Post gear, discuss gearHighcom 4S20M Edition.Old: >>65592479>Meanwhile at Highcum Headquarters:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7HKejQXljo
/gq/ Infographic Emporium:https://imgur.com/a/gq-infographic-emporium-1-00-1lZ5xw6Legacy Infographic Reserve: https://imgur.com/a/k-infographic-reserve-AIKzwWF>Last time on /gq/... the thread lasted fifteen years. Highcom dropped four new plates (3I12M, 3S22M, 4S20M, 4S21). Philly Trash Sniper tried to imitation crab the autism, and nobody bought a REAL FUCKIN' HALLIGAN.>QUICK ARMOR GUIDE 2.178CODE: * = active NIJ-cert, ^ = NEEDS SOFT ARMOR, DND = do not drop, ** = military.>Special Rifle Threat:/pfg/: Protech X-CAL LP^DND (Last ditch option!)Budget: Hesco L211Mid-Range: Hesco M210High-End: Hesco U210 / U211, LSAPI**, or Tencate CR-6450SA.>CONUS Minimum (M80, M855, M193):Budget: Hesco 3611C, SAPI**^, or Gilliam 6001Mid-Range: Hesco 3612* or 3810*High-End: Hesco 3811* or 3811LV^DNDElite: Used Cercom CER-EMH**^>CONUS Medium (M80 + M855A1 or BZ API):Budget: Protech 2120-5Mid-Range: Hesco 3411* or LTC 19513High-End: LTC 28780**Elite: VelSys PBZSA**DND or Hesco SC3812 or Protech DT306C-HWElite-Plus: Used Ceradyne MH3 CQB**^DND (10x M995)>CONUS Optimal (M855A1 + M80A1):Budget: Highcom 3S9 (SAPI-cut)Mid-Range: Used LTC 28550** / 28590** or Highcom 3S9M* (SAPI-cut!)High-End: Used LTC 28595**Elite: Used LTC 28570** or VelSys TSA**Elite-Plus: Tyr XHA4/S6/T(DND) or GEN 6 LTC TSA**>Level IV / CONUS High (.30-06 M2AP):/pfg/: Used Protech 2014G (last ditch option)Budget: Gilliam 1023, Protech 2014MC, or Hesco 4403*Mid-Range: Hesco 4601* or ESAPI**^ (REV. G-J)High-End: Hesco 4800(DND), 4800LV^DND, or Protech 9812-R1(DND)Elite: Tencate CXP-800 SA or Ceradyne SOF ESAPI MK.II**^DND or Adept EmperorElite-Plus: Ceradyne SAEC**DND(??)>Level IV+ / CONUS Extreme (Various)Budget: Protech 2230 / Hesco-Protech 2230-1 (M2AP at +600ft/s) or Gilliam 8002 (.300 Winmag Swiss P AP)Mid-Range: Adept Colossus (7.62x51 Swiss P AP) or REV. C XSAPI**^ (M993)High-End: Rev. D XSAPI**^ (7N37?)Elite: ECSAPI** (M993)Elite-Plus: Ceradyne 96034** (7.62x51 Swiss P)
Yay, another thread of this retard talking to himself. >>65620839Sling, belt, holster, chest rig, ammo.
>>65620877NO ARMOR and I will pin this thread again. OG 'Nam issued.
>>65620916hooray!>>65620923Sometimes life is like a sandwich... it all just meshes together...
Introducing a2rip's least favorite infographic in hopes that he comes back from the dead.
>>65620350Follow up on these DT106E plates. They have 22 sets, which is a shitload. However, per Safariland's spec sheet, they're only rated for 7.62x39mm MSC at up to 2,330ft/s and not NIJ RF1 mandated 2,400ft/s. Ergo, M855 v50 is probably lower versus a modern RF1 PE plate. Nerfanon's RF1 backed by poverty IIIA concept is gonna be sketchier with these if anyone is brave enough to try that.
>>65620977Shut the fuck up. Nobody cares.
>>65620982Hi Apex
>>65620923>>65620982>>65620977Let the armor discussion continue. I need motivation to go to the casino. It requires a drive since I was barred from the last one.
>>65620992For the record it makes buying a pair of LTC 23620s for $1,249 off Apex look stupid. You can buy five sets of DT106Es for one pair of those and the weight is almost identical.
>>65620992>and still have $200+ left over for baccarat, or a sixth set of DT106Es!
>>65620999>>65621001I am tempted and now it makes me want two carriers. Weight und cost makes the helions hard to pass up and harder to justify getting DT106E’s but I want. I probably should look at getting something more robust as a next set, but I really enjoy these pe’s a bit too much. I’m really thinking I’ll go the crye slick. Bougie? Maybe.
>>65621010The DT106Es would make for good loaners. They're drop proof, being PE, and a fraction of steel's weight. M855 is a problem, but, well, the no free lunch rule strikes again.>I probably should look at getting something more robust as a next setLevel IVs of some persuasion, probably. Gilliam still has those RF3 1635s in stock. 6.35lb for a 10x12, $400/set.Or wait and see if those Protech 2230-1s turn up surplus. Improved 2230s that are 0.7lb lighter a pop.For headroom, the 1635 has been tested to defeat M2AP about 50ft/s above spec, which isn't great but a little better than a Hesco 4403.
>>65621015While 855 protection would be a nice have, I’m more concerned with stopping your bonded/otm/hp defensive ammo as that seems to be more likely to face at least in conus. There could be some bias there and I don’t exactly plan to find out what m855 penetration feels like. This also is a reminder that I need to pick out some glass for a 24” m855 slinger I’ve had in the works. >IV’sIll bide my time for now. Enjoying how light the rf1’s and ideally want some time behind those before upgrading. They’ll go very nicely for the trash ghillie
>>65621034Sooner or later RF2-rated PE plates will be mainstream and not damn expensive. Unfortunately the Chinese export ban from last bread is putting a damper on that.>While 855 protection would be a nice haveBack with IIIA and hope the barrels are short.>more likely to face at least in conus.Bit of an urban / rural divide. ARPs will not be slinging M855 at full tilt so you at least have that.>Ill bide my time for now. Enjoying how light the rf1’s and ideally want some time behind those before upgrading. They’ll go very nicely for the trash ghillieMore you wait, the better your options become. We still haven't seen Integris' (formerly Tencate, formerly Chuck's) new 0101.07 lineup yet.What I'm seeing is the manufacturers are playing a mexican standoff. Whoever releases first is at a disadvantage. Adept blew their load early with the Emperor and now the distinctly RF3 multi-hit and lighter 4S21M is gonna probably make the single-hit RF3 Emps look stupid. We have not seen Integris. We have not seen Hesco other than the rebadged RF3-400 / 4403.
>>65621042Perhaps we can route through Mongolia. Take advantage of their Korean trade agreement.>back IIIAGood idea. Wouldn’t have thought to turn standard plate into de facto icw. Thickness might be an issue for some carriers. At most I can think of that would probably accommodate that easiest is mepc. Could have changed it could be more. Not sure. Short barrels are closer to a guarantee at this rate. Also a guarantee of some boomer sitting on 15,000 rounds m855 exists out there somewhere. Bro prolly picked up one of those goodie barrels from way back, but a little hazy if that deal was purely m193 or m855.>waitI look forward to the PE future. Will follow those developments enthusiastically assuming a set doesn’t exceed the cost of a usb start Kia soul.
>>65621060The idea actually stems from an anon months ago who worked some contractor job and found all-PE Protech 2113MC-3s backed with IIIA actually kinda did okay against M855, and Buffman's testing of the Longfri LON-III-P where it did show a decent ballistic limit.M855 is not AP and it's not a silver bullet versus PE. It needs velocity to get the job done, more than more advanced rounds like A1 or M995 do. DocGKR has said before tungsten M995 goes through all-PE plates like air. Absolute no contest.Also the practice of backing standalone with IIIA reduces BFD and increases v50 ballistic limit too, in general.Speaking of, Adept has now formally released their IIIA / HG2 Bulletfoam trauma pad. It's meant to provide substantial BFD reduction and can be used as a IIIA backer all the same.https://lauraburgess.com/adept-armor-launches-bulletfoam-torso-pad-first-armor-made-from-its-new-ballistic-foam/Furthermore, Mehler Vario has now purchased MARS Armor of Bulgaria. MARS came up recently because they now have a very impressive VPAM PM-12 plate. Also important because they're a major player in the Euro market, competing with Tencate. Mehler is doing this as part of an "international growth" strategy, so it's only a matter of time before they enter the CONUS arena.https://bodyarmornews.com/mehler-systems-acquires-majority-stake-in-mars-armor-to-strengthen-its-presence-in-eastern-europe/Mehler is like BAE Systems. They make advanced stuff but they work in the shadows and sell nothing to regular joes.If you want your PE fix, Mehler may eventually be willing to deal. Will have to see. They do make 7.62x39 rated visors, which are welcome.
>>65621076It’s worth a shot. I’ll have to check up on thickness requirements especially for adept. Barring that, Gilliam’s inserts. I’d honestly like to get my hands on some m995, but I think this is mostly wishful hopes and dreams. >MehlerWe can only hope. I am skeptical but we will see. Good things come from Bulgaria. VPAM when
Any recommendations on split front rig? I have my eye on a mav, but looking for alternatives as well. Guess flc applies, sort of.
>>65621328The Bulletfoam can compress, so it's not a straight 0.5" thick in practice. IMO, you're still gonna need platebags with a lot of depth, especially if you're rolling PEs.Not gonna lie, I'm not a fan of backpack plates that are only IIIA or "IIIA+" limited rifle. If you're in an active shooter sitch then it'll be 5.56 wholesale and the jury is out on whether it'll be M193 or M855, so IIIA stuff like the Bulletfoam is gonna get mopped anyway. I keep an ESAPI in my work bag.>VPAM whenPepperidge Farm remembers when the Colossus was advertised PM-12...
>>65620977Think these would be good candidates for stacking my AR500 steel IIIAs on top for ghetto RF2? Better than pasta plates even?
>>65621810Definitely better than pasta. This is modern 7.62x39mm MSC-rated, 0101.06 certified PE. The pasta is 0101.03 and not MSC rated.
Figured I'd drop in so you queers stay in your containment. Gilliam doesn't list weights on their page. Anyone want to enLIGHTen me?
>>65621836The weights are in the table on each page, where it says technical specifications.
This thread is a top result if you google highcom 4s20m. Fucking lol.
>>65621815My only question at this point is thickness. Wonder if I can cram that ghetto solution into a Botach Discreet...
>>65621785I think I’ll be okay with the plate bag at least with crye but this is precisely why the slickster/others are iffy. >backpackBro needs a double laptop sleeve for surprise m855>>65621836As an unpaid, uncontracted Gilliam rep, the website has two different sections. A table as referenced in >>65621839 and then the actual product page. Hope this helps.
>>656219261.2" plus 5mm steel is 1.4" total, so that's thick but not ungodly.>>65621933Worth noting the old RMA 1155 was 1" thick, so people getting by with those in the slickster had a thinner solution than this 1.2" Protech.
OD helmet. Thread decides carrier color. Philly Trash Sniper cannot choose. Grey might blend in with trash.
>>65621933gilliam got empty shelves like 2 models on the block sold out how can u do biz like that
>>65622069green and tan so you blend in with every single fed using the same ass Tyr carrier. Gray is gonna be funky if you ever go outside the city. would do OD just to match helm.
>>65622071his 10 year chinese PE supplier went to Chinese gulag bro he can't make Helions no more.It's 1635s for days until he gets the new version and the 8002 Light / 8002 Heavy out.
>>65622038Technically VISM (which makes the Botach) says their Discreet technically only holds 1" thick plates, with my measurements giving a more generous 1.3-1.5" max, and the pastas are like 0.7" thick on their own. Given that the IIIAs I have are build-up anti-frag coat, that means you need to add maybe an extra 1-3mm of thickness to that depending on whether the AR500 Armored Republic armor gremlins were drunk at work that day or not.tl;dr: A Protech III/AR500 IIIA plate combo might fit, but it'd be very tight on my budget basement $20 PC. Even my current pasta/AR500 setup is sorta pushing it.
