running primarily on tourism.
>>65219707unironically correct, countries that rely on their tourism always become husks of their former selves. It quite literally erodes all aspects needed in a society and country needed to make the country run efficiently.
>>65219688Didn't Germany already have the lead for the GCAP CCA? Clearly they're not satisfied with having that as their only share.
>>65219710Yeah, you basically specialize in being a dancing monkey. It's not something you can easily pivot away from so there's no recourse when you lose your luster as a travel destination unless you spent your tourism money developing other industries. If they're anything like the rest of Europe that money went straight into buying the geriatric vote with unsustainable pension schemes.
>>65219703Wasn't Italy in charge of the sensors and the like?
>>65219712FCAS*
>>65219332W E W. L A D.
>>65219420And yet Europeans are wealthier, more prospperous and enjoy far higher living standards than Americnas on average. Curious. It's almost like an overinflated GDP figure based on stock market manipulation, an AI bubble and trillions in debt doesn't actually create real economic strength in practice.
>>65219750That wasn't true even in 2006. You must be German with your head stuck in the pre-millenium like that.
>>65219750>And yet Europeans are wealthier, more prospperous and enjoy far higher living standards than Americnas on averageNot even remotely true
>>65219712>Didn't Germany already have the lead for the FCAS CCA? Clearly they're not satisfied with having that as their only share.The had the lead on most pillars (and arguably the most important like remote carriers and more especially cloud), they had the co-lead on engine. Dassault only had the lead on the aircraft proper, and they they still bitched about it and wanted more.And Dassault is an integrator, they do the aircraft design and all, but most of the value comes from others (radar, engines, coms...) even on the rafale. So when they accuse Dassault of wanting 80% of the workshare, it's pure BS.
>>65219696No your MAGA infested country is Israel. Keep saying otherwise
>>65219449Probably not. No-one wants germans around with fighter plane design, much more likely frenchies will join than Germcucks. If germans are let in it will end up as miserable overengineered, faulty piece of shit. Frankly Germans and italians should design together, they balance out, but then again, italy is not in game, so....
>>65219449>Maybe they get the Indians aboard.What? No. Why? Why would you do that? That's the shittiest idea imaginable.
>>65219760It is true.
>>65219659Implying that clusterfuck is going anywhere, lmao
>>65219795Italy makes some really nice helicopters. I don't know about the rest of their industry but Leonardo and friends have my faith.
>>65219712>>65219729FCAS yes, but with that falling apart they can bring that R&D into a european CCA for GCAP, as currently there isn't one.>>65219703>Italy is already live testing MUM-T flying adjunt and CCA tech in Turkiye with Baykar. Turkiye will soon join GCAP.No they're not. In fact the Leonardo CEO explicitly noted that the technologies they are developing with Turkey could have "spillover benefits" for their electronics work on GCAP, this joint drone with turkey is not a CCA for GCAP.
>>65219750False, per capita wealth is like 2x in the USA to most Euro countries (and don't @me with median comparisons; those are dogshit because they don't account for the fact the median American is five years younger than the median European and wealth is heavily correlated with age.) Median incomes in America are much higher as well.Europe has fallen waaaaaaaaay behind since '08.
>>65219782>Dassault only had the lead on the aircraft proper>onlyit was by far the most important and cost intensive part, and they wanted essentially full control of it with no compromise.they only have themselves to blame this project failed.
>>65219923I mean, sure it's a $100B program, Dassault ONLY wanted the vast majority of the part that would cost $60-70B+ that would be almost half funded by germany.
>>65219750>And yet Europeans are wealthier, more prospperous and enjoy far higher living standards than Americnas on average.LMAOOOOOOOOOOO sure thing europussy enjoy your busride tomorrow! hopefully you dont get stabbed in your 15 minute city. the cops might arrest YOU for it
>>65219866>they can bring that R&D into a european CCA for GCAPOnly if they don't try to leverage it for other concessions. I don't think the UK or Italy are at all interested in renegotiating their share.
>>65219923>they wanted essentially full control of it with no compromiseWhich is completely fair when you're the only one who knows what they're doing. Germany forgot how to make jets and now they've doomed themselves to being customers. I'm sure their pride was worth it.
>>65219346that had a small dispute too but they did manage to settle down and get back to work, it's only the plane part of the deal that was a mess.also once again, the news article omit that germany wasn't willing to pay for FCAS or the EMBT until both showed progress at the same time which caused KNDS to be entirely brought back by Rheinmetal to avoid bankrupcy.
>>65219987>you're the only one who knows what they're doingbaseless claim. Dassault with the Rafale is no more knowledgeable than ADS with the Eurofighter. But this hubris killed the project, and it's better this way.
>muh Saab >muh Swedes1. We don't have the economy to develop 6th generation stealth airplanes.2. We don't have the industry to build 6th generation stealth airplanes at any meaningful scale.3. Saab has already all but officially hinted that they see their future in drones, AI, radar and electronic warfare.
>>65220004Not even 5th gen stealth planes.
>>65219989Considering the development hell that was Eurofighter that's all anyone needs to know. Now they'll never get to make another jet. Another German industry sector fading away.
>>65220013we will see about that. Germany has a way bigger defense budget than France now and despite your claims, a capable aerospace sector.
>>65220004Saab has publicly said that they don't believe in stealth technology, that the future lies in EW and radar technology, they had a choice to make the Gripen NG stealthy but decided to put all their eggs in the EW basket instead. I don't know if a 6th generation fighter can be considered 6th generation without stealth characteristics but I could see Saab trying something.
>>65220013>t. seething frog
>>65219750You've really angered the mutts with this post.
>>65219332Guys I think building a jet like this might be kinda hard
GCAP will fail too. These projects are the biggest vaporware and in any decent run society heads would roll for the gross mismanagement of funds and time being wasted in these projects.
Europe made the best fighters of the 1980s, and had them ready for war by about 2005. I can’t wait to see their take on the 5th generation, no one will be able to compete.
>>65220040>Europe made the best fighters of the 1980slmao this cant be serious, even for this euro-pussy boardand there will NEVER be another clean-sheet manned european fighter ever again
>>65219975italy and the UK currently aren't developing any CCA for GCAP.They're planning to buy an off-the-shelf option from the US, Airbus/SAAB, or one of japan's CCAs being developed for GCAP.If Airbus came in and said they'd take over the GCAP CCA I don't see any reason why UK or Italy would care. Neither nation currently has any stake in a competing effort.
>>65220049Christ you’re dumb. Read the rest of it I’m mocking them.
>>65220054>Christ you’re dumb. Read the rest of it I’m mocking them.....its /k/... shit like that gets unironically said ALL the time
>>65220054You shouldn't be mocking the Euros. When they set their mind to it they can really kick ass. Just look at their space program. This year they may launch as many rockets as SpaceX does in a week.
