I already think of transwomen as third gender
no NBism required

>>41026782
Most AGPs don't seem to transition, and repress for their entire lives, if they weren't socialized to suppress their desire to be feminine, and were allowed an alternative gender role, I think most wouldn't have so much social inertia forcing them to repress.

>>41026803
Well billionaires and this site including do everything they can against that

it’s called being a creepy dude

descriptively, males are men and females are women. when you start talking about 'should' this or 'shouldn't' that, you're talking about proscriptions and ethics. I would be curious to hear what grounds your ethics, but I suspect it's just muh feels.

>>41027042
I know you're referencing the is/ought disctinction.
I'll be clear, I'm not making an objective ethical claim, I'm not really making a prescriptive claim, but rather speaking shorthand for the descriptive "AGP males would likely be happier if they could adopt a gender role that allows them to be feminized males in a socially acceptable manner."

>>41027055
few would disagree, but this would never reach large-scale acceptance as people would have to consciously promote or be complicit in an explicit sexual fetish. just keep it in the bedroom.

>>41027071
You can fix this by making clear that AGP is a sexual orientation, not a fetish.
Homosexuality was once perceived as a perversion and a disease, and while some people still hold that view, most do not.

>>41027089
>You can fix this by making clear that AGP is a sexual orientation, not a fetish.
you could try, and call me cynical, but I don't think that'd ever work - again, certainly not on a large(r) scale. the major hurdle is that most people don't believe in a third sex, so it gets placed somewhere between hetereosexuality, homosexuality, and bisexuality. I just don't think you'll ever get people to naturally put a sexuality in a different framework unless we discover another sex (and even then, unless AGP happened to map on to that sex, it would still be considered within the traditional spectrum).

>>41027115
People wrapped their heads around sexual orientation, I don't see why they couldn't do the same here.

>>41027150
>People wrapped their heads around sexual orientation
I'm not sure what you mean. you seem to be making a distinction between sexuality and sexual orientation: are you, and what is the distinction?

>>41027162
Sort of, almost everyone has a sexuality, sexual orientation is just the direction it points. That idea was not widely accepted until relatively recently, that one could just have it pointed towards the same sex and that be totally fine, or pointed towards both sexes, etc.
Its not that much of a leap to say that it can also point inwards.

>>41027182
>that one could just have it pointed towards the same sex and that be totally fine
>and that be totally fine
if you mean morally, this is where I think there's a misunderstanding. descriptively, people, whether it's a "corruption" or whatever, have always seemed to believe that you can be attracted to the same sex or either sex. also descriptively, I don't think people disagree that it's possible for someone to be internally attracted, it's just that because they (understandably) think that this person is either a male or a female, it would still fall within the sexuality spectrum of heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality. but also the vast majority of people are not sexually attracted to themselves (though these same people may be prideful and arrogant about their attractiveness). so 1. it's virtually always going to be considered weird/a fetish, and 2. it's going to be looked at from the standard sexual spectrum.

>>41027253
I think the issue is this:
Most people who push the view that gender != sex go way too far with the concept, for example saying that someone who is male and identifies as a woman, but has not undergone any feminizing therapies whatsoever, is a woman. Obviously, BS like this is off putting to normalfags.
There is however, a more reasonable position that holds that sex != gender, that gender refers to social role, rather than personal identity, and that socially, you can make room for feminized, gynephilic males. Many societies have done so in the past, for example Rome, with the Galli.

>>41027286
>There is however, a more reasonable position that holds that sex != gender, that gender refers to social role, rather than personal identity, and that socially, you can make room for feminized, gynephilic males. Many societies have done so in the past, for example Rome, with the Galli.
well whether or not defining gender separately from sex gets into prescriptivism, and I'm not a prescriptivist. still today most people do, and for the longest time, again, sex has been interchangeable with gender. using gender to abstract social roles from the term man or woman is a modern and niche (academic) philosophy. while there were, and will always, people who don't perfectly fit the norm, there has been a varying degree of acceptance of non-stereotypical men and women (tomboys, for example). the point being we can hypothetically make room for non-stereotypical people without saying sex != gender: there's a difference between categorical distinctions idealism.

and I don't think the Galli is a good example. I'd be curious to know your sources/references, but from what I know their exact roles in society are still debated - given Roman perceptions of the "receiver" in same-sex acts - but that their eunuchism (let's say) was more religious than sexual.

>>41027385
apologies for the shitty grammar (didn't proofread).

>>41027385
>using gender to abstract social roles from the term man or woman is a modern and niche (academic) philosophy
Its not that niche, its been the politically correct view for years now, its just that iteration is wrong.

>and I don't think the Galli is a good example. I'd be curious to know your sources/references, but from what I know their exact roles in society are still debated
The Galli followed Attis, who was in mythology gynephilic. Attis fell in love with Cybele and was arranged in marriage to someone else, at the wedding ceremony, Cybele appeared and Attis went mad and castrated himself.
This is difficult to source because the material is hundreds of years old, but if you look it up you'll find it, try Ovid or Pausanias.

>>41027477
>Its not that niche, its been the politically correct view for years now, its just that iteration is wrong.
I would disagree. it really only got more mainstream in the past 10-15 years or so. but even in the West where it is accepted the most most people still fundamentally tie being a man or a woman with material reality - and biology more specifically - and don't think there's anything other than men and women - at least naturally (intersex, for example). even among left-leaning people there's a divide on the issue. so historically and globally it's pretty niche.
>The Galli followed Attis, who was in mythology gynephilic. Attis fell in love with Cybele and was arranged in marriage to someone else, at the wedding ceremony, Cybele appeared and Attis went mad and castrated himself.
from what I'm reading Cybele is not a love interest but rather a jealous and powerful goddess. she puts Attis in a frenzy out of this jealousy and as a result he castrates himself. at any rate, something to be wary of is modernizing ancient myths which were perhaps already fluffed up by Ovid (as he was known to do) and co; when in reality these deities related to fertility or something. at the very least I don't think we know enough about the Galli and their practices, but with what we have I still don't think it's at all a fair comparison to AGPs: there's still nothing to show that what the Galli were doing wasn't mainly or exclusively for religious purposes and not about their sexual orientation.

>>41027588
Okay, I may have made a mistake in bringing up Galli, they could have been largely autogynephilic, but I can't know for sure. However, the existence of male third gender roles does show that the idea of an AGP third gender isn't impossible.

Still, it seems the disagreement we have here is not that it wouldn't help AGPs, but rather you think its implausible?

>>41027849
>Still, it seems the disagreement we have here is not that it wouldn't help AGPs, but rather you think its implausible?
I mean I have issues with the "third male gender role" thing, but for the most part yeah: I think it would "help" them in that they would feel more accepted in wider society, but I'd say it's effectively impossible on a medium to large scale.

>>41027974
I won't deny its difficult, one point you could sell people on is that it would lead to a whole lot less John, 50 situations where they leave behind a broken family.
Since AGPs would naturally fall into this third gender, they wouldn't repress for so long, and women could tell what they're dealing with.

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>tfw don't wanna troon cause it creates more problems than it solves and feeling like can't live as a man either
>ohh woe is me i'm such a helpless little woman spirit

>>41029130
You're not a woman spirit, you were just born with a bootloader for femininity that society pressures you into not using.

>>41029255
why does this bootloader have a problem with my male drivers that are already loaded i'm already booted and i'm not rebooting anytime soon doubt you could after you shutdown

>>41029341
You need to install a compatibility patch to the male drivers.