>>65622158Remember if it's two pieces you can use the plate to wedge the other item and apply leverage. That's how I can fit IIIA armor express backers behind my 2230s in a modified TT vest, which puts me over 1.4". The 7.5lb, M2AP at 3,510ft/s IV+ and the Level III PE 2.8lb DT106E are interestingly the same thickness. Protech must consider 1.2" to be a hard cutoff.Either way I expect you'll have to man-ass the Protech DT106E + AR500 combo in.
>>65622197On that note I wonder what sort of protection a layer of IMPAC-HT/ST or K-30s on top of a pasta would give, since those are steel but without thicker coatings. RF1, maybe RF2 lite/M855 at ARP velocity?
>>65622071We hustlin>>65622076It’s an OD helmet with black arc rails because they were on sale cheaper than other rails. It needs painted or a cover. I still have that plastic spray suggestion from months ago. For what it is worth, I intend to use a split rig of some kind. Maybe one of my many flc’s which will then be green/digi with non-matching pouches. Every camo in the rainbow.
>>65622226Compare areal density of those to the AR500 IIIA steel. It's 4.125lb or so for a 10x12" K-30 versus 4lb for AR500's IIIA, and the K-30 is more of a "IIIB." Has a bunch of additional threats above IIIA spec.Either way we're at ~6.8lb, strong IV+ Protech 2230-1 weight, for a quasi-RF2.
>>65622432Given that the pasta plate is like 3.3 lbs on its own, it's gonna be heavier. Also, I was thinking if I got a pair of the trauma pad-sized speed plate K-30s and slapped them on top in an overlapping fashion, which would add some weight, maybe up to 25%. So we're looking at 8 lbs probably. Also, the AR500 IIIA is already effectively a IIIB, given its effective immunity to .30 Carbine and limited resistance to 7.62x39 lead FMJ out of Dracos.I was just wondering if I could get some cheap K-30s from the Brotach grab bag and throw it on top of a pasta plate as an RF1 equivalent loaner for relatives. If it stops RF2 threats even at lower velocities that'd be a bonus.
Buy stockpiles now. Conserves, food, candles, solar cell to charge USB devices, radio, blankets, batteries, tools, axes for firewood, USB-chargable water heater (connect to solar cell, doesn't cost more than 50 dollars), etc. Water bags out of plastic. toilet paper.
>>65622758Literally why now? Shouldn’t it be routine?
On another note, what if you stack pasta PE IIIs? Like straight up manage to cram two of them into a carrier pocket, stacked on top of each other. Yes, I know it'll be stupidly thick and heavy, but I'm talking an extreme emergency. True RF1 maybe?
>>65622562Pasta + 2x of the 5x8s comes out to 6.06lb. Hesco 4600 weight. Speaking of, we never got the results from that guy who bought a pair of the recalled $90 Botach 4600s, actually. I was anticipating M855A1 + M80A1 actual protection, but it seems like Brotach C&D his azz.>Also, the AR500 IIIA is already effectively a IIIB, given its effective immunity to .30 Carbine and limited resistance to 7.62x39 lead FMJ out of Dracos.Test data is test data, but I would exercise caution as a rule with AR500 brand AR500. This is the company that made claims such as III+ steel stopping "black tip" 7.62x51mm. If they don't advertise it, don't bank on it. If they advertise it, still don't bank on it. Rely on that PE.>I was just wondering if I could get some cheap K-30s from the Brotach grab bag and throw it on top of a pasta plate as an RF1 equivalent loaner for relatives.Odds are good that'll work.>>65623203MSC isn't gonna pierce double-thick Level III PE.
Botach Surplus has a police trade... Golden Dragon Katana.https://surplus.botach.com/police-trade-golden-dragon-katana/>PROCEDURES BROKEN>TOC GOES UNSPOKEN>ENTRY TEAM EVEN FORGOT THEIR DONUTSAlso twelve SET 24" breaching sledgehammers, $120 a pop.https://surplus.botach.com/s-e-t-special-entry-tools-24-breaching-sledgehammer-police-trade/
>>65623857I’m more tempted in gucci’ing out a .40sw glock. They’ve taken horrible care of their bolt cutters.
>>65623875The 24" "law enforcement" ones aren't terrible but need new rubber on the handles. Rest are pretty beat.
>>65623903At first, I thought you were talking Glock 24 which is a fantastic weapon. But yes, some tlc required. Probably go through another bike tire. In my mind, I’d prolly wrap the grips after rust treatment and a tea boil. Then cover wrap in shrunken tire.
>>65623936Curious if "padlock inflation" is a thing given the issue of bike thefts and resulting higher security locks. Will need longer, higher leverage boltcutters just to do basic stuff.Prices honestly aren't awful if you're able to DIY. Need to get some of those hydraulic cutters the bike thieves use.
>>65623690Good to know. Wonder if stacked pasta plates will even do M855 at lower velocities. Damn thing will be heavy enough at like 6.6 lbs.
>>65624101Worth noting in the late 00s DefenseTech had an all-PE M855 rated plate called the DT855. 5.2lb HB25. A 6.6lb solution should be fine even if the exact grade of PE used is inferior.
>plate carrier is 25 lbs slickI'm taking the side plates out
>>65624117hesco 4403 / 4100 gang?
>>65624112I've got a few sets of pasta, doubled plates should work for one setup and the other will likely be AR500 IIIA on top of another pasta set. They will be heavy/thick but mostly functional RF1/RF2 lite loaners for relatives, which is all you can really ask for at the price point of "shit I bought years ago for basically nothing and has been sitting sealed in airtight plastic in my garage ever since".
>>656241364s17m / 4s17
>>65623857Wonder what fedora-clad blade studier they confiscated that from. Hilarious that the department traded it to Botach for something, and even funnier that Botach accepted it.
>>65624163Did you at least get a good price? Should have been a pair of 4403s, or if you're cool with Chinese, Gilliam 1635s which would have saved you POUNDS for LESS.4S17M is basically just the 4SAS7 from 2009 mildly beefed up and with drop protection. Apex Armor even implies that directly. Very antiquated plate. Also the 10x12 is undersized, unlike Hesco or Gilliam, so I hope you got SAPI cut.Pair of 1635s with 6x8 sides would be 19lb. >>65624138And that's a good plan. Something is better than nothing for the crew.>>65624198Botach had surplus hand sanitizer for sale. They'll take anything.
>>65624231I've never seen them resell confiscated stuff though. It's always something that an LE agency could technically reuse for official purposes in some way. Oddest shit ever. That said, I've also got a single plate of that oversized Italian pink ceramic III+ stuff. Seems to pass torque too. I don't think there's a carrier available today that fits it since its like 18" tall or some shit.
>>65624255>I've never seen them resell confiscated stuff though. It's always something that an LE agency could technically reuse for official purposes in some way. Well a Katana technically does exceed NIJ Level IIIA protection and a sword does convey more authority in some cultures than a gun...Not saying it's a good idea but there genuinely could have been a deputy someplace somewhere who EDC'd a wallhanger.>That said, I've also got a single plate of that oversized Italian pink ceramic III+ stuff.Ah, that's the chromium-doped alumina stuff. Better multi hit, lower hardness so it's not ideal for serious steel core threats. Russians used to use that in older ceramic plates at lower threat levels. Mostly fell out of practice versus 99.7% and ZTA grades. Russians now use white Alumina in the heavy BR5+ 7N37 stoppers. Possibly ZTA.Food for thought, Buffman said he was able to pen an Alumina Level IV with Swiss P AP at 2,400ft/s, so those older Alumina plates claiming Swiss P AP defeat must have been at piss poor velocity. CPC TC4C, IAC IA0037, etc, unless the Alumina was doped. IIRC people said they were ZTA (zirconia-toughened).>I don't think there's a carrier available today that fits it since its like 18" tall or some shit.Gonna have to be a custom.
>>65624231>Did you at least get a good price?I don't know what you consider a "good" price for them, but I'm going to assume no.
>>65624326$350 or less for the pair. Unless you need DEA standard compliance on top of NIJ, the 4S17M needs to be significantly cheaper than the Hesco 4403 to be a good deal. The 4S17M is 8.6lb SAPI M versus the 4403's 7.9lb and there is otherwise no reasonable increase in protection to justify that. An 8.6lb Level IV should be a tungsten stopping tank, akin to the Gilliam 8002.If you/anon got the 4S17Ms off reddit's advice, I understand, their armor posters are suspiciously rizzing up Apex's products (Highcom / LTC / Tencate) to the point I think they're on some kinda payroll. Also they do not ever rec a Hesco product, which is a clear tell something is off because you should be brand agnostic unless there are numerous reasons to shitlist a company, a la RMA or American Blast Systems. Hesco failing some FITs over half a decade ago, but making good on recalls / replacements / recertifications is not reason to shitlist current products.
>>65624297Probably why it survived conscripts and shipping to me, it's tougher but softer. Still, from the online tests I've seen it stops M855 and the wide variety of mild steel cored stuff out there, so I can't complain since I got it from SG for a song, along with all the pasta PEs. Prices so low it was almost free before shipping. I miss those days. We didn't know how well we had it until it was almost over and we were scrambling to get one last order in.
>>65624363Indeed. I think the Russian doped alumina plates capped out at 7N10 / 7.62x54R LPS. BZ API and up (and ergo M855A1) you'll want normal Alumina. I've never seen a high-level pink alumina plate (BR5 / NIJ IV). Jake Ganor has a good article on the stuff here: https://bodyarmornews.com/coloration-in-aluminum-oxide-ceramics-and-does-the-color-of-alumina-ceramics-affect-their-ballistic-performance/
>>65624381Frankly the great Sportsman's Guide pasta clearance was the closest to an armor free lunch we'll ever see in our lifetimes. $50 0101.03 IIIs and $70 0101.03 ceramic III+s with low shipping costs and vast quantities. Even if the plates were old spec and some were completely roached you still made out like a bandit since everyone with a brain bought that shit in bulk and 0101.03 III is still far better than the cheap Chinese IIIA that dominates that price range. We were like gods swathed in old dirty full-body PE that still stopped M80 ball like a chad. Those days will never come again.That said I think the AP98 vest rig the Italians used had a layer of soft armor UNDER the pasta PE IIIs. Since shoring up weak plates against overspec threats with soft armor is a thing, I can see that specific setup being effectively RF1 since not stopping 7.62x39 MSC is an odd oversight for a military plate in an area traditionally swathed with that kind of mild steel threat.
>>65613718Update, I got one of these. First thing I saw was the warning to not hit with a hammer or to extend with a pipe (cheater bar). This shit actually jiggles a little. Otherwise is... okay.Probably passable if you're a bounty hunter hunting down crackheads in balsa wood light residential housing, but that begs the question of why you can't just kick the door in if you're able to breach.Actual forced entry traditionally uses a combination of tools and not being able to marry this shit with a basic fuckin' hammer is a red flag.
>>65624427Agreed, but I'd say the copsurp Protech 2230s were a better almost free lunch. $1,260 a set (as of 2019) MSRP plates on sale to regular people for $400 a set or less. Lighter than a 4403, double the 7.62x51mm M80 multi-hit, built in trauma pad, ridiculous 600ft/s+ headroom advantage on M2AP versus the 4403 failing to M2AP 30-50ft/s over spec. But of course, the lunch is never free. Just as the Italians could have been roached, the 2230s...1. were all expired across the board. Doesn't matter if the plates were treated well since there's no recorded adhesive issue and the backer is aramid, so it's more resilient to age and heat than polyethylene.2. Could be damaged, but have extensive drop foam so that shouldn't be a huge issue.3. The 2230 has a doppelganger predecessor called the 2220-1 which looks identical except on close inspection (label / absence of front foam on the 2220-1). At least one guy got a 2220-1 instead of a 2230.>the price to the right is Ohio's 2019 negotiated state-level 45% discount with Safariland. Yes, they were getting boron carbide 9812-R1s, which sidegrade the Hesco 4800, for $547 a plate. 2230s for $346 a plate.
>>65621718FLCFrom Venture Surplus.
>>65621718Tasmanian Tiger TT Vest. Like an FLC but accepts plaaaaaaates.
HIGHCOM DOWN BAD.
>>65624456Very true on the extreme discount/value, although the SG pasta clearance was a true /pfg/ festival. That said, what do you think about the AP98's soft armor base layer making the plate combo effectively RF1? Makes sense?