>>65220049>>65220054>>65220059Average mutt L
>>65219337I know I'm jumb, but I love that France's preferred choice of hill to die on with weapons projects is nuclear capability. France's "Yes, but where do you fit the bayonet" seems to be "Where do you mount the nuke?".
>>65220085We’re doing great. Kid Rock is gonna bawitdaba on the national mall while that ufo probably flies over, then we’re gonna race indycar around the Washington monument before watch UFC at the White House. It’s gonna be a great birthday party.
>>65219856>clusterfuckThat's the j20 knockoff, the f47
>>65219914>Median incomes in America are much higher as well.Yet people in europe live a much better life than in the US. Under every conceiveable metric.
>>65220032>GCAP will fail too.GCAP might be delayed significantly; I doubt it'll fail at this point, far too much momentum.Treasury designating it a government megaproject basically ensures it'll be funded, and due to the way it's structured, all the money goes into a big pool at GIGO, then GIGO actually pays Edgewing (the contractors). So no one nation can unilaterally freeze any individual contractor since technically no individual nation is paying any of the contracts. And the GIGO treaty also stipulates if you stop paying, you forfeit your IP to the other program members, so Japan and Italy get a ton of the UK's BAE/RR IP they've been working on for GCAP for "free", and the UK still has to pay their full share of 1-year's GCAP funding as a penalty for leaving. So it's more expensive to leave than it is to just keep paying for GCAP at this point.
>>65220122>That's the j20 knockoff, the f47lol China already has knock-off copies of the F47 in production.. Changs a busy busy beaver
>>65219750Lmao
>>65220019So capable nobody wants to buy from or partner with them. They can't even make previous generation jet engines themselves, let alone next gen. They're worse off than Sweden.
>>65220150>Lmaothe person that typed that did it from a bus or public transport in their 15-min cityimagine having to check a bus or train schedule everytime you wanted to leave the house
>>65220051So Airbus is willing to develop the CCA to fit UK and Italian demands with zero concessions from GCAP?
>>65220163The concession is you get to join GCAP as a tier 2 partner instead of as a customer; this would include German-specific software and the early integration of any German-specific weapons, though likely at cost, and you might even get minor production contracts for random parts.Also, the CCA can be designed FOR Germany; it just needs to make sense for the broader GCAP needs, which basically any German CCA would be.Remember, neither Italy nor the UK has its own CCA programs, and the Japanese CCAs are much larger (to fit Japanese anti-ship missiles and the Pacific range needs) and likely expensive.So a middle-of-the-road CCA from Airbus will win Italy/UK money just because it can integrate with GCAP flawlessly and doesn't do more than it needs and is cheaper than the alternative and isn't american.
>>65220125immigrant rapes and tax burden aren't a good metric for good life outside of europe
>>65219914>False, per capita wealth is like 2x in the USA to most Euro countries (and don't @me with median comparisons; those are dogshitThe bottom half of americans barely consume anything because they are piss poor. The top 10% consume 50%.
>>65219346Because drone and tank delevopment are DOA and you retards haven't realised it yet
>>65220218>DroneI meant fighterDrones are the future for any modern force.
>>65219464A 4th gen rc plane cope hull with outdated BAe electronics?Hard pass
>>65219703holy coperinho kek
>>65220204Then what does that make Europeans who make markedly less than the bottom half of Americans?
>>65219795>No-one wants germans aroundYeah, but they want the German money. And nobody is going to join France because they want literally 99% of the work share, patent rights, tech transfer rights and rights for weapon licensing. At that point it's less cucked to just buy American.
>>65220394>If China can do it why not France?-France, probablyExcept the French copy nobody, and their designs lack and suffer because of it.
>>65219449France's only hope is Italy if they choose to build a full carrier. Spain and India would likely just slow things down like Indonesia did to KF-21
Lol at people crying at France. Germany spent 20years crying they wouldn't buy a jet from American bullies and eventually were forced to because they did fuck all with their industry in the meantime.France is the only country that can design a fighter. Tbqhwy it won't be a 6th gen without German money but it'll be a fully European aircraft at the end of the day and will certainly curb stomp the su-57.
>>65220443It'll be Rafale F5.The french defense budget confirms it.Rafale F5 is the only plan for the next 20+ years.The current delusion is that somehow the Rafale F5 will have the power budget for GaN AESA radar, new EW suite, and drone MUM-T control.Even though the current Rafale F4 is already pushing the power envelope available from the two M88 engines. Even with the M88 TREX upgrade they'll struggle to find the power budget to run everything they claim they want to run.Not to mention you're fundamentally just upgrading a 1980s airframe and france simply lacks the ability to certify/manufacture a new manned stealth airframe even if it isn't 6th gen.Germany has made mistakes too, but they had their hands tied with nuclear sharing deal, it was F-35 or F-15EX and they both cost more or less the same, might as well get the better stealth platform.
>>65220443>crying at FranceIt was Dassault's hypocrisy, the French state wanted the cooperation because they understood there would only be a 6th gen with Germany.
>>65219332>sabotages EU's fighter jet... AGAINbased frogs
>>65219337>patent rights for new developments
>>65220467It wasn't Dassault that tried to change the agreement made in 2017. Maybe Germany should make up its mind before signing dotted lines. It doesn't matter now anyways.>>65220443Somehow Germany killing its own industry is France's fault.
>>65220840The argument that Germany changed the agreement is completely ahistorical. The original 2017 agreement between Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron was a political framework of equal partnership. The wheels came off because Dassault explicitly tried to rewrite the industrial reality.When Spain joined the program and brought Airbus Spain into the mix, Airbus suddenly represented two of the three sovereign nations in the alliance (Germany and Spain). Naturally, Airbus requested a fair share of the work and access to the flight control software source code to satisfy the Spanish and German defense ministries. Dassault’s CEO, Éric Trappier, absolutely threw a tantrum. He repeatedly went on French television drawing "red lines," stating that Dassault must have undisputed, absolute leadership over the Next Generation Fighter (NGF) and that they would never share the flight control "black boxes" with Airbus. Dassault essentially tried to treat Germany and Spain as subordinate, cash-paying subcontractors rather than equal partners in an international treaty.
>>65220868>TrappierFrench corporate leaders are the fucking worst.t. hate Ubisoft
>>65220868>The argument that Germany changed the agreement is completely ahistorical>When Spain joined the program and brought Airbus Spain into the mix, Airbus suddenly represented two of the three sovereign nations in the alliance (Germany and Spain)Gee, I wonder who pushed for Spain to join after the fact. This is just like when Germany argued they should have the lead for the Eurofighter since they had the largest order of planes only to reduce their order after their workshare was increased. The lesson is never trust Germans to stay true to what they sign.
