Context:

— “This ridiculous article (shame on the once-great Scientific American) ignorantly misunderstands the nature of the sex binary. … Sex is not defined by chromosomes, nor by anatomy, nor by psychology or sociology, nor by personal inclination, nor by “assignment at birth”, but by gamete size. It happens to be embryologically DETERMINED by chromosomes in mammals. … But it is universally DEFINED by the binary distinction between sperms and eggs. You may argue about “gender” if you wish (biologists have better things to do) but sex is a true binary, one of rather few in biology.”

Article in question: https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

>>41047982
I guess if I don’t produce gametes I am biologically asexual then
kinda cool desu

Dawkins is retarded.

>>41047979
>br*tish

>>41047979
>this person is educated and renowned in one field therefore he is an infallible genius in all areas of medicine, psychology, psychiatry and philosophy and quite possibly rocket science and Mongolian basket weaving as well
why are redditors the way they are

>>41047979
> reeeeee christianity is bad reeee
I just want to hold a cute christian boys hand and get married to him and then top him. I pray every night

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>>41047979
it doesnt matter if its a lie or not. if you stealth you presumably will be allowed wherever you please. if you dont wanna do that, tough luck buddy everyone sees us as a biomale trap or as just-a-fag anwyays

>>41047993
Well, no, biological development is meant for the purpose of creating gametes for further development. Life is meant to propagate. You’re objectively leaning to one side or the other, even if it’s barely noticeable. The developing of males and females are actually mutually exclusive, or antagonistic, to each other. There’s no such thing as a truly asexual, or a truly hermaphroditic, human being.

At its simplest sex is defined by gametes purely going by life’s goal. I don’t know why anyone would, or could, argue this.

>>41047982
i mean this just seems like a reasonable take and is a strong scientific definition of sex.
since some fish and reptiles can change their sex by this definition, but not their sex chromosomes (if they even have those at all)

final judgement: Dawkins is based and picrel is retarded

Trannies joined the atheist movement thinking the science was on their side when it actually wasn’t kek

They’re no different from deluded Christians themselves. The Science™ is a literal cult.

>>41048120
Theyre mentally ill and dont wanna be gay.

>>41047979
Transgenderism is a religion.

>>41048134
>>41048143
Don’t you just love how humans can’t detect parallels because of the different shapes they take? “Religion is dead? The Science has won!” is so fucking ironic it’s comically atrocious.

>>41048117
ok five of you faggots replied but somehow ignored me. why does it matter if we're real or not?

>>41048149
Modern day science is indistinguishable from wizardry and any perceived dissent against it is indistinguishable from black magic, or witchcraft. Just speaking the truth is a form of sorcery now.

>>41047979
Bozo thread all around, sad to see
Le rational scientists in the room should know that definitions vary depending on the field you're applying the word in

>>41048173
>well, ACKCHYUALLY, half of the scientific community doesn’t actually AGREE on what sex is, therefore I can believe whatever the hell I want
You’re a part of the problem. That half of the scientific community is a part of the problem.

Gender is by default derived from sex. It is synonymous. Pretending it’s not is just dishonest. Without sex there would be no gender identity, because that’s all it is, an expression of sex. To the average bloke on the side of the road, sex and gender mean the same damn thing.

>>41048201
>br*tish

>>41048212
Bollocks.

I don’t hate transsexuals inherently but I do hate that they’ve collectively held the human race back by decades. They’ve single-handedly lowered the global IQ. They’ve single-handedly destroyed what failing education we already had.

>>41048152
not one of the repliers but i agree. who cares? if you're going to live you might as well be happy.
>>41048201
>To the average bloke on the side of the road
does the average bloke not understanding the precise mechanisms of gravity mean that gravity does not exist? i understand this is sort of a tired argument by now, but it's still legitimate. things are often more complicated than we like to see them. at any rate it doesn't matter bc whether i'm really a woman or not, i live my life as if i were and nobody cares or even knows that it's Not Really True or whatever

who fucking cares, man... if you wanna get the dick inverted just get your dick inverted, whatever...

>>41047979
Dawkins was wrong about Christianity.
He's wrong about this too.

>>41047982
And I can immediately see he's up to his old trick of persuasively arguing around pure induction. He begins with his conclusion:

gender is uncomplicated and simple
or
The gospels are fiction

Then works on an inductive proof whereby he can establish a syllogism with a know truth.

gamete size differs in disexual animals.
or
religion has been used by corrupt and unscupulous people for personal ends

and then establishes as his second premise that there are no contravening facts.