>>65624481Yeah, it's a different "bracket" of quasi-free lunch. The italians are better than D-grade destitute chinesium. The Protechs mog the Hesco 4403 / Highcom 4S17M. A high-end extreme example would be some of the old guard guys getting Ceradyne 96034s for $300-500 a set because people didn't know what they were, or people getting SOF ESAPIs in trades for regular REV. A ESAPIs. Major IYKYK type thing for both.Now most people know golden age Ceradyne (2000-2013) was the tip top of armor.>That said, what do you think about the AP98's soft armor base layer making the plate combo effectively RF1? Makes sense?Worth looking into, for sure. Depends on strength / condition of soft armor because you're asking the plate to do something (7.62x39 MSC @ 2,400ft/s) it was never designed to handle, and what newer gen PE plates like the Protech DT106E explicitly cannot handle. Also, for what it's worth, even the new, top of the line Hesco 3801 is only good for that threat up to 2,390ft/s. Yes, that matters.
>>65620943Is there a version of this where the book titles are legible?
>>65624362>$350 or less for the pair.then no, I didn't get a good deal.>the 4S17M needs to be significantly cheaper than the Hesco 4403 to be a good deal.I wholeheartedly agree. I'm probably going to end up replacing them.>If you/anon got the 4S17Ms off reddit's advice, I understand,sorta. reddit recommended me apex and I found the cheapest level IV (with full certs, I was smart enough for that at least) and went with it.
>>65624381Here's the paragraph:> For us and IMO - Tiles from one batch of 99.7% alumina come from the same powder lot and share one quality report, but they don't all fire under identical conditions. In a large kiln, tiles near the burners, walls or the top of the load see slightly higher temperatures and a different gas atmosphere than tiles in the middle. Those small differences change how completely the organic binder burns out and how the trace elements, such as the magnesium oxide added to control grain growth and the few hundredths of a percent of iron and titanium, settle in the finished ceramic. The result is a visible range from ivory-white to cream across tiles that are chemically the same. The batch's quality report averages a sample of tiles, so its purity, density and hardness figures cover the whole batch, and a moderate shade difference within one batch is cosmetic. It isn't, by itself, a sign of lower performance.
>>65624493I mean, 7.62x39 MSC is common enough in Europe that I can't see even the Italians not considering it as a threat when writing up their RFP for the AP98 armor system. Given that we've seen pasta IIIs backed by soft IIIA stop even M855 out of 16" barrels, if we consider the pasta PEs as de facto ICW proto-RF1s things start to make a lot more sense.
>>65624530Yeah but the kicker is that older gen PE physically wasn't up for the job versus 7.62x39 MSC at normal areal density. They had SS109 too, which would mop the floor with any PE plate unable to handle MSC. Just means they favored reduced areal density versus comprehensive protection. Worth noting if the hard armor was 0101.03, the soft armor was too, and 0101.03 is a far more lenient standard. Back an old plate with newer, better soft armor and it'll do better.Another factor is that there are always multiple tiers of plates. They had the pink ceramic III+'s and apparently some flavor of IV too. Just like how modern US Military is VTP ULWSAPI, LSAPI, ESAPI, then XSAPI. Side bar, the new GEN-IV XSAPI is probably gonna be the "ultimate" overt CONUS plate. Really nice specs if you can do 58mm max BFD.>>65624510>reddit recommended me apexLet me guess, usernames Pearlbutter or Protorin? Best budget "replacement" is the Gilliam 1635 if you're cool with presently uncertified armor. If not, 4403s. If you can raise budget substantially then Hesco 4601s. If you can't, Militech RF3 Black Label is worth a hard look.>>65624523Very interesting info!
>>65624553Related comment here before I eat a ton of candy - we have seen that 100% PE plates are more vulnerable to MSC on oblique. The MSC core is slow to deform and PE is weaker when loaded sideways (MSC does a lot of cutting)... so have to make sure you get a test report with a 30 degree angle or so on that threat.
>>65624553That said we've seen even lower pasta armor, apparently the Italian AP95 armor was hard pressed aramid IIA or equivalent. You're right, they went for comprehensive coverage over strength since the cuirass-looking things were full torso coverage like a Conquistator. Apparently a few showed up during the giant pasta clearance but were mostly sold by smaller surp outfits.
>>65624572Funny enough, I was just combing through RMA's latest plates, the "GEN2" 1062 RF1 and the GEN2 1003 SRT, which just released right on schedule. The new all-PE 1003 does not have any 30 degree 7.62x39 MSC shots, and neither does the old version. Basically, only difference between the two is that the new version is a 9.5x11.5 "not-10x12" like their RF3s. Areal density is the same. Also the new version walked back the 7.62x51mm M80 rating despite no change in areal density, which is odd...7.62x39mm MSC at 30 degrees only appears for the much heavier (3.1lb) RMA 1062 per pic related. Sounds like there might be a risk of penetration with the 1003 SRTs against angled 7.62x39mm MSC. Otherwise, why only test angled 7.62x39mm MSC on the stronger RF1? Side bar, the 1062 GEN2 is 3.1lb SAPI M and $700 a pair. The Hesco 3801 is 1.91lb SAPI M and $1,050 a pair. Save up $350 and you get a 60% weight reduction. But of course, no free lunch! The 3801 is modified III, not RF1, and so it's a hair short on MSC. Also not exactly the right kind of MSC, as per NIJ 0123.00. NIJ very specifically wants Type 56 Chinese from Factory 31. Hesco tested M43.>>656245740101.03 era was basically the last dance for first world mainline armor being pistol rated. Even since the ISAPO and later SAPI dropped, it's been rifle ratings all day every day. Starting to see that reverse a little with the ULWSAPI and USMC Lite SAPI, since those have limited threat profiles and/or standoff required. IMO, flexible rifle armor will eventually get its day in the sun (like digital NV one day will... at some point... eventually) even if it's more par with those non-flexible solutions.
>>65624574Also under no circumstances are "cuirass" plates dead amigo. See pic rel FORT Technologies ACP-M from Russia. 7N37 protection, heavy ass stuff. The 10x13 is 9lb, and this seems to be an 11x14. As you know, full torso plates can get pretty big. 12x15, 15x16, 13.3x16.5, and some of those Italians were like 18" long. At this threat level those cuts are going to be extremely punishing, so the threat level must go down. As you describe, comprehensive coverage versus strength.The only reason why this stuff really hasn't caught on is that oversize plates are:1. Ergonomically a pain in the ass.2. Induce a tremendous weight penalty.Flexible rifle armor can resolve problem #1 at least partially, since it can bend, but that is dependent on the design. I have some FRAS that doesn't bend for shit unless I really force it, but that's Safelife for you. Tencate Ceraflex you can literally bend in half like the plate is a taco, it's ridiculous, but that's Tencate. Best name in the industry. Also they made that stuff so early Blackwater mercenaries were rolling with it in early Iraq.Problem #2, the weight penalty, requires the use of exotic materials and that cranks up the cost. Stealth Armor Systems has RF2 boron carbide DragonSkin 3.0 on tap at 3.1psf areal density, but that's gonna be real expensive. Still enables a very stout (vs soft armor) full torso solution. The deal fell through, but some time ago SAS teased Dragonskin sporting B4C Laminate or Polycrystalline Diamond scales. Those would have been even lighter.
>>65624647Very interesting. Some folks don't understand "why" the angled shots are taken as part of official NIJ ITT (even with ceramic armor).. and it's because anything harder than lead can introduce sideways stresses and ply delams in PE... and the oblique shots are highly important. .30 M2AP is much harder than MSC and the core often gets into the backer in large pieces --- so angled very important. Goodnight. H Halloween.
>>65624671Obviously talking about rifle armor in last post... but soft armor has it's own problems even with 9mm FMJ skipping off the strike face (think shot 7 NIJ 0101.07 at the neckline)
>>65624678Yeah, I've seen industry people complain about that shot #7. There was an NIJ-hosted workshop some months back and people were raising a fit. Frankly, I think NIJ is too easy for soft armor and would prefer if 0101.07 just copycatted the FBI soft armor protocol, but that comes with the caveat of making a lot of PE soft armor uncertifiable because FBI tests for contact shots and NIJ does not. However, that could be justified:>"According to the last batch of data I saw reported from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, approximately 1/3 of the incidents where officers were killed or wounded occurred at contact or near-contact distances. This seems like a fairly high potential for contact shots, yet NIJ inexplicably fails to test for this event. Contact shots can cause extensive damage to polyethelene laminate soft vest materials">https://www.itstactical.com/gearcom/body-armor/soft-body-armor/ >(citing Dr. Gary K Roberts).
>>65624693Since we're on soft and balcs got a question I hope you brothers can answer. My company is getting these shitty vest with no way to insert anything. My company wants us to act like security guards now instead of being plain clothes for 30y+. Ballin on a budget and have no idea how long I can last with idiots at the helm. What's a good balcs or similar. The carrier I can find. Should I cheap out and just get square inserts or is there is a decent cheap balcs out there? I really don't want to look like security or a cop without some sort of protection.
>>65624737Define budget. If you can swing some cash, Highcom, despite the memeing on their plates, does actually make good soft armor. Look to the SA3920 for IIIA. It's triple standard compliant. NIJ certified, DEA, and FBI. Shitloads of sizing options, BALCS included.https://www.highcomarmor.com/product/highcom-trooper-sa3920/If you're middle of the road, SA3100. If you really mean ballin on a budget, 86 the NIJ certs and look to Gilliam, Militech, maybe Stealth Armor Systems. Avoid Safelife. I see Gilliam now has an aramid HG2 panel, FWIW.
>>65624737>My company is getting these shitty vest with no way to insert anything.bro is running pasgt?
>>65624466Ich habe vier Digga so this is to get done go birds >>65624468Ja aber worried of pe plate thickness but I may just do it
i did the impossible... I... I... I... redeemed Hesco on reddit
>>65625123https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRYhAdsKXEQ
>>65625116If the TT can fit 1.2" 2230s then it can fit 1.15" Helions.>>65625128>DO NOT REDEEM HESCO 4403>NO HEADROOM>NO HEADROOM>FAILS TO M2AP 30FT/S ABOVE SPEC>ENEMY TIMMY IN BUSH WITH .300 BRAHMIN MAGNUM AND THERMAL SCOPE>HE WILL REDEEM YOU
>>65625140Two carriers and… AN EXCUSE FOR MORE ARMOR! Happy Halloween
>>65625140>FAILS TO M2AP 30FT/S ABOVE SPECYes, that's what above spec means.
>>65625157Happy halloween indeed. I just picked up a policesurp KDH carrier I'm gonna throw some PE Tencates in and some spare nylon as a secondary go-fast rig. Might grab some of those DT106Es myself as spares, but I am budgeting for those 8002Hs if Gilliam does succeed in commercializing a 7N37 rated plate. It would be the first one on the open market. As a purpose-designed, long core XSAPI killer, 7N37 proxies much better for truly modern ceramic-oriented tungsten AP, unlike 20th century M993 or Swiss P AP. M993 was originally designed back in the 1960s and designed to engage light armored vehicles. Swiss P AP was designed to challenge 1990s Alumina or B4C Level IV plates with fiberglass backers. Not applicable to modern aramid / PE stuff with SiC faces, which is what an XSAPI is.His specs (for now) are still 7.75lb / 1.25" SAPI M, multi or single curve. Lighter than a SAPI M Hesco 4403 and 0.25lb heavier than a 10x12 Protech 2230.
>>65625166The whole argument against Hesco is that they only build their plates to barely meet requirements, which isn't a problem if the threat environment is "known" and static. In exchange, they're usually the lightest in each class. This means they're fine generalists but make for poor contingency plates.
>>65625199Hefty for a plate but hopefully pulls through. Have my eye on this mystery Romanian rig, but depends on shipping. Clubs first then armor later.
>>656252317.75lb SAPI M ain't that bad for an emergency "shit's real bad" plate. The FORT ACP-M is 9lb flat as a ~10x13 mimicking SAPI L and should be 7.87lb SAPI M, so the math roughly checks out on the 8002H given 7N37 is the primo threat for both. The ACP-M is also a somewhat older plate (~2020) and thus can't take advantage of modern improvements in UHMWPE.Remember, basic bitch RMA 1155s are over 8lb as well as typical Level III steel plates. Plenty of people "get by" with those.