>>65220894>Germany inviting Spain into the program in order to draw from their various avionics specialties instead of developing their own means that France has every right to be a fucking nigger and torpedo the deal to the best of their abilitiesNah. If France wants to act tough and essentially "go it alone" like they were wanting than they need to bite the bullet and just do so instead of dragging this shit out and acting like a fucking woman over shit that ultimately doesn't matter
>>65219558>The Luftwaffe just wants something to replace the ancient panavia tornadoswhy don't they just buy more EF2000s then
>>65220894Well, don't worry, France is getting exactly what they wanted; they get to keep all of their IP, Dassault gets the money to build Rafale F5, and the French public gets to pretend they're amazing until GCAP and the F-47 are in service for a while, and then the French public looks up in the 2040s and 50s and realizes they're STILL flying Rafale with zero path beyond that, and that maybe somewhere along the way they might've fucked up.
>>65220925>with zero path beyond thatWhat are you talking about? They have the industry and know how and they're doing the R&D to keep at it. They have a path forward. You can criticize the methods and results but they're not dropping out like Germany did 30 years ago, which is why they don't even get a mention.
>>65220902Perfect way to describe Germany except for the part where they go at it alone. Imagine demanding lead when you can't build a plane. Now they'll get nothing.
>>65220941They dont have the money.And they don't have the industry.They don't have 5th gen airframe experience at any scale beyond one off demonstrators. They have zero experience with high turbine inlet temps and high power extraction from those engines. Which is required for proper MUM-T/Sensor fusion/GaN Radar/EW/etc that defines 5th and 6th gens. If given enough money and time they MIGHT be able to bridge these gaps, but it's not a sure thing, and they simply don't have the budget since they're commiting themselves to Rafale F5, M88 TREX, and a new UCAV drone to fly with the Rafale F5. They're barely even paying for the Rafale F5 upgrade program and subsequent procurment orders with the existing budget, which is already strained to the limit. With the UAE dropping out of the F5 program france is having to fund almost all of the R&D themselves, and if india drops out they WILL be funding it entierly alone which 100% kills ANY possible chance of cleansheet new airframe from france in the next 30 years.
>>65220947You're forgetting the part where Rheinmetall started producing the center fuselage for the F35 back in 2025. Germany has been an active partner in the F35 program for a long time now and when they asked to do more for the program in order to help boost their aerospace sector they were able to make deals with the US government. So tell me why can't France do the same? >Imagine demanding lead when you can't build a plane.Germany has far more 5th gen experience than France ever will and will most likely make a deal that either involves GCAP, SAAB, or Turkey. France needs to get their dicks out of their own asses if they want to see a 5 or 6th gen airframe flying within the next 10 years
>>65219931>hopefully you dont get stabbed in your 15 minute cityUS homicide rate is 4 to 5 times higher than EU one.
What would any European country even do with a hypothetical new fighter? Hell, what do any of them do with the planes they have now? Try to sell them to Gulf state oil sheikhs?
>>65220995Russia, Northern Africa, potential Chinese incursion in the Arctic, endless Middle Eastern bullshit, etc
>>65220919Cost. The F-35A is cheaper per unit and more capable to boot.
>>65220995Some still have overseas territories and the odd African dictatorship to prop up for resource extraction.
>>65220997All those are mutt concerns, not European ones.
>>65220997>RussiaNot a threat, never was, never will be.>North AfricaRefugees are not a problem planes can solve. Or, they could, but no European government is going to do that.>Chinese in the ArcticI guess, if they annex Siberia? Still gonna be an American show if so.>Middle East bullshitWhy is any of it Europe's problem? And how would planes solve it?
>>65221003You don't need 6th gen fighters to police Africa...In the recent operations in the Sahel, France was in fact still using Mirage 2000, and even that was overkill.
this place has just become /int/
>>65221044No such thing as overkill.
>>65220950They can get the money from elsewhere and if not borrow. You can doomsay all you want about their tech and industry but none of those are arguments to let Germany have the lead who is in a much worse position in every respect except ease of budgeting.
>>65220964You're comparing begging for a subordinate manufacturing role of a subsection to having majority manufacturing, design lead and final say on an entire airframe. Imagine Germany demanding America give up the lead on the F-35 because of workshare shenanigans. That dissonance is exactly why France is right not to give up control. Germany can't even make jet engines at all. They've resigned themselves to being customers only.
>>65221059If that were true the F-22 would have a proper air-to-air kill by now.
>>65221082It's not for lack of trying. It's just that nobody has an air force worth a damn. Here's a hoping the PLA gets zesty and that changes, though.
>>65221082The F-22 shot down a balloon tho>doesn't countshutupshutupshutupshutupshutupshutuasihuahsu
>>65221067Ahh yes, because they're not ALREADY borrowing at historic levels that economists are warning can't continue.Lmao
genuinely why does Europe even need a 6th gen fighter jet??Russia is basically the only possible threat and they cant even deal with Ukraine lol
>>65221094They could've scored an easy kill in Iran but the F-35 had to hog it.>>65221095If you're the only pilot with a kill but it's a balloon do you brag about it?
>>65221095>RaptorMore like Plaptor.
>>65221134If you quit the race you may never be able to join back in.
>>65220868So Airbus Spain was just a kraut proxy.>two of the three sovereign nations in the allianceThere are no sovereign nations in the European Union.
>>65221192>There are no sovereign nations in the European Union.TRVKE
>>65221067>borrow>one of the highest taxed major economies in the world>one of the most indebted major nations in the worldJust 1 of these factors would be cause for some concern. Both at once spells D I S A S T E R, anon.
>>65221155Who are they racing against?
>>65219750>europoor doesn't know how GDP is calculated
>>65221204Everybody who is trying to be on the cutting edge of this technology and all of their future customers.
ok i will give a heads up on why this is a blessing i will list the biggest fuck ups first1)a400m it was suppose to be a better c17 with jet engines but germany wanted lower maintance which resulted on actual higher one with turboprops because they wanted a new design 2)euromale need i say more? it was suppose to be a bigger mq9 single engine drone ended up being a fucking dual engine failure because germany wanted "safety"3)epc they wanted in with their own variant the rest of the countries said NEIN so its saved(for now)4)croc is so fucked up because germans wanted the framework to be based on the german infrantry movements that basicly the rapid response looks like a steam machine 4)metoc csr sats were suppose to have sar capabilities guess what 5)eumilcom was suppose to be europe's first c6isr backbone NAHgermany didnt want to pay for it and instead argued that it should be a backbone of C2isr and let the rest be handled by each nation those are the news i remember on top of my head
>>65221238When you want to simultaneously join all military projects and double triple down on the "peace dividend."
Lmao Europe. Turks are ahead in the drone game and they will be ahead in stealth fighter game too
>>65219662>41% are holding up the greatest country in the world and with it the entire world.Wow we are awesome.
>>65220027no body asked about your family
>>65221008>All those are mutt concernsno wonder you're thinking about it so much
>>65219332>another failed euro joint projectI WANT TO GET OFF MR. BONES' WILD RIDE!