There are no asexual, trisexual, or polysexual species. Species cannot change gender. There are absolutely no other considerations here.
or
there are no historical, archeological, or cultural evidences that are even worth considering because religion lied once.

He doesn't actually make the second premise of the syllogism, he just uses persuasive writing to convince you it's unimportant.
>universally DEFINED
By literally fucking no one of consequence. That's not in a disctionary, that's not in a biological textbook, that's not in a gender studies textbook, that's not written anywhere except where people want to disprove that intersex and gender diverse people aren't real. That's it.

But if you question it they'll call you stupid.
>There's no evidence God exists
except for all the evidence
>There's no evidence transgender people are the gender they say they are
except for all the evidence.

I'm so glad I was the one who was able to break you of this spell.

>>41048265
Anon some languages don’t even have a gender equivalent. You just identify as a woman/female.

>>41048183
You're still clinging to the notion that words have fixed objective truths behind them instead of things we use to communicate ideas. You're the problem.

>>41048274
>bibble fucker out of nowhere

No one cares about your kike on a stick cult.

>>41048288
There are objective truths out there, moron. Words don’t erase truths. Gender is literally just sex identity.

Why did everyone suddenly chud out?

>>41048168
Most of science is solid and produces the results to back it up. It's at the margins of where science and culture intersect where quackery thrives. Meanwhile religion is obscurantist navel gazing from top to bottom.

>>41048332
Sure, whatever you believe about objective truth is fine but regardless, words can only point to them. Gender as sex identity is fine in some contexts but not others

>>41047982
This is such a pure scientific take and completely detached from the usual arguments about gender that I admire it, even being a tranny myself. I wouldn't really have a problem if sex was reduced to something like this and people would actively work toward reducing the endless man v woman wars across the board.

>>41047982
oh then no that's actually an embarrassingly terrible understanding of sex for a biologist to have. sex is based on 2 factors genotypical sex and phenotypical sex, your phenotypical sex can be mixed or not align with genotypical sex making you intersex but genotypical sex is consistent, we classify it this way as not all of us produce gametes such as cases of turners or swyers syndrome.


in conclusion biologically trannies are intersex after HRT so if his idea was to classify us as a third thing then that would be fine if his worldview is so narrow to only focus on biology, but I think that is also stupid as the reason we have these multiple fields of study like sociology and psychology which say trannies are women is to understand our world better

>>41048433
>Gender as sex identity is fine in some contexts but not others
In contexts where it’s “fine” it only serves to confuse and obfuscate. It complicates things unnecessarily. It leads to arguing.

>>41047979
>>41047982
His argument rests on a conception as sex that is as arbitrary as the worst "gender theory" sex definitions, the reality is that it is typically used subjectively and there are no hard society wide groups that can be accurately applied in every instance (even ignoring trannies), furthermore, applying any of the hard defined groups to societal contexts, which is what his ilk is advocating, is absurd as you will always find people who get stupidly placed in what is obviously the wrong group out of principal, again, even ignoring trans people.

It's ultimately the same as the anti gay arguments appealing to the scientific conception of sexual relationships, as if it was a) a hard coded thing that can be cleanly determined to be purely heterosexual or b) a principal by which we should be organising society around despite the actual way society functioned where gay people exist not fitting into those simplistic notions.

Dawkins would likely be parroting that born a few years later. I suppose it's a symptom of the anti religious arguments where everything could be seperated into wishwashy beliefs vs hard science, which worked at the time but has led him into essentially denying the existance of social and neuro sciences and any groups those sciences say exist because they feel too soft and "religious-y" vs his biodeterministic simplistic worldview.

>>41048493
it's actually very unscientific framed through a lens to try to sound smarter or a great misunderstanding of the science at the very least I explained here
>>41048502

>>41047979
lol believing in science when knowing we were made of semen and cabbage, absolute retard

>>41048512
Lolok

>>41048512
>muh phenotypes

>>41048512
I don't really see how that contradicts his view, or what I like about it. Genotypical and phentoypical aren't really "factors" of sex but the different perspectives through which sex can be determined in an investigation of a given organism. The concept of sex as the type of gamete production within a sexually reproducing species isn't affected by these real complications. The main gist is that it is a biologically strucutured binary (not a spectrum or boundless multiplicity) with a specific function