>>65624475I just had a thought. What if /gq/'s armor autists bought out Highcom's stock and gained control of the company?>inb4 officially renaming them Highcum and the 4SAS4 to the 4SUS4
>>65625242Not terrible, not great. Very dyatlov. Question being is the weight worth the protection? Those 1155’s are honestly terrible speaking from experience. I’d like to see them in the 6lb range. Also semi related but would you expect an eventual deviation from sapi m type cuts to larger coverage plates?
how come all "tactical" shooting gloves are shit?doesn't matter how expensive or what brandat the end of the day I just come back to pic related
>>65625269This came up during the Highcum Threads. You'd need a couple million at least to get a controlling share of the company.IMO, they could end up getting bought by Mehler Systems as their entry into the US market.>>65625270>Question being is the weight worth the protection?A rule of thumb is that you shouldn't go over 6lb SAPI M for your mainline plates, so RMA 1155s, cheapo steel plates, and the Gilliam 8002H are all way overboard. >Those 1155’s are honestly terrible speaking from experience.8.3lb is annoying for a plate that apparently can't even make Level III or Level IV...>I’d like to see them in the 6lb rangeThere is an 8002L "light" at 6.75lb SAPI M which offers expected M993 defeat. The problem is that M993 is badly outclassed by modern tungsten AP, so if you're up against someone who can actually field exotic AP ammo then the expectation should be something closer to 7N37. If M993 is the de facto Level V threat, 7N37 is de facto Level VI. The whole "reload in a .300 Winmag" trick is also worth consideration for M993. M993 at 3,500 can breach plates only rated for it at up to 3,100ft/s, just as M2AP @ 3,200 can breach IVs only rated for it at 2,910ft/s. The 8002H is rated for Swiss P AP out of a .300 Winmag, along with other weird ass shit like M948 SLAP. It's supposed to be a hard motha.IMO, XSAPI / M993 protection will always be a half measure and catch-22. Overkill for CONUS, underkill for CONUS gone bad. 7N37 is a good cutoff because it proxies for most tungsten AP below the .338 / .50 arena.>Also semi related but would you expect an eventual deviation from sapi m type cuts to larger coverage plates?VelSys is trying to get SOCOM on board with 20% higher coverage "Wraith" plates but I haven't seen any evidence of adoption. Anything approaching full torso IMO will need to be flexible. 20% extra coverage means a corresponding weight increase too.
Botach Surplus also has these 12lb Council Tool breaching sledges for $160.https://surplus.botach.com/council-tool-law-enforcement-34-forcible-entry-tool-police-trade/A 30lb battering ram for $160, two of them total.https://surplus.botach.com/police-trade-dynamic-entry-thunderbolt-battering-ram/And a modified Blackhawk REAL FUCKIN' HALLIGAN for $150.https://surplus.botach.com/blackhawk-dynamic-entry-halligan-tool-police-trade/They need to drop the price on that $400 Rip and Ram. I get that's meant for crack castles but damn.
>>65625902Enter the PE Plate. I think the higher coverage could justify the weight. Now tungsten being the consideration as we know that would melt that shit but would be interesting. Flexibility could be a consideration which reminds me of some of the Russian multi plate systems. But really a bump up to say roughly sapi l spec would be intriguing at minimal cost to mobility
>>65626020You could be onto something. If we take the 1.88lb (10x12) Hesco 3801, which is the lightest legitimately sized Level III at this time, and make it 15x16" full torso then we're at about 3lb for one plate. >But really a bump up to say roughly sapi spec would be intriguing at minimal cost to mobilityM855 and LPS will kick the weight up. 5.2lb for a 3811 in that cut or if you're a turbo baller an A1-rated SC3812 would be 5.5lb. As a joke a 4800 would be 7.5lb, back up to nearly Hesco 4403 weight.>Flexibility could be a consideration which reminds me of some of the Russian multi plate systemsYeah, but then there's a gap or overlap. Overlap causes a weight penalty. Gaps are gaps.
>>65626057On that same leg, hybrid could be an option. Lighter protection in less critical areas (say rf1) then heavier in others. How to execute that without gaps, overlap, or inherent flaws, not sure.>other newsMulticam, grey, or green? I’ve narrowed down to mc or green for most part. Can’t truly decide.
>>65626238Dragonskin could be arranged in such a way where you have scales of X thickness, providing RF2 protection, in the traditional plate area and then thinner "Y" scales providing lesser RF1 protection outside of that.
>>65626246Now if only we could solve the age old adhesion issue…
>>65626250The fact Bain never got any version of DS certified since 2008 is a pretty strong sign there's still some underlying issue. Works great on youtube, but that doesn't directly translate to the real world especially after long term conditioning.The only really proven flexible rifle solutions are Verco's NIJ certified MotilityMH and Tencate's Ceraflex. The former is credential blocked and the latter is secret ball knowledge like LIBA. What needs to happen is an economical ceramic that provides B4C strength / areal density at substantially lower cost. That'll open up a lot of doors.
>>65624495the guerilla's guide to signal intelligenceprison survival guidedon't drop the soap
>>65621076Consider redman impact armor made from Adept foam. Full coverage HG2 armor against handguns and PCCs.
>>65626316How's this optimus prime looking aaah supposed to take a shit?
>>65626320Tactical diaper cuh.
>>65626324They got that on botach surplus homes or do I gotta go straight to tel aviv?
>>65626333You gotta go right to the source. On that note Botach surp hasn't updated their site like the rest of their enterprise has, so I'd be careful ordering from them until you're sure their PHP has been updated so you don't get hacked by l33tboy42069xxx out of some Wisconsin high school.
>>65626398They can't afford IT when they've got council tool assbeating hammers for $160. Also the shipping is about twenty bucks.Sounds like it's worth using a temp card service.
>>65626404Fuck it, go full offline and buy a physical Visa gift card or some other disposable prepaid using cash. Ultimate ghost to beat haxxors.
>>65626449Might wanna do that for Adept Armor's new combat drugs:https://www.ade.pt/combat-drugs/Alternatively, Botach Surplus' police spike strips. Pretty sure these get you on a list.https://surplus.botach.com/stinger-spike-systems-tire-spike-strips-18269-police-trade/Waiting for them to have "police surplus" signal jammers.
Afterall, why shouldn’t I choose multicam?
>>65626691fed camo
>>65626700Isn’t ranger green fed camo? What is wrong with fed camo?
>>65626703mistaken for los federales
Alright people. Tell me why I should not buy the Council Tool breaching sledge in >>65625937.
sometimes i go to the mexican place, order mole enchiladas, and imagine myself a sicario soldato in anudda life
>>65626706Que Los Federales? What is the concern? >>65626713Because the only thing you will be breaching is boxes of armor and maybe the fridge
>>65626729You could be mistaken for feds in a Katrina or summer of love type situation.>Because the only thing you will be breaching is boxesExcellent. It's justified then!
>>65626765Isn’t that as likely with any form of color gear? So there’s really nothing functionally wrong with multicam then?
>>65626771Not really. Feds prefer RG, MC, RG + tan. Many SWAT teams also do MC nowadays so they get that military +10 intimidation factor.
>>65626833So basically all the gear colors sans grey, black, mc black, and the other weird multicam patterns. Still not seeing reason to pick one.
I was playing the mw4 campaign on yolo difficulty and the fucking enemy SAS guys take thirty shots to kill BeCauSe PlAtEsNone of this was a thing until you /bag/gots were a thing and disseminated platetalk into the mainstream. Fucking fucks ruined my cod run.
>>65626889The power of 4s20m
>>65626881Yeah, gray is the "default" civie tactical color. You can also do black, M81, tiger stripe, MCB, or outdated camos.Russian / Euro camos are also pretty obviously not feds / LE.
>>65626889It was probably Sicario tbqh.
>>65626881Just get multicam.
>>65626691If you live in a transitional zone between a desert and an area with vegetation then go for it. Otherwise you’re better off with flecktarn or ss leto or some sort of actual desert camp depending on where you live.
>>65626320How do you not know what a redman suit is? This is basic training shit for cops and military.
>>65626917I know what it is, I'm just saying he can't take a shit without taking it off.Tactical dysentry gonna make a mockery of full body HG2.
>>65626917>Imagine actually being a zog bot.
How do I justify the desire for some hesco plates and a IIIA helmet to my wifeI will never be in a combat scenario and if anyone breaks into my house I won't have time to throw all my gear on. The truth is I just want cool shit. How do you all justify it?
>>65626928Just buy it anyway lmao. Wear the pants.
>>65626928You just quote 3 6 mafia at her.>See, hoe, I don't dance (Dance)>In the city where I'm from I wear the pants >(Wear the pants)>These bitches think they cool (Cool)>I got the dick so I make the rules (Make the rules)>I got a big ol' cock (Big ol' cock)>I love a bitch with a big ol' bra (Big ol' bra)>She love suckin' up cum (Cum)>I think I'ma give her some (Some)
>>65626928tell her you brought protection and then rail her in full kit. Congratulations you now have a real use for a helmet mounted thermal.
>>65626927>he can only imaginesucks to suck. I get a pension, nigger.>>65626924Take a poop prior. Unhinge the crotch, squat, and wetwipe if you absolutely need to shart on the job.
>>65626948i shit twice a day that isn't gonna work
>>65626954>i shit twice a dayWtf are you eating, freak?
>>65626959normal food bro
>>65626948>I get a pension niggerSo do I lmao.>>65626963He's a scrawny manlet, he wouldn't understand. I bet he wears a size small knockoff Chinese cryes
Anyone who wears 8x10 plates is a bottom
>>65626893It is either black, tan, grey, multigrain, or green. I have no other options>>65626907You mean multigrain?>>65626910I live in a transitional zone where the terms hoagie and cheesesteak determine whether opfor pulls out the tungsten ap super m855
>>65627010Also yes. Multigrain has a better fiber content so you don't get hemorrhoids. And trust me you DO NOT want hemorrhoids.
I shit twice a day. My asshole bleeds. The brown and red combine and I know I'm wiping two crayons for at least thirty minutes.Ruining my crisp white hanes.
>>65627124Multigrain + ucp pouches or green + ucp pouches? Or should it just be grey + ucp pouches. What is better for eye health
>>65627149Multigrain, multicam, multivitamins and multibitches.
>>65627189Green indicates scarcity mindset. A2 wore green. I won’t make that mistake.
>>65627010>I live in a transitional zone where the terms hoagie and cheesesteak determine whether opfor pulls out the tungsten ap super m855What kind of northern bullshit is this?
>>65627298back of the wawa parking lot on Aramingo in philly at 2:00 am
>>65627298I’m on some bullshit you wouldn’t understand >>65627302That Wawa only got sides
>>65627329That was a trick yo white motherfucka, now the cee cee k know yo azz out on that scene specific'ly. You betta get that level v sappy plate delivered fedex they be packin black tips and big black dicks
>>65627340Watch that voice cuh else we gon get armor anon talking paragraphs about level V sappy’s and black dicks
>The year is 2027>Gangbangers now have BOTACH SURPLUS breaching tools>Including real halligans and fifty pound two man rams>Anons realize home security is actually way more important than plates>entire armor industry files Chapter 7>Anons buy Highcomyou will be here
>>65627381We at the wawa wit the ex-kicker squad hammers the mofo workin the counter said the coffee machine been out for days yo I'm cold.Shut da fak up wit the level v sappy shit. Come drill time they'all just shoot yo ass in the dick. I heard its a small target tho
>>65627289A2 got droned
>>65627997The drone saw the green. If he had been wearing multicam he might have made it bro
>>65628066Drone had cheapo 80x60 porno thermal sensor, game was rigged from the start.>>65627382>>65626928ballistic shield bro.
Grey or multicam, final countdown. We going crye.
>>65628341grey and black embrace the Leon Scott Kennedy lyfe and roll a .500 S&W revolver
>>65626927>>65626924Put it on a dog bo with those high speed cheetah legs. Add an oil mister so it's slippery for anti-grapple mode. Vibe code targeting software for a bangstick. It can be dildo shaped to avoid scaring the blue city public.Voila, a low collateral damage police bot.