>>65219866>No they're not.Turkey is joining GCAP weter you like it or not
>>65221356nobody is gonna invite turkey on such program however thats irrelevant cause uk still hasnt funded the program
>>65221356>weterI've never seen it spelled like that before, be proud of yourself annon, you invented a completely new ESLism
>>65219450A lot of the older ones are because governments stopped taking military matters seriously after the wall fell. When a government sector loses gravitas it becomes an arena for political pissing contests, internal and external.
>>65221367>however thats irrelevant cause uk still hasnt funded the programTechnicallyWe already know the GCAP program is being ring fenced by HMT, £6B in funding over 4 years. The only question left is what gets gutted to pay for it.Current ring fenced spending:Dreadnought + warhead upgrade programSSN-AUKUS GCAPType 26That leaves very little money left for the army. The real irony here is this DIP crisis has finally forced the UK to choose between a functional modern island military, or pretend you're still a world power and keep trying to field a land army you can't deploy to Europe even if you wanted to.
>for France, the Jaguar A single-seat tactical support version, the Jaguar E twin-eat training combat version, the Jaguar M single-seat naval version>for the United Kingdom, the Jaguar B twin-seat training combat and ground attack version, the Jaguar S single-seat tactical support version.>French and British versions were not identical, each country requiring national equipment for its model. They could not reach unanimity on the same weapons system and each country possessed its own, the British version being more modernized than the French one.It's always about different needs and requirements.
>>65221594It's also much easier to accept 'good enough' satisfaction of force-specific needs when you aren't also putting money into producing the damn thing to fill those needs.
The UK is killing GCAP with NO SURVIVORS!
>>65221673>thread about France killing FCAS>B-B-B-BUT YOOKAY>crop the dateMake your own thread, retard.
>>65221673That's literally not happening. The penalties for that are worse than just paying.The GIGO treaty stipulates anyone leaving has to give 12 month notice (so even if they formally announce leaving today they still owe about £1.5B for the next 12 months) and they forfeit BAE/RR IP to the GCAP partners for free.That's never happening, which is Reeves is coping by making it a government designated mega project which has ring fenced spending along with Dreadnought and AUKUS.
>>65221684>crop the dateretard
>>65221686The UK won't leave, they'll just not pay and drag their feet till Italy or Japan decide to close things up rather than wasting any more time since both have an hard need of a 6th gen fighter, unlike the caliphate of bongland who only needs to please their new indian population.
>>65221692They can't do that either.The way GIGO is structured, no country is paying for any direct contacts.Each country deposits that years' funding into a joint pool at GIGO. It's then GIGO who negotiates with Edgewing (BAE/RR/Leonardo/MHI/etc) for the contracts.The moment the UK misses a funding deadline, they're in material breach of an international treaty that has a 12 month payment penalty for anyone trying to leave, and automatic forfeiture of IP developed through the program.So how EXACTLY does the UK drag their feet?
>>65221710nta but>that has a 12 month payment penalty for anyone trying to leaveAnd how is this actually enforced between actual countries? That's where things get stickier, obviously Japan or Italy could, like, slap a tariff on bongland stuff or services and try to recover it that way but the bongs could then retaliate etc, but meanwhile other countries would trust the bongs far less going forward which is itself expensive but who can handle more pain blah blah. The point being geopolitics is a lot messier and more complicated then domestic law, and there is much more wriggle room since a lot of it boils down to national interest and it's mostly adults in the room. Japan and Italy have incentive to at least make some effort not to burn bridges and keep the UK on board if they think it'll be worth it down the road. So say for example there is an election and UK is posturing and misses a deadline, but Japan and Italy believe strongly that the government will get back on track right after, they may choose to let it slide for a month or two.Yeah eventually it'd be a breech and could turn uglier for the UK and there is some teeth there, but some level of foot dragging is conceivable.>and automatic forfeiture of IP developed through the programThis however is probably more auto-enforcing, because unlike money this requires cooperation. Everyone has IP and can copy it easily, nations have to voluntarily agree to continue its protection, so if that lapses they just have it already and can do whatever. Same for anything joint property already built that gets forfeited. So that turns into much stronger incentive.
>>65221721GIGO doesn't need to sue the UK in a domestic court or start a trade war. The GIGO Agency simply locks the UK out of the secure servers, stops issuing contracts to BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce, and reallocates that specific engineering workshare to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Leonardo.The UK is immediately relegated to a silent, non-voting default status while their domestic aerospace engineers are locked out of their own project rooms. The enforcement is the instant, cold death of the UK's sovereign sixth-generation capability.If the IP forfeiture is automatic, self-enforcing, and catastrophic to the UK, then HMT has zero wriggle room to drag its feet. The entire point of foot-dragging is to delay spending money without suffering consequences. But if pausing the money for even a month triggers an automatic data lockout and the legal forfeiture of billions of pounds worth of British radar, sensor, and engine IP to Japan and Italy, it becomes an unviable option.One thing GIGO does amazingly is basically force every member to actually pay their share. The real irony is it was the UK who insisted on writing the GIGO structure this harshly to ensure Italy couldn't back out when their governments changed, and now the UK are the ones trapped by their own treaty terms.GIGO is also brilliant because the moment you stop paying into the escrow pool, your status on the Steering Committee is legally frozen. Because GIGO operates on a consensus model, a defaulting member loses their ability to veto or vote on the operational roadmap. This means Italy and Japan can legally freeze the UK out, move the milestones forward, redefine the technical specifications of the aircraft to suit only their domestic needs, and freeze BAE out of the production phase entirely; and the UK won't even have a vote to stop them.
>>65219450>Why do these pan Eiropean projects always stumblewhat language do they speak in meetings?now that UK is (on paper) out of EU, any "EU army" (because can't trust USA run NATO) would have to speak not just English but 'Merican "Hollywood", from CALIFORNIA, English to have any chance.
>>65221721>>65221730Also I just want to add, the last 6+ months HAVE been italy/japan being the adults in the room giving the UK leeway, the April 90 day bridge contract was your final official scrap of leeway from Italy/japan. June 30th is the deadline. We already know from various leaks the past week HMT has basically confirmed GCAP is being funded and ringfenced. Because HMT can read the treaty too and know they're fucked if they don't pay. As I said earlier, paying for GCAP at this point is unironically cheaper than leaving would be.The UK spent 6 months dragging their feet and the bill is now due.
>>65221740the EU has 3 working languages, English, French and German there are still two member nations with English as one of their official languages, Ireland and Malta.but now that the brits are gone there's less peacocking about not wanting to use is.
