>think about male features
>feel sad
>think about having female features
>feel happy
>think about people calling me a man and treating me like one
>feel bad
>think about people calling me a woman and treating me like one
>feel good
idk how you're struggling with this

>>40960629
So it's not like a distinct sense that you are a woman but something you infer from your emotional relationship to gender? This isn't like a gotcha or anything, I'm asking this stuff mostly because it tickles my particular autism

personally I've always wanted to be a woman, and I'm like women in a lot of ways and unlike men in a lot of ways. I've always fit in better with women

i'm not like other girls. not even like other dykes. i'm unlike most cis men and trans men too. also my body brings me distress. the idea of my body but more masculine makes me happy.

>>40960678
Yeah for most trans woman. The I feel like a woman thing is just a simplification for cis people.

at puberty, my body made me deeply uncomfortable before anyone else even knew it was happening to comment. I constantly fantasized about shaving off fat deposits, how weird my skin felt, etc. felt like being in a gross soft marshmallow suit. chunks of organ and blood everywhere. dissociating in the shower.

I had a persistent sense of wrongness in gendered spaces. As in, I shouldn't be here in this locker room with girls. I don't belong here, someone is going to bust in and get me in trouble.

likewise, a feeling of being one among boys. when I compare myself to others, most of the time it's boys. if we are separated in class, feeling I should be over there with boys.

feeling of odd vague jealousy and despair when looking at boys my age, especially noticing them getting taller, voice changes, and weirder stuff like leg and forearm hair. doodling parts I was jealous of.

constantly drawing male characters as a self-insert, choosing male avatars online and in games. sketching men who looked like me and not knowing why.

recurring dreams in which I was accused of being a boy and lying to everyone about it.

I'm sure there's others. eventually I tried to transition and immediately felt better psychologically and it felt like I was melting off all the shit I didn't want.

>>40960973
>We just lie to cis people about this stuff and then are surprised when they think we're making it up

>>40963653
>simplifying is lying

>>40963653
bitch are you retarded, what do you expect physical dysphoria to feel like
I'm a cishet straggot and even I have enough brains to understand this

>>40960629
>>think about black features
>>feel sad
>>think about having white features
>>feel happy
>>think about people calling me a n****r and treating me like one
>>feel bad
>>think about people calling me a white and treating me like one
>>feel good

Have you considered that maybe it's just internalized misandry? And the language doesn't exist and is actively repressed by normies to talk about it? Maybe you're just sick of being the disposable and monstrous abuser-class sex.

>>40963997
men aren't treated worse than women though, being called a man isn't comparable to being called a nigger
also you don't have to censor yourself this is 4chan

>>40960593
I just am, it’s actually not that deep. It’s so self evident and true that the idea of justifying or explaining it seems kind of absurd

>>40960593
im not sure if i have a subjective experience that tells me that. i have a lot of negative feelings about my birth gender that align with how other trans people feel and thats what informs me.

File: 1000013634.jpg (197 KB, 951x712)

197 KB JPG

>>40964374
Yeah, but I want to censor myself. I don't know why. And men are 100% treated worse than women. Our sexual value is nill, and we're told we're lucky for having no sexual value and not being "objectified." Women and children come first in emergencies. A man is valued for his job and what he can provide, rather than inherently like how women are. Women get DEI and get called back for jobs more often to fulfill diversity requirements. Women aren't as often targets of violent crime as men are, yet nobody cares to tell men not to go out at night because they're men. Homeless shelters and other social resources are set up to prioritize women first before men. We make apps like the Tea app specifically for gossoping and doxing men, which requires you to verify your gender before even being able to view what lies have been spread onto you. Men are viewed as creepy and unsafe by default and are biased against in courts. Heteronormative relationship dynamics with the opposite sex are insane because women have access to millions of men whenever they want who all want her and are willing to literally be her slave or are the size and appearance of Chad Thundercock. Men have worse health, live shorter lives, worse social situations, get worse education, and feel the need to commit suicide way more often, and to rub salt in the wound, you personally are the one who's supposed to shoulder that weight or else you're either a faggot or not man enough.