>>65628771botach surplus gonna have them for $180 a piece police trade in six months
tactical ladders are the unsung urban tool for urban tools.
I used a ladder once to get some leaves out of the gutter. That is tactical?
Update from RMA. They plan on submitting a few models for 0101.07 certification... next year!
>>65629041By then thousands of idiots will have completely different size and weight plates of the same models.
>>65629230That's okay it all falls within the VaRiAnCe and the NIJ just ChAnGeD the StanDard 70 TiMes.>When in reality, the NIJ hasn't changed the standard randomly, they do not permit a variance of any kind, and even Hesco had 0101.07 certified armor day one.I have realized one essential truth. Armor autists on reddit start with the assumption you can trust the manufacturer's word. Armor autists on the 'chan assume the manufacturer is a lying son of a bitch and need other indicia of proof. This is why RMA has no hold here.
Afterall, why shouldn’t I choose red?
>>65629426tactical mcdonalds. Go with this instead:https://www.ebay.com/itm/257708350803A vest with two jumbo 12x18" IIIA panels. $90 shipped.
>>65629454A2 was wearing red. Im not sure I should repeat that. The lpv is in the sky.
>>65629826bro was an elf
>>65629230Also as a follow up on this, it's pretty blatantly just a stalling tactic. Look at how Adept, formerly Diamond Age, has been saying they'll get stuff certified at some point, but it's been a decade and there is nothing on either CPL.
>>65630393Since Adept gets its PE from China, do you think the crackdown is affecting them much? Might explain some of the weird silence we've seen from them lately.
>>65630395>Since Adept gets its PE from ChinaDo they? I know it's not super great PE. Unless trauma padded like Archon or Emperor, their plates are always hot as fuck on BFD. Colossus is 43.6mm max on Swiss P AP and GEN1 Mantis does 40mm versus M855. However, that doesn't mean the PE is Chinese. Still could be though. I mean, their plates are cheap for doped ceramic. I think at least the SiC-TiB2 ceramic is Chinese. The timing, between the Colossus' release and earlier patent filings by a Shandong Yasai, is too good.>Might explain some of the weird silence we've seen from them lately.Gilliam was able to find alternative suppliers pretty quickly, so the crackdown isn't that bad. I think Adept blew a lot of capital on the Emperor / Archon G2 and don't have much left in the tank. Several pages on their site still 404 after months, so they don't have an IT guy on tap, and the supposedly Hesco 4800 killer Emperor's entire PR release was basically just an article by Laura Burgess Marketing. Now the 4S21M is coming out and the Emps is in a super awkward spot.
>>65630408Yeah, since we deduced their ceramic is likely Chinese I figured their PE was too. It makes sense given their supply chain and lack of cert. On that note I gotta call Botach sometime and ask if their IT guy updated their surp site's PHP so I don't get hacked by some assmad 12-year old from Wisconsin. I'm so tempted to bulk buy the trauma pad lottery and see what speed plate goodies show up.
>>65630412Well yeah, end of the day Diamond Age (now Adept) has been in the game since 2016 and has not one NIJ compliant product to show for it. Even RMA has done far better than that. Even Longfri has done better than that. Even AR500 has done better!So really it's gotta be they have funky ass supply chain stuff they don't want to disclose probably with the justification they would lose their advantage in unique materials. Problem is that Gilliam sources his SiC-TiB2 from them and has said he didn't really see a huge difference versus regular SiC.Similarly, Quatroid is just TiB2-doped SiC-B4C and the Emperor is B4C+Ti/TiN. All marginal improvements on base ceramic. Meanwhile China, experimentally, is engaging in R&D on AlMgB14-TiB2 ceramic which should be far more impressive, so if Adept is truly selling Chinese plates, their armor is still second division. The Colossus if you correct sizing to true 10x12 is 7.1lb. Beef a Hesco 4601 from 6.4lb to 7.1lb and it'll put on similar results.>On that note I gotta call Botach sometime and ask if their IT guy updated their surp site's PHP so I don't get hacked by some assmad 12-year old from Wisconsin. I'm so tempted to bulk buy the trauma pad lottery and see what speed plate goodies show up.Pastebin needs to stop being noplates and buy a pair of DT106Es...
Anyone use those Tasmanian tiger belts? What about tubes/other qd cummerbunds?
>>65629426If you love in tornado ally this would be a decent shelter vest. At least they can find you body ass up in the field. >>65629338Reddit usually takes years before changing their hive mind. Took awhile for them to hate APEX. There was a recent thread on RMA where people where slowly waking up.
>>65630664Even now, two guys (Pearlbutter and Protorin) continue to run defense for hours on Apex's behalf. They gotta be on some kinda payroll or are gunning for industry jobs, because they softball straight up sketchy shit (nominal sizing, the 1155 NIJ revocation, etc).>There was a recent thread on RMA where people where slowly waking up.I saw that one. You criticize RMA and you get buried by downvotes within the day. It's very organic, lol. Hence why proper armor discussion needs to happen elsewhere.
>same faggots yappingiight im out
>>65630822Hi RMABye RMA
Hey guys, we got a new one. Undersizing plates is because police departments only buy one size and giving everyone 9.5x11.5s works better for women.
>>65630874what is rma? this is a gear thread
>>65630936Return Merchandise Authorization aka Return My Armor. They function as a noob filter in the greater ecosystem of armor. If you don't like RMA, it's because you've actually been around the block a few times and know of their tomfoolery.
>>65630943sounds like you have some deep mental problems with them maybe you should seek therapy
>>65630946lmao I laugh at them. I find them a source of entertainment, actually.
Pastebin go buy the fuckin' Protechs off Botach Surplus so you don't keep sneeding you're noplates.I'm trying to help you cuh
god damn, Gilliam might be getting sales from reddit. The $200 a plate, Level IV, 6.35lb multi curve 1635 is turning heads. Can we get a preliminary price on the certified future version of the 1635? All eyes seem to be on that one if it delivers a no trick, certified, properly sized answer to the RMA 1165 - aka the greatest noob filter plate of all time.If it's certified 0101.07 and comes in under $500/set, frankly I see no reason to carry on with the Hesco 4403 in >>65620890.
>>65630954How much is Botach paying you? I want a slice of this honey loaf. Go birds
When running nods, do you need an ir laser?
>>65631364Depends on what you want to do, and also if your OPFOR has NV as well. It's great if you're shooting at something that doesn't, but anyone with even a digital is gonna see that beam. Don't need it for observation or surveillance either. On the flip side it's nice to have and better to not need and have, then need and not have. Plus some can be fairly inexpensive, although quality isn't so great for those. /nvg/ used to get into big discussions over the best IR laser setups, especially after Russian options dried up in 2022.
>>65631411smschizo's hfxc returns! The 4sus4 of LAMs.>>65631275How much is Gilliam paying you cuh
>>65631411Thanks anon. I’ve been really thinking about getting an a1 upper lately. Currently have an a4, and just don’t really like it.Obviously can’t really mount a laser on an a1, but it’s good to know I wouldn’t really need one.>depends on what you wanna doWell, probably like 99% of the time wearing them around the house at night or taking night walks.The 1% is reserved for potential societal collapse. lol
Gentlemen, the Aussies have gotten shit on the NIJ 0101.07 CPL. Introducing... Craig International Ballistics!https://ballistics.com.au/capabilities/personal-protection/ballistic-plates/They have three PE plates, two of which are 0101.07 certified, and the last one of which is a veritable competitor to the Hesco 3801.For not 0101.07 certified yet, they also have a series of RF2s, an RF3, and an RF3+ called the HS456F. This plate weighs 6.46lb on a SAPI M, and is rated for the following:1. 3x 30-06 M2AP at minimum 51mm spacing.2. Tungsten 5.56 M9953. Tungsten 7.62x51 M993Basically it's a standalone XSAPI but with significantly better crack arresting. Would be 6.2lb for a 10x12. Not bad at all!
>>65620877With the end of freedom guaranteed today, how likely are they to come for body armor? They've tried before.
>>65631485The NY ban is being overturned and libs love to buy their kids IIIA backpack panels because muh school shootings, so nope.
>>65631485Very unlikely unless retired FBI agents start grooming more doomer young men and it creates a justification. That said, people are going to panic buy and it's likely the cheapo policesurp armor we're seeing is gonna dry up a bit. Not entirely... but if you were looking at those $200/set DT106Es or whatever I'd buy now.
What would be the best armor against the two most common rifle threats: 55gr 5.56 out of a 16" barrel and whatever 7.62x39 is fed through a Draco on the streetz?
>>65631997I assume Norinco mild steel core 7.62x39 is still in play (as the NIJ standard supports), so any compliant RF1 plate will suffice. 55gr 5.56 is generally not steel core and therefore will not be able to challenge an all-PE plate.I'm gonna caution that M855 "green meanies" out of an ARP are still a problem, and while nowhere near RF2 spec, are going to be questionable against PE plates.Perfect would be a pair of Hesco 3811s, either the 3.4lb 10x12 current version or the rare boron carbide 2.9lb version. These guarantee M855 defeat at not much more weight than typical PE plates. In fact, they're lighter than some cheaper all-PEs. Good enough would be RF1 Gilliam Helions (stock is low or out) or maybe those $100 a plate Level III copsurp Protech DT106Es with the caveat they're a little short on 7.62x39 MSC velocity at 2,330ft/s versus 2,400ft/s, and M43 not Type 56. Also no 30 degree shots.
>>65620877What do you guys recommend for ear muffs?
>>65631364For shooting, yes. You can make a vis laser work. It’s not going to be as great, but you can get by. >>65631420Can’t say, I signed a NDA>>65632034DT106Es being tempting for next set. I probably get some thin ass pl8 for some of these intriguing low vis carriers. Just worry about the mailman breaking my shit >>65632219Peltors have given me good luck especially with gel cups. They are kind of bulky, but these are the sport line or whatever. I think there was an infographic with screaming Chinese people holding their ears we (I partly) cooked up a while back
>>65632304That's the downfall of the VelSys PBZSA, lol. 0.52" thick, 4.15lb SAPI M, good for 7.62x51mm M80 through 7.62x39 BZ API and 5.56x45mm M855A1. No drop pro, multi hit sucks. Super thin though.Ditto for that Ceradyne SAEC. Like 0.6-0.7" thick, ostensibly M2AP rated, 4lb on a swimmer. Same problems. No drop, if you want a second hit the spacing better be wide as hell.>Can’t say, I signed a NDADamn, at least you're more honest than some of the armor nerds on reddit who will defend Apex for literal hours and then say they have zero affiliation. Like, homes, RMA's actual paid community rep, whose actual job is to rep RMA on reddit, is putting in a fraction of the effort you are.
As anticipated, people on other sites are panic buying plates. hm. Seeing redemption tactical mystery meat, RMA, Highcom 4S17Ms. Naturally, also steel.Maybe Adept's timing on the Emperor might not have been terrible... depends on how much people are willing to panic spend.
>>65632034NTA but for shorty Dracos I'd expect velocity to be quite a bit lower, especially at longer than point blank range. You could get by with a DT106E easy unless dem green tips come out.
>>65632420Just be careful about the angle. See Gilliam's explanation here: >>65624572 and my discussion of some suspect (as always...) RMA test reports here: >>65624647.
>>65632412Sgammo is also scamming the shit out of people rn
>>65632385I’m looking for that magic rf1 mostly thin plate that doesn’t cost 8 gorgillion. I think I’ll be looking for a while.>ndaNo you misunderstand. I have zero affiliation besides being on the hook for providing a Philly tour per the terms of getting my lovely helions. Lol. I would be willing to work for armor though. Go birds
Gilliam, think about it. Years of indentured servitude in exchange for some rf2/rf3’s… I could even throw in an enhanced Philly tour package on top.
Brotach has a pair of First Choice III ICWs in stock for $100 a pair. Smash or pass?https://surplus.botach.com/first-choice-armor-level-iii-icw-rifle-plates-10x12-pair-police-trade/
>>65632522Pass unless they offer a free Philly tour. Others may have a different take. Not bad as a pair, but hefty for what they are not including the soft armor.