>>65221730>GIGO doesn't need to sue the UK in a domestic court or start a trade war. The GIGO Agency simply locks the UK out of the secure servers, stops issuing contracts to BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce, and reallocates that specific engineering workshare to Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Leonardo.>The UK is immediately relegated to a silent, non-voting default status while their domestic aerospace engineers are locked out of their own project rooms. The enforcement is the instant, cold death of the UK's sovereign sixth-generation capability.>>65221748I'm not denying any of that, but you reinforced my point. Like, you said "So how EXACTLY does the UK drag their feet?" and then literally reply yourself>The UK spent 6 months dragging their feetso, you just answered it yourself? "Dragging feet" isn't the same thing as "escape commitments scot free forever", but obviously a country CAN "drag its feet" for some period of time to the extent other countries see value in letting that happen.Make no mistake I'm glad UK's feet will be held to the fire on some level, but at the same time I think it's important to be realistic. Like "the instant, cold death of the UK's sovereign sixth-generation capability" well what if government doesn't care because they're fucking retards? Unfortunately we've seen a lot of examples of governments shooting themselves in the dick in modern times because they're ever more infested with unserious short term hacks.
>>65221807Yes anon, the UK spent 6 months, but that 6 months was BEFORE GIGO/Edgewing had been vested with design authority and airworthiness certification. Now that GIGO is fully established none of the nations can back out.Before April the UK theoretically could've kept stalling, but after signing the april contract they locked themselves in.Before april dragging their feet meant pissing off italy/japan.After april dragging their feet means material breach of an international treaty with instant harsh penalties that far exceed the cost of continuing to pay for the program.If your entire argument is "well the UK could burn down the country and just be retarded" well sure, they could also nuke moscow tomorrow, but it's not going to happen so why talk about it?
>>65220985>US homicide rate is 4 to 5 times higher than EU one.US just has the balls to report nigger crime instead of jailing people talking about it
>>65220995have a functional military so they don't get rolled over like Chekhoslovakia did in 1968 or be forced to sit and watch as some raging cunt like serbia/bulgaria rapes their defenseless neighbor that's part of the EU
>>65221816I guess I'm just saying that "international treaties" aren't self-enforcing, and what's at risk in this case isn't anything remotely like nuking moscow anon and you sound retarded for even making such a hyperbolic comparison. And while I agree that the long term costs greatly exceed the payments, the same thing was true of Brexit which is already up to like 6-8% in direct GDP lost, 12% reduction in business investment and 15% reduction in trade volume and it hasn't done shit for fixing anything in bongland. The US has been absolutely fucktarded with tariffs and nato and doing a bad war with iran yet there it is.I hope you're right but I dunno, guess I just have pretty low expectations now for politicians being responsible.
>>65221863You're brown.
>>65221863The great thing is politicians largely don't have a say anymore. They literally have no functioning way to slow-roll this besides throwing Rolls-Royce and BAE under the bus and giving away billions in British IP.And it's actually worse than you think: you aren't just giving that IP away for Italy and Japan to use; you are actively locking the UK out from ever using that IP on a domestic program.Under the GIGO framework, the foreground IP is legally surrendered to the supranational agency itself. If the UK defaults, GIGO owns the rights. The UK doesn't even get to keep the technology its own engineers invented. If a future British government walked away, they couldn't take that advanced radar or engine tech and try to build a scaled-down domestic fighter; they would legally be banned from touching it.You can have the lowest possible expectations for politicians, but they still operate on pure self-preservation. When the choice is pay the pre-agreed tranche or automatically liquidate the entire future of British aerospace engineering on a Tuesday morning, even the shortest-term hack chooses to clear the check. That's why HMT blinked and ring-fenced the £6 billion. The cage is locked.The only real question now is how much of hit does the army take, because looking at the budget, it's going to be fucking brutal.
>>65221865you're trying too hard. lurk more.
>>65221874Mostly this sounds great, and>throwing Rolls-Royce and BAE under the busYeah that's serious political pressure.But:>you are actively locking the UK out from ever using that IP on a domestic program>they would legally be banned from touching itThis is though is silly. There's no such fucking thing as "legally banning a country from using IP it wants to", parliament can do whatever the fuck they want. If they pass a law saying "actually we get to keep using it" that's that. There's no World Police that will show up and arrest them. Italy and Japan can make an issue of it if they wanted to but they wouldn't, what would be the point they already got 99% of the value and won't be sharing anything more?But it does sound like that should be enough to keep it safe. Good work for whoever wrote that and make sure laborslime couldn't wriggle out.
>>65221881BAE and Rolls-Royce are multinational corporations with massive global footprints. If Parliament tries to illegally seize or weaponize IP that belongs to an international treaty body (GIGO), it places BAE and Rolls-Royce in an impossible legal position. They would be forced to choose between obeying a rogue UK domestic law or maintaining their multi-billion-pound businesses with Europe, Japan, and the United States. They would immediately comply with international law to protect their global export markets, meaning the UK government would be fighting its own domestic contractors.But in any case, the end result is the same. GCAP is being funded, the army is being gutted.
>>65221238Don't forget Eurotiger and NH90. Both of them are failures
>>65221765>but now that the brits are gone there's less peacocking about not wanting to use is.Ah I see why the EU suddenly started to make unreasonable demands when the brits were probing how to rejoin the EU. If they brits are out, its just a matter of time until english is gone as an EU language.
>>65221765The French wont speak German and vice versa. It will be English.
>>65222240Half of the French in Alsace speak German.
>>65219332Sfuck'em
>>65221846>Czechoslovakia in 1968The USSR is dead and Russia will never be its reincarnation.>raging cuntLike who? Russia is a joke, Serbia is an even bigger joke, Bulgaria is an EU member. Turkey, maybe?
>>65221740>>65222240Every negotiator worth their salt speaks in his native tongue and uses a translator, even if he does know the other language. English is used casually, not in high level negotiations like that.
>One thing GIGO does amazingly is basically force every member to actually pay their share. The real irony is it was the UK who insisted on writing the GIGO structure this harshly to ensure Italy couldn't back out when their governments changed, and now the UK are the ones trapped by their own treaty terms.That's exactly what happened with the concorde project, only reason it got made was bexause leaving the program meant giving everything away for free to the other country.
>>65223836Except this time, they didn't just omit a break clause; they explicitly built in the automated IP-forfeiture guillotine so they wouldn't even have to go through the hassle of a long, drawn-out battle at the International Court of Justice like the French threatened to do with concorde. History might not repeat, but it sure does love to rhyme with delicious irony on occasion.
> The end of FCAS's fighter pillar is not only a procurement setback. It is a live empirical test of the industrial dimension of European strategic autonomy — and it failed. The concept, enshrined in EU policy since 2013 and championed by Macron as the defining argument for a self-reliant European defense industrial base, rests on the premise that European nations can pool engineering talent, fund programs jointly, and deliver military-grade platforms without defaulting to American technology. FCAS was the proof-of-concept. Nine years and €4 billion later, it could not resolve a three-nation, two-company workshare dispute.> The failure pattern is not unique to FCAS. The RAND Corporation warned in 2013 that joint service fighter programs historically produce design compromises that drive costs far higher than normal single-service programs. FCAS ran into a version of that dynamic at the company level rather than the service level, but the mechanism was identical: competing institutional interests that rational negotiation alone cannot overcome. Every future EU-level defense co-development program — whether on the combat cloud FCAS's successors will attempt to salvage, ground combat vehicles, or naval systems — faces the same structural challenge.> GCAP's faster progress offers a counter-data point, but its lesson is precise: the UK-Italy-Japan program has moved because its partners agreed in 2022 on a jointly governed industrial framework structured to prevent any single partner from claiming unilateral lead authority. That is exactly the arrangement Dassault refused. Whether Germany joins GCAP, backs Team Gen 6, or buys more F-35s, the procurement decision it makes in the next 24 months will answer one of the most consequential open questions in Western defense planning: whether European strategic autonomy in air power is a doctrine or a diplomatic aspiration.