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>>41048321

>>41048572
>The main gist is that it is a biologically strucutured binary (not a spectrum or boundless multiplicity) with a specific function
the reason we classify sex differently to this in modern biological study is because you can't have a binary with things that fall outside it, if the necessary condition is unable to be met such as those instances or multiple conditions of agenesis such as testicular agenesis in males it is no longer a binary based on that factor as you would not be able to classify everything into that

>>41048279
well, yeah, i guess, but cultural gender and linguistic gender are separate things. i mean that i go out no matter what i'm wearing or how i present myself people refer to me as one would a woman, in English. that i've got a male reproductive system and i was raised a boy but mone of that really matters to me or anyone i talk to in the present. effectively, i am a woman.

>>41048601
>because you can't have a binary with things that fall outside it
Nothing falls outside of it. If you’re one of those people that thinks bimodal isn’t binary, then you’re sorely mistaken.

>>41048623
bimodal is definitionally not binary. binary is 2 distinct groups without overlap.

>>41047979
I have trans fatigue. I don't care what people want to call me or if I'm a woman or not as long as I can live my life for myself. And as long as random strangers don't attack me out of nowhere for no reason, I will defend myself.

>>41048601
Well if that's the modern biology then it's regressive. A binary is, say, either 1 or 0. The letter 'a' falls outside of that binary. It doesn't belong to it. The binary doesn't naturally cover it yet either 1 or 0 can be assigned to represent 'a' under some context. Similary sex is either male or female. Whatever is not male or female is not covered by the binary. The modern view is to then extend understandings of sex to cover things so as to maintain the basic assumption that everything and everyone is sexed. The binary view can be utilized for reducing the centrality of sex in social relations since the things that are not covered by it must be understood in a new way, in ways that are not caught up in the logic of sex.

>>41048623
btw also if we're basing it on gamete production then yes there are outliers in both lack of gamete production and ovotesticular disorder. It's not able to be a binary based on gamete production and a complete lack of the ability would fall distinctly outside that classification

>>41047979
there is no reason to listen to talking heads

>>41048671
>Well if that's the modern biology then it's regressive. A binary is, say, either 1 or 0. The letter 'a' falls outside of that binary. It doesn't belong to it.
you are arguing for exactly what the point of this method of classification is. if it's based on gamete production then we are unable to do this in multiple instances as it's too binary. The way it is classified now we can refer to people as an intersex male or female based on the factors of their phenotypical and genotypical sex and which they most align with.

>>41048699
>The way it is classified now we can refer to people as an intersex male or female based on the factors of their phenotypical and genotypical sex and which they most align with.
Yes this is exactly what I'm arguing against. Because, why do we do this? We have some cultural sediment around sex that forces us to class 'intersex' (as if these things are inbetweens) as either male or female, for no good scientific reason. It's an impediment.

Biologically speaking, there's no purpose for you to be gay or trans. I mean, it's a defect, a mistake, an error. Like how factories designed to pump out thousands of identicaly products will inevitably produce a few duds.

HOWEVER, I don't see why that's a reason to not like yourself. I can acknowledge that I am faulty goods, and still enjoy my life and find reasons to go on living regardless. I don't understand why you would care so much about "acceptance" or being considered "normal" anyway, to me that's weak, wanting to be part of the herd, wanting to not stick out, not have to be strong. I am an outsider, but so what?

>>41048727
well then I guess Id agree that sex is inherently a regressive classification as we understand it but I think dawkins' is much more so

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>>41047979
idk why people are still arguing over the definition of sex
the only people who get hung up on that shit are retarded, both sides of it

the real topic of debate is that if an individual wants to socially transition and be regarded as the opposite sex, should society be obligated to facilitate their decision

>>41048638
Do you not know what binary is? Bimodal has bi in the name. It’s two ends. Binary.

>>41048638
>binary is 2 distinct groups without overlap.
That’s a bimodal. Bi- means two.

>>41048921
nta but do you know what a mode is?

“They know what it is to be trans, but they can't put it into words, so they mangle definitions until it feels better.”

>>41048933
Are you just ignoring the bi- part? This is why people hate you. You’re uneducated. You can’t into semantics. You rape words.

>>41048967
>>41048932
this has to be trolling

>>41048933
A bimodal is a two point modal. Bi/binary means two. How is this so hard for you to grasp?