>>65632219I'm a howard leight enjoyer. >>65632522Ooof 2009 production 6.5lb iii. I'd pass but if you enjoy testing some armor this would be fun and cheap.
>>65632522>>65632553That's old school. Weight is for the pair and strongly suggests early PE plates. ICW IIIA roughly adds a pound, puts you at over 4lb a piece for a plate that probably is no dice versus 7.62x39mm.Botach knows what they're selling. $100 a set is bottom barrel just like the recalled 4400s.
>>65632504Bro down bad in the city of Brotherly Love, selling cheeks for $200 plates.
Alright anons, I’m finally in a place where I can start buying some gear. I’m looking to get NVG. So I need->bump helmet recommendations-people have said to me it’s better to use a bump helmet 99% of the time because ballistic helmets are heavy>mountsNotes-I’m pretty pig on ear pro. If using my walker razor slims are not the best option, please direct me in the right direction.If you have any notes on plates or tac vests to keep in mind, let me know. I’m not at that point yet. Honestly may never be, but I’m open to hearing you out.Also, just because I’m in a position to be able to buy a few things, that doesn’t mean I want to spend my life savings. Thanks, anons.>pic is soldier from Fallujah and the COD 4 menu
>>65632610big on ear pro*Also, I forgot to mention, maybe some nods to actually look into.
>>65632609That… wasn’t in the package dont be giving Gilliam false hopes cuh
>>65632610bump helmet good for training, hunting. etc. ballistic otherwise, they aren't that much more heavy modern ballistic helmets really are very light, you'll want counterweight set to balance for your neck.for ear pro I only like Comtacs, whatever the latest is. I have Vs but the I wouldn't go lower than V. I dont like amps they break easily.for nods pick a housing that makes sense then go from there.some good housings:>Act in Black DTNVS>Any of the Nocturn Industries stuff, Katanas, etc.>RNVGsThere's a lot of gimmicky stuff out there too for lenses, housings, they make some semi-pano duals but the increase in FoV is minimal compared to actual quad panos. RPO lenses sprite a lot and overall aren't as good IMO as the standard carson lenses.The intentifier tubes are measured differently between euro spec Photonis and American like Elbit/L3 so you cant compare the specs 1 to 1. if you have a strict budget Photonis Echos aren't bad people shit on them but theyre perfectly fine there is a noticeable difference though in terms of grainyness, but a Photonis tube is still magnitude better than a shitty digital tube.L3 filmless is the way to go but your wallet is gonna get raped, it is by far the best tubes though. Super gain is not needed at all, gimmicky shit.
>>65632610It depends on your intended use and budget. What are we working with here? Cant really go wrong with an Omni. A case could be made for photonis though it depends on your environment, budget, and tolerance for bullshit.
>>65632610just buy a IIIA Ceradyne BA3A from Botach for $75, weight isn't that bad.Better to have and not need protection than need and not have.>>65632661Ah, so that's why his best plate was called the 99... 69.
>>65632673>It depends on your intended use and budget. What are we working with here?Let me just put it this way then- I’m not about to drop 8 grand on night vision. I’m just at a slightly better position where I can realistically start saving up little by little.>intended useProbably all I’ll ever do is walk around my house at night, stargaze, take night walks, maybe innawoods. I hope to hunt coyotes someday as well.>>65632668Thanks anon, I don’t really know what any of that means.
>>65632709Mono budget. Probably best value for dollar will be an Omni. Just learn your terminology and what to look for when you’re able to jump. Plenty of serviceable tubes out there. You can swap the housing as >>65632668 mentions but you don’t absolutely need to do so. Price your bumps. You don’t have to go crazy here. I will say sometimes it is cheaper to get a surplus helmet and either have it modded to fit a mount. Thats a little bit sturdier in my book, but ultimately you should be tying your unit to the helmet anyways. Barring that, photonis would probably be a good fit for you. There is also the thermal option if that’s your speed. Hell, I’ll even throw digital out there depending on what you’re looking for. It won’t be as fancy, but you could scrape by. Generally expect to pay 3-5 for a setup give or take a 1.5 depending on if you go with cheaper options.
>>65632758This is good advice. If you're strapped for cash and have to look at digital, keep it below $500 a unit. GNG2K is top dog for budget digital mono. Still far inferior to a good analog tube and you'll be relying on that illuminator a lot in darker environments. The $1k and up stuff? Just save a paycheck or two more for an omni tube.Buy cheap. Buy twice.
>>65632767>>65632758>Mono budget. Probably best value for dollar will be an Omni.>This is good advice.>Just save a paycheck or two more for an omni tube. Buy cheap. Buy twice.Thanks anons. I really appreciate that. So, in terms of a helmet, and my uses, what would you guys recommend?Open ears, closed, bump, ballistic, both?
>>65632812Chinesium bump or surplus helmet. Whichever ends up cheaper. I went and chopped an ach. I’m happy with it. Is the ballistic rating somewhat compromised? Probably. You could do the same off Botach. Also depends if you wanted to integrate ear pro or work around it somehow. For non-shooty stuff that’s going to look damn weird though. Granted any nvg will be weird. Alternatively you could do something like a tracer tactical headrest and forgo the bump, but a caveat being you really want to do the boonie hat mod with that thing as the stock harness is god awful and ultimately that largely depends on the weight of the unit.
>>65632812Secondary note, whatever you go with, make sure to tie that shit down. You don’t want to be hanging your precious technology with only one attachment point. Lastly, go birds
>>65632812one thing I would say is dont cheap out when it comes to NV or thermal.fuck digital NV, pure cope. If you can only afford a white phosphor omni spec PVS14 then thats what you get, you can fuck some shit up with a PVS14, I've shot like 3 skunks in one night with a mono + suppressed G17.Duals are nice but if you dont know what you're doing like anything else you're just a Gucci fag with excess gear you can't use.If you get a bump helmet get a team wendy or opscore dont cheap out, you will be wearing that helmet with your expensive NV on it. Then go on unobtainium gear and buy a RAT rapid tether lanyard for your device and strap that shit down.stick with CR123A housings, nobody is running AAs anymore, actually I don't think I have a single device in my entire house that uses a AA battery, everything is AAA or CR123A or 9V. you dont need a battery pack for analog nods they barely use any power, thermal is a whole other story.
>>65632812Go ballistic. If you need the protection and you don't have it, you're fucked. If you don't need the protection and yet you have it, your neck is sore but you're alive.Better to have and not need than need and not have. Obviously, cut this principle off at some point, based on the situation.
>>65632953I dont know where this fudd logic came from that ballistic helmets are heavy, a modern team wendy ballistic sl is 2.3 lb for size 2, I run an XL for my melon fucking head and it's super light, unironically they just need to lift and beef their shoulder/neck muscles.
>>65633063There are people out there who have admitted they give bad advice on purpose so the "enemy" in their boog fantasy has shit gear. Just worth keeping in mind.>>65632498We're five years out from all-PE RF2s being mainstream due to tech improvements. That's the real prize and will enable fully drop proof, all purpose plates that can eat a lot of shots, eat shots tight together, and handle magnum rifle just fine.RF1s are all fun and games until dudebro with M855 out of a 16" rolls up. They serve a purpose, but run out of gas quickly.
>>65633124>people out there who have admitted they give bad advice on purpose so the "enemy" in their boog fantasy has shit gear. Just worth keeping in mind.when Gemini and others exist? it's 2026 not 2022. All it takes is one click. People still ask these questions Lol.
>>65633168AI sources a vast majority of its data from reddit and we both know how shit those takes can be.
>>65630664Well, looky here, one of the /r/tacticalgear mods appears to be a self-admitted RMA employee. Would explain some things.
WHO WANTS TO PLAY THE ZYLON LOTTERY?https://surplus.botach.com/le-soft-armor-panels-assorted-police-trade/
>>65633124I am impatient and need them soon. My only concern is plate thickness as that level. May roll the dice in a thin ass plate. >m855It is a factor but I tend to hold the idea that rf1 mileage goes a long way. Strictly talking 5.56, I’d wager most have moved onto the heavier weights and/or just obtained m193 for range ammo. There are outliers though.>>65633367Has my eyes on these. It’s either this or roll the dice on a Romanian chest rig.
>>65632837>PVS14, I've shot like 3 skunks in one night with a mono + suppressed G17.nice. I’ve got a Gen 2 Glock 17. I used to think it would be a cool thing to basically do exactly that but with beavers.I have this autistic thing where I want my “hero gun” as one anon put it. I just think at the end of the day I’m more of a shotgun guy honestly. idkWhat’s even the difference between PVS14 and duals?I wish ideally I could do like one night vision and one thermal. Drones and whatnot.
>>65632953>>65633063>Go ballisticBased. Should I go IIIA like >>65632704 said?>>65632821>for non shoot stuff it will look weirdYeah, that’s a good point. I do like the regular looking helmets. Is there a size chart?
looking for a mag pouch like that on the smersh with side pockets, is there a specific name for this style of pouch that'll make it easier to find ones similar to it? I don't really want to buy mystermeat off of aliexpress or what have you.
>>65633417Unless you find an old-stock PASGT or something, most ballistic helmets nowadays (both new and copsurp) are IIIA.
>>65633417For a surplus helmet route might as well. Nothing wrong with bumps unless you may get shot in the head, which sounds like a real headache. They tend to be a little bit sturdier too. In any case it’s best to buy new for that but of course the limitation being how many benjis you want to put down. >size chartYou can probably find something online. Usually there exists a magic chart which I don’t have. I know that I run an xl because I am big brain. Most places you’re luck of the draw of what they have unless otherwise specified. eBay and a select few others are more likely to list sizing. If it’s too big you could always mitigate with some juicy thicc pads. >regular looking helmetThey all look retarded. Same goes for nvg. Make sure to walk real nice for me on project runway
>>65633451Just keep in mind helmets are governed by NIJ 0106.01, not body armor 0101.06, which has no certification process and no official IIIA rating because it hasn't been updated since the 1980s. Thus, "IIIA" helmets are gonna be all over the place, especially with things like backface deformation.>>65633768Those BA3As are one size fits most, FWIW.
>>65634039True. At any rate, any thoughts on the Brotach $20 Zylon lottery? I see PACA and Point Blank labels. Might be good for car doors/seat backs if it isn't Zylon?
>>65634126PACA is old school. Problem isn't just zylon. First-gen Spectra / Dyneema soft armor doesn't stand the test of time either, especially if subjected to high or low temps.Only aramid panels are going to consistently age well. There are cops on arfcom who have tested old spectra panels and they shit the bed.>Might be good for car doors/seat backs if it isn't Zylon?I mean... maybe?
Verdict on crye lpv: extremely comfy. Flc fits over like a glove. Ended up going multicam. No ragrets
>>65634165based
>>65633409thin ahh plates are gonna be weak ahh plates tbqh
>>65634339That’s a trade off I’m willing to take. No discounted dinner as some might say. Im going to have to negotiate with my mailman though. Go birds
>>65634339Fake A2
Is the crye lvs the best soft body armor vest available to the credentially challanged?
>>65634500Yeah. It's got rave reviews but the AS3510 armor package is seemingly not FBI compliant. That could be an issue given contact shots.>>65634366VelSys PBZSA for the win then. Expensive ($2.1k a pair), but not Protech DT306C/HW ($2.8k) or Hesco SC3812 ($3.4k) or Hesco SC3812B ($4.2k) expensive.Side bar, who the hell is paying $4.2k for a pair of Hescos? You got that scratch go to Tencate.
Anons, should I Fallujah max? In other words, 20” barrel a4, with an ACH? I’m so close to settling on the ACH, but I just wanna make sure it’s not gonna be a regret buy. Would be a pretty aesthetic LARP though.
>>65634530where are you getting the ACH? ebay? what's the price it might be overpriced, you used to be able to get a Gentex modern ballistic helmet for like $800, not sure if that's still the case with inflation but I wouldn't pay more than $300 for a beat to shit ACH with questionable armor cap.
>>65633414>What’s even the difference between PVS14 and duals?pvs14 is just the general model, it's like saying a Honda civic is a sedan, PVS14 = Sedan, Honda = Nocturn Industries, Civic = Tanto (the actual model) for a shitty analogy.mono = pvs14, single tube, depth perception is fucked, you can train around it but duals are much easier on the eyes, with a mono you will constantly have one eye strained due to one seeing the light of the tube, one seeing dark, each person will vary, me personally it does not bother me much, some people it really bothers them. ive used duals and mono and once you do duals you won't go back.