>>65221095Raptor-chan would almost certainly leave me a broken man, assuming I even survived, but I'd still hit it.
>>65224865Germany should join GCAP as a junior partner. Contribute some funding to relieve the UK, get a little workshare and local production in return to keep ADS, MTU Aero and Hensoldt busy. No redesign of the existing aircraft so no delays.
>>65225084nah, they'll doom future sales just like they did with the tornado and eurofighter
>>65221889So you are saying that the bongs are going to lose everything once they go bankrupt because when the IMF enters the picture government luxury consumption like stealth fighter projects will have to go. This will also be a sneaky way for America to eliminate a potential competitor to their own jet fighter exports. If the japanese are persistent and play their cards right they might end up selling stealth fighters with captured brit IP to every euro airforce because there will be no other high end itar-free non chinese offering on the market. Maybe the koreans but they are still using F414s.
>>65225164That's easily fixed by not giving them a veto.Can't deny exports if you're not exporting anything.
>>65225204Lol just no.Even in a hypothetical scenario where a country needs IMF stabilization, the IMF dictates macroeconomic targets (like deficit-to-GDP ratios or public spending caps). It does not micromanage specific sovereign, treaty-locked multi-national military programs.Also the US is seemingly VERY open to GCAP any fear mongering about the US killing it to give lockheed a contract are just bullshit.The US signed a massive CCA/AI deal with japan specifically to integrate Japanese GCAP CCAs with the F-35/F-22/F-47, etc.So the US is happily helping develop part of the GCAP ecosystem, they're not going to try and kill the program to try and get lockheed or boeing more work that they can't even handle even if they wanted to.Lockheed's order books are full for decades, Boeing has enough on their plate with Civil aviation backlogs and the F-47 program, NG has the B-21, LGM-35 and will likely be doing F/A-XX too. GE is already having problems producing enough F404/414 cores for the rest of the world to use, they sure as shit aren't going to have extra industrial capacity to sell jet engines to all of europe, pratt and whitney is similar bottlenecked by the F135 production.
>>65225084>Germany should join GCAP as a junior partnerwhy?findom?the 50-100billion€ intended spend are more than enough to have their own fighter programand in turn only German companies would profit -> jobs in Germanygiving that money to UK/Japan/Italy would be a massive waste of tax moneyif they can pull off the engine integration (which is genuinely the only weak link)there is absolutely no reason not to go 100% domestic
>>65225361but German law states they should get export control over everything over a certain % of worksharethat's one of the underlying reasons of why FCAS died >German national law isn't binding internationallybut it is against the German government
>>65225383Then they don't join GCAP.It's not really that hard of a situation.Japan is never going to give up significant workshare, and they 100% aren't going to give germany an export veto.If Germany demands that veto, there is no room for Germany in GCAP.End of story.
>>65225378>there is absolutely no reason not to go 100% domesticyes, they are germans and to autistic to get shit done without some outside tard wrangling them
>>65225378>there is absolutely no reason not to go 100% domesticIt is way more expensive. That is the reason.
>>65225378Germany doesn't have a stealth airframe design experience or manufacturing capabilityGermany doesn't have a modern military engine core design from any company and hasn't spent the 50+ years doing the hard materials science R&D required to manufacture the single crystal superalloys needed for modern engines to not melt.Germany also lacks the experience to certify a modern supersonic airframe for airworthiness.Among any number of other things they also lack for 5th/6th gen development.
>>65225400>>65225378If Germany tried to go 100% domestic, that €50–100 billion would be entirely sucked up just building the labs, factories, and test facilities before they even finalized the blueprint for a single jet. They would spend 15 years and €100 billion just to end up with a plane that has the stealth capabilities of a 1980s F-117 and an engine that melts itself on the runway.
>>65219460>They'll order more F-35s.that would literally kill every associated politicians popularitythe only reason the current order exists is keeping nuclear sharingsome anons on /k/ just don't understand just how incredible unpopular the US has gotten in the last decadethe last F-35 purchase in 2022 was already really unpopular, remember this was before Trump no.2no German politician would survive this todaya politician could make a bonfire out of tax euros in front of the Reichstag and get far less of a shitstorm than ordering F-35 again
>>65225409I mean, the alternative to more F-35s is a domestic program (which is a joke to anyone who can read a ledger or do basic technical evaluation of the german industrial capability), or trying to join GCAP as a junior member or preferred customer. The F-35 option is quite attractive when put up against the real world alternatives.
>>65225378>Cheaper>Your allies also become stronger>Much larger orders
>>65225378Germany doesn't even have the capability to make a turboprop trainer.
>>65225398>It is way more expensive. That is the reason.but the money ends up in German jobsand also a strengthened industryin the end it's obviously a calculation that you have to make>>65225400>Germany doesn't have a stealth airframe design experience or manufacturing capabilityRheinmetall does stealth parts for the F-35also there are multiple German stealth dronesbut true, that's a weak point>hard materials science R&D required to manufacture the single crystal superalloys needed for modern engines to not melt.uhhard disagreemultiple Fraunhofer institutes research on this for decades, like the ILT, who literally invented the repair process for mono crystalline turbine bladesalso MTU researches and manufactures those!?>certifyoh no, I'm sure the Germans will have difficulty with bureaucracy...>>65225404Germany's problem is typically go to market, not researchresearch wise I don't think anything is missingand there is a large existing MICso what factories are exactly missing?that's really an overly pessimistic takenot rooted in realty whatsoever
>>65225435>cheaperdepends on how you calculatethat money spend is gonemoney spend on domestic research and domestic production goes to people living and spending their money in Germanyso you get much of it immediately back in taxesnot to mention how the economy growth as a result of the increased spendingand the "subsidies" so your own companies can compete better in the worldit's literally what the US MIC is doing for decades with proven track record
>>65225376>Also the US is seemingly VERY open to GCAP any fear mongering about the US killing it to give lockheed a contract are just bullshit.>https://asiatimes.com/2025/03/us-eyes-euro-japanese-next-gen-fighter-program/That's a blatant lie considering trump sent multiple people to both japan and Italy to try and talk them into allowing the US to have a say in the program and constantly making up smear campaigns via US/ISrael thinktanks about the unfeasibility of the project. The US is trying to destroy every single military project where the US doesn't have a role in it. For all of the muttoids screeching about us needing to pull our own weight, the moment we try to do so mutts have a meltdown, as they only want us as customers.