>>40964653
yeah, many men are victimized by the patriarchy. hierarchies suck for everyone who isn't at the absolute top.
women as a whole still have it worse then men as a whole, and manhood is not a vulnerability in our society

>>40960593
Nothing
I’m not real
This is a ghost typing
I will disappear when you stop thinking about me

>>40960593
i don't have any internal experience and i'm transitioning as part of a strategy to increase my reproductive fitness

>>40964833
>women as a whole still have it worse then men as a whole, and manhood is not a vulnerability in our society
This is false. Men as a whole, especially young men, have it worse than women as a whole. And manhood is absolutely a vulnerability in our society. One only needs to look at the suicide statistics and the absolute state of young men. We just start at the default that men aren't worth anything and have nothing to lose, so it doesn't feel like men are vulnerable or worth protecting, and often men feel emasculated and unsafe when they admit weakness. We as a whole don't care and don't think of men that way, and men actively hide it to protect themselves and remain "manly," and men, especially old men, would rather pretend it's not happening.

>>40964950
>We just start at the default that men aren't worth anything
having value as an object to be possessed and exploited is not better than having no value but what you can earn yourself
you're fixating on your place within the hierarchy and ignoring the full situation

>>40964950
There has never been MORE focus on men’s health and making space for men to feel emotionally vulnerable, and more mental health resources. This current generation of young men is less affected by war and scarcity than previous generations. And yet men are still choosing to shoot up schools, kill themselves, annihilate their families, and turn to reactionary values. Any institutional power crushing men’s balls is wielded almost exclusively by men. Yet you still have the audacity to claim to have it worse. You aren’t victims, you are spoiled little boys who throw violent temper tantrums when your fragile egos aren’t being coddled and catered to at all times. Time for the manchildren to grow up.

>>40960629
same but how do you know it's not just sexual arousal from euphoria

>>40964889
you have really bad instincts lol

>>40963997
This

>>40960593
redpill me on houseplants and honey. clouds are obvious when you experience it. patterns not hard either.

>>40965000
>having value as an object to be possessed and exploited is not better than having no value but what you can earn yourself
>you're fixating on your place within the hierarchy and ignoring the full situation
Literally that's all of value though. Name one valuable thing that isn't valuable because it can be "exploited" and possessed. There's nothing.

>>40965004
>There has never been MORE focus on men’s health
That's not a very high bar you've set.

>This current generation of young men is less affected by war and scarcity than previous generations.
Yet we're killing ourselves at a higher rate than previous generations, and we can't afford housing or get jobs or get relationships.
>And yet men are still choosing to shoot up schools, kill themselves, annihilate their families, and turn to reactionary values
"Reactionary values" is such a vile manipulative term. You think that any problems men have is just a reaction to feminism and thus can be discarded as regressive. Further, why do you suppose men would be doing that stuff if things were so great for them?
>Any institutional power crushing men’s balls is wielded almost exclusively by men.
It's not. Women dominate men in many fields like education and in child rearing and in schools. And much of that power held by men used to crush men's balls is FOR women.
>Yet you still have the audacity to claim to have it worse.
The audacity is yours for doing the same shit.
>You aren’t victims, you are spoiled little boys who throw violent temper tantrums when your fragile egos aren’t being coddled and catered to at all times.
>Time for the manchildren to grow up.
1. "Manchild" is hatespeech by definition. 2. I've seen this fucking rhetoric thrown around all the time where you try and deny men's pain by denying our manhood in the first place. You call us "boys"not unlike the way white ancestors used to call black ancestors "boys" as a way of denying their manhood and justify racism. It's fucked up.

>>40965397
>reeeee calling us manchildren is hatespeech
Lmao

>>40965443
Hate speech:
>abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice on the basis of ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, or similar grounds.

Sex is similar grounds. It's not just that you're a child or imature. It's that you're a man-child. I just thought I would let you know. Nothing wrong with using hate speech on 4chan, but I get the sense that you don't really think you're using it or being hateful and scummy.

>>40965397
>Name one valuable thing that isn't valuable because it can be "exploited" and possessed
??? are you genuinely insane? human life has value on it's own. irrespective of it's ability to produce value

>>40965470
>??? are you genuinely insane? human life has value on it's own. irrespective of it's ability to produce value
Is a human life not possessed by its owner? Is a human life not inherently productive of value via its exploitation and presence? Because last time I checked, you own your own life and businesses would love if they could enslave any part of you because you produce so much value. Even just data on your attention or location is worth its weight in gold, not even accounting for your gender. You also can exploit yourself and sell yourself to your hearts content to get what you want from the world. Nobody is stopping you.