Bimodal means having two modes (peaks), while "binary" (in the typical sense) implies exactly two options, or points. A bimodal is binarily (this isn’t a word) based on peaks. Two peaks. Two paths.

>>41048401
Russian money

>>41048120
>>41047982
>definition spergism
making the definition in that way completely destroys its purpose in social, lawmaking, as well as majority of the medical contexts (so basically anywhere past reproduction contexts), when the purpose of a definition is to "define" a concept in a way that makes the word usable in the contexts it would usually be used
>41048120
>males and females are literally hecking different species bruh
>you HAVE to fullfill your "evolutionary purpose" and everything in your body HAS to be defined by it... because it just has to, okay?
explains why he became a christcuck again desu>>41048134>>41048143>>41048149
>>41048074
isn't something like this called the celebrity effect?
>>41048121
from what i know, it has also been observed in some birds, however for unknown currently purpose
>>41048183
>WE HAVE TO HAVE EVERYTHING OBJECTIVE AND UNWAVERING ANYONE THAT DISAGREES WITH ME HAS TO BE GOTTEN RID OF
you act in a way your kind very often accuses trannies of behaving
>>41048265
I mean, the average bloke simply remembers that gravity=thing go down in direction of the ground unless in space, which is enough for an average existence. The knowledge of "why" it happens is unneeded for them, but might be needed for somebody else
Same way why nobody past individuals particularly dealing with reproduction (humans or a different species) would be more interested in the sex definition by gametes, and how it occurs, rather than reading the secondary sexual characteristics/external genitalia and simply going with this as their reader. Neither is necessarily "wrong", both just need their information for different reasons
>>41048332
>objective truths
>gender is sex identity
that is not particularly objective, because depending on the person, even the word "gender" is used for different contexts or situations, not even talking about the reason for using it. You are just imposing your definition on everybody else, which is deeply delusional.

>>41048981
Um. No. It’s not .“This has to be trolling” is a common phrase for “I have no other argument”.

You don’t understand words. You’ve been indoctrinated to not understand words.

>>41049006
even your own justification shows these are 2 distinct concepts you're just getting tripped up by the idea they both have 2 in them?

>>41049012
>that is not particularly objective
Yes it is. You’re either born to one path or another. Anything in between is nuanced. Without sex there would be no gender in the sense of identity. One comes after the other. In a world of materialism, where everything is deconstructed or reconstructed into its base parts, or that of causality, where everything has a background to the foreground, you eventually realize this is just the case.

>>41049015
anon... I think you don't understand the terms or the original statement you replied to

>>41049023
Bi means two, anon. You’re arguing that two doesn’t mean two. God damn.

Again. This is why people hate you. You put forth the precedent that trans folk are low IQ. You’re not intelligent. You’re pure emotion based drones.

>>41049043
Now you’re pretending to be confused. Or perhaps you really are just confused?

>>41049048
anon... no one is arguing bi doesn't mean 2.... i think you're misunderstanding a lot here

>>41049058
You’re arguing two doesn’t mean two by arguing that a bimodal isn’t binary. That it isn’t based on two points, or peaks.

You’ve a bout of cognitive dissonance.

>>41049075
okay so bimodal means that there are more options but there's 2 areas which are most common, binary means that there are only 2 options. bimodal there are 2 modes, that's it. they're different concepts. you should've learned this in highschool stats class?

>>41049012
*as their definition/assignment i apologize
>>41048884
It could be useful in medical contexts, but being honest, a fully transitioned tranny (hrt, srs, all that jazz) will often have more issues relating to the transitioned sex rather than assigned sex. Both are good to know, as there are issues relating to both that can happen, but ultimately doctors will use it to fully define the tranny as assigned sex, ignoring the issues of transitioned sex, which leads to things like ignored bacterial infections in the vagina and the doctor refusing to prescribe antibiotics (which happens way more often than it should, talking with my mtf friends), ignoring early signs of breast tumours (even benign, that is basical medical malpractice) or the increased incidence of autoimmune diseases which should be taken into account
>>41048758
Honestly, the funny thing i noticed, is that high-iq autists, you know the kind that sits in science all day, gets nobel prizes, invents things - they are not particularly suitable for reproduction. Not even in social, or attractiveness sense, they are infertile/intersexish more than the average pop, as well as gay/trans. That's why i think that intelligence is somewhat of a random, self-destroying mutation, rather than something suitable to being passed down. There have been also studies showing that siblings of gay/trans/autists have higher rates of children than average, and said groups are open to childcare, but not to having children themselves. It could be something made by evolution, but simply not for making children, but for improving the conditions of human societies.