>>65225469>it's literally what the US MIC is doing for decades with proven track recordNigger USA is the size of whole Europe.
>>65219460I'd rather buy chinese than american.
>>65225452Rheinmetall doesn't design or engineer the F-35. They built a factory in Weeze to produce center fuselage sections under a strict print-to-manufacture license from Lockheed Martin. They are acting as a built-to-order machine shop. They do not own the low-observable (stealth) geometric IP, they don't mix the radar-absorbent coatings, and they have zero authority to modify the design. Knowing how to machine a part designed by Lockheed does not mean you know how to architect an entire stealth airframe.Germany’s primary stealth UAV project was the Airbus LOUT (Low Observable UAV Testbed); which was a static, sub-scale mock-up built in a hangar in 2014 that never even flew. Their other drone projects (like EuroHawk or Heron TP) are completely unstealthy, slow-moving reconnaissance platforms bought or licensed from the US and Israel. Germany has zero operational sovereign stealth UAVs.MTU Aero Engines is a phenomenal company, but they do not manufacture single-crystal hot-section cores for fighter jets.In the Eurofighter's EJ200 engine, Rolls-Royce owns and manufactures the high-pressure turbine and combustor core (the hot section where single-crystal superalloys matter). MTU’s 30% workshare is strictly for the low-pressure and high-pressure compressors, the low-pressure turbine, and the digital engine control (FADEC).Flight certification for a 6th-generation supersonic fighter isn't about filling out paperwork at a local government office; it’s about massive, multi-decade structural engineering data.Germany hasn't designed and certified a sovereign supersonic tactical airframe since the Tornado in the late 1960s/early 70s (and even that was a joint venture via Panavia), Germany lacks the entire institutional pipeline, telemetry infrastructure, and supersonic testbed architecture required by military aviation authorities to type-certify a 6th-gen weapon system. You can't just "bureaucracy" your way past a lack of physical flight-test data.
>>65225483>>65225452Germany has excellent factories for tanks (Leopard 2), artillery, and automotive manufacturing. But they do not have a military assembly plant for high-end stealth aerospace.They don't have military aerospace autoclaves scaled for stealth composite curing, they don't have robotic radar-cross-section (RCS) verification chambers, and they don't have military turbofan core casting foundries. To build a 100% domestic jet, Airbus Germany would have to build billions of Euros worth of new, highly specialized facilities that currently do not exist anywhere within German borders.>>65225471Trump is not the US, he'll probably be dead before GCAP even flies, and almost certainly dead before it enters service.The US military has zero issue with GCAP and has been actively supporting it since it relieves the force sharing burden on US forces in the pacific.
>>65225488>The US military has zero issue with GCAP and has been actively supporting it since it relieves the force sharing burden on US forces in the pacific.The american MIC has serious issues with the GCAP. That is why the americans seek to undermine euro projects. Its about preserving marketshare. American vassals cannot be allowed to become too advanced or too independent as it would be bad for business.
>>65225507>The american MIC has serious issues with the GCAPI don't doubt it, but the US military itself knows the MIC is backlogged out the ass with domestic US demands and international F-35 orders, there simply is no spare industrial capacity to even think about offering an export 6th gen fighter before ~2045.Even the defense primes are starting to back off a bit (the public PR is still in full force though) behind the scenes because they know they can't make a serious export offer right now with their existing backlogs and expect anyone to take their offer seriously.Only time will tell, but a large portion of US defense strategists and planners have zero issue with GCAP.
>>65219332Kraut bros......WE ARE SO BACK>The head of Italian defense firm Leonardo has welcomed the possibility of Germany entering the Italo-Japanese-UK GCAP fighter program but has warned that adding a new member could push back the delivery date.Brits, Italians, and Japs are gonna get FUCKED. They'll get a 6th gen in the 22nd century at this rate
>>65225520Japan will veto it.Germany can't join, even if the UK and Italy beg for it. Japan needs to agree too, and any delay to the timeline will be an instant veto by Japan.
>>65219461>It seriously feel like the commercial succes of the Rafale influated the heads's ego of the company to some sky-high level.Mon ami, what success? The Rafale sells less than F16 or F14 and is noted for being markedly less capable.I will give you French credit tho, you are the only EU nation with any eyes toward the future. But you are dragged down by the EU.
>>65225527>you are the only EU nation with any eyes toward the futureItaly?I understand leaving out the UK, but come on.
>>65219464Indian AMCA is better than this turkshit
>>65225555AMCA is even further behind though...
>>65225520Fuck off, we don't want to enter GCAP. It's ugly.
What happens to other EU cunts? What will Spain do now? I imagine they don’t care all that much about their military and would be perfectly fine with just buying whatever. What of Netherlands? Sweden and Finland? Baltics? Poland? Balkans? Is anyone there interested in any joint European projects?
>>65225530>ItalyPopulation growth worse than Japan, more retirees on payroll than anything else. Small bits of industry with no legacy national core, and worst of all, is full of Italians. Italy has no power to supply their grid and while they can farm I doubt they have any true farming capable of surviving fertilizer cut offs/temperature changes (tho the Med/Alps might help Italy avoid issues with this). Italy isn't the worst offender in the EU, but they certainly aren't a nation with a "future." The main reason I give the French leeway is that 30% of national power comes from nuke and they never stopped their nuke industry from existing. One of the best paths forward for Europe is to let the French reactor builders loose in the EU with German building subsidies. Of course it being the EU, we'll hear a bunch of commie planted "green" parties that scream the only path forward is to depend on LNG ESPECIALLY RUSSIAN LNG.
>>65225564Italy is as of today, the only nation in the EU with an active 6th gen fighter program.
>>65225527>eyes toward the future>with 115% debt to GDP ratio and rising, 5% budget deficit and BBC worship ingrained in their national culture and politicsPoland and Czechia have a brighter future than brown western euro shitholes
>>65225562Spain is unironically looking into getting the fucking Turkish knockoff F-22 lmaooooo
>>65225588Because they know they can't afford GCAP.Hell they probably realistically couldn't have afforded FCAS either, but with Airbus/Indra at the table they kinda had to be involved.The KF-21 or TF-KAAN are looking like the most "appropriate" step for Spain to take unless they want to go back to the F-35 plan.
>>65225588>>65225562I find it funny that Spain's current virtue signalling goverment likes to shit on the US and Israel and cancelled weapons procurement from them because of Palestine....But are compeltely fine with doing deals with Islamist Erdogan and also signing deals with UAE's EDGE Group. You know, the country who supports the RSF genocidal militia in Sudan that killed more people than Israel did in Gaza.
>>65220019Keep coping Fritz, i know some BAE lads and most of the design work was done by the british.You are just the accountant. I dislike the french but realize that you will never ever have a locally made fighter. Sheer German presumption as always.
>>65225639It’s because Spain is basically an Islamic country. They have been ever since the Crusades convinced people to pretend that was over and done with.