So, human life definitely can be exploited and possessed, and that's what makes it valuable. Give me a better counter example.

>>40965466
Telling you that your perspective is immature and entitled is not hatespeech. You are so eager to be a victim and have experience so little strife due to your sex that you have to stretch a term like this far past its applicable limit. Like a spoiled manchild. This is why most people, including most men, do not take your views seriously.

>>40965652
>So, human life definitely can be exploited and possessed
yes
>that's what makes it valuable
no, the value exists independent of it's exploitation or suppression. a human has value independent of the judgement of the society they live in. every human being is valuable.

>>40965323
Nta, but the way I know is that I have experienced sexual arousal before, and my feelings about gender aren't related to that at all.

>>40965655
>Telling you that your perspective is immature and entitled is not hatespeech.
No, but telling me I'm a man-child is.
>You are so eager to be a victim and have experience so little strife due to your sex that you have to stretch a term like this far past its applicable limit.
It's not a stretch. Hate speech as a term was not invented by feminists. And I'm not just talking about myself. My life is actually managable thanks to my parents. I look outward and am sad at what I see and all the friends I've seen degraded where I'm the only one who's actually willing to lend an ear for them sometimes, and even then I'm considered gay or something and it never happens for me.
>Like a spoiled manchild. This is why most people, including most men, do not take your views seriously.
Most men take my views seriously. They just don't care because it's not how a man "should" act. Much of political masculinity(shocker) is a protective mask rather than the real deal, which is always more nuanced and individual.

Remember, these are people to me, not just man-child neckbeards. You might get to look at them and think of them as less than human for being physically different from you but I can't do that for obvious reasons.

>>40965685
>no, the value exists independent of it's exploitation or suppression. a human has value independent of the judgement of the society they live in. every human being is valuable.
A human who could not be exploited wouldn't be human at all. If you had no control over your own body and did not possess it and your body had no control over you and did not possess you, I'd hardly consider whatever that pile of flesh remaining is to be you. You'd essentially be a vegetable, unable to think, to feel or exist, or be conscious. I could hardly consider that a life, let alone a human one.

It's kind of a mind fuck in the first place to imagine an existence free of any potential for exploitation and ownership. It doesn't make sense. You're dipping into 20000 gram mushroom trip or extreme meditation destruction of self territory.

>>40965808
how

>>40965927
fuck off, disabled people don't lose a portion of their humanity!

>>40960629
How do I figure this out if I've been dissociated from my own emotions for basically my whole life, making it impossible to feel anything but complete emptiness and apathy?
I would rather be a woman and not a man, but I feel nothing at the idea

>>40960593
this shit is all a dodge by trannies.
it's literally just, do I want to look like a woman? do i want to have tits and be fuckable? yes. that's what makes me a tranny.

>>40966025
i've definitely been there, what broke me out of it was getting suicidal to the point of making plans and taking action. i realized i clearly didn't feel apathy, i was lying to myself to pretend i wasn't hurting.
i don't think that's very healthy though, for obvious reasons. it's probably better to explore more positive potential emotions wrt gender. that is, try getting people to treat you as a girl or have a more feminine presentation and see how you react. try to identify the source of your reactions as well, feeling shame over looking bad isn't proof that what you're feeling isn't gender dysphoria.

>>40966077
yeah being trans is more about your objective reality than subjective experience
if you're living with the appearance of other sex and taking hormones artificially you're trans no matter what you feel

>>40966104
>what broke me out of it was getting suicidal to the point of making plans and taking action
Definitely been there, multiple times. Also constantly passively suicidal since around the beginning of puberty. Never made any connection to gender until 20 though, which makes me doubt it.
>i was lying to myself to pretend i wasn't hurting.
I might be doing this, but I can't tell. Can't discern what's real and what's not anymore.
>explore more positive potential emotions wrt gender
>explore more positive potential emotions wrt gender
I've tried, but it's been a fruitless endeavor. The only reason I'm even considered this to begin with is because of a dream I had about a year ago where I was a woman and felt alive in a way I never did before.
>that is, try getting people to treat you as a girl or have a more feminine presentation and see how you react
Feels horrible, but only because I'm aware of how much of a man I actually am. Can't tell whether that's dysphoria though, or me not liking a feminine presentation