>>65633414single = good enoughduals = GoodIf you're poor or don't plan to ever use NV go single. Otherwise, get dual.
>>65634543especially when a FUCKIN' BA3A is $75.A second-gen UHMWPE (not aramid) ACH is likely lighter though.Botach Surplus also now has over 1,000 City Trade... bowling pins. $12 a piece or four easy payments of three dollars.https://surplus.botach.com/brunswick-max-bowling-pin-city-trade/
>>65634154Oh well. No free lunch indeed.
>>65634521I got dreams, but not the scratch yet. Is there a thinish rf1 budget plate or no free lunch applies?
>>65634736If you want soft armor that stands the test of time, it'll need to be aramid. >"Pretty muchly that leaves woven aramid as the last man standing. This stuff is, as always, a great material. It is tough, fireproof (it will char but not melt at above 700 F) and will retain most of its ballistic effectiveness even after reaching this temp. Being woven, it breathes better. Contact shots have a much harder time getting through."Compare versus PE:>"In situations where it gets hot (and most car trunks in the summer can get HOT), it will denature, reverting back to simple milk jug plastic... if the material goes over 180 F, it becomes a danger to its wearer."700 vs 180 degrees. That's a bit of the "Body Armor: The Good, The Bad, the Ugly" for you. Old school armor guide written by D-Rmor around 2011, who was arguably the very first armor autist. Weird obsession with ultrahard steel plates. Not sure if that aged well, but his advice for soft armor is excellent.https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Body-Armor-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly/17-652256/>>65634824>Is there a thinish rf1 budget plate or no free lunch applies?No free lunch rule is absolute iron law. RF1 plates are polyethylene, polyethylene, and polyethylene.. and some trauma padding. PE comes in different grades, but at the end of the day it's the same fundamental material. If you want a thinner plate, you're going to have to accept it's going to be weaker. To make those thinner plates work, you need to use higher grade PE. Enter Dayton Armor and their 1.8lb SAPI M (1.6lb 10x12) RF1 SA for $1,852 a pair. Dayton underbuilds their plates even more than guys like Hesco. A lot more, actually. BFD numbers are always ugly as hell with them. I wouldn't recommend them. Cheap, thin PE plates are gonna be ICWs - think GARMs 1s.
>>65634892Well, at least Brotach has plenty of other cheap surp soft armor deals which are undoubtedly aramid. Would've been funny to get some good kevlar out of the lottery though. Probably a better use of my money to get that LE trade Golden Dragon katana they're selling, because at least you can display that unsharpened pot metal wallhangar on your mantlepiece. With any luck some burglar will mistake it for a real sword, come at you with it, and get legally ventilated on nannycam with enough M193 to resupply Khe Sanh.
>>65634916Vast majority of OLD panels (prior to 2000) are going to be aramid. Kevlar, Twaron, etc. Still need to be careful:1. Excessive water exposure can damage aramid fibers. They do regain strength after drying but this does prematurely age them if done repeatedly. No free lunch rule continues to be a dick, UHMWPE is totally fine with water. PE just cannot do heat.2. Commercial UHMWPE can be traced back to the 1970s, and Honeywell was pumping out Spectra by 1985. Stands to reason there's plenty of 0101.02 / 0101.03 period soft armor out there using now aged PE fibers. Dyneema, Spectra, or otherwise.3. Zylon was not produced at scale until 1998 with Toyobo, but was first developed in the 1980s, so it also stands to reason there are pre-98 PBO-fiber panels / plates out there.The above does beg the question of whether there are sub-5lb B4C-Zylon Level IVs lost to time from the 1980s-1990s floating around somewhere. They were around by '04 with Ceradyne. Second Chance allegedly had a VERY light Level IV (~4.5lb) in the back catalog.>Probably a better use of my money to get that LE trade Golden Dragon katana they're selling, because at least you can display that unsharpened pot metal wallhangar on your mantlepiece. With any luck some burglar will mistake it for a real sword, come at you with it, and get legally ventilated on nannycam with enough M193 to resupply Khe Sanh.I was thinking some of those breaching tools.
>>65634543>>65634605>where are you getting the ACH?I was planning on getting it from Botach.>>65634549>Honda civicI want the Honda Civic of night vision. In other words, the Honda civic is cheap but lasts forever and can be built up to beat supercharged V8’s.>>65634553>single = good enough>duals = GoodWhat do people mean when they say “duals” and “singles”?
>>65634999duals are two tubes, one for each eye, also called a binocular. Singles = one eye = mono. Quad is four and is the baller shit. Two tubes to an eye.Then add on COTI (clip on thermal imager) and COSI (clip on shortwave imager) for extra baller points.
>>65634999Dual = two tubes, single = one tube. Prices go up accordingly.
im finna samurai it uphttps://www.amazon.com/Retropo-Tactical-Shoulder-Protector-Equipment/dp/B0DSC2TB15/
>>65635099ngl Adept needs to make a ballistic version of that. We live in the "everyone has their own flavor" era.
On that note, could we see older PE variants (J100, etc) that lose to steel like MSC laminated up as poor man's M80 ball-stopping "SRT" plates? Since they can't win at RF1, III is on the way out, and SRT is the catch-all for rifle plates that can't hack it at regular ratings. I can see a renaissance in cheap, thin PEs that mimic the old pasta IIIs.
>>65635438If the PE plates are on the thinner side, they'll lose to both 7.62x39 MSC and 7.62x51mm M80 at least on BFD. They'd have to be SRTs in a sense, but people really don't like plates that run over 44mm BFD.See how RMA's 1003 SRT lacks 7.62x39mm MSC defeat at 30 degrees AND also walked back the 7.62x51mm M80 claim, or how Gilliam GARMS 1 loses to MSC and M80 on BFD if used standalone, or Dayton's stuff in general.>III is on the way outSurprisingly, NIJ is keeping 0101.06 active through at least 2030 due to how thin the 0101.07 CPL is.
Here's an old interesting article. Basically, a cop got cheat ringed by his soft armor. NIJ shot to edge rule considers any shots closer than 2" to the edge to be "unfair" and not required, which screwed said cop over back in 2011. This goes for plates and also soft armor too.>NIJ is also aware the same model ballistic vest was worn during an officer involved shooting in November 2011. The round fired by the suspect in that incident passed through the officer’s vest at a point within one inch from the edge of the front ballistic panel, where the CAT model QVA-3A-1 vest is not expected to afford ballistic protection. The CAT model QVA-3A-1 ballistic vest, when new, was demonstrated to have met the former NIJ0101.04 Body Armor Standard in 2004.https://bodyarmornews.com/national-institute-of-justice-statement-on-body-armor/This does beg the question of why people are measuring themselves as if plates / panels always provided true edge-to-edge. Maybe the Russians, FSB specifically, are onto something by trying to push SAPI Large-sized plates as universal sizing. A large is just barely wider than a 10x12 and gets you another inch in length, so you have an "edge buffer" versus SAPI M 9.5x12.5 or counterpart commercial 10x12.This same NIJ rule is also why I really don't like nominally sized plates. It's shot from edge, so if we take a 9x11 not-10x12, the area of actual coverage drops as well, because you count two inches from edge.
>>65633429>mystermeat off of aliexpress or what have you.Do it
>>65633429Look for ELCS magazine pouches, I have 4 and love them, but they are a little rare and a little expensive
>>65632488Sg (shabbos goy) ammo scammed me out of some 30-40 krag and told me to get fucked when I asked for a refund or replacement
>>65635823you should fuck them back with a chargeback, and a nasty BBB review so the boomers stay awayThen fuck them on yelpand google reviewsand fuck them again by signing all their emails up for pornhub premium free trials.and the jehovah's witnesses.Make the Jehovies show up at their doorMake them get a restraining order against the jehoviesthen fuck their mudda
Yo trash sniper, pair of MSA Paraclete DHP3s on ebay for $150. Made in PA in 2010. 6lb Alumina-Dyneema-Goldflex (Kevlar) ceramic composite, triple curve. III+ rating, has been tested to defeat 10x M193 on one plate by one guy. Also tested well below. They're similar on paper to Highcom 3S9Ms but drop pro is iffy.https://www.ebay.com/itm/407340060824?https://bodyarmornews.com/level-iii-plate/
>>65635586I was more talking about how the pasta plates are a nominal 0.7" and fail to MSC but still stop M80 ball with sub-44mm BFD. I can see cheapo companies churning out inexpensive "SRTs" that use older/cheaper domestically available PE formulations and have similar performance to the pastas, especially since per Gilliam the stronger Chinesium PE is drying up due to Xi's crackdowns.
>>65636143Thing is, the Pastas were nice plates thirty years ago. Now, cheaper domestically sourced PE is surprisingly going to be more expensive versus higher end Chinese PE. Hence why all the budget Level IVs (1155, Protech 2014 series, 4S17M, 4403, 4SAS7) are fiberglass backed.The end result of your proposal would be something like the RMA 1003. Downgrade from Chinese stuff. China dominates with PE except for the highest end.
>>65636156My question is if Xi's little export tantrum is gonna upend the PE market conditions you described. Gilliam seems to think so and is cutting his losses since his supplier got vanned to a Chinese wrongthink prison camp. If cheap Chinese PE really does becomes scarce, what do you think will start to take over? Fiberglass again? Aramids? Maybe layered aramid/fiberglass composites?
>>65636174Gilliam is also trying to get NIJ compliant and you can't do that if you don't have consistent sourcing. NIJ is actually really anal about ensuring batches and lots of materials are consistent.If Xi is cracking down hard, then prices should be cranking up with the other shops like Militech, Jinwudun, IGY6, Ace Link, LAPG, etc. I don't see that reflected yet.>f cheap Chinese PE really does becomes scarce, what do you think will start to take over? Fiberglass again? Aramids? Maybe layered aramid/fiberglass composites?Aramid can get pricey. My 2230s are aramid backed and were over $1k a set in 2015 when they were made. It'll have to be binary, fiberglass for cheap. domestic PE for premium, like it is now. Aramid backed plates today are mostly LTC / Point Blank holdout models from the late 00s.
>>65636206There are ultra-high performing PE sources from NATO registered suppliers in NATO member states that will be more heavily leveraged. We custom order a blend of fabric inter-layerings and are very pleased with the results. I think Chinese PE will always be "available" and I don't think there is any short-term threat of Chinese PE supply interruption. What is a problem are the reliable engineering data that support well designed layups since the provision of such data is prima facie evidence that the Chinese supplier "knew" that they were shipping illegal material. J100, etc. out of China will still perform well... it's just that the supporting data, batch testing (V50, etc.) can't be depended on (IMHO) for NIJ CPL work. There is one source that I am familiar with that will actually provide detailed spec sheets and I don't know how long that will even last.
>>65636227Here is a picture of the several types of PE we currently use (Chinese supply is very low percentage wise and only sources used that provide QC data are used). On the left, bottom is standard J200, Left (top) is J300 with membrane structure composite materials for greater rigidity. Right - NATO supplier, custom PE reaching J400 strength. All of these products have different performance and vary on pricing. Note the color differences and the resin system variations between them (hint for your YT video analyses).
>>65636227>>65636288Neat. So there was an excerpt in your chinesium article I was curious about:>"US UHMWPE manufacturers typically make PE at the J200-J300 equivalency with the best grades roughly equivalent to XINGI J300. Some of the most advanced, stateside PE can reach the J400 level. To limit exposure to prosecution, the vast majority of Chinese firms will not include anything more than J100 in their products (some will extend to J200). This means that the UHMWPE coming out of China is sufficient but not the strongest... it is effective but engineering and product are constantly under threat from potential prosecution. Lowering the quality of material passing through export controls reduces the legal risk for Chinese suppliers. This is the dangerous vulnerability in what's going on."So this J400 stuff is supposed to be the cream of the crop. Now that you have a quasi-J400 equivalent supplier, do you have any upcoming RF1s you're able to disclose using that material? That could be exactly what >>65632498 is looking for.