>>65225562Spain cooperates with TAI, they will get the Kaan. Also, they are getting the Hurjet
>>65225716And as far as i know, turkey also offered Anka3 to Spain as well
>>65225520>New Leonardo CEOIt's kinda funny how much Meloni is a slave to the US. Cingolani was the best CEO we had at Leonardo who sold a shitload of stuff and pushed for europe first instead of US first, and immediately Meloni sacked him under pressure from the US. Right wing retards will call that a win
>>65225716>they are getting the HurjetYou have no idea how pissed off our airforce is at that development. pure corruption at airbus
>>65225749Why, this is a brand new design, not a rework of a 1970s Russian airframe. And it incorporates the most advanced production techniques and technologies available.The aircraft will also have the Murad100‑A AESA radar, which slightly outperforms the APG‑83SABR used on F‑16Block70s. I'm also sure that TAI will offer the source code so Spain will be able to integrate its own pods and weapons. Moreover, Spain will integrate Airbus subsystems, meaning the Turkish and Spanish Hurjet variants will differ slightly.
>>65225744That's not at all what happened lmao.Cingloani was getting lambasted for trying to transition leonardo from a weapons manufacturer into an AI first company.While AI certainly WILL play a role in modern arms, it was just not the right angle for Leonardo and thus he was replaced with the guy who was the former managing director of MBDA Italia. During his tenure at MBDA, his primary directive from leadership was to oversee a massive production ramp-up.Basically they replaced someone who was pushing AI for someone who knows missiles.
>>65225806Because it's turkshit of the lowest quality like everything else they make that was procured bypassing both a mandatory by law public tender and the already established wishes of the air force. Roaches can promise whatever they want, but they never once delivered.
>>65225820>mandatory by law public tenderIf they had made a public tender public officials wouldn't have been able to pocket any money.
>>65225806Looks like a FA-50 knockoff.
>>65225834It kinda is. roaches saw the success the FA-50 had in Asia and decided to make a copy to sell to arab nations.
>>65225843>decided to make a copyHopefully it's better than the other stuff they copy lmao
>>65225820lel, the same company had built 300+ F-16s under license and they were going to produce fuselage of F-35s. They provide critical parts to every new Boeing and Airbus passenger plane out there, so whenever you fly, you need to remember that plane has Turkish made parts on it.
>>65225654not sure why you're so antagonistic, I didn't claim Germany did most of the design work on the Eurofighter. Maybe it's because your country can't do a proper rifle on its own. Anyway I said we will see, the German aerospace industry is lobbying for a national project and while I am doubtful about that, if Turkey and South Korea can cook something, I think Germany can too if the political will is there (which is doubtful). I personally think junior membership in GCAP would probably be the most practical solution all things considered.
>>65225852>They provide critical parts to every new Boeing and Airbus passenger plane out there, so whenever you fly, you need to remember that plane has Turkish made parts on it.You have no fucking idea how much that statements scares me. But now the recent increase in air travel accidents makes much more sense. Jeet code + Roach parts is a match made in hell.
>>65225852>so whenever you fly, you need to remember that plane has Turkish made parts on it.I-Is that a f-f-fucking threat?!
>>65225866No need to worry, these guys built one of the largest aircraft test facilities out there and they built things at latest NATO standards.
>>65225572>Italy has an active 6th gen fighter programWow! So tell me who's engines they are using, how they've managed to surpass the US/China for material science and the expected delivery date of this mythical plane.Once you do that tell me how Italy is hoping to do this program when they quite literally have not produced even a 4.5th gen fighter and have no domestic jet fighter program that exists currently. Tell me how Italian industry will grow to make this program when they have 0 energy independence nor growth of energy production
>>65225585Poland and Czechia have 0 native nuke industries nor the ability to meet their energy needs into the future.
>>65225888I eventually like their helicopter projects even better. Here picture of Turkish designed & built utility helicopter flying with a Turkish made turboshaft. You never see such detailed testing stuff from chinks, russians or indians.
>>65225892You seem really upset that Italy is the only nation in Europe with an actual future-looking airforce.Rafale F5 doesn't impress anyone and france plans to fly it into the 2050s and beyond at this rate.
>>65225888I wouldn't trust a roach with changing a lightbulb. Arabs can't into technology
>>65225857i'll take my L85 over the HK416 any day. At least it has a bit of soul left it in
>>65225905Anything made by the chinks is a thousand times netter than the rest of you thirdies. You're on the same level of jeets
>>65225585poland would have 100% debt to gdp if it wasn't for euro gibs
>>65225716The kaan't is a rc plane cope hull 3rd gen with cheap BAe electronics
>>65226028Nah, it's just gonna be an entry level 5th gen. Probably better than the Su-57, though that shouldn't be too hard.
>>65226040>5th gen.lmao no
Atilla the Hun was NOT Turkish
>>65226075In what way?The most recent prototype KAANs already have better airframe geometry and seam gaps than the production Su-57s. It has an internal weapons bay, S-duct intakes, a decent AESA radar, IRST/EOTS, supercruise, and modern datalinks.And they are designing multi-layer carbon and composite materials where the radar-absorbing properties are impregnated directly into the aircraft's outer skin. It's obviously yet to be seen how well that performs ultimately, but it's already shaping up to be an entry level 5th gen fighter even if it doesn't compete directly against the F-35/F-22. Not every 4th gen fighter was equal
>>65226101Airframe geometry means jack shit when panel lines and everything else looks like it came from a school project. Paired with no true s ducts, no real 5th gen radar comparable to an F-35, no RAM coatings, etc. It's just a cope just like the SU-57.
>>65226109Oh so you're retarded AND delusional.Sorry, please go on.I literally just said the MOST RECENT PROTOTYPE KAANsand then you bring up the P0 first prototype from 2024, not the 2026 ones that are brand fucking new.Kill yourself, seriously. Why even post here if this is the level of effort you're going to put in?
>>65226113Nope, I am talking about the latest. Sorry roach
>>65226140Then you're just blind, they look FAR better than the Su-57 it's not even funny.Sorry ivan, you've been exposed as a true 3rd world nation by fucking TURKEY of all places.
>>65226146That's a pajeet. Pakistan is going to acquire Kaan after 2030. Indians only have mock up of AMCA yet. Kaan makes them seethe hard.
>>65225871In our defens all the majority of the carsh had jeet poilts and no actual people died just indians
>>65225084They didn't accept to be junior partner on one single of the five pillars of FCAS, what makes you believe Airbus Defense & Space and assorted kraut industrial interests will agree to be junior partners with a much smaller share of the overall program, on the whole GCAP ?
>>65226626Cause they'd only be asked to pay maybe €5-15B for GCAP depending exactly what sort of deal they want. Compared to €30-50B+ for FCAS.
>>65225716I didn’t realise the Kaan was flanker big
>>65219436Europe has higher population you dumb twat
>>65226785Flanker should still be a bit bigger.