>>40966024
>fuck off, disabled people don't lose a portion of their humanity!
They lose a small portion. But think carefully about what the most exploitable part of a human is. Is it their bodies? Or is it their minds dealing with the pain inflicted via their bodies? I'd say what makes us exploitable is more what goes on inside our heads than our legs or hands or even our eyes. anything, disabled people are even more exploitable and possessable and thus valuable in some ways. Otherwise, rapists would just buy flesh-like replicas because it's easier. Otherwise, nobody would fall genuinely in love with disabled people. What makes us human and valuable(and thus vulnerable) happens inside our minds mostly.

I will conceed that value doesn't mean much if you can't own yourself or find a good owner. But it's the 21st century. Even if women didn't have rights(and they do), they'd have men fighting over women online constantly presuming you're not in bumfuck nowhere like the middle east. Historically, where there is patriarchal power, a woman is oppressed to the degree she can't get thousands of men fighting over her. Women getting rights was kind of an inevitability with the advance of communacative technology.

>>40960593
It was so long ago that I no longer recall. I wish I did, and I certainly prefer to live life this way compared to falling into degenerate Faragism, but a part of me does wonder what life I would lived had my parents done my due diligence and didn't give me unrestricted internet access that told me that being trans was indeed possible from a young age.

i probably still would have changed my name though, but i imagine i would have had a better relationship with my family and would probably have gone onto university and focused on my studies instead of having to spend a large part of my time justifying my own existence and fighting an entangled web of pointless bureaucratic battles just to be me

i would probably be a better person than I am now - if only a bit sadder and confused as to how I always end up making friends with women. would i rather be depressed and dysphoric or depressed and female? its an odd question and desu i don't think even i know the answer.

i occasionally get depressive spouts of intense regret of transitioning but i just shut it out of my brain, as i vaguely recall failing to do with being transsexual in the first place

>>40960678
is pain an emotion?

>>40966307
>Never made any connection to gender until 20
that's when i consciously voiced the thought for the first time too, minus a few months. i've been on hormones since i was 22, currently about to turn 28. no regrets except not starting sooner.
>but it's been a fruitless endeavor
do you mean you have no opportunities to present any more feminine in a social context, and no social life or friends to change their pronoun use? or do you mean you've felt nothing positive, not even a glimmer when you have done those things?
>Can't tell whether that's dysphoria though, or me not liking a feminine presentation
ah. yeah. i know what you mean. asking people to call you something you know you're not doesn't make it feel better when they respect it. it feels like being indulged.
are you on hormones at all? or have you just experimented with words and clothes?

>>40966728
>that's when i consciously voiced the thought for the first time too, minus a few months
Had my dream just a couple months short of turning 20, but it took a while until I realized I probably do desire to be a woman. After that realization, it only took one month until I bought diy hrt.
>are you on hormones at all? or have you just experimented with words and clothes?
I've took hrt for about 3 months and felt nothing. The anxiety that came from the fear of regretting it later, because I still wasn't (and still am not) certain whether this desire is intrinsic to me. I'm afraid I'd live a better a life as a man despite not really wanting it over living as a trans woman. I've experiment a bit with words and clothes, but it all felt very arbitrary to me. Wearing women's clothes while having a male body is akin to body horror for me though.
>do you mean you have no opportunities to present any more feminine in a social context, and no social life or friends to change their pronoun use? or do you mean you've felt nothing positive, not even a glimmer when you have done those things?
Both. I lack opportunities, but the few I got didn't make me feel a thing. I hoped they would, but I didn't expect anything else. If anything, I've felt even more like a skinwalker trying it.
>it feels like being indulged
Exactly this. I hate this feeling with a burning passion

>>40965956
What do you mean, how? Are you really unable to conceive of emotional experiences that don't relate to sex?

>>40967832
yeah there are emotional experiences without sex but sex is always full of some emotional component