>>65636016Hell yeah, thanks. Any idea on thickness? I think geo report on alumina dropped today too but not sure.>>65636316It is exactly what the trash sniper seeks. Go birds
>>65636206>>65636227>>65636288Interesting. So Chinese PE supplies will continue on a wink-wink nudge-nudge "plastic for toys and kitchen counters" basis, with the downside of inconsistent quality due to lacking data. I expect reputable manufacturers to move away from that while the usual suspects keep churning cheaper (and lesser) stuff out. Sounds about right?
>>65636337Shouldn't be thicker than the Helions. It's 0101.04 2005IR, so no drop protection requirement. For comparison, the similar layup, but drop protected Highcom 3S9M is 1.15" or so with drop pro.>It is exactly what the trash sniper seeks. Go birdsMy assumption is that J300 counterparts Hesco 3800 / 3802 type plates while J400 is more par with the Combat Systems RF2 and 3801. Could result in some interesting models if they lighten up on export controls. If.Better PE also means better backers for higher level plates. Militech's RF3 Black Label for example could maybe enter the mid-5lb range. Probably worth noting the Adept Emperor uses the real gucci shit too. Would explain the price tag.>>65636341I'll let Gilliam answer since he's got the direct info there. It is worth noting some Chinese suppliers are now making (allegedly) UV-stabilized Zylon, so that's worth watching out for if some new supplier rolls up with extremely good weight claims.
>>65636394So Chinesium Zylon lottery is now a thing then? Good lord we're gonna get merc'd like that cop in SD. Jesus fuck.
>>65636316J400 "equivalents" are around 40cN/dtex and depending on how you press it and what resins you use, it can impact performance. In general, an RF1 plate using this type of equivalency in the modern day, in a true 10" X 12" size with "normal" chamfers will be right at 2 pounds. A lot of variability goes into that... you can go even lighter if you give up some penetration depth (or V50). The thickness is not the PE (that's only 12-14mm)... it's the 8-12mm of foam on the wear face REQUIRED to get BFD down to 44mm or less due to the nasty M80. The M193 and MSC are generally not a problem and the plate could be much thinner if it wasn't for the substantial energy of the M80. I am speaking in general terms here... there are lots of tweaks you can make to lighten up but it's always a balance between performance and redundant protection.
>>65636341The thing to be careful of now is a substitution in order to hedge against punishment. If you ordered J300 (and you could even find a company that would back it up w/ engineering and testing data) then all I am pointing out is that there would be a substantial "motivation" to provide something less than J300 quality to avoid being discovered in the export process. This is a real negative in my view as the motivation for supplying ballistic materials should be in the other direction --- not to the downside.
>>65636394Yes - but a lot of variability in the equivalencies. Resin, press technique, layup, ply thickness and count all contribute. I'd say much of what is used by domestic pros in the USA is J300-J400...but the comparison isn't direct. Good fiber costs dollars. J100 is super cheap. J300-400 is much more expensive (3x, 4x, 5x). I am super concerned that the threat of prosecution will invisibly impact Chinese export PE quality...
>>65636401Yeah. Just watch for suspiciously low weights. Should be doing that in general anyway to screen for sizing tricks or cheat rings. Second Chance Ultima was 0.67psf for IIIA back in the day (2004), 0.52psf for Level II. Zero-G Black Diamond was even lighter, so 2004 Zylon was (on paper and ignoring conditioning) superior to current high end UHMWPE soft armor. That's the weight ballpark to watch for. Approximate weight floors for high end, good plates on a legit 10x12:Level III: 1.8lbRF1: 2lbRF2: 2.9lbRF2 + M855A1: 3.6lbRF3: 4.5lb (this is pushing it)>>65636419>In general, an RF1 plate using this type of equivalency in the modern day, in a true 10" X 12" size with "normal" chamfers will be right at 2 pounds. Does beg the question of how Hesco is arriving at 1.76lb for the older version of the 3801 that has seen some presence in Ukraine. Maybe it doesn't do 7.62x39 MSC reliably and at oblique.>it's the 8-12mm of foam on the wear face REQUIRED to get BFD down to 44mm or less due to the nasty M80That's probably partially where Dayton's plates are going wrong. They have an allegedly RF1 plate at 1.8lb and 0.7" thick.>The M193 and MSC are generally not a problem and the plate could be much thinnerVelSys does have a sub-0.4" covert plate called the VS-PXULV rated for just 7.62x39 MSC, but it's an ICW.Ace Link does also have a 1.87lb, 0.56" thick 7.62x39 MSC plate, but that's exclusively MSC and no M80, so that does also support the "foam" contention.
>>65636430>>65636443That's what I was afraid of, that we're going to see serious reductions in Chinese export PE quality/strength to the point where low-QC "budget" plates will be even more suspect than they are now. People will be thinking they're getting deals when they're really in serious risk of getting penetrated/over-BFD'd by threats at or even below the plate's listed rating. That and the recent rumors of UV-stabilized Zylon possibly entering the Chinese armor supply chain make things even more risky, although the average "I just bought cheap plates from [insert sketchy Ebay store]!" bro types probably won't know until it's too late.
>>65636430>>65636443>If you ordered J300 (and you could even find a company that would back it up w/ engineering and testing data) then all I am pointing out is that there would be a substantial "motivation" to provide something less than J300 quality to avoid being discovered in the export process.So in theory, a sketchy company could send a J300 backed plate to some youtubers as part of a limited initial run, and then send J100-backed inferior models out as the actual product sold to customers. Moreover, the supplier could be sending the company J100 instead of J300 and the armor company would have no idea absent documentation.Would appear there are layers to this issue. A real problem for Militech. Would perhaps explain why they have refused to get NIJ compliant for a decade.Curious how Longfri is able to keep the chinese LON-III-P above board then.
>>65636456Longfri is vertically integrated, making their own PE in-house. They don't have to worry about contracted suppliers because they run their own PE factory with internal QC processes.
>>65636443When I day that domestic pros are using J400 --- I don't think this is the "norm" but I do think you can pay up and get it (it's available, in other words). I can tell you that my J400 equivalent PE can come in around 1.9-2 pounds for an RF1 so any other US company able to produce that type of armor is using pretty strong stuff.
>>65636467That makes sense especially from how I think the NIJ would look at the problem. That makes sourcing and tracing easier.Now to figure out why China struggles to get into boron carbide. Really, they'd be able to flip sub-5lb IVs for days if they had that available. LiTai has B4C plates, but nothing readily available CONUS.>>65636471Then that's probably comparable to the stuff used in Hesco's RF1 version of the 3801, and used as a backer in their 3811, along with Highcom's new RF2 3S22M.>I can tell you that my J400 equivalent PE can come in around 1.9-2 pounds for an RF1So half a pound off the Helion? That's not bad at all.
>>65636467You can import sub 40 (J400) fiber and process it. But the "good stuff" is prohibited from export (to my knowledge) via Announcement 21 of Chinese military export rules. Article 8 specifically requires a designated military exporter and End User Certificate. We have witnessed an increase in prosecution lately from Chinese authorities in the body armor materials realm which is coupled with the heightened crackdown on VPN restrictions... which facilitates monitoring about the issue by the government. I don't like the future prospects in that space. Gotta run now. See you all.
>>65636509Thanks for the info as always. That's worth keeping in mind for anyone looking into Chinese or suspected Chinese plates for sure.
Also the guy with the cheapo MSA plates also has a pair of Level IV MSA sides for a benjamin. 6x8s.https://www.ebay.com/itm/407344630387Not bad versus $320 for a pair of 4100s.
>>65636394Interesting, will eye it. It is tempting. So far I am really digging these helions. Adept plates do look fancy. I need to spend some time better acquainting myself with the players. Leaning heavy on the PE but some of those fragile thin plates could be tempting assuming the mailman doesn’t fuck them up
>>65636542Just saying, those MSAs are gonna move quick at that price.>Adept plates do look fancy.Adept is basically if an armor autist ran an armor company. They don't make generalist plates, they make plates for specific niche use cases to address holes left by other players. My only issue with them is lack of NIJ cert and nominal sizing. Both Archon and Colossus are nominally sized and would be considerably heavier if "trued." Emperor is true 10x12 but $3k a set is a bit rich when Hesco 4800s are $2.2k or so.Mantis is neat but I wanna see BFD on the new M855A1 version. Gen1 version was 40mm versus M855.>assuming the mailman doesn’t fuck them upReally depends on the packaging too. Always worth keeping in mind people got by from 1971 to 2007 with no drop protection requirements in the standard, although I wonder how many field failures lost to time are a result of compromised armor.
>>65636494Helion is very strong PE. Those are out of stock. Helions were 2.5 pounds but overbuilt. We sold them to make way for a Gen 2 version that uses the same PE but thinner (did the R&D). The 2.5s are heavier and that's the only reason they were so affordable. The 2 pound versions would be $300-$350 each and we do plan to bring those along in 2027. All of this stuff can unfortunately be "smoke and mirrors" when it comes to weight. Take a full 10" x 12" SAPI that weighs 2.2 pounds (100% PE and I am generalizing here). If the manufacturer wants a 1.9 pound plate instead, they just remove 3-4mm from the periphery and cut the upper chamfers more aggressively -- nip off the lower corners for even more reduction. I personally like a slight foam 2-3mm outer strip (not a cheat ring... a protective edge) on a PE plate because PE can ding hard and damage the covers when dropped. So, it's not "always" that the manufacturer is trying to cover something up (sometimes it is)... but what IS true --- is that we (in the industry) need to do a better job at drawing out exactly how the plate is put together so that customer can see the extent of the ceramic / PE coverage, the protective edging, the wear and/or strike face foam) so that they can understand what they are buying and compare it to other products for the best fit or purpose. Sorry to hog the board - outta here for now.
>>65636589>The 2 pound versions would be $300-$350 each and we do plan to bring those along in 2027. That sounds pretty good!
New from Brotach. 36" wooden riot batons for $15 a pop.https://surplus.botach.com/law-enforcement-36-hardwood-riot-baton-police-trade/
>>65636589I would be very interested in those. I love my helions. Could we expect similar thickness?
>>65636509If I'm reading you right, older, less advanced PE plates like the LON-III-P might still get a pass, but nothing thinner/lighter, and even with old tech there's still a chance of Chinese suppliers getting grabbed by MSS agents if they gin on that it's for "unathorized" armor use.>>65636589Don't feel bad about using this space. Your input is a lot better than any of the usual trolling that goes on here.
>>65636450Between this and the PE crackdown the Chinese armor scene just got at least ten times sketchier, and with that the low end of the civvie armor market got even worse. We're gonna have to be at least a little wary of any potentially Chinese-origin plate lighter than the LON-III-P going forwards, won't we?
>>65636895You can get switched with more than just Chinese armor. Anything off the CPL is liable to have random spec changes. See how RMA randomly upped and decided their SRT is no longer good for 7.62x51mm M80. No change in areal density, just a sizing difference... supposedly. See also how Highcom changed the 4S16 randomly, there's RMA changed the strike face on the 1192, the Adept Colossus lost its Vectran layer a few years ago, etc. Basically, if you want proven consistency, you gotta come back full circle to the NIJ compliant product list.Chinese or domestic, armor has and will always be a comically shady industry where specs, including what materials are used and their qualities, can change on a whim and nobody will ever know.There's a reason why Buffman has a "this video only pertains to the samples tested" disclaimer in every single video description.
>>65636930Yeah, I know. But it's still a very bad sign and a signal that things are getting worse. NIJ/milsurp or bust now.
>>65636952>NIJ/milsurp or bust now.I don't think it's that bad. You're dooming. That rule would require shitlisting plates like the Hesco 4800. There's plenty of reputable off-CPL plates. Stick with proven brands. Fly-by-night chinesium is just off the table. IMHO, not a huge issue.Copsurp steals most of the fire anyhow.
are the pelican backpacks worth the price at all?
>>65637031>pelican backpacks>$300What can it do for you that a five dollar backpack from goodwill can't, besides larp?
>>65637057isnt larping the point of most /k/ threads?
>>65637061cop the taobao version for $35 cuh
NEW: >>65637054NEW: >>65637054NEW: >>65637054NEW: >>65637054
>>65637072>cranston>cranes>ton
>>65637117gonna need a lincoln bar just to pry his azz off the couch