>>41047979
I mean no one is arguing that we're literally women right? I think for most it's possible to look like a woman and trick others into thinking you're one
maybe one day we can change our sex completely with technology

>>41049111
>okay so bimodal means that there are more options but there's 2 areas which are most common
No, it means there are two ends. Complexities lie within those two ends. You learn toward one end or the other. Having more than two options, or two points, wouldn’t make it bimodal.

>>41049038
>without sex there would be no gender
well yeah, I agree with that, most would agree with that, that doesn't prove that "gender=sex identity" because that's simply niggerbabble
>One comes after the other. In a world of materialism, where everything is deconstructed or reconstructed into its base parts, or that of causality, where everything has a background to the foreground, you eventually realize this is just the case.
Or realize that essentialism in many concepts is thought-killing and retarded?
Gender isn't particularly "sex identity" because "identity" is nothing past babble. To some, it would be "external perception". To others, it would be "internal perception". To a different group, it would be "neurological mapping", and often not called "gender" in the first place.

>>41049146
anon I don't think you know what "mode" means

>>41049146
You lean* toward one end or the other

>>41049012
>the average bloke...
no, this is what i mean! the exact complicated "why" of my being a woman despite being male doesn't matter; what does matter is that it is my material reality. it is literally, manifestly true, and everyone agrees with that part. it's all anybody knows or even needs to care about. just as the important thing to know about gravity is that it makes a mess of my eggs on the floor. who cares about how it affects the passage of time? who cares that i'm not exactly the same kind of woman that all the other ones are? that stuff matters to almost no-one. i think we're on the same page, here.

>>41049146
for fuck's sake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimodal_distribution
you piss off even me

le atheist science man says it bad therefore it true

>>41049153
>Gender isn't particularly "sex identity"
At its simplest? It literally is.
>>41049164
That page agrees with him. It’s left or right, you fucking idiot. There’s no third direction.

>>41048117
>if you stealth
Post literally one example

>>41049164
Okay we’re talking about a bimodal here, not a trimodal, etc.

>>41049164
anon i think you need to stop engaging with these dickheads lol

>>41049171
>because "identity" is nothing past babble
did you not read the rest of my post?
>>41049171
yes, there is, there is "middle", which in your comparison would be simply going forward, it's pointless to classify it as "very slight left" or "very slight right", that's the point of a bimodal distribution
i think we're misunderstanding each other here

>>41047982
No he was a notorious athiest grifter that’s how he made his entire name now he switched to the next trend to stay relevant

I truly believe that humans need something irrational to believe in to survive the rationality of the natural world. Otherwise they’re like a cripple without a cane.

>>41049199
>yes, there is, there is "middle”
Thats not a third direction. It’s a two dimensional graph. Are you retarded.

>>41049362
They really are that stupid anon

>>41049362
"middle" as in middle of the graph,
you're falling in the exact thought trap designed in the post
>two dimensional graph
yes, it is a twodimensional graph. How does that prove your point?
Are you trying to prove that there are only two very specific 100% to the left and 100% to the right? That's binary.
If you are saying that there are two *MAIN* paths, and there are inbetweens that don't 100% adhere, but with exception of true middle (true inbetween, exact distance from one and the other option which is pointless to classify as one or the other) are closer to one or the other, then that's bimodal
How hard is that to understand?
>>41049414
WHat are we even talking about for fuck's sake? Am i talking to a brick wall that doesn't understand English?

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>>41048650
Exactly. If you can’t handle the truth nuke of the reality of being trans then you shouldn’t transition.

I have cried until my throat is sore since childhood because I KNEW and KNOW that I am not born in the body I feel at home in. That is mental illness and unwillingness to face reality but it is how I am, it’s where I start from. I will always want to have sex with men, mate with men, nest with men and have the role of female, woman in community of women, mother, and wife. I will never truly have these things other. It is what it is. The only things I can barely manage is hormones community, expression, and sex with men. It is what it is.

I fucking hate that being trans has turned into this worldwide privilege grab for sick men who don’t even experience real dysphoria and/or want to have penetrative sex with women, and also have spent the last 15 years trying to FORCE everyone to validate them regardless of passing level. Not only that, but when someone clocks me on occasion, I’m immediately lumped in with them all.

I feel sick. I feel tired.